General & Others Diable Jambe/Ifrit Jambe Apreciation and Discussion thread

[Sadistic Senpai]

The thing that urks me is that Sanji had magical character growth within a 3 day span. He barely had any internal conflict to wear it. He went from trying to throw away the suit to saying he needs to wear it to protect his crew. No other scenes inside. He just went through that whole character switch offpaneled. And I think it was rushed and lazy writing from Oda's side.

That's because Sanji was already on emotional roller coaster during WCI itself. And it all culminated with Sanji "Accepting his ties and blood relations" when he cried for Luffy's help saying "I know that they are scum, and I don't owe them anything" but I want to save them because they are my family.

So, Sanji's internal struggle that you are actually wanting to see, already was happening during WCI itself my friend. His resolution with his family, and his internal struggle was THERE IN WCI arc. And not after it.

And his words then to his father inside Capone's castle, ended it.

And then the icing on the cake was actually when the Vinsmoke came for Sanji's and Luffy's help at the end, specially with his siblings.

You are asking for things that was ALREADY happening to him in WCI. And that's why I disagree my friend. And I think that he didn't need to have any internal struggle in Wano about the issue. His character was supposed to have "GROWN" in WCI ending. And not in the arc after! And he did with all the scene I mentioned

Post automatically merged: Feb 16, 2020

:cheers:

You already know that EVERY person here complained about Sanji using the Raid suit, and always hating on Sanji's perverted side, would actually use it for Woman's bath if it was fallen in their hands hahahaha. They all just try to act all high and dignified LOL

 

[Chrono]

That's because Sanji was already on emotional roller coaster during WCI itself. And it all culminated with Sanji "Accepting his ties and blood relations" when he cried for Luffy's help saying "I know that they are scum, and I don't owe them anything" but I want to save them because they are my family.

So, Sanji's internal struggle that you are actually wanting to see, already was happening during WCI itself my friend. His resolution with his family, and his internal struggle was THERE IN WCI arc. And not after it.

And his words then to his father inside Capone's castle, ended it.

And then the icing on the cake was actually when the Vinsmoke came for Sanji's and Luffy's help at the end, specially with his siblings.

You are asking for things that was ALREADY happening to him in WCI. And that's why I disagree my friend. And I think that he didn't need to have any internal struggle in Wano about the issue. His character was supposed to have "GROWN" in WCI ending. And not in the arc after! And he did with all the scene I mentioned

Im talking about after WCI. He tried throwing away, saying he will never rely on science and help from that family. And what not.

He still clearly hates them shown by his reaction to the bounty.

So thats where I am confused. Him magically wearing the suit ( even before he found out its an invisible suit). He barely even fought P1 and straight away whipped out the RS, no internal struggle at all.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

When the bath house chapter came out, everyone including Luffy fans was bashing Sanji so much for using the RS to peep Nami's body. Sanji achieved his life dream and rescued everyone in the bath house which is nice. And then those people calling Sanji a rapist even though Hawkins was the one to make Nami's body towel fall off XD. If those guys have the RS they will definitely do the same thing like Sanji did but they still blamed Sanji lol.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Im talking about after WCI. He tried throwing away, saying he will never rely on science and help from that family. And what not.

He still clearly hates them shown by his reaction to the bounty.

So thats where I am confused. Him magically wearing the suit ( even before he found out its an invisible suit). He barely even fought P1 and straight away whipped out the RS, no internal struggle at all.

That was just for fun comedy scene. Specially with Luffy and Chopper and saying the suit will give Beam
You do not have to be so literal about every word that every character says.

As an example, Go back to Sanji vs Mr.2
Mr.2 used Usopp's face, and Sanji kicked him
Mr.2 said "you would attack your friend"?
And Sanji replies and talks about "People are heart, and appearances doesn't matter t him"

Only for the next moment Mr.2 uses nami's body, and Sanji falls into te trap.

So, when it comes to comedy scenes, you guys SHOULDN'T take the words as "Holy" and that's what he believes.

You should look into the "dramatic scenes" and take the words and actions of the dramatic scene OVER the words that happen on a relaxed, chill timing where comedy can be the main theme.

For example, when Sanji was talking about using the Suit against Page1 and that they are against a Yonko, and pride can cost him if he stayed stubborn, that was a dramatic serious timing for his character. That time on the ship, the crew was just fucking around, and chilling, the atmosphere is not serious at all. And I think people should actually not take the words of character in chill time as serious and as if it represent what this character value is!

