Questions & Mysteries Are Zoro and Ussop important for Luffy's dream?! - Had to wait for Wano to end -
- Thread starter Santoryu D Bazooka
- Start date
Thickness of the bars at Orange Town, were they stated to be steel tho? Zoro's statement was clear when he faced Mr.1, "able to cut steel". And if the Orange Town bars were steel, it means Luffy powered up until Baratie. If they weren't steel? It means Luffy powered up even more until Baratie. Not a complete assumption is it?
Tbh Hachi's broken swords vs Zoro's statement about cutting steel may be an inconsistency, but Oda didnt hype Hachi's sword material like Don Krieg armor and spear (Wootz steel, Krieg's deadliest weapon etc). All before Zoro able to cut steel by his own statement. So back to the point, beating an enemy Luffy can't beat is never Zoro's role.
Tbh Hachi's broken swords vs Zoro's statement about cutting steel may be an inconsistency, but Oda didnt hype Hachi's sword material like Don Krieg armor and spear (Wootz steel, Krieg's deadliest weapon etc). All before Zoro able to cut steel by his own statement. So back to the point, beating an enemy Luffy can't beat is never Zoro's role.
? It's an assumption. I'm not interested arbitrary semantics of "complete" vs. "incomplete" or whatever. You were responding to other peoples' assumptions with your own, so I thought it was funny.
If you're going to go the "hype" route, I don't think Wootz armor was ever implied to be anywhere near on par with Daz's DF. And even then, Luffy needed quite a few hits to take that down. That feat doesn't scale to breaking a full-steel body, just like Hachi/Arlong swords breaking doesn't scale to breaking the Wootz armor, just like cutting a steel butter knife in half doesn't scale to any of these. Those would all be assumptions.
Maybe Luffy can or can't break/beat Daz Bones but breaking Krieg's armor is not an indicator of this. It's a sus comparison.
If you're going to go the "hype" route, I don't think Wootz armor was ever implied to be anywhere near on par with Daz's DF. And even then, Luffy needed quite a few hits to take that down. That feat doesn't scale to breaking a full-steel body, just like Hachi/Arlong swords breaking doesn't scale to breaking the Wootz armor, just like cutting a steel butter knife in half doesn't scale to any of these. Those would all be assumptions.
Maybe Luffy can or can't break/beat Daz Bones but breaking Krieg's armor is not an indicator of this. It's a sus comparison.
Man read read please. My intention is not Power Scaling here what so ever. Focus this time i hope i can convey my thoughts :-
1- Throughout the story just as i mentioned in the post it looked like Zoro's struggle and training was leading into something big for him and for Luffy's Dream as a Combatant which is Wano. (It turned out its not the case)
2- In that case what is the point of a Strong Combatant that uses a Sword why is he needed for Luffy's Dream to do what?
3- All the Second Strongest right hand man have NEVER stood in Luffy's Way they were always isolated for Zoro's to beat except for Pica which was just an annoyance.
So with that in mind Oda can easily remove Zoro from the story along with these Second Strongest Right hand men and nothing will change in the story. What is then the Role Oda will give Zoro? Cut "Something? Kill "Someone"? Or something else Entirely that needs a sword?
As for the Steel Thing and Baratie. Man that is a thin Spear.. Post Time Skip Luffy couldn't break a Steel Shield while Zoro easily Cut them in Fish Man Island. G3 Luffy broke a thick Iron Door in Enies Lobby. And Only only with G4 Luffy was able to break a sheet of Steel in Wano "Udon Training" using what? Ryou the thing that allowed Zoro to Cut Daz Bones. And Please focus on what is Written above not this.
Its not about being relevant to his goal. Each and all of them have roles that is needed on the Journey there. Sanji as a cook has proved himself more capable than every Cook in an Empire of a Yonkou. Nami has proved to be an exceptional Navigator sensing the weather. Brook being able to affect others using his Soul with his DF proved that only he for now is able to be the best "Soul King". Chopper is debatable but i am sure he is going to.
But what of Zoro and Ussop? If Zoro isn't meant to cut someone for Luffy is his Sword Skill needed for something else? Is Ussop sniping actually important? Will Luffy need someone to Snipe something on their way to Laugh Tale? or Lie?
