Espada vs Captains

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#1
The espada has to fight all Gotei 13 captain as they were during Aizen war and without Yama. They cannot use their power ups from the last arc, only their previous powers from the HM arc and Fake town battle. But if they had a bankai or skills before that arc they can use it. (for exemple Kyoraku can use his Bankai because he had it during his fight against Stark).

So the 10 espada vs Kyoraku, Ukitake (won't cough during the fight), Byakuya, Kenpachi, Hitsugaya, Mayuri, Soi Fon, Komamura, Unohana. So there are 10 espada against 9 captains.

let's go !

If the captains can't win add post Grimmjow fight Ichigo.

Tags : @Haoshoku @ZenZu @TheAncientCenturion @comrade @Jiihad @ShadyOjiro @Blackbeard @SmokedOut @Van etc
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#2
I can't get a good enough read on the Captains tbh. Kubo's power scale is a nightmare. Ichigo's bankai could pressure Byakuya, Grimmjow absolutely bodied his bankai in base like Ichigo was a child.

Hitsugaya was getting toyed with by Luppi and he had help. Grimmjow one shotted him like a fodder.

The Espada should be much much stronger than majority of the Captains. But then that clearly didn't turn out to be the case for whatever reason.

The Captains would probably win. Kyoraku and Unohana are likely too much.
 
#3
I can't get a good enough read on the Captains tbh. Kubo's power scale is a nightmare. Ichigo's bankai could pressure Byakuya, Grimmjow absolutely bodied his bankai in base like Ichigo was a child.

Hitsugaya was getting toyed with by Luppi and he had help. Grimmjow one shotted him like a fodder.

The Espada should be much much stronger than majority of the Captains. But then that clearly didn't turn out to be the case for whatever reason.

The Captains would probably win. Kyoraku and Unohana are likely too much.
The way I see it, the Captains on average are much weaker than the Espada, as you say, however, it only takes one or two outliers to completely change this.

The captains will struggle with Barragan's powers and may not be able to handle Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra either, but given how Kyoraku was far better than Stark and his performance against Lille as well as the paralleling hype for Ukitake, I think those two are the most important pieces in play. I can't think of any Espada that could cause Kyoraku trouble with Bankai other than Ulquiorra. Shunsui might be able to solo almost all of them tbh

That being said I don't think Unohana is too much. She'd meet her match in swordplay against Resurreccion Ulquiorra. Though we don't know exactly how strong her Bankai is or what it does exactly, I don't consider her more powerful than the top 4.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#4
I can't get a good enough read on the Captains tbh. Kubo's power scale is a nightmare. Ichigo's bankai could pressure Byakuya, Grimmjow absolutely bodied his bankai in base like Ichigo was a child.

Hitsugaya was getting toyed with by Luppi and he had help. Grimmjow one shotted him like a fodder.

The Espada should be much much stronger than majority of the Captains. But then that clearly didn't turn out to be the case for whatever reason.

The Captains would probably win. Kyoraku and Unohana are likely too much.
We already know that Byakuya can beat Zomari, Mayuri can beat Zayel, and Kenpachi can beat Nnoitora.

But yes there are still 7 espada for 6 captains. And yes Ulquirra seconda etapa and Barragan will be hard to deal with. But Unohana and Kyoraku are both monsters.

as well as the paralleling hype for Ukitake, I think those two are the most important pieces in play.
I agree that Ukitake is likely a monster given his portrayal but we have never seen his bankai so we can only use what we have seen so his shikai and maybe other powers here and there.
 
#5
We already know that Byakuya can beat Zomari, Mayuri can beat Zayel, and Kenpachi can beat Nnoitora.

But yes there are still 7 espada for 6 captains. And yes Ulquirra seconda etapa and Barragan will be hard to deal with. But Unohana and Kyoraku are both monsters.



I agree that Ukitake is likely a monster given his portrayal but we have never seen his bankai so we can only use what we have seen so his shikai and maybe other powers here and there.
I don't think Unohana is as important in this fight as you might think. Ukitake even without Bankai would probably get the better of most of the Espada; that's how skillful he and Kyoraku are. Bankai-less Kyoraku > Stark. Same must be the case for Ukitake.

Yes but I can't see Byakuya etc. having a chance against Ulquiorra, Harribel, Barragan and Stark. I suppose Mayuri vs Barragan or Unohana vs Barragan would be interesting, but I can't see them winning even once in 100 instances.
 

