Controversial Big Mom is an Absolute Trash Person

[SparagusParty]

On my way to work shortly, so I might touch up this post a bit later with adding manga panels and the rest.


Basically, I think Big Mom is a terrible piece of garbage character. I am normally not the type to rush for insults, but this character is indeed worthy. I think Big Mom may be the most disgusting of the villains shown in One Piece.

Here are some reasons:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One: Reveres a a child trafficker scumbag. (Carmel)

Those who revere trash people are less than trash people. Enough said.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Two: Big Mom is a thug who takes what she wants by force and coercion

Recall the scenario with Fishman Island, and all similar situations. When Big Mom comes along, your choices are to reallocate vast amounts of resources (people, manpower, tools and devices) into creating a feeding system to provide absurd amounts of candy to feed this fat filthy slob who is too lazy to learn to make food for herself. If you do not provide her the food she demands, she decimates your island and massacres your people.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three: Big Mom is a sexual pervert and behaves like less than a whore.


The result of Big Mom's childish, naieve and idiotic dream of having "every race together in a peaceful utopia" was a warped sexuality where Big Mom actively seeks to use male specimens for breeding purposes - rather than having an actual romantic relationship, still much less towards an honorable marriage. Big Mom's "husbands" or "men" are just tools for making babies. She has no regard for them.

Grill a character like Big Mom and you will see feminist double standards come out. "Its bad when men do it but okay if its a woman doing it." If you hate it when a male character does things like this, you should be reasonable and hate Big Mom as well. What is the term? Misandrist? Matriarchy?

But that's not the only issue tied to this. See the next point.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Four: Big Mom is quite likely a sexual predator and a rapist (Not certain but highly probable), and her acts seem incredibly immoral

First, recall how Big Mom acts with food. "If I want it, I will take it" - she gets food by destroying and massacring people who resist.

So what about when she wants to do one of her sick breeding experiments? What happens when Big Mom wants to make a baby with a "man that she cannot have" - one who refuses to capitulate?

Well, she already has a behavioral pattern reinforced of "I will use force and coercion".

It is likely that some of the male participants of this sicko's island experiment were unwilling subjects. Either taken through brute force (rape), or else forced into capitulating Big Mom's disgusting habits when she threatened their homeland and people. "Breed with me or I will destroy your island and everything you love. And here's proof - because across the sea is that other island I just ruined the other night for not stuffing my face with 40, 000 cupcakes like I demanded. Serve my breeding experiment, or become like them!"


Contrary to what Oda and some others might think, not all men are horny perverts. You're telling me a gnome willingly breeded with Big Mom - a creature physically many thousands of times his size?

Come on Big Mom fans - if there even is any, be real. This "Big Mom" sexuality is disgusting. It's pretty normal to find the thought of some insane woman shoving tiny people into her nether regions gross -this is no way correlates to racism, so don't be an idiot and even try the race card here. It is gross, man. And then if you say she is extracting the "stuff" in a lab when the morality of it all the process is under question - that still makes her a filthy immoral insane scientist type, so its still a lose lose situation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Five: Big Mom's Children are basically her slaves.

I will back up this point with some panels when I get back. Big Mom's "Cake Island Paradise" doesn't seem like the kind of place every single one of her family stays in because "it is so great, beautiful and peaceful".

What is the difference between Big Mom and a Celestial Dragon? She seems just like them. The people around her are tools for her private pleasure or vision, and what they see, feel or think about it is irrelevant to her.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The question: Who will even step up to defend Big Mom? You cannot defend the indefensible. I am pretty sure that, at this point, even the radical feminist and white knight types (who just want to impress women) will find her intolerable.

Big Mom is literally one of the most deplorable villains of One Piece, if not of all Manga and Anime.

 

[Dickie D. Dick]

Good thread.

 

[Ven437]

Obviously yes she is an absolute evil person with deluded misunderstandings of the world and herself. And then there’s the fact that despite all this she was once Pirate King material as evident from her flashbacks of being super young and ambitious. That is why she is so interesting.

 

[NAMELESS]

On my way to work shortly, so I might touch up this post a bit later with adding manga panels and the rest.


Basically, I think Big Mom is a terrible piece of garbage character. I am normally not the type to rush for insults, but this character is indeed worthy. I think Big Mom may be the most disgusting of the villains shown in One Piece.