It was pretty showing for Zoro all of his build up towards Wano as a Samurai and Ryou the ability to cut anything at will. But as of now "Wano ended? not sure" it is not the case. If you were to guess something what would it be? Ussop is the big Mystery for me i cannot think of something so i am waiting for Elbaf.
Zoro can be removed from the story along with these "beat others" and nothing will change since these "others" never posed any obstacle for Luffy anyways. But Zoro is still in the Story for whatever Reason. So as a Swordman what do you think Oda wants him to do?
IQ and EQ moments means nothing for Luffy's Dream and Goal. Both Zoro and Ussop can be removed and nothing will change. But they both exist in the Story.
As a Swordman what is the role for him to play for Luffy's Goal? beating others that are not an obstacle for Luffy isn't it.
As a Sniper Lier what is therole for him to play for Luffy's Goal? sniping others that are not an obstacle for Luffy isn't it or lying for that matter.
So if you were to guess. What do you think Oda needs them for?
? You're the one saying "complete assumption" tho, while i just compare wootz steel armor with unkown material bars that is weaker to a steel armor hyped by an arc villain.
I'm not going by hype route, i'm going by character's statement about type of material. Zoro said about cutting steel by the time he faced Mr.1, meaning the previous swords he cut weren't steel, while what Luffy broke was Wootz Steel armor. You're the one saying "wootz steel armor doesn't compare to cutting full-body steel" while nothing in the manga says which one is weaker, so i think you're the one going by "hype route".
Man read read please. My intention is not Power Scaling here what so ever. Focus this time i hope i can convey my thoughts :-
1- Throughout the story just as i mentioned in the post it looked like Zoro's struggle and training was leading into something big for him and for Luffy's Dream as a Combatant which is Wano. (It turned out its not the case)
2- In that case what is the point of a Strong Combatant that uses a Sword why is he needed for Luffy's Dream to do what?
3- All the Second Strongest right hand man have NEVER stood in Luffy's Way they were always isolated for Zoro's to beat except for Pica which was just an annoyance.
So with that in mind Oda can easily remove Zoro from the story along with these Second Strongest Right hand men and nothing will change in the story. What is then the Role Oda will give Zoro? Cut "Something? Kill "Someone"? Or something else Entirely that needs a sword?
As for the Steel Thing and Baratie. Man that is a thin Spear.. Post Time Skip Luffy couldn't break a Steel Shield while Zoro easily Cut them in Fish Man Island. G3 Luffy broke a thick Iron Door in Enies Lobby. And Only only with G4 Luffy was able to break a sheet of Steel in Wano "Udon Training" using what? Ryou the thing that allowed Zoro to Cut Daz Bones. And Please focus on what is Written above not this.
I just answered a powerscaling-oriented comment that was aimed at my post lol, i can answer by nitpicking here and there. But since you wanna focus on role etc...well imo all the relevant captains have relevant Right-Hand man. If you remove both Zoro and all YC1 then yea it may not affect the story, but if you only remove Zoro and no one else? Luffy's adventure will stop since after he beat the strongest, then the fresh second strongest will have enough strength to kill him.
I'm not going by hype route, i'm going by character's statement about type of material. Zoro said about cutting steel by the time he faced Mr.1, meaning the previous swords he cut weren't steel, while what Luffy broke was Wootz Steel armor. You're the one saying "wootz steel armor doesn't compare to cutting full-body steel" while nothing in the manga says which one is weaker, so i think you're the one going by "hype route".
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Man read read please. My intention is not Power Scaling here what so ever. Focus this time i hope i can convey my thoughts :-
1- Throughout the story just as i mentioned in the post it looked like Zoro's struggle and training was leading into something big for him and for Luffy's Dream as a Combatant which is Wano. (It turned out its not the case)
2- In that case what is the point of a Strong Combatant that uses a Sword why is he needed for Luffy's Dream to do what?
3- All the Second Strongest right hand man have NEVER stood in Luffy's Way they were always isolated for Zoro's to beat except for Pica which was just an annoyance.
So with that in mind Oda can easily remove Zoro from the story along with these Second Strongest Right hand men and nothing will change in the story. What is then the Role Oda will give Zoro? Cut "Something? Kill "Someone"? Or something else Entirely that needs a sword?
