S
Why is that? Because they executed Roger? Bro, that’s some desperate “argument” if there ever was one
There are many flaws in in here.
Firstly, the “primary arc antagonist” is none other than Alvida , not Morgan. Maybe you wanted Morgan to be first to better suit your argument, but Alvida is first and sets the starting tone for the story, not Morgan.
Secondly, why do you make it out like Morgan is an agent for the WG? Lol we know he is just an aberration, ie a marine that abuses his physicality over his men and his marine rank to attain status, yet he is acting outside the marine code of justice, which is why he gets arrested by the Marines later. This has nothing to do with “WG being evil”. Try again
In fact the Entire East Blue Saga is instead characterised by the evil of piracy, and whenever marines do evil in that arc we see that it is the product of miscarriage of justice from elements within the system on a small level, which however is not approved by the system at large, as marines do not condone Morgan or the marine with cat whiskers working together with Arlong.
Problems with elements in a system doesn’t make the entire system wrong as the system (marines) always seeks to address said problems.
Really now you are just out here making entirely fallacious and desperate “arguments”
On this account your reasoning is also not well thought out and you are simply wrong.
The plights caused to the strawhats as a whole is shared berseen piracy on one hand and WG on the other.
But let’s be objective here. When we consider the evil acts of pirates they have been far more unambiguously pure and purposeful evil.
Let’s look at the actions of Wapol. He turned pirate and abused his power by abducting all the doctors, refusing medical care to those who couldn’t pay exorbitant sums of money, and those doctors that refused were simply killed in a purge, like Stalin level shit.
This is an example of pure and inexcusable terror and evil committed by a pirate (parading as king unbeknownst to WG he was an evil dictator). Other examples on the list are Captain Kuro whom was ready to kill an entire town, and Arlong oppressed an entire town (etc).
The WG killed the entire Ohara population. Looking at it objectively though one can make the perfectly sound argument that IF someone like Wapol or Kuro would’ve gotten theirs hands on information that could lead to Pluton, they could potentially cause FAR MORE evil to the world by blackmailing it, oppressing nations etc with the use of Pluton.
The difference between the WG who committed an evil act, is you can still at least make a valid case for why they did what they did. The pirates do not have any valid excuse of any sort for their inhumane acts.
Let’s say the strawhats never intervened in Arlong Park, Syrup Village and Drum Kingdom, over the course of time the amount of dead in Drum Kingdom would pile up, an entire town murderer by Kuro’s men, Cocoyashincillage being under the yoke of Arlong, if the amount of suffering and number of deaths combined wouldn’t have already outweighed Ohara in terms of human harm and suffering, it’s only a matter of timebefore it does.
Hence, Piracy either have done or would have done far more damage to the strawhats
What are you trying to say even? That the World Government is evil because of the warlord system. Clearly you mustn’t have thought very deeply or much about this point at all honestly
Firstly, we can just say that this argument is rendered moot at this point when the warlord system has been abolished due to a majority decision from nation member states lol
Secondly, has it escaped your understanding that the WG only avails itself of the warlords because it is incapable of otherwise handling the scourge of pirates?
The WG lacks resources to deal with the worldwide problem of pirates, so warlords are a necessary evil that the WG begrudgingly has to use , in order to combat the pirate scourge.
Even so, the warlords are only given clemency within reason , and if they transgress beyond reason they lose their warlord status
We know Fujitora purposefully avoided taking action against Doffy because he wanted Doflamingo’s destruction to be taken to its full measure in order to show the word that “warlords-bad-you-see-what-he-did”
That’s Fujitora failing in his duty, not that the warlord system is inherently is evil. The marines do act when warlords act out of line.
So literally the warlord system is in theory a net public good as it counteracts pirates , only it hasn’t worked out well in practice, hence why it got abolished
You using the warlord system as an argument to say the WG is an evil institution, sorry but that’s a very nonsensical argument
To reiterate the previous point, In effect the warlords have failed their duties as “warlords” and have instead been acting as rouge pirates in their own private interests that clearly contravene the agreement with the WG, such that that had they been found out they would’ve been put in Impel Down.
Thus in name only has Crocodile, Doffy and Moriah been forces for the government, when in fact they were just rogue pirates
To say the strawhats have been fighting the “world government” is true “on paper” but not in essence
Oda portrays warlords that are heavily breaking the rules as warlords, so they are not warlords in effect, as they are just pirates clad in warlord clothing.