Here are some reasons:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One: Reveres a a child trafficker scumbag. (Carmel)

Those who revere trash people are less than trash people. Enough said.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Two: Big Mom is a thug who takes what she wants by force and coercion

Recall the scenario with Fishman Island, and all similar situations. When Big Mom comes along, your choices are to reallocate vast amounts of resources (people, manpower, tools and devices) into creating a feeding system to provide absurd amounts of candy to feed this fat filthy slob who is too lazy to learn to make food for herself. If you do not provide her the food she demands, she decimates your island and massacres your people.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three: Big Mom is a sexual pervert and behaves like less than a whore.


The result of Big Mom's childish, naieve and idiotic dream of having "every race together in a peaceful utopia" was a warped sexuality where Big Mom actively seeks to use male specimens for breeding purposes - rather than having an actual romantic relationship, still much less towards an honorable marriage. Big Mom's "husbands" or "men" are just tools for making babies. She has no regard for them.

Grill a character like Big Mom and you will see feminist double standards come out. "Its bad when men do it but okay if its a woman doing it." If you hate it when a male character does things like this, you should be reasonable and hate Big Mom as well. What is the term? Misandrist? Matriarchy?

But that's not the only issue tied to this. See the next point.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Four: Big Mom is quite likely a sexual predator and a rapist (Not certain but highly probable), and her acts seem incredibly immoral

First, recall how Big Mom acts with food. "If I want it, I will take it" - she gets food by destroying and massacring people who resist.

So what about when she wants to do one of her sick breeding experiments? What happens when Big Mom wants to make a baby with a "man that she cannot have" - one who refuses to capitulate?

Well, she already has a behavioral pattern reinforced of "I will use force and coercion".

It is likely that some of the male participants of this sicko's island experiment were unwilling subjects. Either taken through brute force (rape), or else forced into capitulating Big Mom's disgusting habits when she threatened their homeland and people. "Breed with me or I will destroy your island and everything you love. And here's proof - because across the sea is that other island I just ruined the other night for not stuffing my face with 40, 000 cupcakes like I demanded. Serve my breeding experiment, or become like them!"


Contrary to what Oda and some others might think, not all men are horny perverts. You're telling me a gnome willingly breeded with Big Mom - a creature physically many thousands of times his size?

Come on Big Mom fans - if there even is any, be real. This "Big Mom" sexuality is disgusting. It's pretty normal to find the thought of some insane woman shoving tiny people into her nether regions gross -this is no way correlates to racism, so don't be an idiot and even try the race card here. It is gross, man. And then if you say she is extracting the "stuff" in a lab when the morality of it all the process is under question - that still makes her a filthy immoral insane scientist type, so its still a lose lose situation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Five: Big Mom's Children are basically her slaves.

I will back up this point with some panels when I get back. Big Mom's "Cake Island Paradise" doesn't seem like the kind of place every single one of her family stays in because "it is so great, beautiful and peaceful".

What is the difference between Big Mom and a Celestial Dragon? She seems just like them. The people around her are tools for her private pleasure or vision, and what they see, feel or think about it is irrelevant to her.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The question: Who will even step up to defend Big Mom? You cannot defend the indefensible. I am pretty sure that, at this point, even the radical feminist and white knight types (who just want to impress women) will find her intolerable.

Big Mom is literally one of the most deplorable villains of One Piece, if not of all Manga and Anime.

She dead.Why the hate?

 

[Malakhith]

Not a white knight but I like the character so I will try to address your points:

One: Reveres a a child trafficker scumbag. (Carmel)

She never learned about what Caramel did. It was a secret to everyone and one of the reasons why she was considered a great woman and was able to get a supply of kids. To BM Carmel was a mother figure that defended her from people that tried to kill and the orphanage was the closest thing to a family that she had. It's even possible that her dream is just her way of recreating those happy memories. Also it's worth nothing that had she had been sold to the government she potentially could be a great marine and even had some flings with Garp and all the issues you had with her would probably not exist.
You can't blame her for something she don't know, man.

Two: Big Mom is a thug who takes what she wants by force and coercion

Yes. She was raised by a pirate and he used her to get whatever he wanted. And, after mother Carmel died, there was no one to hold her and teach her how to behave. There's a reason why kids that have friends instead of parents are such spoiled brats. Imagine those people with powers equal to BM and it would be understandable.

Three: Big Mom is a sexual pervert and behaves like less than a whore.

This one is a super flawed reading of the character. Do you know why she acts like a whore? Because the mom she loved disappeared and the closest thing to a father figure to her used her as one.

Spoiler: do you remember this guy?

Well, he was the one that found BM and also her first partner as soon as she got old enough to have children. If a young girl is raped by her father and disposed as soon as he got enough, while being told to take what she wanted and not give a fuck about anyone, what do you think would happen to her? We know that she had children as soon as she was of age, but do we really know when the abuse started?