As for the Steel Thing and Baratie. Man that is a thin Spear.. Post Time Skip Luffy couldn't break a Steel Shield while Zoro easily Cut them in Fish Man Island. G3 Luffy broke a thick Iron Door in Enies Lobby. And Only only with G4 Luffy was able to break a sheet of Steel in Wano "Udon Training" using what? Ryou the thing that allowed Zoro to Cut Daz Bones. And Please focus on what is Written above not this.
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LOL.. Man your 1st reply to the post was a power scaling one when the whole thread isn't supposed to be that way. Anyways.. You are still insisting on the Power Scaling since you keep bringing up the Second Strongest in Every Crew. Alright how about this then. These Characters only Exist because Zoro exist and you have accepted that they add nothing to the story since they are isolated around Zoro and what goes for Zoro isn't relevant to Luffy's Dream or Goal for now.
Ok but you also brought up what If Zoro was removed and these Characters still existed. I would say they wouldn't be in the Story if Zoro isn't in the story himself but i will bite. This can be easily fixed if a strong character like Jimbe who has a role joined early in the story or if Nami who has a role was actually Strong enough to beat them or Chopper. We don't need Zoro or Ussop who has no role to fill this part when the options are limitless. So .. Again.
If Zoro a Sword user is needed for Luffy's Dream. What is he going to Cut for Luffy?
If Ussop a Sniper is needed for Luffy's Dream. What is he going to Snipe or Lie for Luffy? - example - "Is he going to Snipe Imu from Laugh Tale" ?
There has to be a role for them since they are in the story.
Ok but you also brought up what If Zoro was removed and these Characters still existed. I would say they wouldn't be in the Story if Zoro isn't in the story himself but i will bite. This can be easily fixed if a strong character like Jimbe who has a role joined early in the story or if Nami who has a role was actually Strong enough to beat them or Chopper. We don't need Zoro or Ussop who has no role to fill this part when the options are limitless. So .. Again.
If Zoro a Sword user is needed for Luffy's Dream. What is he going to Cut for Luffy?
If Ussop a Sniper is needed for Luffy's Dream. What is he going to Snipe or Lie for Luffy? - example - "Is he going to Snipe Imu from Laugh Tale" ?
There has to be a role for them since they are in the story.
Wait, you don't want a powerscaling response but...wasn't your first post in this thread about powerscaling? Since you mentioned in the first post, about "if Zoro's role is not to cut an enemy Luffy cannot beat, then what is the role of Zoro?"
So wasn't it powerscaling post in the first place? If Zoro's role is a combatant, is even it realistic to make other non-combat stuff up for him to help Luffy get his goal? Usopp sniped Sugar to help Luffy's cause, isn't it helping Luffy's way to be PK? Zoro cut King so that King can't interfere against Luffy, isn't it also a help for Luffy's way to be PK? Each of them have fulfilled their role in each arc, so they will surely fulfill their role in the final arc as well by their own way (Oda's own way).
If you say "So Zoro can be replaced as long as Luffy get other strong guy" then yeah Zoro is replaceable. But then, everyone is replaceable. Oda can replace Usopp with Kizaru since he's a great sniper, and he's stronger than Zoro too. Oda can also make some stuff up to build it, like Luffy beat Kizaru after Wano, and he made Kizaru realized some friendship stuff and some unfulfilled promise in the past with Aokiji, the reason of which Kizaru will beat Akainu for example. The options are limitless...that doesn't mean Oda will do it tho?
So wasn't it powerscaling post in the first place? If Zoro's role is a combatant, is even it realistic to make other non-combat stuff up for him to help Luffy get his goal? Usopp sniped Sugar to help Luffy's cause, isn't it helping Luffy's way to be PK? Zoro cut King so that King can't interfere against Luffy, isn't it also a help for Luffy's way to be PK? Each of them have fulfilled their role in each arc, so they will surely fulfill their role in the final arc as well by their own way (Oda's own way).
If you say "So Zoro can be replaced as long as Luffy get other strong guy" then yeah Zoro is replaceable. But then, everyone is replaceable. Oda can replace Usopp with Kizaru since he's a great sniper, and he's stronger than Zoro too. Oda can also make some stuff up to build it, like Luffy beat Kizaru after Wano, and he made Kizaru realized some friendship stuff and some unfulfilled promise in the past with Aokiji, the reason of which Kizaru will beat Akainu for example. The options are limitless...that doesn't mean Oda will do it tho?