Jiihad

RIP Toriyama
#6
Tha average Espada is stronger than tha average Gotei Captain, only issue is tha Captains have 3-4 outliers that straight up outweigh anything tha Espada can do.

Kyoraku wit his Bankai washes any Espada, not to mention he beat Espada 1(or 2 considering Ulqiourra) wit his Shikai alone.

Ukitake ain’t show us much of anything tha whole series smh. But tha way we was supposed to view him inverse imo, was supposed to be somewhat comparable to Kyoraku(if not equal)

Kenpachi arguably slaps most Espada as well, I know Barragan and his death smoke shit. But would it really affect Kenpachi? Remember what Aizen said, battles are decided by Spiritual pressure, and Kenpachi got tha shit in spades

Unohana is tha last of tha outliers, but she ain’t show us much in tha qualifies arcs to give her much. Tho she might not ge needed hea
 
#7
didn't we already see the results of this during the actual story?
Almost all of them got beaten pretty easily.

Starrk lost to Kyoraku's shikai XD how pathetic was that
Barragan lost to his own power
Harribel would evetually be overpowered
Ulquirra (the real number 1) this guy is literally the espada's only hope to win but Kyoraku could take him with his bankai.
Nnoitra has no chance agains Zaraki
Grimmjow would have no chnace against any captain
Szayel, Yammy and was it Zomari? all got destroyed easily
and Aaroniero lost to Rukia, he has no chance against a captain.

as far as i see it the espada get stomped easily.
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#8
OP said:
So the 10 espada vs Kyoraku, Ukitake (won't cough during the fight), Byakuya, Kenpachi, Hitsugaya, Mayuri, Soi Fon, Komamura, Unohana. So there are 10 espada against 9 captains.
Apart from Komamura, I'd say every Captain fighter here is > Zommari. Really offsets the Espada side when three of their members are arguably the weakest in the group.

  • Aaroniero Arruruerie has no chance of defeating any Captain or pushing them to Bankai.
  • Szayelaporro Granz was getting outwitted casually by Mayuri and his actual power is reliant on grappling his victims. No one here is as weak as Renji, so his vodoo dolls aren't going to work.
  • Zommari Rureaux's Amor is admittedly difficult to work around, especially with numerical advantages for the Espada. But we have likely 3 fighters who are superior to Zommari in raw speed (Soi Fon, Byakuya and likely Shunsui). His gimmick likewise leaves him vulnerable.

Now take into account the fact the three strongest fighters are all on the Shinigami side;

  • Kyoraku was casual throughout most of his fight with the Primera and was matching or exceeding him. Shikai Shunsui is above anyone apart from Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.
  • Ukitake was said, both in DBs and in the manga to be Shunsui's equal. Take away his failing health and that's really bad for the Espada.
  • Unohana Yachiru could low diff early TYBW Zaraki. This Zaraki is logically >> the same Kenpachi who fought Nnoitra Gilga. Every time he fights a good opponent, he unlocks more of his innate power. Against Loyd Royd and later Yhwach, it's fair to say his potential was further pulled out. Still low diff material for Yachiru.

The only three Arrancar that are worth discussing are Ulquiorra, the fullest reaches of Ira Yammy Llargo, and Baraggan Louisenbairn.

  • Yammy Llargo's got the second toughest hierro according to the DBs, the most reiatsu and some weird... Evolution/regeneration ability he's displayed. Yet, Post-fight versions of Byakuya and Zaraki could still beat him and return with severe looking injuries, but not dire. This means that stronger characters, who aren't injured, would likely come away from Yammy's fight without much issue. Remember Zaraki himself thought he'd die against Nnoitra based on his injuries and Byakuya was forced to cut himself a few times to render Zommari's amor useless.
  • Ulquiorra's only a threat when in his Segunda Etapa state. His Lanza del Relámpago is devastating, his speed and AP are extremely heightened and his reiatsu is around full Ira Yammy Llargo's level. Only issue is, he doesn't practice with this form much, so its full uses aren't exercised. He didn't want to use Lanza del Relámpago close because he'd be caught in it, likewise he said he wasn't good at aiming with it (and it showed). Against a quick opponent, it turns into a glorified spear with its AP reduced without erupting. His internal organs are still a wide target, too. That hasn't changed.
  • Barragan.. God King of Hueco Mundo. Honestly, respira seems so god damn broken. It could catch Soi Fon, it spreads like a disease, he seems like a real problem. Only someone with much higher reiatsu or a broken ability will be able to take him down.
So here's how I think this roughly goes.

