General & Others Cliché is good

[Herrera95]

I'm opening this thread in defense of cliché which some usually make fun of it but when the story doesn't have it, it sucks.

For example Oda saying Luffy will not beat Kaido by punching stronger which would be cliché but at the end he does exactly that. It only sucks because of execution and this statement of Oda. Luffy is beating villains with stronger punches since Crocodile and everybody likes it.

Another cliché that could have incorporated in Wano to be a better arc.

Protagonist saving allies in last second. Luffy saving Scanbards from dying instead of 2 Yonkos doing nothing until supernovas come to fight them.

I may comeback later to add some more.

 

[Fn Lucci]

You don't manage to defend cliche at all, lmao.

Particularly, the ending sucks for Kaido because Oda built to something much bigger. And before you complain about ZKK, just put that aside completely.

Kaido is a Yonko, the second one defeated in the story. It took all of the highest powers of the Marines with the help of the Shichibukai to beat Whitebeard. There wasn't anyone who could just punch him really hard so that he could sleep and a few scrub sailors could gather him up, especially in the midst of his entire crew. He was a Yonko and the world's strongest man at one point, nothing short of death could stop him.

Kaido's intro: could not remain captive when caught, could not be executed when they tried. His suicide hobby was testing himself against nature, and upon landing in front of the Kid alliance he started alluding to how Whitebeard "did it right."

Kaido's finish? Apparently Luffy gets lucky a number of times in defeat, and after his awakening he goofs around before making a giant punch. Kaido doesn't have to take the punch, but decides to anyway and accidentally falls in some lava. Poof the end. Strongest creature has no awakening, crew of ancient Zoans have no awakening, no one in Wano sees the defeat firsthand despite being right above the capital like the other dragon, as Oda pointed out. Hear that sound? Kaido is gone and so is Orochi. Don't think about him anymore, now let's learn about Oden kids.

 

[Herrera95]

Kaido is a Yonko, the second one defeated in the story.

Third actually. Big Mom was down first.

Like I said, I will comeback to add some more. But why do you think I'm not defending cliche at all? Not saying cliche was the reason of Wano Arc sucks, just saying it would be a better arc with some cliche that people usually complain about it.

 

[duckman]

Cliche is putting sugar in your coffee. Subvert expectations. Put in salt. Never let them know your next move

 

[Midnight Delight]

Cliche is putting sugar in your coffee

White people should be banned from making Coffee.

 

[Indigo]

Cliche is putting sugar in your coffee. Subvert expectations. Put in salt. Never let them know your next move

The Last Jedi

 

[Peenix]

I'm opening this thread in defense of cliché which some usually make fun of it but when the story doesn't have it, it sucks.

For example Oda saying Luffy will not beat Kaido by punching stronger which would be cliché but at the end he does exactly that. It only sucks because of execution and this statement of Oda. Luffy is beating villains with stronger punches since Crocodile and everybody likes it.

Another cliché that could have incorporated in Wano to be a better arc.

Protagonist saving allies in last second. Luffy saving Scanbards from dying instead of 2 Yonkos doing nothing until supernovas come to fight them.

I may comeback later to add some more.

When Oda said that, he didn't mean that Kaido wouldn't lose with a punch. He meant that it wouldn't be something like
- Luffy is losing the fight
- Luffy punches really hard
- He wins
That's why he came up with Gear 5. To make Kaido's defeat believeable

 

[fakename]

I'm opening this thread in defense of cliché which some usually make fun of it but when the story doesn't have it, it sucks.

For example Oda saying Luffy will not beat Kaido by punching stronger which would be cliché but at the end he does exactly that. It only sucks because of execution and this statement of Oda. Luffy is beating villains with stronger punches since Crocodile and everybody likes it.

Another cliché that could have incorporated in Wano to be a better arc.

Protagonist saving allies in last second. Luffy saving Scanbards from dying instead of 2 Yonkos doing nothing until supernovas come to fight them.

I may comeback later to add some more.

I dunno, the punch is the classic "epic defeat" and Kaido wanted to die in a "cool" way, so in this case, when we already had the setup of Luffys toon powers, would it fit more to defeat Kaido in some ridicoulos way? Like twisting him like a ballon animal into a cucked form that the kids of Wano mock for many years?
Guess what I'm trying to say is that cliches are not things that are used too often but things that get used without really thinking, like just having a cool transformation cause it is expected without any deeper porpuse (not necesarily saying that about Gear 5)
[automerge]1655474590[/automerge]

You don't manage to defend cliche at all, lmao.

Particularly, the ending sucks for Kaido because Oda built to something much bigger. And before you complain about ZKK, just put that aside completely.