Yes i mentioned "If Zoro's role isn't to cut an enemy Luffy cannot beat" AND then the Question was "Then What is the role of Zoro?" So what i did in the Thread itself was REMOVING any Combat related stuff from my QUESTION see?
Yes it was not supposed to be a Power Scaling Post since i explained why its not the case.
Yes it realistic to wonder and ask and speculate if there is something more to him other than beating non essential characters maybe something like Cutting the Sea to Laugh Tale? I am curios to know others opinions. Which is why i made the post. Sniping Sugar won't make Luffy a PK because Doflamingo isn't important to beat for Luffy to become a Pirate King let alone someone like Sugar who can be dealt with by any other means but she was written to give Ussop a Spotlight in that arc that is it. King was so irrelevant he was being held by Marco because Zoro was busy. And can be dealt by any other character while Sanji took care of Queen. So no King was never in the way for Luffy and never posed any threat to him. The Final arc here we go so what is their role going to be? another irrelevant fight for Zoro? or another Special Ability for Ussop? they can be cut from the story and never pose any obstacle for Luffy.
Its funny you chose Ussop for your idea here since he and Zoro are the main point of the topic. Yes anyone can be replaced but they still will have roles lol. So what is "Combatant" and "Sniper/liar" roles are needed for in the Ultimate Goal of Luffy?
If Luffy can fill the Combatant role himself against anyone who stands in his way. And Sniping was never an obstacle for Luffy yet.
:cheers:
Yes it was not supposed to be a Power Scaling Post since i explained why its not the case.
Yes it realistic to wonder and ask and speculate if there is something more to him other than beating non essential characters maybe something like Cutting the Sea to Laugh Tale? I am curios to know others opinions. Which is why i made the post. Sniping Sugar won't make Luffy a PK because Doflamingo isn't important to beat for Luffy to become a Pirate King let alone someone like Sugar who can be dealt with by any other means but she was written to give Ussop a Spotlight in that arc that is it. King was so irrelevant he was being held by Marco because Zoro was busy. And can be dealt by any other character while Sanji took care of Queen. So no King was never in the way for Luffy and never posed any threat to him. The Final arc here we go so what is their role going to be? another irrelevant fight for Zoro? or another Special Ability for Ussop? they can be cut from the story and never pose any obstacle for Luffy.
Its funny you chose Ussop for your idea here since he and Zoro are the main point of the topic. Yes anyone can be replaced but they still will have roles lol. So what is "Combatant" and "Sniper/liar" roles are needed for in the Ultimate Goal of Luffy?
If Luffy can fill the Combatant role himself against anyone who stands in his way. And Sniping was never an obstacle for Luffy yet.
:cheers:
Ooh i see what you mean by removing the combat-related stuff...but removing "Zoro's role is to beat opponents that Luffy can't" still doesnt remove combat-related stuff completely tho...since Zoro is a combatant and he's still relevant even when Luffy is stronger. Luffy can be the combatant himself since he's the strongest, but then Oda won't have that dynamic debate and fandom war (more sales) of Zoro vs Luffy especially pre-TS then.
And imo more importantly, Luffy already have the role of captain, the one deciding the important stuff. But Zoro is the more serious one who guides Luffy to be more responsible, since Zoro has constant discipline which Luffy doesn't have.
Btw in Usopp's case...Usopp beat Sugar at Dressrosa, which helped Dressrosa people revert back to their original form after suffering all this time. Wasnt it sn important role to Luffy's mission at that time?
And imo more importantly, Luffy already have the role of captain, the one deciding the important stuff. But Zoro is the more serious one who guides Luffy to be more responsible, since Zoro has constant discipline which Luffy doesn't have.
Btw in Usopp's case...Usopp beat Sugar at Dressrosa, which helped Dressrosa people revert back to their original form after suffering all this time. Wasnt it sn important role to Luffy's mission at that time?