Another example for another character would actually be Usopp.

Remember the dialog he had with Nami after Law's crew was accused of leaking the info???

Usopp joked about that if it was him being captured, he would have spilled the beans and told the enemy the info in mere minutes. Sure, Usopp stated that. But do you actually believe that if Usopp was captured and interrogated, he would tell anything???
In fact, the opposite! Usopp would take the beating of his life, tortured, and if he told them info, it would be a false, trap for them! Because we should take Usopp's actions in serious situations and not his words on random and chill situations with Nami and co.

I hope it's clear.

So, yeah Sanji was acting like he doesn't want. But basically think of Sanji at that particular moment on the ship as a "Tsundere" character, who on the outside acting hateful towards it, but in the inside, he already had his resolution with his family. I hope it's clear

 

[Zenos7]

When the bath house chapter came out, everyone including Luffy fans was bashing Sanji so much for using the RS to peep Nami's body. Sanji achieved his life dream and rescued everyone in the bath house which is nice. And then those people calling Sanji a rapist even though Hawkins was the one to make Nami's body towel fall off XD. If those guys have the RS they will definitely do the same thing like Sanji did but they still blamed Sanji lol.

not to mention it was completely public and open to guys anyway.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

not to mention it was completely public and open to guys anyway.

Lol, some fans are like:

Drake is weak with women, and he cannot handle them: OMG, Drake is funny
The same thing for Sanji: OMG, Sanji should be suied, Nami should take away his Raid Suit, Sanji should stop this... Sanji is annoying...etc

LOL, Same type of men, different reaction from people hahaha

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

not to mention it was completely public and open to guys anyway.

Exactly:smithnie:

 

[Chrono]

That was just for fun comedy scene. Specially with Luffy and Chopper and saying the suit will give Beam
You do not have to be so literal about every word that every character says.

As an example, Go back to Sanji vs Mr.2
Mr.2 used Usopp's face, and Sanji kicked him
Mr.2 said "you would attack your friend"?
And Sanji replies and talks about "People are heart, and appearances doesn't matter t him"

Only for the next moment Mr.2 uses nami's body, and Sanji falls into te trap.

So, when it comes to comedy scenes, you guys SHOULDN'T take the words as "Holy" and that's what he believes.

You should look into the "dramatic scenes" and take the words and actions of the dramatic scene OVER the words that happen on a relaxed, chill timing where comedy can be the main theme.

For example, when Sanji was talking about using the Suit against Page1 and that they are against a Yonko, and pride can cost him if he stayed stubborn, that was a dramatic serious timing for his character. That time on the ship, the crew was just fucking around, and chilling, the atmosphere is not serious at all. And I think people should actually not take the words of character in chill time as serious and as if it represent what this character value is!

Another example for another character would actually be Usopp.

Remember the dialog he had with Nami after Law's crew was accused of leaking the info???

Usopp joked about that if it was him being captured, he would have spilled the beans and told the enemy the info in mere minutes. Sure, Usopp stated that. But do you actually believe that if Usopp was captured and interrogated, he would tell anything???
In fact, the opposite! Usopp would take the beating of his life, tortured, and if he told them info, it would be a false, trap for them! Because we should take Usopp's actions in serious situations and not his words on random and chill situations with Nami and co.

I hope it's clear.

So, yeah Sanji was acting like he doesn't want. But basically think of Sanji at that particular moment on the ship as a "Tsundere" character, who on the outside acting hateful towards it, but in the inside, he already had his resolution with his family. I hope it's clear

Come on man you cant justify it as a comedy scene. And even so comedy scenes have truth. If we were to dismiss comedy scenes then it would mean Sanji isnt a pervert and Luffy isnt an idiot. Comedy scenes and gags scenes should only not be used for powerscaling.


Anyways it barely looked like a comedy scene. Only Luffy and Chopper were comedic. Sanji didnt say it in a funny way or anything. He was serious.

Then he magically flip flops after hitting P1 once. He didnt even try any DJ attacks or HM. Just one base kick to determine he needs the RS. And thats where the lazy writing comes. Oda cant be asked to draw a natural character growth for Sanji.....so he just skips ahead. Also explains why he offpaneled the final hit or final attacks. He cant be asked focusing much on Sanji.....he just wants to prepare him as quick as possible so he can focus on useless things that amount to nothing.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Come on man you cant justify it as a comedy scene. And even so comedy scenes have truth. If we were to dismiss comedy scenes then it would mean Sanji isnt a pervert and Luffy isnt an idiot. Comedy scenes and gags scenes should only not be used for powerscaling.