Kaido is a Yonko, the second one defeated in the story. It took all of the highest powers of the Marines with the help of the Shichibukai to beat Whitebeard. There wasn't anyone who could just punch him really hard so that he could sleep and a few scrub sailors could gather him up, especially in the midst of his entire crew. He was a Yonko and the world's strongest man at one point, nothing short of death could stop him.

Kaido's intro: could not remain captive when caught, could not be executed when they tried. His suicide hobby was testing himself against nature, and upon landing in front of the Kid alliance he started alluding to how Whitebeard "did it right."

Kaido's finish? Apparently Luffy gets lucky a number of times in defeat, and after his awakening he goofs around before making a giant punch. Kaido doesn't have to take the punch, but decides to anyway and accidentally falls in some lava. Poof the end. Strongest creature has no awakening, crew of ancient Zoans have no awakening, no one in Wano sees the defeat firsthand despite being right above the capital like the other dragon, as Oda pointed out. Hear that sound? Kaido is gone and so is Orochi. Don't think about him anymore, now let's learn about Oden kids.

Well said

 

[Peenix]

I dunno, the punch is the classic "epic defeat" and Kaido wanted to die in a "cool" way, so in this case, when we already had the setup of Luffys toon powers, would it fit more to defeat Kaido in some ridicoulos way? Like twisting him like a ballon animal into a cucked form that the kids of Wano mock for many years?
Guess what I'm trying to say is that cliches are not things that are used too often but things that get used without really thinking, like just having a cool transformation cause it is expected without any deeper porpuse (not necesarily saying that about Gear 5)

Yeah I don't hate the way Luffy vs Kaido ended like a lot of people here do. But Kaido being defeated in some cartoony gag would've been a lot better like you said

 

[Santoryu D Bazooka]

The Last Jedi

I am actually glad we didn't get that finally for Wano. "Rei Skywalker".

 

[Fn Lucci]

When Oda said that, he didn't mean that Kaido wouldn't lose with a punch. He meant that it wouldn't be something like
- Luffy is losing the fight
- Luffy punches really hard
- He wins
That's why he came up with Gear 5. To make Kaido's defeat believeable

That's exactly what happened.

Third actually. Big Mom was down first.

Like I said, I will comeback to add some more. But why do you think I'm not defending cliche at all? Not saying cliche was the reason of Wano Arc sucks, just saying it would be a better arc with some cliche that people usually complain about it.

Big Mom would be a subversion but ironically that's bad in some ways, if so. I didn't really expect her back at Elbaf like some people did, but Luffy made a point to tell her she'd be after Kaido. Katakuri faced him for the last time to ask if he'd come back to fight her and he said of course. Now poof she's gone too in the same flaming puff that took away Kaido. Maybe Katakuri should have been on Kid's jock instead? Lol.

The defeat of Kaido would have beem better if Oda didn't spend so much time putting Kaido outside of typical confines. We knew there were levels beyond Crocodile so of course the Marines ending worked. Same for Doflamingo, who could definitely get taken out by the government at this point even if he beat Luffy. Building up Kaido as this great beast, literally the world's strongest creature, whose henchman Jack is too tough to capture. and then he's just knocked out and no one thinks about it anymore lol. There's something atypical about that really, but it's not good. The part of it that is cliche... "psyche! This is just like every other fight." Oh great.

 

[Peenix]

That's exactly what happened.

Luffy was winning as soon as he unlocked Gear 5. The punch was just how he ended the fight. That's not what I'm describing at all

 

[Herrera95]

When Oda said that, he didn't mean that Kaido wouldn't lose with a punch. He meant that it wouldn't be something like
- Luffy is losing the fight
- Luffy punches really hard
- He wins
That's why he came up with Gear 5. To make Kaido's defeat believeable

What fight of Luffy was like this? Maybe Lucci only, and it is the best fight of him. Katakuri too but I hate it for the ending and fandom loves it.

Luffy vs Crocodile, he learns how to hit Croco then win.

Luffy vs Enel, he uses that golden ball that Enel used against him and win.

Luffy vs Doflamingo, he uses a new gear that upgrade his haki. He was already winning in first round of G4. It was actually useless ODa making him using 2 rounds against Doflamingo.

Other fights Luffy is winning since beginning, or evenly matched or teamfight.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Luffy was winning as soon as he unlocked Gear 5. The punch was just how he ended the fight. That's not what I'm describing at all

Luffy breaks even on a solid looking gatling. Rocks Kaido's shit with that one face punch. Every other thing is a failing gag. Everything he actually names, Kaido manages to dismiss. At one point he even loses Gear 5 because of his exhaustion. Without that finishing blow Gear 5 really didn't matter

 

[fakename]

That's exactly what happened.