And how is that relevant to my topic here? Ussop could the Strongest Ever and that doesn't mean he will have a role in Luffy's End Goal since Luffy is taking care of that department himself "aka beat any Obstacle on his way". And you missed "if" and "Not" in that sentence "If Zoro's role is not". But alas this isn't my intention here.Nami can be the serious one who guides Luffy to be responsible. Since this isn't a major role. So any member can play that part. And again this isn't relevant to my topic too.
For Dressrosa not for Luffy. Yes it helped their cause which is helping the people of Dressrosa. But anyone can play that part it doesn't have to be Ussop.
Let me help ease this with a scenario and lets see. This Post is about LUFFY's END GOAL his ULTIMATE GOAL his DREAM.
Lets walk you throu this step by step:-
1- Robin and Nami figured out how to get to Laugh Tale.
2- Franky will make sure the Ship can handle anything the seas throws at them while Jimbe will make sure to accurately sail them using Nami as the Navigator.
3- Chopper will make sure everyone is in a great condition even if any of the crew gets sick especially Luffy after his biggest fight ever.
4- Omg the journey is harsh and difficult but they managed to get there.
5- Robin will read and discover whatever that they find and Luffy will get his one piece along with Sanji's new revelation about All Blue and Finally the World Map of Nami that she created on their way will help them traverse the seas and get where they need to go.
6- A Strong Enemy will stand on their way to do what they need to do and Luffy will end this Enemy.
7- A Huge Party is created by Luffy and Sanji will cook the biggest meal ever and Brook will Sing for Everyone.
The End.
So how does Zoro and Ussop help Luffy here?
Ah, gotcha. I got confused but you just used my wording. Regardless, you're still assuming with that comparison.
I was just applying "hype" of my own to show why you can't use it to convince someone else, because it's subjective. Clearly you didn't accept my assumptions, just like I didn't accept what you said about Wootz. What I'm really getting at is that they aren't equivalent feats and shouldn't be transferred between each other automatically like you are doing. Maybe Wootz armor is tougher than Daz's DF and maybe cutting a small steel knife is also an equivalent feat, but those would be assumptions again.
I mean, I can go around making any assumptions I want to just like you. They're not good for forcing a point (like breaking Wootz = breaking Daz's body) because if I'm trying to convince other people they won't necessarily accept the same assumptions. I can illustrate this by saying:
1) Hachi's got steel swords. Because steel is referenced as "sword metal" by Zoro, and Arlong's crew is probably not running around with weak swords for their top men. Hachi called himself the "second strongest swordsman from Fishman Island" (the first being Hyozou), so I doubt he is using anything weaker than steel.
2) Zoro couldn't cut those swords at this point in the story, but they clearly broke. Therefore he broke them by sheer force.
3) Daz Bones' full-steel body is too thick to break by force, just like the cage in Orange Town. So he had to learn to cut clean right through.
Of course, you won't accept those assumptions for a multitude of reasons, chief being it runs counter to the point you're trying to make. But in the same way, you can't expect everyone to just accept your assumptions like "breaking Wootz armor = breaking Daz's body", "Luffy couldn't break bars but became strong enough to do so in a few chapters", etc.
As an aside: what we do have in the story to compare Wootz vs DF is that Wootz survived like 3 or 4 east blue Luffy bazookas before breaking. Meanwhile Daz Bones actually stopped one attack by the WSS meant to kill Luffy:
Comparing Wootz to Daz Bones is just sus. Sure, you can do it with a set of very specific assumptions, but I wouldn't use it as some lynch pin for evidence in other arguments. Because to me and other people, there is no intention at all in how Oda wrote these two things to make them comparable feats. It's disingenuous to compare them. Krieg was at no point stressed as being impervious to sword slashes in the same way Daz was. Krieg was still a fodder villain at this point in the story and Luffy didn't really have issues or need to get stronger. Alabasta was the first time Straw Hats were portrayed as being underdogs and had to struggle seriously.
I'm probably done with this because it's severely off-topic and probably not essential for whatever points you're trying to make. You can argue that Luffy would find a way to beat Daz, anyways. I just specifically have an issue with saying that breaking Krieg's gear is equivalent to breaking that DF, because it requires hand-waving away a few things and accepting a lot of assumptions and runs counter to how these two things were presented narratively.