Four: Big Mom is quite likely a sexual predator and a rapist (Not certain but highly probable), and her acts seem incredibly immoral

Yes. I'm not surprised. See answer to argument 3, above.

Five: Big Mom's Children are basically her slaves.

Yes and no. While she is definitively abusive, it's mentioned plenty of times that she is very protective of her own (see how her acted with Kaido and Tama) and VERY traumatized about rejection. So she is a incredible exaggerated version of a abusive asian mother? Yes.
However, there's also another point that you failed to mention: while she's abusive, try to think about it from her point of view. Also remember that while she was abusive she was also very protective of her own and her kids, in general, didn't seem to resent her to the point of wanting her killed. On the contraire, most of them did their best to make sure she was safe when she rampaged in WCI. For the most part, they turned ruthless but still seemed to have some love for her.

Big Mom is literally one of the most deplorable villains of One Piece, if not of all Manga and Anime.

Actually the opposite. Her backstory is pretty tragic and she seem to have plenty of redeeming characteristics in her personality. Almost every single behavior of hers can be explained in her upbringing and I actually hope that she's alive and we see more of her outside of the shit wano writing.
What it appears to me is that you ignored her backstory and just went to complain about her without even understanding the basics.

 

[DarkWitch]

Lol of course she's a horrible and evil character, this isn't something new.

Despite that, I still think she was a interesting character during the WCI arc.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Villain does villain stuff. Fanbase is shocked.

 

[ConquistadoR]

She's an entitled, overgrown (wo)manchild who was never told "No!" her entire life.

Although her intentions about her dream world are noble, she wanted to make that world by force and not by co-operation. Her entire nation might seem peaceful but its all from fear of her and not because they are truly peaceful.

 

[Peroroncino]

So you're telling a villain is a horrible person? Who would've guessed

 

[Cozy Sofa]

While Big Mom is a disgusting human being what you actually noticed are how terrible most characters in One Piece are. The setting is happy go lucky, characters scream out their attacks, colored hair and so on but all the way from Alvida to Kaido you have some seriously depraved souls on the sea.

It really starts in chapter 1 with good guy Shanks, shooting those he don't like in the head. That's straight up Mafia moves and would be #1 headline if it happened in the real world. He is also a dead beat dad and of the four greatest pirates (terrorists) in the world refusing to follow the law no matter what you think of the law.

Don't get me started on Buggy, Kuro, Don Krieg or Arlong - each one worse than the next.

 

[Thaidakar]

On my way to work shortly, so I might touch up this post a bit later with adding manga panels and the rest.


Basically, I think Big Mom is a terrible piece of garbage character. I am normally not the type to rush for insults, but this character is indeed worthy. I think Big Mom may be the most disgusting of the villains shown in One Piece.

Here are some reasons:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One: Reveres a a child trafficker scumbag. (Carmel)

Those who revere trash people are less than trash people. Enough said.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Two: Big Mom is a thug who takes what she wants by force and coercion

Recall the scenario with Fishman Island, and all similar situations. When Big Mom comes along, your choices are to reallocate vast amounts of resources (people, manpower, tools and devices) into creating a feeding system to provide absurd amounts of candy to feed this fat filthy slob who is too lazy to learn to make food for herself. If you do not provide her the food she demands, she decimates your island and massacres your people.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three: Big Mom is a sexual pervert and behaves like less than a whore.


The result of Big Mom's childish, naieve and idiotic dream of having "every race together in a peaceful utopia" was a warped sexuality where Big Mom actively seeks to use male specimens for breeding purposes - rather than having an actual romantic relationship, still much less towards an honorable marriage. Big Mom's "husbands" or "men" are just tools for making babies. She has no regard for them.

Grill a character like Big Mom and you will see feminist double standards come out. "Its bad when men do it but okay if its a woman doing it." If you hate it when a male character does things like this, you should be reasonable and hate Big Mom as well. What is the term? Misandrist? Matriarchy?

But that's not the only issue tied to this. See the next point.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Four: Big Mom is quite likely a sexual predator and a rapist (Not certain but highly probable), and her acts seem incredibly immoral

First, recall how Big Mom acts with food. "If I want it, I will take it" - she gets food by destroying and massacring people who resist.

So what about when she wants to do one of her sick breeding experiments? What happens when Big Mom wants to make a baby with a "man that she cannot have" - one who refuses to capitulate?

Well, she already has a behavioral pattern reinforced of "I will use force and coercion".