If we pretend that say Jimbei when he was a warlord had been ordered to bring down the strawhats, and he tries to fulfill that task dutifully (say not like Kuma) that would have been the closest to a a real case of strawhats fighting a “World Government force” that isn’t really just a rogue pirate or someone like Kuma that isn’t doing his job properly bc he is a revolutionary. Yes then Jimbei would have been the closest thing to what you intend to mean here, and for the story purpose this would have been “Jimbei, the world government agent” and not “Crocodile, a pirate” or “Mingo, the underworld boss and pirate”. No one actually reads Alabasta arc and says “now we are in fact fighting the World Government” or reading Dressrosa arc and saying “that Doflamingo sure is a tough World Government agent” lol. Only time we would’ve said that probably would’ve been Kuma be strawhats, but then we see that Kuma was only just a revolutionary after all that spared the strawhats.
Which means that the strawhats have been fighting rogue pirates clad in warlord clothing, not warlords in actual effect the way you intend it to mean.
Hence Oda clearly writes and portrays the warlords in a pirate-like capacity, not in a “government-agent” type capacity as they follow the mold of the former, not the latter.
So far you only got this point correct
Firstly, this is not true. Racism seems to be a worldwide phenomenon in the One Piece world, because of ignorance. Nevertheless The WG as in the five elders have sought to harmonise relations between fishmen and humans. They were disappointed when Jimbei left because they saw him as bridging relations. It’s not the fault of the Elders and the WG that has welcomed Fishman Island into their fold that prejudice against fishmen exists as a worldwide phenomenon.
Also, slavery is technically forbidden by law in the One Piece world, so we come to real crux of this matter and that is The Celestial Dragons
Because the WG gives total immunity and leeway for Celestial Dragons to do and act as they please, the Celestial Dragons, CD, supersede all laws and rights it seems. CDs literally are a net evil and doesn’t provide any net good.
Slavery isn’t encouraged, it’s just that the world government just has to be yes-man every time a Celestial Dragon, CD, says or wants something. If a bridge has to be built because some CD said so some 100 odd years ago, use slave labour. The laws don’t apply as soon as the word of a CD opens his mouth.
What’s so interesting here is that the World Government wouldn’t have been so evil in theory if it weren’t for the fact that Celestial Dragons exist. It is because the CDs exist and do what they do that the WG becomes so fucked up.
When one tries to understand the motivations of the WG, there are actions that can be explained, understood and even excused, while sometimes there are just mysteries (like say why go after Vegapunk, what has he found out or hiding from the WG that troubles them so?) that we don’t yet know in too much detail so as to render any precise moral judgment.
However, in the case of CDs, they are not even worthy an explanation; they are utterly inexcusable in their actions; they are wicked and that’s all there is to understand about them; and the only mystery is why they’re allowed to exist in the first place.
What truly and unambiguously makes the World Government evil without any question is the aiding and abetting of Celestial Dragons. All else one can debate to a certain point, but in this topic the debate grinds to a firm halt.
True, the World Government does a thorough job at clearing up any remnants of past history, but I would probably disagree that the World Government itself is gonna be the faction with the most “unsolved mysteries”.
Let’s be honest, If we’re gonna compare the mysteries of the World Government to that of the Ancient Kingdom (speculated to be a Pirate Kingdom btw) I think it’s gonna pale and be utterly outshined by AK in terms of mystique, lore and history. AK > WG to the point where the formation and history of WG will probably be very tame and void of real content and meaningful history in comparison. The WG’s history is essentially about maintaining control and about covering up the AK’s history. I mean perhaps there could he nuanced way of looking at the history so it’s not all black and white (say why they don’t want Vegapunk to uncover too much about it) but really that’s how I see it, that in terms of WG history and mystique there’s not too much to see or interesting to learn.
You ascribe too much importance to the World Government, but I think Oda is a lot more interested in the pirate aspects in all areas od worldbuilding. In the end the Ancient Kingdom was a pirate kingdom, and the Road to Laugh Take is a race between pirates to uncover its secrets and I think there will be a far more pirate-centred ending revolving around this than a WG-centred one.
To summarise your arguments
I would conclude by saying that some of the arguments that you’ve used in order to try to demonstrate narrative relevance of the WG and to flesh out as much evil aspects of the WG as possible to, again, try to assert a case for WG relevance, some of these have either been flat-out wrong, even been a little misleading at times or they’ve not been thoroughly thought-out such that they can be debunked on the basis of there being poor reasoning behind them.
However, the points you do have in your favour are the following
(1) Celestial Dragons do exert a huge detrimental role in world politics, and rhat needs to be abolished end of series.
(2) The active burial of the Ancient History by the World Government
(3) You didn’t directly mention this, but I can add it as a point of yours and say the Lulusia Kingdom eradication, possibly with the use of Uranus is as of now a huge interest to your case.