I was just applying "hype" of my own to show why you can't use it to convince someone else, because it's subjective. Clearly you didn't accept my assumptions, just like I didn't accept what you said about Wootz. What I'm really getting at is that they aren't equivalent feats and shouldn't be transferred between each other automatically like you are doing. Maybe Wootz armor is tougher than Daz's DF and maybe cutting a small steel knife is also an equivalent feat, but those would be assumptions again.
I mean, I can go around making any assumptions I want to just like you. They're not good for forcing a point (like breaking Wootz = breaking Daz's body) because if I'm trying to convince other people they won't necessarily accept the same assumptions. I can illustrate this by saying:
1) Hachi's got steel swords. Because steel is referenced as "sword metal" by Zoro, and Arlong's crew is probably not running around with weak swords for their top men. Hachi called himself the "second strongest swordsman from Fishman Island" (the first being Hyozou), so I doubt he is using anything weaker than steel.
2) Zoro couldn't cut those swords at this point in the story, but they clearly broke. Therefore he broke them by sheer force.
3) Daz Bones' full-steel body is too thick to break by force, just like the cage in Orange Town. So he had to learn to cut clean right through.
Of course, you won't accept those assumptions for a multitude of reasons, chief being it runs counter to the point you're trying to make. But in the same way, you can't expect everyone to just accept your assumptions like "breaking Wootz armor = breaking Daz's body", "Luffy couldn't break bars but became strong enough to do so in a few chapters", etc.
As an aside: what we do have in the story to compare Wootz vs DF is that Wootz survived like 3 or 4 east blue Luffy bazookas before breaking. Meanwhile Daz Bones actually stopped one attack by the WSS meant to kill Luffy:
Comparing Wootz to Daz Bones is just sus. Sure, you can do it with a set of very specific assumptions, but I wouldn't use it as some lynch pin for evidence in other arguments. Because to me and other people, there is no intention at all in how Oda wrote these two things to make them comparable feats. It's disingenuous to compare them. Krieg was at no point stressed as being impervious to sword slashes in the same way Daz was. Krieg was still a fodder villain at this point in the story and Luffy didn't really have issues or need to get stronger. Alabasta was the first time Straw Hats were portrayed as being underdogs and had to struggle seriously.
I'm probably done with this because it's severely off-topic and probably not essential for whatever points you're trying to make. You can argue that Luffy would find a way to beat Daz, anyways. I just specifically have an issue with saying that breaking Krieg's gear is equivalent to breaking that DF, because it requires hand-waving away a few things and accepting a lot of assumptions and runs counter to how these two things were presented narratively.
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So Luffy won't be worried to leaves super strong opponent while he has another agenda.
& Usopp won't falter to support everyone even though the opponent is far stronger than Usopp or Yonkou-Admirals & above caliber. So that the weak ones have a chance to attack or to retreat, while Usopp disturb the opponent s.
& Usopp won't falter to support everyone even though the opponent is far stronger than Usopp or Yonkou-Admirals & above caliber. So that the weak ones have a chance to attack or to retreat, while Usopp disturb the opponent s.
Ah, gotcha. I got confused but you just used my wording. Regardless, you're still assuming with that comparison.
I was just applying "hype" of my own to show why you can't use it to convince someone else, because it's subjective. Clearly you didn't accept my assumptions, just like I didn't accept what you said about Wootz. What I'm really getting at is that they aren't equivalent feats and shouldn't be transferred between each other automatically like you are doing. Maybe Wootz armor is tougher than Daz's DF and maybe cutting a small steel knife is also an equivalent feat, but those would be assumptions again.
I mean, I can go around making any assumptions I want to just like you. They're not good for forcing a point (like breaking Wootz = breaking Daz's body) because if I'm trying to convince other people they won't necessarily accept the same assumptions. I can illustrate this by saying:
1) Hachi's got steel swords. Because steel is referenced as "sword metal" by Zoro, and Arlong's crew is probably not running around with weak swords for their top men. Hachi called himself the "second strongest swordsman from Fishman Island" (the first being Hyozou), so I doubt he is using anything weaker than steel.
2) Zoro couldn't cut those swords at this point in the story, but they clearly broke. Therefore he broke them by sheer force.