It is likely that some of the male participants of this sicko's island experiment were unwilling subjects. Either taken through brute force (rape), or else forced into capitulating Big Mom's disgusting habits when she threatened their homeland and people. "Breed with me or I will destroy your island and everything you love. And here's proof - because across the sea is that other island I just ruined the other night for not stuffing my face with 40, 000 cupcakes like I demanded. Serve my breeding experiment, or become like them!"


Contrary to what Oda and some others might think, not all men are horny perverts. You're telling me a gnome willingly breeded with Big Mom - a creature physically many thousands of times his size?

Come on Big Mom fans - if there even is any, be real. This "Big Mom" sexuality is disgusting. It's pretty normal to find the thought of some insane woman shoving tiny people into her nether regions gross -this is no way correlates to racism, so don't be an idiot and even try the race card here. It is gross, man. And then if you say she is extracting the "stuff" in a lab when the morality of it all the process is under question - that still makes her a filthy immoral insane scientist type, so its still a lose lose situation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Five: Big Mom's Children are basically her slaves.

I will back up this point with some panels when I get back. Big Mom's "Cake Island Paradise" doesn't seem like the kind of place every single one of her family stays in because "it is so great, beautiful and peaceful".

What is the difference between Big Mom and a Celestial Dragon? She seems just like them. The people around her are tools for her private pleasure or vision, and what they see, feel or think about it is irrelevant to her.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The question: Who will even step up to defend Big Mom? You cannot defend the indefensible. I am pretty sure that, at this point, even the radical feminist and white knight types (who just want to impress women) will find her intolerable.

Big Mom is literally one of the most deplorable villains of One Piece, if not of all Manga and Anime.

Young and fresh meme:

Me: "Ever heard of my special race, ma'am?"

 

[Erkan12]

On my way to work shortly, so I might touch up this post a bit later with adding manga panels and the rest.


Basically, I think Big Mom is a terrible piece of garbage character. I am normally not the type to rush for insults, but this character is indeed worthy. I think Big Mom may be the most disgusting of the villains shown in One Piece.

Here are some reasons:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One: Reveres a a child trafficker scumbag. (Carmel)

Those who revere trash people are less than trash people. Enough said.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Two: Big Mom is a thug who takes what she wants by force and coercion

Recall the scenario with Fishman Island, and all similar situations. When Big Mom comes along, your choices are to reallocate vast amounts of resources (people, manpower, tools and devices) into creating a feeding system to provide absurd amounts of candy to feed this fat filthy slob who is too lazy to learn to make food for herself. If you do not provide her the food she demands, she decimates your island and massacres your people.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three: Big Mom is a sexual pervert and behaves like less than a whore.


The result of Big Mom's childish, naieve and idiotic dream of having "every race together in a peaceful utopia" was a warped sexuality where Big Mom actively seeks to use male specimens for breeding purposes - rather than having an actual romantic relationship, still much less towards an honorable marriage. Big Mom's "husbands" or "men" are just tools for making babies. She has no regard for them.

Grill a character like Big Mom and you will see feminist double standards come out. "Its bad when men do it but okay if its a woman doing it." If you hate it when a male character does things like this, you should be reasonable and hate Big Mom as well. What is the term? Misandrist? Matriarchy?

But that's not the only issue tied to this. See the next point.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Four: Big Mom is quite likely a sexual predator and a rapist (Not certain but highly probable), and her acts seem incredibly immoral

First, recall how Big Mom acts with food. "If I want it, I will take it" - she gets food by destroying and massacring people who resist.

So what about when she wants to do one of her sick breeding experiments? What happens when Big Mom wants to make a baby with a "man that she cannot have" - one who refuses to capitulate?

Well, she already has a behavioral pattern reinforced of "I will use force and coercion".

It is likely that some of the male participants of this sicko's island experiment were unwilling subjects. Either taken through brute force (rape), or else forced into capitulating Big Mom's disgusting habits when she threatened their homeland and people. "Breed with me or I will destroy your island and everything you love. And here's proof - because across the sea is that other island I just ruined the other night for not stuffing my face with 40, 000 cupcakes like I demanded. Serve my breeding experiment, or become like them!"


Contrary to what Oda and some others might think, not all men are horny perverts. You're telling me a gnome willingly breeded with Big Mom - a creature physically many thousands of times his size?

Come on Big Mom fans - if there even is any, be real. This "Big Mom" sexuality is disgusting. It's pretty normal to find the thought of some insane woman shoving tiny people into her nether regions gross -this is no way correlates to racism, so don't be an idiot and even try the race card here. It is gross, man. And then if you say she is extracting the "stuff" in a lab when the morality of it all the process is under question - that still makes her a filthy immoral insane scientist type, so its still a lose lose situation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Five: Big Mom's Children are basically her slaves.