Big Mom would be a subversion but ironically that's bad in some ways, if so. I didn't really expect her back at Elbaf like some people did, but Luffy made a point to tell her she'd be after Kaido. Katakuri faced him for the last time to ask if he'd come back to fight her and he said of course. Now poof she's gone too in the same flaming puff that took away Kaido. Maybe Katakuri should have been on Kid's jock instead? Lol.

The defeat of Kaido would have beem better if Oda didn't spend so much time putting Kaido outside of typical confines. We knew there were levels beyond Crocodile so of course the Marines ending worked. Same for Doflamingo, who could definitely get taken out by the government at this point even if he beat Luffy. Building up Kaido as this great beast, literally the world's strongest creature, whose henchman Jack is too tough to capture. and then he's just knocked out and no one thinks about it anymore lol. There's something atypical about that really, but it's not good. The part of it that is cliche... "psyche! This is just like every other fight." Oh great.

Yeah that's the real problem with repeating the formula - not that it's predictable but that it starts to lose the content, the connection to the whole and actuall progression.
It becomes a videogame, where everything is the same, just levels increase, no real progression.
Gear 5 could be the real next step with showing that it isn't the standart cool showdown but that the power of laughter and joy is what is needed to beat a villian.
Alternativly Kaido could have stayed to strong for a 1 on 1 and be defeated by a group which would actually work with the theme of "Luffys greatest stregth is making allies" and an evolution from a world ruled by hierachies of badguys to a world of mutual cooperation to defeat evil and make everyone prosper.
But guess big punch is cooler...

 

[Herrera95]

I dunno, the punch is the classic "epic defeat" and Kaido wanted to die in a "cool" way, so in this case, when we already had the setup of Luffys toon powers, would it fit more to defeat Kaido in some ridicoulos way? Like twisting him like a ballon animal into a cucked form that the kids of Wano mock for many years?
Guess what I'm trying to say is that cliches are not things that are used too often but things that get used without really thinking, like just having a cool transformation cause it is expected without any deeper porpuse (not necesarily saying that about Gear 5)

I'm defending the punch as a classic epic defeat. The problem was Oda statement about the punch.

There is literally no setup for Luffy toon power.

I didn't understand the meaning of your comment. I'm defending cliché, defeating Kaido with a stronger punch. I'm not going to defend G5 because it doesn't make any sense. But a new gear/transformation because it was expected it is perfectly fine.

No only that but Oda is known by mixing mythology in One Piece. Everybody expected Tiger vs Dragon mythology to be used at any point. If not by Zoro than by Luffy new G4 transformation. Or even G5 but not ridiculous like this.

 

[humanbeing2022]

you have only yourself to blame when you understand that Luffy will win with something other than a punch. it is a misunderstanding what Oda meant more like not a normal physical punch, more he gave Luffy ACoA and ACoC he used them to make his Punch stronger and so it is not the same physical punch anymore.
if Oda said that Zoro will not just win because of Strong Slash what do you expect him to do? so he should not use a slash to win?
It is like you people because of some hint here and there that you believed that Zoro is gonna back to the roof , and that Zoro is gonna be the one who kill Kaido and the whole ZKK debates.

 

[fakename]

I'm defending the punch as a classic epic defeat. The problem was Oda statement about the punch.

There is literally no setup for Luffy toon power.

I didn't understand the meaning of your comment. I'm defending cliché, defeating Kaido with a stronger punch. I'm not going to defend G5 because it doesn't make any sense. But a new gear/transformation because it was expected it is perfectly fine.

No only that but Oda is known by mixing mythology in One Piece. Everybody expected Tiger vs Dragon mythology to be used at any point. If not by Zoro than by Luffy new G4 transformation. Or even G5 but not ridiculous like this.

I guess people just find it boring that "how does Luffy defeat the super strong opponent to who he lost three times in a row by just trying to punch him harder? by some change in strategy and aproach? nah, just punch him harder"
It just seems overplayed and standard, with all the powerups just comming out of nowhere to push luffy to be stronger, so when finay gear 5 (yes an asspull that ruined lots of lore but thats not the point) seems to be something unique it is kinda lame when it still ends with just punching harder.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Kaido isn’t done yet, ZKK is still happening

 

[Hamlette]

Kaido isn’t done yet, ZKK is still happening

You need to adjust the time zone on your laptop.......your all the way back in chapter 1020. The new wave is ZKA, Zoro kills Admirals in a glorious 1v3.