(4) Likewise the existence of Imu sure threw a curve ball into what everyone thought was really happening, also something to add to your case
To me these points looks to actually be a very strong case for why the WG could be the absolute endgame and focus.
However, in my own opinion, I believe Oda wants to write a more pirate-centred story, and that’s partly based on intuition (which is not an argument however) bur mainly on the fact that he originally intended for a 5 year long series with even a fleshed out idea of One Piece back then that probably has not changed that much over time.
From what I gather you want to make the case that the Warlords were also created in effect as a more direct way to bring the World Government into the picture, and reinforce its importance. To me that’s a wrong way to see it, because the warlords were written and portrayed more in a pirate-like capacity than in a professional pirateer-like one. To me that just looks like Oda just wants to include a variety of aspects of pirates. In addition the warlord system has been abolished now so your point about it being a way to reinforce the importance of World Government doesn’t make any actual sense in hindsight now that the warlord system is of no more actual consequence.
When I view the manga it looks to me like the precedence for portraying pirates is much stronger than the precedent for portraying aspects of the World Government. While you believe a lot of endgame will be about war with the World Government and uncovering World Government secrets, I think a lot more of that will revolve around the Road to Laugh Tale journey and uncovering it’s secrets, a race between the Yonkous (which is what Oda intended from the start) while the overthrow of the World Government and Imu (even uncovering her secret) will happen in a lot smoother fashion and be less dramatic than what you must imagine it to be. I think probably Oda will expand a lot more on say the destruction of the Red Line and what it means to the world at large than on the mysterious nature and identity of Im-Sama.
In short, a lot of things have happened and been added storywise and in terms of worldbuilding, but I do believe in terms of the overall story and events moving forward that these are gonna be pretty much in line with the overarching pirate theme that Oda had in mind from the start. That is my honest opinion and I think I’ve argued pretty strongly in favour of that. I see that you also have a case but I think my case is actually stronger all things considered.
I hope you found this reply respectful and earnest, that I portrayed your arguments in a fair way and countered them equally fairly, and that I made a case for both of us really and explained why I believe my case is stronger.
Ok so here are some tags for the occasion, always interested in feedback @Sasaki Kojirō @Erkan12 @Tejas @JoNdule @MonsterKaido @SakazOuki @Zolo @DarkKingSlander etc
There are many flaws in in here.
Firstly, the “primary arc antagonist” is none other than Alvida , not Morgan. Maybe you wanted Morgan to be first to better suit your argument, but Alvida is first and sets the starting tone for the story, not Morgan.
Secondly, why do you make it out like Morgan is an agent for the WG? Lol we know he is just an aberration, ie a marine that abuses his physicality over his men and his marine rank to attain status, yet he is acting outside the marine code of justice, which is why he gets arrested by the Marines later. This has nothing to do with “WG being evil”. Try again
In fact the Entire East Blue Saga is instead characterised by the evil of piracy, and whenever marines do evil in that arc we see that it is the product of miscarriage of justice from elements within the system on a small level, which however is not approved by the system at large, as marines do not condone Morgan or the marine with cat whiskers working together with Arlong.
Problems with elements in a system doesn’t make the entire system wrong as the system (marines) always seeks to address said problems.
Really now you are just out here making entirely fallacious and desperate “arguments”
On this account your reasoning is also not well thought out and you are simply wrong.
The plights caused to the strawhats as a whole is shared berseen piracy on one hand and WG on the other.
But let’s be objective here. When we consider the evil acts of pirates they have been far more unambiguously pure and purposeful evil.
Let’s look at the actions of Wapol. He turned pirate and abused his power by abducting all the doctors, refusing medical care to those who couldn’t pay exorbitant sums of money, and those doctors that refused were simply killed in a purge, like Stalin level shit.
This is an example of pure and inexcusable terror and evil committed by a pirate (parading as king unbeknownst to WG he was an evil dictator). Other examples on the list are Captain Kuro whom was ready to kill an entire town, and Arlong oppressed an entire town (etc).
The WG killed the entire Ohara population. Looking at it objectively though one can make the perfectly sound argument that IF someone like Wapol or Kuro would’ve gotten theirs hands on information that could lead to Pluton, they could potentially cause FAR MORE evil to the world by blackmailing it, oppressing nations etc with the use of Pluton.
The difference between the WG who committed an evil act, is you can still at least make a valid case for why they did what they did. The pirates do not have any valid excuse of any sort for their inhumane acts.