I will back up this point with some panels when I get back. Big Mom's "Cake Island Paradise" doesn't seem like the kind of place every single one of her family stays in because "it is so great, beautiful and peaceful".

What is the difference between Big Mom and a Celestial Dragon? She seems just like them. The people around her are tools for her private pleasure or vision, and what they see, feel or think about it is irrelevant to her.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The question: Who will even step up to defend Big Mom? You cannot defend the indefensible. I am pretty sure that, at this point, even the radical feminist and white knight types (who just want to impress women) will find her intolerable.

Big Mom is literally one of the most deplorable villains of One Piece, if not of all Manga and Anime.

No she is better than Celestial Dragons because she has good sides:

While Ladmiral Red dog's masters Celestial Dragons don't have any good sides.

 

[zerofifth]

Was anybody trying to say she wasn't a garbage person?

 

[Owl Ki]

Aye, most major villains and antagonists in One Piece usually are scumbags. Especially pirate villains. Lol.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Young and fresh meme:

Me: "Ever heard of my special race, ma'am?"

Her and Doll have some thunder thighs good lord

 

[SparagusParty]

Not a white knight but I like the character so I will try to address your points:



She never learned about what Caramel did. It was a secret to everyone and one of the reasons why she was considered a great woman and was able to get a supply of kids. To BM Carmel was a mother figure that defended her from people that tried to kill and the orphanage was the closest thing to a family that she had. It's even possible that her dream is just her way of recreating those happy memories. Also it's worth nothing that had she had been sold to the government she potentially could be a great marine and even had some flings with Garp and all the issues you had with her would probably not exist.
You can't blame her for something she don't know, man.



Yes. She was raised by a pirate and he used her to get whatever he wanted. And, after mother Carmel died, there was no one to hold her and teach her how to behave. There's a reason why kids that have friends instead of parents are such spoiled brats. Imagine those people with powers equal to BM and it would be understandable.


This one is a super flawed reading of the character. Do you know why she acts like a whore? Because the mom she loved disappeared and the closest thing to a father figure to her used her as one.

Spoiler: do you remember this guy?

Well, he was the one that found BM and also her first partner as soon as she got old enough to have children. If a young girl is raped by her father and disposed as soon as he got enough, while being told to take what she wanted and not give a fuck about anyone, what do you think would happen to her? We know that she had children as soon as she was of age, but do we really know when the abuse started?



Yes. I'm not surprised. See answer to argument 3, above.



Yes and no. While she is definitively abusive, it's mentioned plenty of times that she is very protective of her own (see how her acted with Kaido and Tama) and VERY traumatized about rejection. So she is a incredible exaggerated version of a abusive asian mother? Yes.
However, there's also another point that you failed to mention: while she's abusive, try to think about it from her point of view. Also remember that while she was abusive she was also very protective of her own and her kids, in general, didn't seem to resent her to the point of wanting her killed. On the contraire, most of them did their best to make sure she was safe when she rampaged in WCI. For the most part, they turned ruthless but still seemed to have some love for her.



Actually the opposite. Her backstory is pretty tragic and she seem to have plenty of redeeming characteristics in her personality. Almost every single behavior of hers can be explained in her upbringing and I actually hope that she's alive and we see more of her outside of the shit wano writing.
What it appears to me is that you ignored her backstory and just went to complain about her without even understanding the basics.

@Malakhith

Touche. These are actually great points, and a good counter-perspective to my post. I am just on for a short break, so I probably can't address them with the attention they deserve, but I actually like the points for the most part.

I still feel like, from a healthy moralist standpoint, Big Mom is worthy of criticism. I honestly wouldn't see her as having had no ability to make a free choice to be someone different - same thing for Kaidou with his "Survival of the fittest" tone. They lived a long life, there is simply no way they didn't have critical decision points where they could have willfully changed.

But on the other hand, if you are saying that one can have a level of empathy or compassion for Big Mom - then I do agree. Probably not sufficient to let her continue to run loose if you were say, a character capable of putting her down - but sufficient to say, its regrettable what she went through and that she ended up like this.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now as for all the others that brought up the point of this being a pirate manga, and that I shouldn't be surprised at a villain being a villain: I generally agree.

That wasn't the point of my thread. The point of my thread was to beat on Big Mom a little bit. Actually the one other guy who I tried to quote with a multi-quote but it messed up who mentioned "She is dead now so why the hate" - I can answer these two at the same time.