Anyways it barely looked like a comedy scene. Only Luffy and Chopper were comedic. Sanji didnt say it in a funny way or anything. He was serious.

Then he magically flip flops after hitting P1 once. He didnt even try any DJ attacks or HM. Just one base kick to determine he needs the RS. And thats where the lazy writing comes. Oda cant be asked to draw a natural character growth for Sanji.....so he just skips ahead. Also explains why he offpaneled the final hit or final attacks. He cant be asked focusing much on Sanji.....he just wants to prepare him as quick as possible so he can focus on useless things that amount to nothing.

I'm not saying to dismiss everything.
I'm saying that take the scenes of comedy at grain of salt. But it's not the all be all for this said character.
Sanji sure has some bitterness about Germa's technology, and despite his resolution at WCI, sure he still didn't transform from hating them into liking them.
Not at all, I can agree on that with you. HOWEVER, he came into the conclusion that he accepted them that they are "family" during his scene with Luffy.

And he ended up saving them. And in return, they saved him and Luffy at the end.

And by doing so.. the "Tension" between him and his family is not completely gone, it's still there, but it "decreased" by a large margin I daresay. And if you don't really aknowledge this fact, then I suggest you my friend to reanalyze your read on WCI. Because that's definitely some seeds Oda was planting during WCI.

Now, because the "tension" decreased, but at the same time, it is still there. Sanji's character on the ship, he acted like he doesn't want it... but it really doesn't mean that what he said with his mouth represent everything he felt for. Because as I stated, he akowledged that he's a Vinsmoke. and they are his family during WCI.

In fact, the same scene you are talking about is proving my point. Sanji HATED that his Wanted poster had "Vinsmoke" in it. Bu at the same time, during WCI, he did aknowledge them as his family. And when he used the Raid suit, he said "just using this doesn't make me part of Germa"

Do you see what I'm trying to get at???

All of those are "psychological thoughts" that Sanji is going through. Where at one scene, he's admitting his connection, and at the other scene he is denying it. It's all psychological at the moment for him. And the same way you guys are thinking about it, Sanji already is thinking about it in his mind. But he decided in Wano that the "Alliance/Friends" have the priority over his psychological problems and his internal struggle about using the Raid Suit.

Which is why I'm saying it shows "growth" of character. Sanji using the Raid Suit, WITHOUT having lots of struggle is the PROOF for his growth.

You are asking for Sanji to have "Internal struggle" all over again about using the Raid Suit in Wano, but that struggle can ONLY happen if Sanji is facing a hard time during a big fight. And this basically shows regression of character and not progression with all respect. Because Sanji using the Raid Suit After having big struggle shows that he used it because he was cornered and because his ass was handed to him, and he would have lost if it wasn't for Germa's power he despises.

BUT Sanji by himself, after entering Wano, and after hearing Luffy's words to keep it. And slowly inside himself, he came to te resolution that this crew is about to enter a big war against a Yonko, and it's very important to use every sigle card up his sleeve for the cause. And Sanji did it without being cornered, which shows tremendous character growth. He did not ned to have muc internal struggle about it, BECAUSE the tension between him and his family has decreased by large margin, and yeah I agree it is still there which is why he's still replying to Law that he doesn't like them too. But it's not a hatred that is SOOO HUGE to the point he wouldn't use the suit and power of their technology for his own nakama and allies.

And hey, I'm not asking you to be convinced.
I'm just saying that for me personally, I'm TOTALLY sold! And I think it's PERFECT.

 

[Chrono]

I'm not saying to dismiss everything.
I'm saying that take the scenes of comedy at grain of salt. But it's not the all be all for this said character.
Sanji sure has some bitterness about Germa's technology, and despite his resolution at WCI, sure he still didn't transform from hating them into liking them.
Not at all, I can agree on that with you. HOWEVER, he came into the conclusion that he accepted them that they are "family" during his scene with Luffy.

And he ended up saving them. And in return, they saved him and Luffy at the end.

And by doing so.. the "Tension" between him and his family is not completely gone, it's still there, but it "decreased" by a large margin I daresay. And if you don't really aknowledge this fact, then I suggest you my friend to reanalyze your read on WCI. Because that's definitely some seeds Oda was planting during WCI.