Let’s say the strawhats never intervened in Arlong Park, Syrup Village and Drum Kingdom, over the course of time the amount of dead in Drum Kingdom would pile up, an entire town murderer by Kuro’s men, Cocoyashincillage being under the yoke of Arlong, if the amount of suffering and number of deaths combined wouldn’t have already outweighed Ohara in terms of human harm and suffering, it’s only a matter of timebefore it does.
Hence, Piracy either have done or would have done far more damage to the strawhats
What are you trying to say even? That the World Government is evil because of the warlord system. Clearly you mustn’t have thought very deeply or much about this point at all honestly
Firstly, we can just say that this argument is rendered moot at this point when the warlord system has been abolished due to a majority decision from nation member states lol
Secondly, has it escaped your understanding that the WG only avails itself of the warlords because it is incapable of otherwise handling the scourge of pirates?
The WG lacks resources to deal with the worldwide problem of pirates, so warlords are a necessary evil that the WG begrudgingly has to use , in order to combat the pirate scourge.
Even so, the warlords are only given clemency within reason , and if they transgress beyond reason they lose their warlord status
We know Fujitora purposefully avoided taking action against Doffy because he wanted Doflamingo’s destruction to be taken to its full measure in order to show the word that “warlords-bad-you-see-what-he-did”
That’s Fujitora failing in his duty, not that the warlord system is inherently is evil. The marines do act when warlords act out of line.
So literally the warlord system is in theory a net public good as it counteracts pirates , only it hasn’t worked out well in practice, hence why it got abolished
You using the warlord system as an argument to say the WG is an evil institution, sorry but that’s a very nonsensical argument
To reiterate the previous point, In effect the warlords have failed their duties as “warlords” and have instead been acting as rouge pirates in their own private interests that clearly contravene the agreement with the WG, such that that had they been found out they would’ve been put in Impel Down.
Thus in name only has Crocodile, Doffy and Moriah been forces for the government, when in fact they were just rogue pirates
To say the strawhats have been fighting the “world government” is true “on paper” but not in essence
Oda portrays warlords that are heavily breaking the rules as warlords, so they are not warlords in effect, as they are just pirates clad in warlord clothing.
If we pretend that say Jimbei when he was a warlord had been ordered to bring down the strawhats, and he tries to fulfill that task dutifully (say not like Kuma) that would have been the closest to a a real case of strawhats fighting a “World Government force” that isn’t really just a rogue pirate or someone like Kuma that isn’t doing his job properly bc he is a revolutionary. Yes then Jimbei would have been the closest thing to what you intend to mean here, and for the story purpose this would have been “Jimbei, the world government agent” and not “Crocodile, a pirate” or “Mingo, the underworld boss and pirate”. No one actually reads Alabasta arc and says “now we are in fact fighting the World Government” or reading Dressrosa arc and saying “that Doflamingo sure is a tough World Government agent” lol. Only time we would’ve said that probably would’ve been Kuma be strawhats, but then we see that Kuma was only just a revolutionary after all that spared the strawhats.
Which means that the strawhats have been fighting rogue pirates clad in warlord clothing, not warlords in actual effect the way you intend it to mean.
Hence Oda clearly writes and portrays the warlords in a pirate-like capacity, not in a “government-agent” type capacity as they follow the mold of the former, not the latter.
So far you only got this point correct
Firstly, this is not true. Racism seems to be a worldwide phenomenon in the One Piece world, because of ignorance. Nevertheless The WG as in the five elders have sought to harmonise relations between fishmen and humans. They were disappointed when Jimbei left because they saw him as bridging relations. It’s not the fault of the Elders and the WG that has welcomed Fishman Island into their fold that prejudice against fishmen exists as a worldwide phenomenon.
Also, slavery is technically forbidden by law in the One Piece world, so we come to real crux of this matter and that is The Celestial Dragons
Because the WG gives total immunity and leeway for Celestial Dragons to do and act as they please, the Celestial Dragons, CD, supersede all laws and rights it seems. CDs literally are a net evil and doesn’t provide any net good.
Slavery isn’t encouraged, it’s just that the world government just has to be yes-man every time a Celestial Dragon, CD, says or wants something. If a bridge has to be built because some CD said so some 100 odd years ago, use slave labour. The laws don’t apply as soon as the word of a CD opens his mouth.
What’s so interesting here is that the World Government wouldn’t have been so evil in theory if it weren’t for the fact that Celestial Dragons exist. It is because the CDs exist and do what they do that the WG becomes so fucked up.
When one tries to understand the motivations of the WG, there are actions that can be explained, understood and even excused, while sometimes there are just mysteries (like say why go after Vegapunk, what has he found out or hiding from the WG that troubles them so?) that we don’t yet know in too much detail so as to render any precise moral judgment.