Aaroniero Arruruerie vs Komamura — Komamura wins Mid difficulty.

Szayelaporro Granz vs Mayuri Kurostuchi — Mayuri wins High Difficulty if he doesn't have allies to test Granz' full abilities.

Zommari Rureaux vs Soi Fon — Soi Fon wins mid difficulty. Her speed is much greater and her shikai would make killing Zommari childs play.

Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez vs Toshiro — I favor Toshiro. The longer a battle goes on, the stronger he gets. He was able to keep up with Halibel with the aid of two Vice Captains, who honestly aren't much of a help in Captain level battles. High Difficulty because Grimmjow isn't a push over.

Nnoitra Gilga vs Zaraki Kenpachi — High difficult. It's a canon fight.

Ulquiorra Cifer vs Unohana Yachiru — Unohana Mid diffs.

Tia Halibel vs Byakuya Kuchiki + Komamura — The Duo win around High Difficulty. Komamaru being done with Aaroniero Arruruerie so easily should be able to help against Halibel. Byakuya alone is portrayed as ~ to Zaraki in this arc. The addition of another Captain class fighter whould push then victory over to their side.

Baraggan Louisenbairn vs Kyoraku Shunsui — Kyoraku Shunsui wins mid diff maximum. I consider it mid diff because he has to pull out Bankai to actually kill Barragan, but a mix of shadow travel, Shunsui's keen intelligence and power would make him eat Barragan if not for Respira. Bankai should work on Barragan though.

Coyote Starrk vs Ukitake Jyuushiro — Jyuushiro wins mid diff maximum too. Once again, Yamamoto claims they were equals and above all others in their class. Their power should be comparable, and a lazy Shunsui was fighting on par with Los Lobos Starrk and later able to outsmart and overpower an injured Starrk.

Yammy Llargo basically fights and loses to a coalition of whatever Captains get done their fights earliest. He could definitely beat the weaker ones, if left by himself for awhile. But he dies without a doubt.

I can't get a good enough read on the Captains tbh. Kubo's power scale is a nightmare. Ichigo's bankai could pressure Byakuya, Grimmjow absolutely bodied his bankai in base like Ichigo was a child.
Here's a chart to help you out. Using Ichigo as a metric for powerscaling is a nightmare.

 
#10
I don't remember much of Bleach so correct me if i'm wrong but i think the captains would low diff the spadas
Shunsui alone can beat most of them or maybe even all of them
Ukitake is implied to be on Shunsui level
Unohana i think was said to be the strongest captain before Kenpachi :kayneshrug:
Any of these 3 might actually beat all 10.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#11
Starrk lost to Kyoraku's shikai XD how pathetic was that
Yeah he lost but Kyoraku had helped, Ukitake helped him redirect ceros and save his ass one time, Rose and Love helped him during quite some time when Kyo was a bit down. And thanks to that Kyo managed to sneak attack Stark.

Shikai only and just Kyoraku it would have not been so easy.

Barragan lost to his own power
Yes but Hachi was there and without him Soi fon would have been killed. No kido magician here.

Halibel was tag teamed too.

Yami last form was tag teamed too.

Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez vs Toshiro — I favor Toshiro. The longer a battle goes on, the stronger he gets. He was able to keep up with Halibel with the aid of two Vice Captains, who honestly aren't much of a help in Captain level battles. High Difficulty because Grimmjow isn't a push over.
I think it can go either way I think.

Hitsu was strong but he never striked me as someone who could beat Grimmjow : either against Lucci, or against Grim fraccion etc.

Coyote Starrk vs Ukitake Jyuushiro — Jyuushiro wins mid diff maximum too. Once again, Yamamoto claims they were equals and above all others in their class. Their power should be comparable, and a lazy Shunsui was fighting on par with Los Lobos Starrk and later able to outsmart and overpower an injured Starrk.
Ukitale is likely strong but we can't use either bankai or potential because we don't know at all his powers, abilities etc so it is not fair to give him that. For me we can only use his Shikai what e showed and maybe solid base stats (fighting Yama etc)
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#12
I think it can go either way I think.

