Great Generals Tournament, Winners R1 - Round 2

Who Wins?


  • Total voters
    18
#41
I don't know how reliable these stats are and doesn't matter, but just wanted to show some folks here how Hara view Yo Tan Wa in respect to other characters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kingdom/comments/916aue
Max Stats - 291.
Renpa (Zhao)
Gaku Ki (Yan)

Next - 290
Ri Boku. (Zhao)
Yo Tan Wa (Qin)

Next - 286
Ou ki (Qin)
Kyou (Qin)

I am hoping this might lead to some re-considering their stance on Yo Tan Wa being no match for Riboku, even after processing this much advantage in Mountain forces.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#42
I am hoping this might lead to some re-considering their stance on Yo Tan Wa being no match for Riboku, even after processing this much advantage in Mountain forces.
I don't really remember (I just binged 600 chapters lol) but does Yo Tan Wa have subordinates who are good with tactics ?

I only really remember their fighting strength.
 
#43
I don't really remember (I just binged 600 chapters lol) but does Yo Tan Wa have subordinates who are good with tactics ?

I only really remember their fighting strength.
Dento, aka King Freedo, could see through Yo Tan Wa strategy as whole, how YTW had to lure Rozo out, more so due to food shortage and capture City in the process, and also to gain opportunity to slay Rozo.
His reasons for revealing the same info to SSJ(Riboku's Deputy), is again to send SSJ(Zhao forces) on futile chase of city and to minimise Rozo forces so they can take him out, and that's what they did.

Kitari n Heki troops were when cornered by Quanrong commander i.e One of Rozo's brothers, Kitari comments how Katari wouldn't let this opportunity slip pass by, to slay him. Hinting it was their tactical strategy to divert commander attntion to em.
(tho they couldn't see it through since enemy commander uses his underlings as sacrifice to restrict Katari, thn penetrating him through those same soldiers.)

I can't make up a more detailed post at the moment, but YTW forces consists of tribes that fought and acted on their own, they have been plenty skillfull on their own.

In fact, it is one of the pros of YTW forces that each unit/tribes are capable of acting on their own.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#44
Dento, aka King Freedo, could see through Yo Tan Wa strategy as whole, how YTW had to lure Rozo out, more so due to food shortage and capture City in the process, and also to gain opportunity to slay Rozo.
His reasons for revealing the same info to SSJ(Riboku's Deputy), is again to send SSJ(Zhao forces) on futile chase of city and to minimise Rozo forces so they can take him out, and that's what they did.

Kitari n Heki troops were when cornered by Quanrong commander i.e One of Rozo's brothers, Kitari comments how Katari wouldn't let this opportunity slip pass by, to slay him. Hinting it was their tactical strategy to divert commander attntion to em.
(tho they couldn't see it through since enemy commander uses his underlings as sacrifice to restrict Katari, thn penetrating him through those same soldiers.)

I can't make up a more detailed post at the moment, but YTW forces consists of tribes that fought and acted on their own, they have been plenty skillfull on their own.

In fact, it is one of the pros of YTW forces that each unit/tribes are capable of acting on their own.
For me I voted Riboku too because I think that there will be macro/global management from Yo Tan Wa and Riboku for their armies but there will be micro management too from each wings or part of the armies.

And I think that the little white hair guy will be hard to counter for a wing with his tactical skills.
And Riboku army has a lot of tactical skills, they can make formations effectively and can adapt because they were with Riboku for many years.

Same to a lesser extent to Banaji. And Kin Mou too if he is there.
There is also Kaine, Fu tei, the Earls etc.

And if a wing managed to beat the mountain wing they can do a pincer etc
 
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#45
Riboku has likely dozens of good tactics under his belt, he can be instinctical (which is hard to counter when you are not) and tactical (where he is a beast).
For exemple the crane formation of Riboku seemed quite efficient, OuSen managed to stalemate it but this is OuSen.
Ousen stalemated the whole Instinctual gimmick Riboku was using through force of arms.


Now the average Qin Soldier is equal to the average Zhao Soldier. The average Mountain Warrior however is worth at least two Zhao Soldiers at bare minimum.

What this creates is a colossal difference in strength between a Mountain Warrior Army and an opposing average Chinese Army to the point where the Mountain Warriors can immediately buckle and then completely crush the front line of any Chinese Army that is at or less than their own number.




If Riboku tries his instinctual tactics then it will completely backfire.

As for conventional strategy, there is little that will work against the Mountain Tribes as they are not a conventional foe.
To be fair, Yotanwa is comparing them not to her own faction that consists of numerous tribes but rather the individual tribes she had fought or was fighting at the time such as the Mera and the Feego, who individually would not match a Xiongnu force but united under Yotanwa, they would.

I would actually say that the Ryuudou is exactly the kind of formation that the Mountain Warriors would overcome through sheer strength.

The Ryuudou has only ever worked for a defending army that is significantly larger than the force attacking it.

100,000 Wei Ryuudou vs 10,000 or less Qin assault. The Wei force is 10x larger.

40,000 Zhao Ryuudou vs 5000 Qin assault. The Zhao force is 8x larger.

The Ryuudou has also only ever been used to redirect the attack of a single wedge formation charge.

In my opinion, the Ryuudou cannot deal with either multiple large scale attacks simultaneously (e.g. if any combination of Yotanwa, Katari, Kitari, Danto, Bajio and even Shunmen attack in sync) or with an assault force equal or nearly equal to the defending army.

It also only works when the attacker is specifically aiming for the defender’s headquarters and also if the attackers fight as a unit.
What would likely happen here is that instead of a Mountain Warrior unit being split up by a clump of Zhao soldiers, a few mountain mad lads would jump straight at that clump, open the formation up and allow everyone else to slaughter some Zhao and then move on the enemy headquarters anyway.

