Controversial General Political Discussion
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I don't care.
It's also objectively true.
Correct. One supports effectively sending the nation to war on behalf of another state. The other is trying to protect their people (technically both are in some instances, given a lot of the protesters are foreign nationals with vested interests in the middle east).
Sophistry. This is apples and oranges. My decisions are based on my own beliefs, not on what a state says is the truth.
Do you understand that I don't care for your labels when they are misattributed? You care too much for something that has nothing to do with your nation. Learn some perspective.
Suspected as much.
It's also objectively true.
Correct. One supports effectively sending the nation to war on behalf of another state. The other is trying to protect their people (technically both are in some instances, given a lot of the protesters are foreign nationals with vested interests in the middle east).
Sophistry. This is apples and oranges. My decisions are based on my own beliefs, not on what a state says is the truth.
Do you understand that I don't care for your labels when they are misattributed? You care too much for something that has nothing to do with your nation. Learn some perspective.
Suspected as much.
Sorry. I might ask a lot of questions from now on, the way I view these discussions has changed drastically. I'm trying a new approach. I had some Self-questionning yesterday. I'm not expecting to convert you anymore. I still hope you will change your vision, but I think my last approach was uneffective and unreasonnably conflictual.
You won't see me label you directly either I believe (unless you say something I consider truly dark in which case I will tell you how revolutionnary would consider that OR I will directly report you I guess)... Some of the questions are meant to challenge the coherency of your belief system as I would do in a normal conversation, I invite you to do the same with me, but you can consider that I'm overall genuingly trying to be curious.
If you feel irritated by some my questions (that I believe are necessary in this thread) tell me and I will try to stop on that subject. I don't want a conflict to rise anymore as I consider it unproductive for that new approach.
And if you want to know more about that approach: Well basically, I'm will be trying to give you keys to open doors. I believe you will need them sooner or later. It's no use trying to give them to you by imposing them down your throats. I'll share what I know. I will question some of the things I hear to check the coherency and that's it.
Perhaps i'll stop the questionning thing along the line, I'm not sure yet.
Actually no, I don't believe that. Which is precisely why I believe all forms of revolutions have failed.
I believe that there are more problems than simply capitalism.
So you are against or for the anti-colonial and anti-neocoloniallism fights? (because you answer does not clarify that)
I'm not really asking if you care or not, I'm asking, do you think that there is a genocide or not in gaza at the moment?
What makes you say that the state saying that the disturbance of UK's arms industry that helps Israel is objectively an act of terrorism?
You mean the war on Ukraine? Do you think people trying to stop the genocide are pro-war?
Also, I don't understand, you are saying that police is targeting more the right wings, but I don't remember that there have been thousands of arrest for them. Do you have more data on that?
And how do you make sure your descision are not influenced by the state or the ruling class? Wouldn't you agree that the fact that you are precisely having anti-immigration values align strangely with the interests of the ruling class who is currently trying to promote anti-immigration policies? (I'm not talking specifically about the labor, but the investors, the billionnaires, people like Bollore in France)
Also second question here, if you feel like the powers in europe are pro-immigration, why are there still people dying in the seas, or in the streets or in the detention camps? Wouldn't a pro-immigration power try to prevent these things from happening?
I believe french people should be able to fight neocolonialism is the west too.
How do you think Africa should fight back?
You won't see me label you directly either I believe (unless you say something I consider truly dark in which case I will tell you how revolutionnary would consider that OR I will directly report you I guess)... Some of the questions are meant to challenge the coherency of your belief system as I would do in a normal conversation, I invite you to do the same with me, but you can consider that I'm overall genuingly trying to be curious.
If you feel irritated by some my questions (that I believe are necessary in this thread) tell me and I will try to stop on that subject. I don't want a conflict to rise anymore as I consider it unproductive for that new approach.
And if you want to know more about that approach: Well basically, I'm will be trying to give you keys to open doors. I believe you will need them sooner or later. It's no use trying to give them to you by imposing them down your throats. I'll share what I know. I will question some of the things I hear to check the coherency and that's it.
Perhaps i'll stop the questionning thing along the line, I'm not sure yet.
Actually no, I don't believe that. Which is precisely why I believe all forms of revolutions have failed.
I believe that there are more problems than simply capitalism.
So you are against or for the anti-colonial and anti-neocoloniallism fights? (because you answer does not clarify that)
I'm not really asking if you care or not, I'm asking, do you think that there is a genocide or not in gaza at the moment?
What makes you say that the state saying that the disturbance of UK's arms industry that helps Israel is objectively an act of terrorism?
You mean the war on Ukraine? Do you think people trying to stop the genocide are pro-war?
Also, I don't understand, you are saying that police is targeting more the right wings, but I don't remember that there have been thousands of arrest for them. Do you have more data on that?