Now, because the "tension" decreased, but at the same time, it is still there. Sanji's character on the ship, he acted like he doesn't want it... but it really doesn't mean that what he said with his mouth represent everything he felt for. Because as I stated, he akowledged that he's a Vinsmoke. and they are his family during WCI.

In fact, the same scene you are talking about is proving my point. Sanji HATED that his Wanted poster had "Vinsmoke" in it. Bu at the same time, during WCI, he did aknowledge them as his family. And when he used the Raid suit, he said "just using this doesn't make me part of Germa"

Do you see what I'm trying to get at???

All of those are "psychological thoughts" that Sanji is going through. Where at one scene, he's admitting his connection, and at the other scene he is denying it. It's all psychological at the moment for him. And the same way you guys are thinking about it, Sanji already is thinking about it in his mind. But he decided in Wano that the "Alliance/Friends" have the priority over his psychological problems and his internal struggle about using the Raid Suit.

Which is why I'm saying it shows "growth" of character. Sanji using the Raid Suit, WITHOUT having lots of struggle is the PROOF for his growth.

You are asking for Sanji to have "Internal struggle" all over again about using the Raid Suit in Wano, but that struggle can ONLY happen if Sanji is facing a hard time during a big fight. And this basically shows regression of character and not progression with all respect. Because Sanji using the Raid Suit After having big struggle shows that he used it because he was cornered and because his ass was handed to him, and he would have lost if it wasn't for Germa's power he despises.

BUT Sanji by himself, after entering Wano, and after hearing Luffy's words to keep it. And slowly inside himself, he came to te resolution that this crew is about to enter a big war against a Yonko, and it's very important to use every sigle card up his sleeve for the cause. And Sanji did it without being cornered, which shows tremendous character growth. He did not ned to have muc internal struggle about it, BECAUSE the tension between him and his family has decreased by large margin, and yeah I agree it is still there which is why he's still replying to Law that he doesn't like them too. But it's not a hatred that is SOOO HUGE to the point he wouldn't use the suit and power of their technology for his own nakama and allies.

And hey, I'm not asking you to be convinced.
I'm just saying that for me personally, I'm TOTALLY sold! And I think it's PERFECT.

He literally told Law he hates them. Has his hate decreased for them. Sure maybe. However his hate is still there for them.

Sanji hasnt progressed at all. He still hates them, but instead now he is using their technology whilst still hating them. If you think Sanji secretly loves them...you are wrong. Their is barely any progression in his relationship with them. Or non that is shown.

However there is progression in how they view him. And thats why I still think there will be Sanji/Vinsmokes stuff left.

The last time in WCI Sanji showed how he feels about the Vins, is when he told Judge to fuck off and leave him alone. After that they save him in Caocao, however he shows no actual forgiveness to them.

Then after WCI he is still claiming he hates them. And will never wear the suit. We all believe his words because up till then all he has shown is pure hate for the Vins. However once he faces P1 he magically wants to use it. No hint of him liking the Vins. Nope instead still saying he hates them.

I dont see where you believe Sanji has started to like them came from. Could you show me a panel ?

Ofcourse Sanji could have internally changed his mind. But how is...us...the viewers supposed to know this. Its like BM magically forgiving Luffy and wanting to ally with him. It makes no sense from him to jump from point A to point B.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

He literally told Law he hates them. Has his hate decreased for them. Sure maybe. However his hate is still there for them.

Sanji hasnt progressed at all. He still hates them, but instead now he is using their technology whilst still hating them. If you think Sanji secretly loves them...you are wrong. Their is barely any progression in his relationship with them. Or non that is shown.

However there is progression in how they view him. And thats why I still think there will be Sanji/Vinsmokes stuff left.

The last time in WCI Sanji showed how he feels about the Vins, is when he told Judge to fuck off and leave him alone. After that they save him in Caocao, however he shows no actual forgiveness to them.

Then after WCI he is still claiming he hates them. And will never wear the suit. We all believe his words because up till then all he has shown is pure hate for the Vins. However once he faces P1 he magically wants to use it. No hint of him liking the Vins. Nope instead still saying he hates them.

I dont see where you believe Sanji has started to like them came from. Could you show me a panel ?

Ofcourse Sanji could have internally changed his mind. But how is...us...the viewers supposed to know this. Its like BM magically forgiving Luffy and wanting to ally with him. It makes no sense from him to jump from point A to point B.

Based on your reply, you haven't read my post
:cheers:
Because I stated he still hates them, and NOT love them. And I stated everything you mentioned. Which is why him taking it upon himself to use the technology despite him "not liking them" is Growth.
Because he's putting aside his hate/dignity for the greater good he can do with this technology.