The point of the thread, and my reasoning for making it was that I was reading over some old chapters and watching some old anime episodes a while back, and realized that Big Mom is kind of taken for granted for some. Many don't think deeply about who she is or what she does, or what the implications of a character like her are. So I made my post because it occurred to me that it is possible that some might never have thought of these points or criticisms before.

Sure, some of you guys here are extremely sharp and might have caught all the nuances of the character immediately, and thus would feel something like "You should have posted something like this while we were still in the Whole Cake Island arc."

But surely there were some that never thought of it - I didn't think of it until now, so why not?


That was my general thinking. Plus, replies like Malakhith's make it worth it - because a good defender of a character can help remind someone like me of some points I might have missed. Overall, I find this mental exercise refreshing.

 

[Malakhith]

Thanks, man. I will just address two points because I don't think morality discussions are eligible to be made in here.

I still feel like, from a healthy moralist standpoint, Big Mom is worthy of criticism.

I totally agree with you. She is 100% responsible for her choices. I just disagree with this :

[/SPOILER]616"]honestly wouldn't see her as having had no ability to make a free choice to be someone different - same thing for Kaidou with his "Survival of the fittest" tone. They lived a long life, there is simply no way they didn't have critical decision points where they could have willfully changed.

One of the prejudices that took a long time for me to lose in my job was thinking like this. Ingrained habits are something incredible hard to ignore and how you are raised affects the entire life of a person to a point that breaking a pattern that you follow is almost impossible even if you are aware of the issue. A basic example is someone that grew in poverty and how they deal with money: the reason why many are incapable of saving money is not because they don't know or want to be better but because the fear of losing that money to credor or someone else make the desire to indulge stronger. Or why people that are abused or have contact with bad people growing up have pretty distorted points of view.

Going back to BM, she was raised by a rapist pirate that used her naivete as a way to get power. We saw that he only saw her as a means to a end. Worse, we know that everything she did was accomplish her dream. When people rebelled against her it wasn't seen as a rebellion but as people

Spoiler: going after her dream

.
I use those images because this is the last time we saw BM as she was presented in WCI. After that she turned into a bumbling idiot and lost a lot of what made her what she was. . If you look at those images you will notice that she was taught by Streusen that she needed to dominate people to fulfill her mother wish. It's her obsession. She was taught by him that people that didn't desire to join her country aren't worth of being alive. To make matters worse she has abandonment issues.
The reason why she creates severe laws to leave the country is because she's unable to let people go. Her losing her mother at a young age let a scar that was not healed at the end of wano. She desires control because without control she will risk losing the things she love. You can see in her reaction to the picture of mother Caramel being broken.
This also leads to some of her more charitable traits. Unlike Kaido she tries to make sure that everyone under her is well protected. When she was young, Kaido was one of those protegees and she made sure that he would survive after

Spoiler: the rocks pirates fell

, we also saw it when she raged against Ulti because the villagers that had feed her had been killed by the beast pirates and specially we saw her fear of rejection when she saw Tama leaving

Spoiler: with the SH and, in her perception, abandoning her

.

I say all that because, while in theory she could have changed, there was no incentive to do so and worse, to her letting people abandon her would trigger her trauma. Just like someone that is unable to not clean the plate after being hungry BM is unable to let people leave her life peacefully.

Does this means that she wasn't a villain? Of course, not. She was and is a villain, but I don't think she had so much freedom as you suggest. For that to happen she needs to let go of her prejudices and the more humans are used to something the harder it is to accept change. That's why her child mentality could be a chance for a change if she appears again, because she will be in a clean state and actually could be taught how to behave (if she appears again).

Well, that's it. Thanks.

 

[SparagusParty]

Thanks, man. I will just address two points because I don't think morality discussions are eligible to be made in here.



I totally agree with you. She is 100% responsible for her choices. I just disagree with this :



One of the prejudices that took a long time for me to lose in my job was thinking like this. Ingrained habits are something incredible hard to ignore and how you are raised affects the entire life of a person to a point that breaking a pattern that you follow is almost impossible even if you are aware of the issue. A basic example is someone that grew in poverty and how they deal with money: the reason why many are incapable of saving money is not because they don't know or want to be better but because the fear of losing that money to credor or someone else make the desire to indulge stronger. Or why people that are abused or have contact with bad people growing up have pretty distorted points of view.