And how do you make sure your descision are not influenced by the state or the ruling class? Wouldn't you agree that the fact that you are precisely having anti-immigration values align strangely with the interests of the ruling class who is currently trying to promote anti-immigration policies? (I'm not talking specifically about the labor, but the investors, the billionnaires, people like Bollore in France)
Also second question here, if you feel like the powers in europe are pro-immigration, why are there still people dying in the seas, or in the streets or in the detention camps? Wouldn't a pro-immigration power try to prevent these things from happening?
Fight neocolonialism in the West
Fight neocolonialism in Africa
Fight neocolonialism in Africa
How do you think Africa should fight back?
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The industry doesn't only help Israel.
Yes, but I also don't care. It is not my duty. With all the pressing concerns in my country, it would be suicidal empathy.
I do not trust they are pure of intent. Many of these individuals are incredibly ideologically captured and anti-western in their values. There are also many Islamists in their ranks who actively hate western societies. Never work with subversive forces - that includes non-Islamic ones, by the way.
I can't, but you cannot do so either. The west is not anti-immigration. In fact, the UK recently released new plans that will increase immigration further by allowing immigrants to sponsor other immigrants to come here, effectively flooding the country. Billionaires LOVE immigrants, they drive down wages for the working class by flooding the market with low-skilled labour, forcing locals to take lower wages in the process. You know nothing of economics.
As for your second question, people are dying at sea because there is a distinct advantage to showing up on a dingy. They can throw their passports overboard to make it more difficult to send them back. Coming by plane does not have this advantage. Also, people smugglers, never forget those people.
They don't even deserve camps. They should be sent back where they come from, but sadly, they're not. They're hosted in hotels in this country and given free money. Don't act like France is all of Europe.
The reality is, the working populace slave away, pay taxes, and have their hard earned money diverted from public services towards helping these leeches. I don't care.
Yes, but I also don't care. It is not my duty. With all the pressing concerns in my country, it would be suicidal empathy.
I do not trust they are pure of intent. Many of these individuals are incredibly ideologically captured and anti-western in their values. There are also many Islamists in their ranks who actively hate western societies. Never work with subversive forces - that includes non-Islamic ones, by the way.
I can't, but you cannot do so either. The west is not anti-immigration. In fact, the UK recently released new plans that will increase immigration further by allowing immigrants to sponsor other immigrants to come here, effectively flooding the country. Billionaires LOVE immigrants, they drive down wages for the working class by flooding the market with low-skilled labour, forcing locals to take lower wages in the process. You know nothing of economics.
As for your second question, people are dying at sea because there is a distinct advantage to showing up on a dingy. They can throw their passports overboard to make it more difficult to send them back. Coming by plane does not have this advantage. Also, people smugglers, never forget those people.
They don't even deserve camps. They should be sent back where they come from, but sadly, they're not. They're hosted in hotels in this country and given free money. Don't act like France is all of Europe.
The reality is, the working populace slave away, pay taxes, and have their hard earned money diverted from public services towards helping these leeches. I don't care.
Sure, but helping Israel when it colonizing two country, bombing a third, while genociding a population and being a appartheid state, I believe this is enough to act. After all, I don't think we should just wait for people to act simply because an industry helps other stuff. To me it feels like saying "well, the lives of millions is worth less".
Ok, but if you are aknowledging that there is a genocide and you don't care about gaza, why do you care about calling people who try to do something against it "terrorists"?
I'm kind of the most radical leftist you could find outside of people who would actually take arms. And yet, even I do not believe that we should go to war. In fact I've never seen people advocate - as a tangible strategy - to go to war. Of course, some would like the west scare the shit out of Israel for once, but no one is asking that.
So whoever they are, why do you think that trying to stop the genocide means pushing the west to go to war when there are other options before that (that are not executed)?
Are you talking about people who enter legally or illegally here?
Because I do not see how the west can be pro-immigration, while preventing migrants to access to right or even refuge or even simply enter the territory (thousands of death at sea). I do not understand the logic here.
We are pro-immigration, but it means what it means lol. It means giving papers to migrant who come here currently "illegally", letting them access to jobs, voting system etc. In other words be part of the community. Where do you see that in Europe at the moment?
So why are they pushing for far right politics which are against immigrations (trumps, bollore etc.) ? Where are you seeing billionnaires promote the complete social acceptation of migrant both coming legally and illegally ?
Ok, but at what point is this "love" for migrants here?
I mean, the left wants to integrates migrant in society alright. But isn't what you are showing me a capitalistic desire to exploit people? Isn't it what we are denouncing on the left through anti-capitalism?
Well, yeah, there are no open windows to throw the passport away and you get controlled everytime after you arrive...
Why do you think people are risking their lives?
Where they are in danger? (for most) Or where their family are in economic disasters ? (for the others)
If your country tried to oppress you or if you had no future left in your in it, wouldn't you like if another country welcomed you and gave you new opportunities?