Hitsu was strong but he never striked me as someone who could beat Grimmjow : either against Lucci, or against Grim fraccion etc.
I think they're on the same rough level, but Grimmjow lost against a version of Ichigo who couldn't handle the 4th Espada. Toshiro could fight with Halibel evenly, with the support of two Vizard Vice Captains. The latter two aren't a factor much IMO, considering Ichigo could wipe out VCs for breakfast since he rescued Rukia.


Ukitale is likely strong but we can't use either bankai or potential because we don't know at all his powers, abilities etc so it is not fair to give him that. For me we can only use his Shikai what e showed and maybe solid base stats (fighting Yama etc)
But I'm not using any of his new feats or a hypothetical bankai. Yamamoto considered them equals since schooling, hundreds and hundreds of years prior to the story.
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#13
Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez vs Toshiro — I favor Toshiro. The longer a battle goes on, the stronger he gets. He was able to keep up with Halibel with the aid of two Vice Captains, who honestly aren't much of a help in Captain level battles. High Difficulty because Grimmjow isn't a push over.
I'm not letting this slide by lol. Not a chance in hell Toshiro beats Grimmjow.

Toshiro was getting played around by Luppi who Grimmjow one shotted, he's on an entirely different level. Toshiro absolutely cannot keep up with Grimmjow in cqc who made Ichigo's bankai look slow and weak in his base form.

There is no long fight going on here. I don't know what kind of elemental fashion show Halibel and Toshiro had going on, but there is no let when it comes to Grimmjow, only in your face constant pressure.

Base Grimmjow would low diff Hitsugaya. He likely never gets to even see Grimmjow's resurrection. He gets an arm through his torso in no time, Toshiro is not lasting a minute against Grimmjow's pressure.

Even if you want to believe that by some miracle he survives against base Grimmjow, the moment Grimmjow uses ressurection it's a clear cut stomp anyway.

Grimmjow vs Byakuya is a better battle but even that is a loss for Byakuya soon as Grimmjow transforms.
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#14
I'm not letting this slide by lol. Not a chance in hell Toshiro beats Grimmjow.

Toshiro was getting played around by Luppi who Grimmjow one shotted, he's on an entirely different level. Toshiro absolutely cannot keep up with Grimmjow in cqc who made Ichigo's bankai look slow and weak in his base form.

There is no long fight going on here. I don't know what kind of elemental fashion show Halibel and Toshiro had going on, but there is no let when it comes to Grimmjow, only in your face constant pressure.

Base Grimmjow would low diff Hitsugaya. He likely never gets to even see Grimmjow's resurrection. He gets an arm through his torso in no time, Toshiro is not lasting a minute against Grimmjow's pressure.

Even if you want to believe that by some miracle he survives against base Grimmjow, the moment Grimmjow uses ressurection it's a clear cut stomp anyway.

Grimmjow vs Byakuya is a better battle but even that is a loss for Byakuya soon as Grimmjow transforms.
There is no way 100% that Grimmjow is going to be low diffing Toshiro in base. Halibel is everything Grimmjow is stats wise but better and she couldn't low diff him.
 
#16
There is no way 100% that Grimmjow is going to be low diffing Toshiro in base. Halibel is everything Grimmjow is stats wise but better and she couldn't low diff him.
I agree with this sentiment

That being said, Toshiro is still going to get merked by Grimmjow if they fought. Toshiro had an advantage against Harribel too as he could turn her tidal waves and bullshit against her. With Grimmjow he has no such elemental advantage
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#17
I agree with this sentiment

That being said, Toshiro is still going to get merked by Grimmjow if they fought. Toshiro had an advantage against Harribel too as he could turn her tidal waves and bullshit against her. With Grimmjow he has no such elemental advantage
There wasn't an advantage because Halibel could turn his ice into water, too. They were locked with equal abilities and unequal stats.
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#18
There is no way 100% that Grimmjow is going to be low diffing Toshiro in base. Halibel is everything Grimmjow is stats wise but better and she couldn't low diff him.
No she's not. All we know is she has superior reiatsu, there is no reason to gift her better speed than Grimmjow. Grimmjow doesn't fight so cute anyway, he straight up blitzes Hitsugaya.

Bankai + Hollow mask Ichigo vs Ulquiorra rd1, was a shitstomp, Ichigo could not even remotely keep up with a base Ulquiorra. He got killed in mere seconds.