Going back to BM, she was raised by a rapist pirate that used her naivete as a way to get power. We saw that he only saw her as a means to a end. Worse, we know that everything she did was accomplish her dream. When people rebelled against her it wasn't seen as a rebellion but as people

Spoiler: going after her dream

.
I use those images because this is the last time we saw BM as she was presented in WCI. After that she turned into a bumbling idiot and lost a lot of what made her what she was. . If you look at those images you will notice that she was taught by Streusen that she needed to dominate people to fulfill her mother wish. It's her obsession. She was taught by him that people that didn't desire to join her country aren't worth of being alive. To make matters worse she has abandonment issues.
The reason why she creates severe laws to leave the country is because she's unable to let people go. Her losing her mother at a young age let a scar that was not healed at the end of wano. She desires control because without control she will risk losing the things she love. You can see in her reaction to the picture of mother Caramel being broken.
This also leads to some of her more charitable traits. Unlike Kaido she tries to make sure that everyone under her is well protected. When she was young, Kaido was one of those protegees and she made sure that he would survive after

Spoiler: the rocks pirates fell

, we also saw it when she raged against Ulti because the villagers that had feed her had been killed by the beast pirates and specially we saw her fear of rejection when she saw Tama leaving

Spoiler: with the SH and, in her perception, abandoning her

.

I say all that because, while in theory she could have changed, there was no incentive to do so and worse, to her letting people abandon her would trigger her trauma. Just like someone that is unable to not clean the plate after being hungry BM is unable to let people leave her life peacefully.

Does this means that she wasn't a villain? Of course, not. She was and is a villain, but I don't think she had so much freedom as you suggest. For that to happen she needs to let go of her prejudices and the more humans are used to something the harder it is to accept change. That's why her child mentality could be a chance for a change if she appears again, because she will be in a clean state and actually could be taught how to behave (if she appears again).

Well, that's it. Thanks.

I see where you are coming from, and while I respect your post and view, I do respectfully disagree. We probably will not see eye to eye on this issue, which is perfectly fine.

I will share why I think the way I do, and my opinion on such matters below. But before that, I very much want to outline that I don't think poorly of you at all, @Malakhith . There is potential that some of what I say below could be interpreted as an accusation made with the interest of fitting you into some box of a type of person I would look down upon. So I wanted to make sure that I wrote that I have no such view. You sound like a pretty reasonable person, and obviously brought out a lot of compassion/empathy points which are good traits.

So, what I am about to say is more of my personal view, based on experience on the topic of change, power to change and whether the individual has a choice or not:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My experience in things like that.

My personal experience is that I know a lot of people who maintained behavioral patterns that they knew were subpar - the types of behavior that hurts both themselves and others. For example:

The guy who literally never works a day in his life, and "rides the system".

The silly single mother who over-mothers her son for her whole life, and enables bad traits by being weak on discipline.

The marijuana smoking, alcohol abusing carpenter who always speaks abusively to his employees the moment they so much as drop a 1 cent nail.

The guy whose wife wants to divorce him and thinks everything is her fault - yet only ever talked to her the way a pimp talks to his ----, and somehow was stupid enough to think he would get a happily ever after story while behaving like scumbag.

The deadbeat dad, the absentee dad.

The mom who blames her ex-husband for everything, all her problems for her whole life.

The video gaming/computer gaming addict.

Various drug addicts, and addicts of numerous things.


..... All that is just to name a few. I could give countless more examples.


While I agree that base routines - especially those imprinted in the subconscious parts of the brain - are exceedingly difficult to remove, they are not impossible. The difference between very difficult or even extremely difficult and actually impossible is a universe of difference in my view. There are times when people's most sacred dreams and goals are actually threatened by their own imprinted behavior and traits, where if they want that "happily ever after" they absolutely must overthrow those routines.

The battle place in such situations is the mind, and the greatest enemy is both self, and the enforcer of self. Or should we say, old self. Old self vs. new self.

I am of the view and opinion - and not an uneducated opinion, very observation based rather - that most of those individuals have some decision point where they catch a very strong hint that the behavior they love to promote, tolerate and defend is the very thing making their life miserable. They start to realize that they are either their own worst enemy, or the enemy of the very dream and goal they hold sacred. Usually at that point they have a tremendous opportunity to break through - and indeed, some do though it is quite rare, sadly.

What usually keeps people stuck in a bad habit or mindset are usually pretty common factors. One you hinted at is the difficulty level. Basically, in a nutshell, that is your own body/emotions fighting against you making a legit move (usually involving a lot of short-term suffering) to improve your long-term life. You catch a small gleaning of this whenever you try to quit a so-called fleshly comfort that has become detrimental due to an imbalance or misuse. I.e. Smoking, Alcohol, Marijuana, Excessive sexual stimulation - anything potentially used as a form of coping mechanism to tolerate the so-called or so-perceived "difficulty of life". (Generally, difficulty of life is different per the individual. For some, difficulty is when they break their finger nail, or can't get someone to do a job for them for free. For others, difficulty is when you are forced to accept a reality where you have an actual dedicated enemy trying to destroy your life for no real good reason at all. Still others, some other thing.)