Can you give me the sources for that?
And you still do not believe capitalism could be the cause of that?
Ok, but if you are aknowledging that there is a genocide and you don't care about gaza, why do you care about calling people who try to do something against it "terrorists"?
I'm kind of the most radical leftist you could find outside of people who would actually take arms. And yet, even I do not believe that we should go to war. In fact I've never seen people advocate - as a tangible strategy - to go to war. Of course, some would like the west scare the shit out of Israel for once, but no one is asking that.
So whoever they are, why do you think that trying to stop the genocide means pushing the west to go to war when there are other options before that (that are not executed)?
Are you talking about people who enter legally or illegally here?
Because I do not see how the west can be pro-immigration, while preventing migrants to access to right or even refuge or even simply enter the territory (thousands of death at sea). I do not understand the logic here.
We are pro-immigration, but it means what it means lol. It means giving papers to migrant who come here currently "illegally", letting them access to jobs, voting system etc. In other words be part of the community. Where do you see that in Europe at the moment?
So why are they pushing for far right politics which are against immigrations (trumps, bollore etc.) ? Where are you seeing billionnaires promote the complete social acceptation of migrant both coming legally and illegally ?
Ok, but at what point is this "love" for migrants here?
I mean, the left wants to integrates migrant in society alright. But isn't what you are showing me a capitalistic desire to exploit people? Isn't it what we are denouncing on the left through anti-capitalism?
Well, yeah, there are no open windows to throw the passport away and you get controlled everytime after you arrive...
Why do you think people are risking their lives?
Where they are in danger? (for most) Or where their family are in economic disasters ? (for the others)
If your country tried to oppress you or if you had no future left in your in it, wouldn't you like if another country welcomed you and gave you new opportunities?
Can you give me the sources for that?
And you still do not believe capitalism could be the cause of that?
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Yes, the millions in Gaza mean less to me than those whom said industries may benefit in my country. Correct.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/asylum-accommodation-in-the-uk/
You may not know this, but it's incredibly easy to access our benefits system. Come over on a dingy, Logiko, you could probably leech off us if you wanted.
Because they're actual terrorists who damage UK industry which is used for many things, not just helping Israel in Gaza. Christ, Logiko, the weapons factories also supply weapons for our national self-defense.
I actually don't want to exploit them. I want them to go home and build their own nations. We also take in so many skilled workers from developing countries, crippling their own industries. The left is also funded by corporations, Logiko. The pushing of migrants and immigration only benefits the rich. You're not stupid, you should be able to work out who benefits from lowered wages and more competition in the labour market.
Also, it is not my place to love them. I will not love people who do not love my country, and most of them do not. They want to exploit it.
Most are economic migrants. Statistically most of the migrants are men. They're not women and children, who I would welcome more in a humanitarian sense. They want a better life, sure, but they should build their own countries up, not damage the prospects for others here whilst being exploited at the same time.
That's fatalism. They should build their country up. The same people who you sympathise for would not show you the same consideration, mate. I've lived in areas with these sorts of people. You can say: "All are welcome," and it will attract the vultures who seek to take advantage of your kindness. No more.
I never said capitalism was not a problem. That's Nameless. I just do not believe communism is a system solves our problems.
See, you're getting it. The dingy allows them to prevent themselves being deported when they KNOW they're doing something wrong.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/asylum-accommodation-in-the-uk/
You may not know this, but it's incredibly easy to access our benefits system. Come over on a dingy, Logiko, you could probably leech off us if you wanted.
Because they're actual terrorists who damage UK industry which is used for many things, not just helping Israel in Gaza. Christ, Logiko, the weapons factories also supply weapons for our national self-defense.
I actually don't want to exploit them. I want them to go home and build their own nations. We also take in so many skilled workers from developing countries, crippling their own industries. The left is also funded by corporations, Logiko. The pushing of migrants and immigration only benefits the rich. You're not stupid, you should be able to work out who benefits from lowered wages and more competition in the labour market.
Also, it is not my place to love them. I will not love people who do not love my country, and most of them do not. They want to exploit it.
Most are economic migrants. Statistically most of the migrants are men. They're not women and children, who I would welcome more in a humanitarian sense. They want a better life, sure, but they should build their own countries up, not damage the prospects for others here whilst being exploited at the same time.
That's fatalism. They should build their country up. The same people who you sympathise for would not show you the same consideration, mate. I've lived in areas with these sorts of people. You can say: "All are welcome," and it will attract the vultures who seek to take advantage of your kindness. No more.
I never said capitalism was not a problem. That's Nameless. I just do not believe communism is a system solves our problems.
See, you're getting it. The dingy allows them to prevent themselves being deported when they KNOW they're doing something wrong.
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bro.