Base Grimmjow could keep up with Ulquiorra and send him away. There is a massive gap between Hitsugaya and Bankai Ichigo's speed, let alone Bankai Ichigo with the Hollow Mask.

Grimmjow absolutely shitstomps Hitsugaya in base, he has no answer to his speed or strength up close. He gets ragdolled.

Base Ulquiorra > Base Grimmjow > Bankai + Hollow Mask Ichigo (pre Grimmjow fight) >> Hitsugaya. I don't see how Hitsugaya can push Base Grimmjow past low diff. How can he deal with the speed and pressure of Grimmjow in CQC?
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#19
Grimmjow for all intents and purposes was superior to any opponent Ichigo faced prior. Bleach is a pretty basic shounen, Kubo's not making Ichigo power up exponentially with his hollow to have a showdown with a weaker opponent than the ones he fought back on Soul Society with just Bankai. Kenpachi is a special case, he is as strong as he needs to be since he holds himself back (the version that fought Ichigo was weaker than Grimmjow anyway). Grimmjow is stronger than Byakuya, at worst, you can say they're comparable.

Hitsugaya who is the weakest Captain has nothing to do here. He got matched up with Halibel thanks to the nature of his power, and it's not like he beat her, literally the only Captain who couldn't put down their Espada matchup, and that was for good reason. He has no business taking on an opponent stronger than (or comparable to) Byakuya by himself. Even basic portrayal via Grimmjows fodder Fraccion, and Luppi, would let you know how far apart the two were.

Ichigo arguably already surpassed Hitsugaya back in the soul society arc, the version that fought Grimmjow, would body him.
 
Last edited:

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#20
Grimmjow for all intents and purposes was superior to any opponent Ichigo faced prior. Bleach is a pretty basic shounen, Kubo's not making Ichigo power up exponentially with his hollow to have a showdown with a weaker opponent than the ones he fought back on Soul Society with just Bankai.
Two things here.

If Bleach is a pretty basic Shonen, then we should probably not get too analytical with the Espada rankings and assume each superior rank presents the Espada as, indeed, stronger. I know the DBs say it measures reiatsu but reiatsu is literally the amount of spirit energy that can manifest. Apart from maybe experience in the case of Nelliel and Nnoitra, it's a very good measuring stick.

You also make the assumption that Ichigo who fought Grimmjow was the same that battled Byakuya.
Early Hueco Mundo Ichigo couldn't do anything to base Ulquiorra.
Zommari barely bushed Byakuya to Bankai difficulty.

Considering Byakuya had to use all but 1 of his bankai's abilities in his fight against Ichigo, it's safe to say Byakuya > Grimmjow. That and Kubo repeatedly had Byakuya and Zaraki paralleled against each other at the tail end of the arc.

Kenpachi is a special case, he is as strong as he needs to be since he holds himself back (the version that fought Ichigo was weaker than Grimmjow anyway). Grimmjow is stronger than Byakuya, at worst, you can say they're comparable.
Agreed. The Zaraki that Ichigo fought was barely Mid Tier Captain Shikai level.

Hitsugaya who is the weakest Captain has nothing to do here. He got matched up with Halibel thanks to the nature of his power, and it's not like he beat her, literally the only Captain who couldn't put down their Espada matchup, and that was for good reason. He has no business taking on an opponent stronger than (or comparable to) Byakuya by himself. Even basic portrayal via Grimmjows fodder Fraccion, and Luppi, would let you know how far apart the two were.
His portrayal against the Fraccion is when his power is limited to 1/4th of what it actually is. All VCs and Captains have the seal present on them, the moment it's removed he treats the Fraccion like children. For Luppi, literally, was undamaged and would've killed him. The only thing Hitsugaya needed was time. [1 -> 2 -> 3]

The weakest captain is Doggie. And then after him maybe Soi Fon. Hitsugaya's fairly strong.

Yeah—Toshiro couldn't beat someone whose stats should logically be a level above Ulquiorra's sans Segunda. It's insane that he could keep up with her at all, not be overwhelmed by her attacks. Besides, both their powers counteracted each other. It's not like either had an advantage.


Ichigo arguably already surpassed Hitsugaya back in the soul society arc, the version that fought Grimmjow, would body him.
Ichigo in the Soul Society arc was probably on par with Hitsugaya, if we discount his inner Hollow. He couldn't beat Byakuya but could push Byakuya to very high diff. I think Toshiro would do the same.
 
Top