However, in the case of CDs, they are not even worthy an explanation; they are utterly inexcusable in their actions; they are wicked and that’s all there is to understand about them; and the only mystery is why they’re allowed to exist in the first place.
What truly and unambiguously makes the World Government evil without any question is the aiding and abetting of Celestial Dragons. All else one can debate to a certain point, but in this topic the debate grinds to a firm halt.
True, the World Government does a thorough job at clearing up any remnants of past history, but I would probably disagree that the World Government itself is gonna be the faction with the most “unsolved mysteries”.
Let’s be honest, If we’re gonna compare the mysteries of the World Government to that of the Ancient Kingdom (speculated to be a Pirate Kingdom btw) I think it’s gonna pale and be utterly outshined by AK in terms of mystique, lore and history. AK > WG to the point where the formation and history of WG will probably be very tame and void of real content and meaningful history in comparison. The WG’s history is essentially about maintaining control and about covering up the AK’s history. I mean perhaps there could he nuanced way of looking at the history so it’s not all black and white (say why they don’t want Vegapunk to uncover too much about it) but really that’s how I see it, that in terms of WG history and mystique there’s not too much to see or interesting to learn.
You ascribe too much importance to the World Government, but I think Oda is a lot more interested in the pirate aspects in all areas od worldbuilding. In the end the Ancient Kingdom was a pirate kingdom, and the Road to Laugh Take is a race between pirates to uncover its secrets and I think there will be a far more pirate-centred ending revolving around this than a WG-centred one.
To summarise your arguments
I would conclude by saying that some of the arguments that you’ve used in order to try to demonstrate narrative relevance of the WG and to flesh out as much evil aspects of the WG as possible to, again, try to assert a case for WG relevance, some of these have either been flat-out wrong, even been a little misleading at times or they’ve not been thoroughly thought-out such that they can be debunked on the basis of there being poor reasoning behind them.
However, the points you do have in your favour are the following
(1) Celestial Dragons do exert a huge detrimental role in world politics, and rhat needs to be abolished end of series.
(2) The active burial of the Ancient History by the World Government
(3) You didn’t directly mention this, but I can add it as a point of yours and say the Lulusia Kingdom eradication, possibly with the use of Uranus is as of now a huge interest to your case.
(4) Likewise the existence of Imu sure threw a curve ball into what everyone thought was really happening, also something to add to your case
To me these points looks to actually be a very strong case for why the WG could be the absolute endgame and focus.
However, in my own opinion, I believe Oda wants to write a more pirate-centred story, and that’s partly based on intuition (which is not an argument however) bur mainly on the fact that he originally intended for a 5 year long series with even a fleshed out idea of One Piece back then that probably has not changed that much over time.
From what I gather you want to make the case that the Warlords were also created in effect as a more direct way to bring the World Government into the picture, and reinforce its importance. To me that’s a wrong way to see it, because the warlords were written and portrayed more in a pirate-like capacity than in a professional pirateer-like one. To me that just looks like Oda just wants to include a variety of aspects of pirates. In addition the warlord system has been abolished now so your point about it being a way to reinforce the importance of World Government doesn’t make any actual sense in hindsight now that the warlord system is of no more actual consequence.
When I view the manga it looks to me like the precedence for portraying pirates is much stronger than the precedent for portraying aspects of the World Government. While you believe a lot of endgame will be about war with the World Government and uncovering World Government secrets, I think a lot more of that will revolve around the Road to Laugh Tale journey and uncovering it’s secrets, a race between the Yonkous (which is what Oda intended from the start) while the overthrow of the World Government and Imu (even uncovering her secret) will happen in a lot smoother fashion and be less dramatic than what you must imagine it to be. I think probably Oda will expand a lot more on say the destruction of the Red Line and what it means to the world at large than on the mysterious nature and identity of Im-Sama.
In short, a lot of things have happened and been added storywise and in terms of worldbuilding, but I do believe in terms of the overall story and events moving forward that these are gonna be pretty much in line with the overarching pirate theme that Oda had in mind from the start. That is my honest opinion and I think I’ve argued pretty strongly in favour of that. I see that you also have a case but I think my case is actually stronger all things considered.
I hope you found this reply respectful and earnest, that I portrayed your arguments in a fair way and countered them equally fairly, and that I made a case for both of us really and explained why I believe my case is stronger.
Ok so here are some tags for the occasion, always interested in feedback @Sasaki Kojirō @Erkan12 @Tejas @JoNdule @MonsterKaido @SakazOuki @Zolo @DarkKingSlander etc