[FNZ] Role Madness Game 04: Bleach Soul Society Arc

[TheAncientCenturion]

This post of yours suggests that you are convinced that Ryoka has to protect Rukia and that it's not possible that the Shinigami have to instead. Interesting.

Ryoka's win conditions is making sure Rukia survives. Whether that's a goal post by Day 4 (of the execution) or keeping a person alive, it's the same thing. The Shinigami / town wants to get rid of all threats to the town. These goals do not conflict.

 

[Rej]

the multiball theories tho
@Denim @krogothwolf what are the odds of AL and Flower hosting a multiball game of this size?
If ya all say 0% then we gotta move on before we get tons of playersalads

 

[Dragomir]

Let's pay attention here—goal of the Ryoka are to "save Rukia from execution". No one here has emphasized the importance of executing Rukia. The goals of the Ryoka and of the Gotei 13 do not conflict. At the very least, we can conclude that (if an ability), saving Rukia may require the demise of Kuchiki Byakuya. But I am not positive on that at all. It seems to be reaching massively.

I lean more towards Rukia being a win condition / requirement for the true Mafia and a town aligned survivor. Someone who has no role, probably no voting power, and if they die, the Ryoka automatically lose? I'm not sure if that's a standard condition for Mafia games, as it would imply an entire faction is undermined by 1 single player... Or the Ryoka faction is small.

My thoughts linger towards this being a similar situation as Dressrosa, where there were multiple factions that didn't immediately have a reason to go against one another.


So, let's take this statement apart, shall we?

If @MonkeyD.Luffy believes that the Captains of the Gotei 13 are Mafia, that would denote he is in fact not a Captain of the Gotei 13. He would not be comfortable making this statement if he (as a likely Ryoka) was blatantly scum. This is a statement born of confusion and not an attempt to redirect the conversation or a Mafia slip up.

It is my belief that this game will mirror the Soul Society arc in many ways.

In the Soul Society Arc, Ichigo and co. (the Ryoka) battled it out against the Gotei 13. But their objective was not to defeat the Gotei 13, but to rescue Rukia Kuchiki. Combat and fighting was a requirement in the worst situations. Ganju Shiba tried to free Rukia Kuchiki from her confinement prior to her execution, without battling any Shinigami. Their goal is rescue, not destroying the Gotei 13 (town).

The people who wanted that were those who contrived the arrest of Rukia Kuchiki—Sōsuke Aizen. Gin Ichimaru, Tosen Kaname—rogue Shinigami who plotted the downfall of the Gotei 13 in the shadows and used the Ryoka to sew chaos towards that end.

It is my belief that they are the Mafia in this game as well, mirroring their hidden role in the Soul Society arc. You might ask, "TAC, but Flower specifically mentioned the Ryoka in the intro post?" Exactly. This is a reference to the beginning of the Soul Society Arc where the traitorous trio were unknown. It also mentions "capture alive or dead" and is specifically to set the tone of the game, not to denote clear sides. This message does not mesh with the game mechanics and this isn't / shouldn't be used to define who is and isn't mafia.

It's a ruse. All of it, matching with the arc of Bleach this is based off of.

Now, this would mean the teams are likely;

