Speculations Do you think the Ancient Kingdom existed in the 1st World?
- Thread starter Impact
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Well, we know Joyboy was a citizen of the Ancient Kingdom. So, we know it existed prior to the Second World.
The biggest x-factor is if the Ancient Kingdom was formed after the disaster of the First World, or before that. It could have survived the rampage of the Hellflame Serpent and the Earth God. Or the Ancient Kingdom could have arisen from the ashes of whatever came before it. Is there a "Even Ancient-er Kingdom" that precedes the Ancient Kingdom, or not?
I think...it's probably most likely that the society of the First World was damaged by the events of the Serpent and Earth God attacking, but not totally overthrown. So, the Ancient Kingdom likely existed in both the First and Second Worlds, but after the events of the First World, they were much reduced from what they had been. And the events of the First World only truly ended when the 20 Kingdoms overthrew the Ancient Kingdom by the end of the Second World. There may have been constant, low-level skirmishes going on during the entire interval between the First and Second Worlds. I feel like that's "cleaner", but we'll see.
I don't expect the Ancient Kingdom to be a complete utopia, either. Chances are, they had their own problems. So, while the technology might get restored, I don't think the goal will be to restore the Ancient Kingdom, itself. I think the goal will be to replace both the Ancient Kingdom AND the World Government with something better. But, again, we'll see.
But, Oda could do just about anything he likes. Most of what we know is really vague. It could do any number of directions.
The biggest x-factor is if the Ancient Kingdom was formed after the disaster of the First World, or before that. It could have survived the rampage of the Hellflame Serpent and the Earth God. Or the Ancient Kingdom could have arisen from the ashes of whatever came before it. Is there a "Even Ancient-er Kingdom" that precedes the Ancient Kingdom, or not?
I think...it's probably most likely that the society of the First World was damaged by the events of the Serpent and Earth God attacking, but not totally overthrown. So, the Ancient Kingdom likely existed in both the First and Second Worlds, but after the events of the First World, they were much reduced from what they had been. And the events of the First World only truly ended when the 20 Kingdoms overthrew the Ancient Kingdom by the end of the Second World. There may have been constant, low-level skirmishes going on during the entire interval between the First and Second Worlds. I feel like that's "cleaner", but we'll see.
I don't expect the Ancient Kingdom to be a complete utopia, either. Chances are, they had their own problems. So, while the technology might get restored, I don't think the goal will be to restore the Ancient Kingdom, itself. I think the goal will be to replace both the Ancient Kingdom AND the World Government with something better. But, again, we'll see.
But, Oda could do just about anything he likes. Most of what we know is really vague. It could do any number of directions.
It's generally because you could take the clues we know, and take them in multiple different directions. Various details could turn out to be wrong, or exaggerations. And there's a LOT Oda isn't telling us, yet, which could completely change how we see things. Plus, Oda could straight-up change his mind, and retcon a few of the details completely. Since the story is still being written, it could take us someplace even Oda doesn't expect it to go, right now.
Oda loves to leave clues that only work in hindsight. He seems to WANT us to read this story multiple times, with different points of view in mind. So, it's generally hard to say if something is going to be simple and straightforward, or a twist he's planning on revealing later.
With the Ancient Kingdom specifically, I do have my pet theories. But, the outline of what we have is so vague, that he really could take it anywhere.
I will say, I think the biggest clue for how old the Ancient Kingdom is will likely turn out to be the various buildings we see around the World.
We first see a glimpse of the Ancient Kingdom while Clover is talking about it to the World Government agents on Ohara. (Chapter 395)
Then we see a similar building that the Revolutionary Army is using as it's base on Baltigo. Similar "windows". Similar "rounded" shapes in it's construction. (Chapter 440)
And most recently, we've seen the 3000 year old lab on Elbaph. Again, similar construction. Similar shapes. (Chapter 1144).
These three buildings may be connected, or they may not. But, if we assume they are, that could mean the Ancient Kingdom existed since at least 3000 years ago.
We know from SBS 113, that we're currently in year 1541 of the Sea Circle Calendar. And 4131 of the Heaven Calendar.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_113
The Void Century only happened 800 years ago. Which means, something big probably happened 1541 years ago, and also 4131 years ago, in order to justify the creation of brand new calendar systems. And it wasn't the events of the Void Century or the Second World.
So, here's what I think the timeline looks like:
5000 years ago, the Tree of Knowledge on Ohara begins growing. (Chapter 392). So, likely, something happened 5000 years ago, that was commemorated by planting this tree. (In my own theories, this could be when Humans first arrived on this planet, but that's a story for another time.)
869 years pass.
I think the Ancient Kingdom was established 4131 years ago. In my head, this is when the Ancient Kingdom was first formed. This is kind of backed up by Alabasta's castle being mentioned to be around 4000 years old. (Chapter 188) And this would be when the Age of Heaven Calendar begins.
Then we have 2590 years of relative peace.
The events of the First World in the Chapter 1138 Mural would then happen 1541 years ago. The Ancient Kingdom makes it move to "mine" the Forbidden Sun in the center of the planet. Leading to the Hellflame Serpent and Earth God to attack, and the rise of the Sun God Nika. And ending with the Ancient Kingdom most likely gaining the Forbidden Sun for itself, in the process. The Age of the Sea Circle Calendar is created, restarting with a new year 0 AoSC, circa 2590 AoH.