For Sanji to use the tech ONLY AFTER he likes them. Or only if he was cornered.. it does not show growth. It shows only how selfish he is.

 

[True God Moe]

But raisin is with a black permanent blade?? 😂😂😂

Wait he does? Damn and Sanji one-shot him easily XD.

Guess Black Blades doesn't mean your up there. That theory got disprove hard that chapter.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

still like to see that exoskeleton even without a raid suit
and blue fire.

 

[True God Moe]

still like to see that exoskeleton even without a raid suit
and blue fire.

Probably will happen since RS could unlock it out of him and plus don't see Sanji having needing a suit for power much as he fine fighting without it and never stated he needs it each time to fight someone after getting and using it. He fought Drake without needing it, so proves he doesn't use it much for power suit really.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

still like to see that exoskeleton even without a raid suit
and blue fire.

I'm a big time exoskeleton cheerleader hahahaha. I hope it happens as well.
However, I do not think it will happen UNTIL Sanji ave "Acceptance" about who he is "being Germa"
It was shown on so many shonen manga or Seinin or different genre, is that when someone "Accept everything about himself" that's when true strength blooms.

 

[trav]

Wait he does? Damn and Sanji one-shot him easily XD.

Guess Black Blades doesn't mean your up there. That theory got disprove hard that chapter.

not that anything you said holds any values, but for the record.

creating a black blade is the feat. holding one only requires the physically capability to grab objects.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Wait he does? Damn and Sanji one-shot him easily XD.

Guess Black Blades doesn't mean your up there. That theory got disprove hard that chapter.

Toei ruined it by making Raisen get back up and attack Pekoms LOL

Not only that, they made Solung Pekoms attack Sanji and fuck him up. LOL

Toei did Sanji dirty in WCI
Almost every damn important scene he had was ruined

This is why I'm hoping Raid Suit in few weeks is NOT ruined! I have higher expectation considering Wano arc has better animation and direction than EVER BEFORE

 

[True God Moe]

not that anything you said holds any values, but for the record.

creating a black blade is the feat. holding one only requires the physically capability to grab objects.

Kinda does if you easily take out someone who has an black blade like that. Showing Raisin wasn't a fodder if he did that by Zoro-Fans logic as it means black blades are top tiers of all. You can't back out now that turning against your way of what you originally thought.

So again black blades doesn't make you above others if your not skill yourself or power to compete with someone else. Shown when Jozu and Vista embarrassed Mihawk who was trying to go after WB and Luffy and couldn't anymore. Same with Zoro while having Shusui and still lost in his fights. If skill is not up there, your not above others just because you create or hold black blade. Just side thing, not pinnacle of strength as deep top tiers don't permanent their weapons because they don't rely on it and are diverse in their fighting.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2020

Toei ruined it by making Raisen get back up and attack Pekoms LOL

Not only that, they made Solung Pekoms attack Sanji and fuck him up. LOL

Toei did Sanji dirty in WCI
Almost every damn important scene he had was ruined

This is why I'm hoping Raid Suit in few weeks is NOT ruined! I have higher expectation considering Wano arc has better animation and direction than EVER BEFORE

It's filler man, we don't use that much as canon to be honest. Though he did come back later among ship for BMP crew for Wano, but doesn't erase Sanji easily took him out.

Plus not really as he did damage Daifuku a lot and beaten another BMP member easily by breaking their blades. He even took on Daifuku and Oven at same time.

Wouldn't say they ruined him honestly especially everyone believe manga more than anime end of the day.

Nah, doubt it. It's important moment in manga and plus it's by different animation team this time around, so we can expect difference in many ways.

 

[trav]

Kinda does if you easily take out someone who has an black blade like that. Showing Raisin wasn't a fodder if he did that by Zoro-Fans logic as it means black blades are top tiers of all. You can't back out now that turning against your way of what you originally thought.

So again black blades doesn't make you above others if your not skill yourself or power to compete with someone else. Shown when Jozu and Vista embarrassed Mihawk who was trying to go after WB and Luffy and couldn't anymore. Same with Zoro while having Shusui and still lost in his fights. If skill is not up there, your not above others just because you create or hold black blade. Just side thing, not pinnacle of strength as deep top tiers don't permanent their weapons because they don't rely on it and are diverse in their fighting.

there is no arguing with your logic :cheers:

 

[pedxi]

btw i love Sanji's base kicks more than DJ

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