It is important to note, that people of the Narccistic character archetype are often addicted to achieving sense of superiority over others, and stress relief through domination or perceived domination of an other. Their way of "coping with hardships" is, often, to mistreat others. I tend to be somewhat partial to Empaths, because where I am the Narcissists outnumber the Empaths by vast numbers, and typically persecute Empaths by nature in a variety of ways.

Another factor is, for example, the Enablers. The people who function as bad counselors/patronizers that constantly reassure the individual "everything is fine", "you're doing great" "you don't have to change a thing". or "There are no major consequences of this behavior" - people who tell the individual "the thing they want to hear" rather than "the thing they need to hear" when that same individual confronts their own problems and begin to ask questions - there is always someone it seems that thinks they are doing good because "they just don't want to see the person hurting" so they always counsel the person the "path of least resistance" - and for people who are very vulnerable to a heavy need or reliance on outside validation . If you get a person with a legitimately bad habit with even one single enabler, it is incredibly difficult to address that habit. If you get one with multiple enablers - a whole arrangement of bad counselors constantly giving advice to simply keep that person where they are at forever - it becomes horrifically more difficult to address the behavior.

I have a lot of experience with family members getting into obviously toxic and unhealthy relationships. I have always seen Self-Deception (People lying to themselves) and a slew of enablers (Outsiders lying to the individuals) present to amplify the difficulty of dealing with the actual issue. This is made all the worse when you introduce a concept like The Negative Confession, or Self-Fulfilling Prophecy. For example, when an individual is misdiagnosed with a mental illness and a label associated with it - these misdiagnosis do happen in real life from time to time - the individual believes the words of the one giving the diagnosis "because of this, you can't do this, you will never be able to do that, or achieve such and such" - and believing the words, they forfeit the matter because of the belief and then make no needed effort to achieve the actual thing - whatever it is.


So essentially, based on what I have seen and experienced, people make change harder than its needs to be and often forfeit their power to change by giving in to self-deception (lying to themselves that things are not as bad as they are), and enablers (people assuring them that it is not as big an issue as it really is.) - and cave in to the idea that they have no choice. They just simply surrender to default patterns and nature. I myself as an individual have many habits that in my opinion, absolutely must be changed - habits that threaten my own dreams, yet which are deeply ingrained and virtually nature - things enacted by the default impulse. Yet I hold hope that I can change those behavioural patterns in my own mental and emotional systems and override them through force of will, and I would certainly not easily forfeit the battle against myself. When people see bad habits and the battles as a matter of life and death in importance - they will make massive changes. Regardless, I also found in my own case that - with regards to my personal habits I want to change - I have had to deal with my own pleasure-loving impulse (nature to avoid harship, "nature to pursue path of least resistance", a bunch of terrible counsellors enabling the behavior I don't want, whose patronizing advances I had to reject and rather to opt for some level of alienation from even close friends - a body that fights to make me do what it wants rather than what my mind wants., and finally, the most difficult part, the actual enemies who rise up because the one person going against the grain makes them feel insecure about themselves - thus they interfere with someone else's business. I've come to the conclusion that, even when it seems insanely difficult, and even cruelly unfair, that I would conclude that it simply indeed is insanely difficult and cruelly unfair, but that I would strive and move forward inspite of that obstacle of radical difficulty. Now not only do I watch out for myself making and taking advantage of "Illegitimate excuses" - but even actual "legitimate excuses" - real good reasons for throwing in the towel, at least those that made perfect sense to me in the past... I am now turning away from them, and I believe that I am achieving some success in acquiring the change desired, only in little pieces, one bit a time.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Back to Big Mom:


So for me - I take Big Mom's case as intrinsically relatable to that concept above. Because of what I have seen and experienced, I am liable to believe that it is far more likely that Big Mom had these decision points, and simply gave in to the combination of perceived difficulty changing plus the comfort of all those enablers, than to believe that she genuinely had no opportunity to become anything other than what she became.

Again, this is my personal view only. I don't demand others to conform to it. I offer it as an explanation of my viewpoint, not a spear-wielding crusade of moral conversion.

 

[Krusher1357]

Young and fresh meme:

Me: "Ever heard of my special race, ma'am?"

This is fucking gold bruh 😂

 

[L o g i a]

She dead.Why the hate?

I could say the same about Hitler, Leopold II, Stalin, Pot and Mao.
Dumb question