Then we have 600 years of more relative peace. The Forbidden Sun is used to rebuild after the War. And to subjugate certain groups of people, creating the resentment that will come to a head during the Second World. Various races are enslaved such as the Tontotta and Fishmen, likley to aid in the rebuilding. Moon stuff happens. The Forbidden Sun's power likely leads to the "utopia" that Joyboy grew up in during the Second World. (Chapter 1114)
Then, 900 years ago, Joyboy the First Pirate rises, circa 641 AoSC or 3231 AoH. The Forest God "sends forth it's devils", likely creating the first Devil Fruits. The 20 Kingdoms unite to overthrow the Ancient Kingdom. The 20 Kingdoms "slay the sun", likely meaning they destroy the Forbidden Sun mined during the First World. And the 20 Kingdoms become the Celestial Dragons. The Sea God rages. All ending 800 years ago, circa 741 AoSC or 3331 AoH. And the new Celestial Dragons likely erase the last 100 years of recorded history to hide their own war crimes and Joyboy's involvement and existance, creating the Void Century we know of today.
Then we have 800 years of relative peace again, until Luffy starts his journey two years ago. The 2-year timeskip happens. And now we're up to the present, in the year 1541 AoSC or 4131 AoH. Now, firmly in the Third World.
But, this is a lot of speculation. And do you see how you kind of have to cobble together what happened over DECADES of the story in the manga? From offhand remarks and things mentioned in passing from various chapters? It's not clear if this is the way the puzzle pieces are supposed to fit together or not. We don't have a larger picture of what happened, yet.
So, there's a LOT that Oda could add to this, to change everything we know. If Oda doesn't just retcon a few things, if he ends up changing his mind about the details. So, yes...we'll see if any of this is accurate or not.
Oda loves to leave clues that only work in hindsight. He seems to WANT us to read this story multiple times, with different points of view in mind. So, it's generally hard to say if something is going to be simple and straightforward, or a twist he's planning on revealing later.
With the Ancient Kingdom specifically, I do have my pet theories. But, the outline of what we have is so vague, that he really could take it anywhere.
I will say, I think the biggest clue for how old the Ancient Kingdom is will likely turn out to be the various buildings we see around the World.
We first see a glimpse of the Ancient Kingdom while Clover is talking about it to the World Government agents on Ohara. (Chapter 395)
Then we see a similar building that the Revolutionary Army is using as it's base on Baltigo. Similar "windows". Similar "rounded" shapes in it's construction. (Chapter 440)
And most recently, we've seen the 3000 year old lab on Elbaph. Again, similar construction. Similar shapes. (Chapter 1144).
These three buildings may be connected, or they may not. But, if we assume they are, that could mean the Ancient Kingdom existed since at least 3000 years ago.
We know from SBS 113, that we're currently in year 1541 of the Sea Circle Calendar. And 4131 of the Heaven Calendar.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_113
The Void Century only happened 800 years ago. Which means, something big probably happened 1541 years ago, and also 4131 years ago, in order to justify the creation of brand new calendar systems. And it wasn't the events of the Void Century or the Second World.
So, here's what I think the timeline looks like:
5000 years ago, the Tree of Knowledge on Ohara begins growing. (Chapter 392). So, likely, something happened 5000 years ago, that was commemorated by planting this tree. (In my own theories, this could be when Humans first arrived on this planet, but that's a story for another time.)
869 years pass.
I think the Ancient Kingdom was established 4131 years ago. In my head, this is when the Ancient Kingdom was first formed. This is kind of backed up by Alabasta's castle being mentioned to be around 4000 years old. (Chapter 188) And this would be when the Age of Heaven Calendar begins.
Then we have 2590 years of relative peace.
The events of the First World in the Chapter 1138 Mural would then happen 1541 years ago. The Ancient Kingdom makes it move to "mine" the Forbidden Sun in the center of the planet. Leading to the Hellflame Serpent and Earth God to attack, and the rise of the Sun God Nika. And ending with the Ancient Kingdom most likely gaining the Forbidden Sun for itself, in the process. The Age of the Sea Circle Calendar is created, restarting with a new year 0 AoSC, circa 2590 AoH.
Then we have 600 years of more relative peace. The Forbidden Sun is used to rebuild after the War. And to subjugate certain groups of people, creating the resentment that will come to a head during the Second World. Various races are enslaved such as the Tontotta and Fishmen, likley to aid in the rebuilding. Moon stuff happens. The Forbidden Sun's power likely leads to the "utopia" that Joyboy grew up in during the Second World. (Chapter 1114)
Then, 900 years ago, Joyboy the First Pirate rises, circa 641 AoSC or 3231 AoH. The Forest God "sends forth it's devils", likely creating the first Devil Fruits. The 20 Kingdoms unite to overthrow the Ancient Kingdom. The 20 Kingdoms "slay the sun", likely meaning they destroy the Forbidden Sun mined during the First World. And the 20 Kingdoms become the Celestial Dragons. The Sea God rages. All ending 800 years ago, circa 741 AoSC or 3331 AoH. And the new Celestial Dragons likely erase the last 100 years of recorded history to hide their own war crimes and Joyboy's involvement and existance, creating the Void Century we know of today.
Then we have 800 years of relative peace again, until Luffy starts his journey two years ago. The 2-year timeskip happens. And now we're up to the present, in the year 1541 AoSC or 4131 AoH. Now, firmly in the Third World.
But, this is a lot of speculation. And do you see how you kind of have to cobble together what happened over DECADES of the story in the manga? From offhand remarks and things mentioned in passing from various chapters? It's not clear if this is the way the puzzle pieces are supposed to fit together or not. We don't have a larger picture of what happened, yet.
So, there's a LOT that Oda could add to this, to change everything we know. If Oda doesn't just retcon a few things, if he ends up changing his mind about the details. So, yes...we'll see if any of this is accurate or not.
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