3) Daz Bones' full-steel body is too thick to break by force, just like the cage in Orange Town. So he had to learn to cut clean right through.
Of course, you won't accept those assumptions for a multitude of reasons, chief being it runs counter to the point you're trying to make. But in the same way, you can't expect everyone to just accept your assumptions like "breaking Wootz armor = breaking Daz's body", "Luffy couldn't break bars but became strong enough to do so in a few chapters", etc.
As an aside: what we do have in the story to compare Wootz vs DF is that Wootz survived like 3 or 4 east blue Luffy bazookas before breaking. Meanwhile Daz Bones actually stopped one attack by the WSS meant to kill Luffy:
Comparing Wootz to Daz Bones is just sus. Sure, you can do it with a set of very specific assumptions, but I wouldn't use it as some lynch pin for evidence in other arguments. Because to me and other people, there is no intention at all in how Oda wrote these two things to make them comparable feats. It's disingenuous to compare them. Krieg was at no point stressed as being impervious to sword slashes in the same way Daz was. Krieg was still a fodder villain at this point in the story and Luffy didn't really have issues or need to get stronger. Alabasta was the first time Straw Hats were portrayed as being underdogs and had to struggle seriously.
I'm probably done with this because it's severely off-topic and probably not essential for whatever points you're trying to make. You can argue that Luffy would find a way to beat Daz, anyways. I just specifically have an issue with saying that breaking Krieg's gear is equivalent to breaking that DF, because it requires hand-waving away a few things and accepting a lot of assumptions and runs counter to how these two things were presented narratively.
I was just applying "hype" of my own to show why you can't use it to convince someone else, because it's subjective. Clearly you didn't accept my assumptions, just like I didn't accept what you said about Wootz. What I'm really getting at is that they aren't equivalent feats and shouldn't be transferred between each other automatically like you are doing. Maybe Wootz armor is tougher than Daz's DF and maybe cutting a small steel knife is also an equivalent feat, but those would be assumptions again.
I mean, I can go around making any assumptions I want to just like you. They're not good for forcing a point (like breaking Wootz = breaking Daz's body) because if I'm trying to convince other people they won't necessarily accept the same assumptions. I can illustrate this by saying:
1) Hachi's got steel swords. Because steel is referenced as "sword metal" by Zoro, and Arlong's crew is probably not running around with weak swords for their top men. Hachi called himself the "second strongest swordsman from Fishman Island" (the first being Hyozou), so I doubt he is using anything weaker than steel.
2) Zoro couldn't cut those swords at this point in the story, but they clearly broke. Therefore he broke them by sheer force.
3) Daz Bones' full-steel body is too thick to break by force, just like the cage in Orange Town. So he had to learn to cut clean right through.
Of course, you won't accept those assumptions for a multitude of reasons, chief being it runs counter to the point you're trying to make. But in the same way, you can't expect everyone to just accept your assumptions like "breaking Wootz armor = breaking Daz's body", "Luffy couldn't break bars but became strong enough to do so in a few chapters", etc.
As an aside: what we do have in the story to compare Wootz vs DF is that Wootz survived like 3 or 4 east blue Luffy bazookas before breaking. Meanwhile Daz Bones actually stopped one attack by the WSS meant to kill Luffy:
Comparing Wootz to Daz Bones is just sus. Sure, you can do it with a set of very specific assumptions, but I wouldn't use it as some lynch pin for evidence in other arguments. Because to me and other people, there is no intention at all in how Oda wrote these two things to make them comparable feats. It's disingenuous to compare them. Krieg was at no point stressed as being impervious to sword slashes in the same way Daz was. Krieg was still a fodder villain at this point in the story and Luffy didn't really have issues or need to get stronger. Alabasta was the first time Straw Hats were portrayed as being underdogs and had to struggle seriously.
I'm probably done with this because it's severely off-topic and probably not essential for whatever points you're trying to make. You can argue that Luffy would find a way to beat Daz, anyways. I just specifically have an issue with saying that breaking Krieg's gear is equivalent to breaking that DF, because it requires hand-waving away a few things and accepting a lot of assumptions and runs counter to how these two things were presented narratively.
Good powerscaling discussion tho, imo you're one of the more passionate, focused, fair ones regarding powerscaling...quite rare nowadays in this forum imo lol