3 Scum

Sōsuke Aizen​

Gin Ichimaru​

Tosen Kaname​

​

1 Independent

Rukia Kuchiki​

​

4 Ryoka

Ichigo Kurosaki​

Ishida Uryu​

Orihime Inoue​

Yoruichi Shihōin​

​

​

6 Shinigami of the Gotei 13

Byakuya Kuchiki​

Zaraki Kenpachi​

Renji Abarai​

Toshiro Hitsugaiya​

Misc.​

Misc.​

​

~~~~~~
​

Now, I think this mostly because the Ryoka & Shinigami will likely be numerous enough to clash / stir confusion over who is and isn't true town. I think this is the intention of the bastard abilities mentioned. But, I also think it extends further than that.

Looking at the likelyhood that Sōsuke Aizen is Mafia (and the game's equivalent to a godfather), we should look at his in-universe abilities. Maybe predict exactly what he can do, so we can gleam at what the player might be capable of? Kyoka Suigetsu allows Aizen to put anyone under a perfect hypnosis and manipulates all their senses absolutely. The only people who are not susceptible to this are those who haven't seen it—the Ryoka—whereas the Shinigami of the Gotei 13 are horribly vulnerable to this. For this reason, I suspect the Gotei 13 has 1 or more Investigatory roles and trying to investigate the Aizen player will yield no scummy responses. They will be clean.

It is also possible that the Aizen player may be "clean" until Day 2. IIRC, the manga, Aizen "died" in the first night of the Ryoka Invasion. After that, he plotted away whilst everyone's gaze was else where. So, even Night 1 Invest. results could be fraudulent.

Secondly, Tosen Kaname.. I'm assuming whoever plays Tosen will have a role blocking ability. In the manga, his Bankai stripped people of every sense they had. It's not an even, clean 1 | 1 fit, but I think it's appropriate. So anyone claiming such an ability, we should be wary of.

No idea what could fit Gin Ichimaru.

TL;DR: I have reason to believe, based off the manga information and the (intentional) disinformation from Flower that the Ryoka and Shinigami are not enemies. The Mafia is hidden, lurking out there, and we should be on guard for poor results at night. DO NOT instantly trust a cleared player.

​

This is very legit and makes a lot of sense. I can see the possibility where the Ryoka are some sort of group that can win with town. Now, the problem I see here is what's stopping them from just siding with mafia once they save Rukia and then overpowering town? If their wincon is to just save Rukia then, they're essentially a 3rd party group, basically making the game 6 vs 10, which is nonsense imo.

 

[Dragomir]

the multiball theories tho
@Denim @krogothwolf what are the odds of AL and Flower hosting a multiball game of this size?
If ya all say 0% then we gotta move on before we get tons of playersalads

It's fits the flavor a lot and is somewhat similar to what I did in my game. It could also be why this game has a warning of bastard mechanics since AL didn't like that I didn't mention bastard mechanics for my game. There's one issue that I have which is the Ryoka only wincon being that they have to rescue Rukia. That just makes them a 3rd party group that can win with anybody. If what TAC says is true with the numbers, then we got a 6v9 with 6 townies. Can't be happening. There's gotta be someway which the Ryoka have to go against the mafia and still be considered "town" so town has majority.

This is very legit and makes a lot of sense. I can see the possibility where the Ryoka are some sort of group that can win with town. Now, the problem I see here is what's stopping them from just siding with mafia once they save Rukia and then overpowering town? If their wincon is to just save Rukia then, they're essentially a 3rd party group, basically making the game 6 vs 10, which is nonsense imo.

6v9, not 10.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

This is very legit and makes a lot of sense. I can see the possibility where the Ryoka are some sort of group that can win with town. Now, the problem I see here is what's stopping them from just siding with mafia once they save Rukia and then overpowering town? If their wincon is to just save Rukia then, they're essentially a 3rd party group, basically making the game 6 vs 10, which is nonsense imo.

Because in the manga, Aizen had contrived the execution of Rukia Kuchiki to take out Urahara Kisuke's Hōgyoku from her body. Unknown to everyone but Aizen and his conspirators, Urahara hid away a powerful artifact that Aizen desperately desired. He intended to use the power of the Sōkyoku—a formal zanpakuto used to utterly burn criminal souls into oblivion—to retrieve the Hōgyoku.

Mafia's win condition might include killing Rukia Kuchiki, as well. In fact, Aizen (who is likely the GF role of this game) staged the entire thing around her & what she unknowingly had.

 

[krogothwolf]

Let's pay attention here—goal of the Ryoka are to "save Rukia from execution". No one here has emphasized the importance of executing Rukia. The goals of the Ryoka and of the Gotei 13 do not conflict. At the very least, we can conclude that (if an ability), saving Rukia may require the demise of Kuchiki Byakuya. But I am not positive on that at all. It seems to be reaching massively.

I lean more towards Rukia being a win condition / requirement for the true Mafia and a town aligned survivor. Someone who has no role, probably no voting power, and if they die, the Ryoka automatically lose? I'm not sure if that's a standard condition for Mafia games, as it would imply an entire faction is undermined by 1 single player... Or the Ryoka faction is small.

My thoughts linger towards this being a similar situation as Dressrosa, where there were multiple factions that didn't immediately have a reason to go against one another.


So, let's take this statement apart, shall we?

If @MonkeyD.Luffy believes that the Captains of the Gotei 13 are Mafia, that would denote he is in fact not a Captain of the Gotei 13. He would not be comfortable making this statement if he (as a likely Ryoka) was blatantly scum. This is a statement born of confusion and not an attempt to redirect the conversation or a Mafia slip up.

It is my belief that this game will mirror the Soul Society arc in many ways.

In the Soul Society Arc, Ichigo and co. (the Ryoka) battled it out against the Gotei 13. But their objective was not to defeat the Gotei 13, but to rescue Rukia Kuchiki. Combat and fighting was a requirement in the worst situations. Ganju Shiba tried to free Rukia Kuchiki from her confinement prior to her execution, without battling any Shinigami. Their goal is rescue, not destroying the Gotei 13 (town).

The people who wanted that were those who contrived the arrest of Rukia Kuchiki—Sōsuke Aizen. Gin Ichimaru, Tosen Kaname—rogue Shinigami who plotted the downfall of the Gotei 13 in the shadows and used the Ryoka to sew chaos towards that end.

It is my belief that they are the Mafia in this game as well, mirroring their hidden role in the Soul Society arc. You might ask, "TAC, but Flower specifically mentioned the Ryoka in the intro post?" Exactly. This is a reference to the beginning of the Soul Society Arc where the traitorous trio were unknown. It also mentions "capture alive or dead" and is specifically to set the tone of the game, not to denote clear sides. This message does not mesh with the game mechanics and this isn't / shouldn't be used to define who is and isn't mafia.

It's a ruse. All of it, matching with the arc of Bleach this is based off of.

Now, this would mean the teams are likely;

3 Scum

Sōsuke Aizen​

Gin Ichimaru​

Tosen Kaname​

​

1 Independent

Rukia Kuchiki​

​

4 Ryoka

Ichigo Kurosaki​

Ishida Uryu​

Orihime Inoue​

Yoruichi Shihōin​

​

​

6 Shinigami of the Gotei 13

Byakuya Kuchiki​

Zaraki Kenpachi​

Renji Abarai​

Toshiro Hitsugaiya​

Misc.​

Misc.​

​