Mountain Warriors produce individuals that lay on the ground after being hit by crossbow bolts so that they can disrupt and open up an enemy formation and charge at retreating Zhao soldiers going through a gate just to have first blood.









Mountain Warriors are legit mad lads on the individual level. Trying to separate them on a unit level is not going to work. :catsweat:

You have either never read Kingdom at all or have never gotten past Chapter 20 of Kingdom, have you?

The strategic mastermind behind the actions of the Zhao forces in the Battle of Ryuuyuuwas not anyone from the “simple minded Dog People” but Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategic prowess, who Yotanwa outright outsmarted by using herself as bait, luring the Quanrong King Rozo and his main force out and taking the relatively unguarded city right from everyone’s noses.

The mountain people overcame the odds specifically because Yotanwa is a great strategist who can come up with a workable plan quickly, under great pressure.

To be fair, he outmaneuvered Ouki due to Ouki (or anyone outside of Zhao for that matter) not even being aware of his existence.

Despite this, Ouki still correctly predicted the existence of Riboku’s Army and that his army would arrive with the intent of trapping him. He only miscalculated the speed of Riboku’s Army. Riboku basically won out on a technicality.

Besides, if we count that as Riboku outsmarting Ouki then Yotanwa has canonically already outsmarted Riboku during the Battle of Sai.




I believe Yotanwa is being heavily underrated in this thread.

Riboku, in my rankings, would naturally be among the absolute top of the highest possible tier in my ranking list, the “Greatest Tactician” tier. Yotanwa would at minimum be in the upper end of the tier below Riboku, the “Master Tactician” tier. At best, she would be at the lower end of the same tier as Riboku.

Now one might think this naturally gives Riboku the strategic/tactical advantage over Yotanwa. However, there is a problem for Riboku here.

Riboku’s tactics and strategies are designed to deal with traditional Chinese armies or the cavalry oriented Xiongnu. They are not designed to deal with Yotanwa and her completely unorthodox army.

Got twice as many troops as her? Too bad, she still matches your army.

Got something nicely hidden and tucked away out of sight? Too bad, Yotanwa has these human bloodhounds on hand.



Got more archers than her? Too bad, an entire tribe’s worth of her archers can fire off five arrows at once in their opening volley.


Got a nicely defended headquarters up a vertical cliff?
Sucks to be you. :watchout:

The other thing that is overlooked is Yotanwa’s organisational abilities. She took multiple armies from across an entire realm and united and organised them all into a single effective fighting force all well within her lifetime.

Yotanwa is the undisputed King of the Mountains for a reason. :akaman:
I would not be surprised if she does win. Yotanwa herself is a great tactician and one of the strongest dualists in the manga. Her numerous subordinates are all powerful dualists and her entire army is simply overpowered.

All these form a winning combo.

The armies I expect to do best are Yotanwa and her army of mad lads, Great Heaven Renpa and his Four Heavenly Chads, Ousen and his ever growing army of nakama and last but certainly not least, Great Heaven Rinshoujou and his manimals.
:rolaugh:

While we are still on Yotanwa’s Army then there is one other advantage that the Yotanwa Army possesses over most other armies that has not yet been mentioned by anyone thus far in this tournament.

An overwhelming dread factor.

Mountain Warriors, through their personal strength and sheer brutality, inspire fear and terror into the enemy to the point that they can demoralise opposing armies.

Such as when 300 Mountain Warriors drove off and routed a supposedly several thousand Jin Army


As well as the Battle of Retsubi where Yotanwa crushed the morale of the Zhao defenders.


Demoralising the enemy is the quickest way to defeat them for if one’s opponent has no will to fight then they simply won’t.
He can go himself too to strike the opponents leaders.
Riboku has very few martial might feats and he rarely leads a strike personally. The only time he did so was a surprise attack against Makou, another individual with no martial might feats, when Makou’s back was turned on him.

Not only that but Riboku was so confident in being able to single handedly kill Makou, that he also brought along Kaine and Futei.

Compare this to Yotanwa and all her major subordinates, who all dive blade first into glorious, bloody combat then Riboku should stay away from anyone above Shunmen’s level.

And in a 100K battle not everything is decieded by your own might : and Riboku has a strong tactical subordinate with the little white haired man (forgot his name). I don't want to disrespect Heki but if this guy faces Heki on a wing his men will beat him.
Why is Heki the only commander in one of Yotanwa’s wings? Yotanwa has Katari, Kitari, Bajio, Danto and obviously herself in this matchup.

If Heki is hypothetically the only commander facing off against Shunsuiji then that means Yotanwa’s other wing and centre has everyone else (Yotanwa herself, Bajio, Danto, Katari, Kitari, Shunmen and Tajifu) in them and honestly, that much concentrated metaphorical firepower all focused in just two places combined with the absurd strength of the Mountain Warrior Army, is simply going to completely steamroll whatever is daft enough to stand in it’s way.

By that point, the outcome of Heki vs Shunsuiji is completely irrelevant. It likely will not even conclude.
The only way for Tan Wa to wins this is really if her mountain tribes are enraged Hi Shin unit like and explode everything.
Mountain Warriors go completely ape shit just from seeing Yotanwa, let alone getting deliberately stirred up into a frenzy by her.
As for when she does stir them up into an unstoppable frenzy, well the Quanrong who witnessed such a sight would currently be suffering from extreme PTSD if it were not for the fact that they all got slaughtered.

:rolaugh:

But all in all I think Riboku ill wins this but it will be difficult.
Give Riboku 200,000 Zhao soldiers along with Gyou’Un and Chougaryuu as additional subordinates, then he has a good chance.

With only 100,000 Zhao soldiers and only Bananji for a decent dualist then Riboku is doomed.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
 
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