~~~~~~
​

Now, I think this mostly because the Ryoka & Shinigami will likely be numerous enough to clash / stir confusion over who is and isn't true town. I think this is the intention of the bastard abilities mentioned. But, I also think it extends further than that.

Looking at the likelyhood that Sōsuke Aizen is Mafia (and the game's equivalent to a godfather), we should look at his in-universe abilities. Maybe predict exactly what he can do, so we can gleam at what the player might be capable of? Kyoka Suigetsu allows Aizen to put anyone under a perfect hypnosis and manipulates all their senses absolutely. The only people who are not susceptible to this are those who haven't seen it—the Ryoka—whereas the Shinigami of the Gotei 13 are horribly vulnerable to this. For this reason, I suspect the Gotei 13 has 1 or more Investigatory roles and trying to investigate the Aizen player will yield no scummy responses. They will be clean.

It is also possible that the Aizen player may be "clean" until Day 2. IIRC, the manga, Aizen "died" in the first night of the Ryoka Invasion. After that, he plotted away whilst everyone's gaze was else where. So, even Night 1 Invest. results could be fraudulent.

Secondly, Tosen Kaname.. I'm assuming whoever plays Tosen will have a role blocking ability. In the manga, his Bankai stripped people of every sense they had. It's not an even, clean 1 | 1 fit, but I think it's appropriate. So anyone claiming such an ability, we should be wary of.

No idea what could fit Gin Ichimaru.

TL;DR: I have reason to believe, based off the manga information and the (intentional) disinformation from Flower that the Ryoka and Shinigami are not enemies. The Mafia is hidden, lurking out there, and we should be on guard for poor results at night. DO NOT instantly trust a cleared player.

​

I realized I left out 1 possible player role. I suppose either the Ryoka or the Shinigami could have an additional player role. It's also likely that Zaraki Kenpachi could be an Independent, given his tenacity towards violence and lackluster appreciation for the rules. In the manga, he freely opposed other Captains before being made aware of any plot to bring down the Gotei 13.

The Flavour WU makes this seem logical for the most part, though I still feel my earlier view more aligned then this. Gotei 13 during this arc is split into 2 groups. 1 that wants the execution to pass and 1 that doesn't. Town could be the ryoko and allied Gotei 13. 3rds would be those with their own agenda, like Kenpachi. With mafia being the sinister hidden group, the shitty and horribly written Aizen aka, I just wanted to be beaten guy, and his cohorts. Gin wouldn't be anything but bad at this point because his true allegince wasnt revealt till much later so he would come up as mafia. Aizen is probably has something that messes with Invest. Gin's might be a kill or something as at this point he hadn't really done much. He tied up kenpachi, insulted people and fought.

I would feel shitty for the person who got a kidnapped role because that sucks to play lol. Though it could be why there is no claims allowed because that would be a easy claim to get and verify(though huge risks involved there of course)

Also Zaraki would be a chaos role if anything, probably something fight or kill x amount of characters. I highly doubt he'd be a SK but more a fight powerful people.

the multiball theories tho
@Denim @krogothwolf what are the odds of AL and Flower hosting a multiball game of this size?
If ya all say 0% then we gotta move on before we get tons of playersalads

Possible yes? Likely I dunno, currently my view is what I said earlier, anyone who is harmful to town deal with till we have a clearer understanding of what we'll see. IE when someone dies or we get invest results and we have a greater understanding of whats going on.

 

[Finalbeta]

I stand by the idea that Rukia being mafia holds no sense and so that the write up consists of the bastard mechanic, and that it makes us believe that the Ryoka are rescuing Rukia so that she is mafia aligned, but instead it's the Shinigami to have to protect her. In that case she is Town.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

The Flavour WU makes this seem logical for the most part, though I still feel my earlier view more aligned then this. Gotei 13 during this arc is split into 2 groups. 1 that wants the execution to pass and 1 that doesn't. Town could be the ryoko and allied Gotei 13. 3rds would be those with their own agenda, like Kenpachi. With mafia being the sinister hidden group, the shitty and horribly written Aizen aka, I just wanted to be beaten guy, and his cohorts. Gin wouldn't be anything but bad at this point because his true allegince wasnt revealt till much later so he would come up as mafia. Aizen is probably has something that messes with Invest. Gin's might be a kill or something as at this point he hadn't really done much. He tied up kenpachi, insulted people and fought.

I can't agree with your division. It seems too arbitrary and what captains wanted it to go through, surface level, in the Soul Society Arc?

• Yamamoto
• Soi Fon
• Doggie
• Tosen
• Gin Ichimaru

It's way too scatter shot. IMO, it's a lot more cohesive for the significant players in the Soul Society arc and the Ryoka to be either both town or be factions that need not conflict. Whereas Azien and his cohorts fits almost perfectly.

Also Zaraki would be a chaos role if anything, probably something fight or kill x amount of characters. I highly doubt he'd be a SK but more a fight powerful people.

If there is an indie role or something of the like, I would agree. Zaraki is the most likely candidate given his nonchalant attitude.

 

[krogothwolf]

I stand by the idea that Rukia being mafia holds no sense and so that the write up consists of the bastard mechanic, and that it makes us believe that the Ryoka are rescuing Rukia so that she is mafia aligned, but instead it's the Shinigami to have to protect her. In that case she is Town.

Why would anyone think Rukia would be mafia? No way would WU implying executing someone mean they're part of mafia lol

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I'll be back in a handful of hours to reread the thread.

 

[Finalbeta]

Why would anyone think Rukia would be mafia? No way would WU implying executing someone mean they're part of mafia lol

Rej was suspecting that earlier, part of the reason my eye got triggered.

 

[krogothwolf]

I can't agree with your division. It seems too arbitrary and what captains wanted it to go through, surface level, in the Soul Society Arc?

• Yamamoto
• Soi Fon
• Doggie
• Tosen
• Gin Ichimaru

It's way too scatter shot. IMO, it's a lot more cohesive for the significant players in the Soul Society arc and the Ryoka to be either both town or be factions that need not conflict. Whereas Azien and his cohorts fits almost perfectly.


If there is an indie role or something of the like, I would agree. Zaraki is the most likely candidate given his nonchalant attitude.

There's a fair amount of Gotei 13 and others allied with the Ryoko to need to split them into 2 factions, ryoko and shinigami.

Tosen, Gn, Aizen would be mafia yeah.

Ichigo, Chad, orihime, urya, renji, yorichia, jushiro, shunshui gives you 9 right there.

Leaves 3 random people to pick from Kenpachi being his own thing
Perhaps Byakuya is a 3rd and one other.

 

[krogothwolf]

Rej was suspecting that earlier, part of the reason my eye got triggered.

geg. That's just dumb

 

[krogothwolf]

Oops I missed the toshiro in my 9 from earlier.

 

[Rej]

geg. That's just dumb

I just said she might be a mafia aligned survivor, because for the "scum" she has to survive, that's what I interprete from the flavour, dunno where finalbeta got this asspull, he probably misunderstood what I meant
a scum aligned or mafia aligned survivor, only wins together with non townies, they can be rolebound they can be actualy roles with missions integrated, man I recently hosted such crazy indie roles myself and Flower played my game

 

[Rej]

it doesn't mean to be a role btw, it could equally be a scum aligned survivor mechanic too:smithnie:

 

[Rej]

So who we voting for? MDL? Beta? two not too bad options?
I start with
Vote lynch Finalbeta :cheers: too much defending of Rukia for my taste

 

[krogothwolf]

So who we voting for? MDL? Beta? two not too bad options?
I start with
Vote lynch Finalbeta :cheers:too much defending of Rukia for my taste

What is wrong with defending Rukia, its the logical thing to do here.

 

[Celestia]

I swear all the theme talk gave me a headache

I am lost here and don't care to check the characters on wiki since no claiming


So what did u guys who aware of the theme conclude on mdl ?

 

[krogothwolf]

I swear all the theme talk gave me a headache

I am lost here and don't care to check the characters on wiki since no claiming


So what did u guys who aware of the theme conclude on mdl ?

We were more talking about the game layout based on theme then actual who would be who, no claiming or not, figuring out how many we can be up against is helpful. You're to dismissive of flavour just because no claiming.

As for MDL, nothing really, Rej's eagerness to lynch someone for protecting Rukia is suspect though.