1. Hisoka and Illumi are long time acquaintances so that isn't proof that Hisoka can sense people hiding their power. And Illumi is not one to hide his power. He shows his blood lust quite freely so that cannot be used as a point. And you're comparing people with far less experience in nen and its uses to Bisky. Illumi and Kalluto are literal children when it comes to nen compared to Bisky. And it is factual that very experinced nen masters can hide how strong they are. Zeno notes that was one of Netero's strong points. Binolt is far from fodder lol. To put this in perspective, Hisoka had to put in effort against pre greed island training Gon in Heavens Arena yet, Bisky determined that Binolt would have killed Gon and Killua if they fought him alone and that was after Binolt was already injured. The point with the hair is that Binolt thought he was a match for Bisky and that he could kill her before actually learning how strong she is through her ability. It highlights just how good she is at hiding how strong. Hisoka didn't pay Bisky any mind in GI because he had no way to gauge her power. And again, Hisoka's criteria are purely subjective and fails to take into account so many other factors that are important in a nen battle.
The fact is that Hisoka wasn't even paying attention to the stage, he felt Illumi and his power level even if he was not even concentrated on him and the other hunters in row. Also you can't assume Illumi was leaking out bloodlust or any other revealing factor, that happened when he was provoked by Hisoka or when Illumi wanted to frighten Killua. We can not assume that Illumi was revealing anything while in row to make his vote.. Kalluto is most likely still below Biscuit (and it could be that she never surpasses her, we don't know that) but I wouldn't be so sure about Illumi, anyway let's not make this larger any further.
Binolt was at best a mid tier for Greed island arc, in the end Killua and Gon surpassed him in the span of a few days, Chimera ant arc Gon or Killua (or Knucle to take another guy) would totally destroy Binolt. Well, Hisoka put effort in fighting Gon in the heaven arena but we got later showings of Hisoka that show that he can do a lot more than that.. Biscuit determined that Binolt could have killed them , that is for sure but those were early Greed island Gon and Killua who didn't had done yet any kind of training by Biscuit and also they anyway become stronger by fighting Binolt in the span of a few days (there is a lot of focus on how Gon and Killua get stronger and stronger after certain events like trainings, more times than not). Another point is that to beat Binolt Biscuit didn't even need to use her strong form unlike what happened with Bara (and we can not say Bara is a monster since Greed island Killua took out his other pal without much effort either), far from that she ended him with a couple of blows and didn't even use any kind of nen. And to end the Binolt point Biscuit himself at the end says that Binolto was comparable powerwise to a D rank card so multiple points to show that Binolto wasn't a big deal at all.
Now we can not compare Binolt ability to judge Biscuit to what Hisoka does usually or him judging the Zoadiacs and hunters in row to vote. Binolto was used as a total hype tool for Biscuit and then training material for Gon and Killua, that was his full purpose, while Hisoka is one of the MCs and him giving those judgment without any kind of correction by anybody later has to be taken seriously and it is the best way to judge overall people powerlevels unless we have a better source to gauge them. Also of course Hisoka gave a general powerlevel judgment and for every fight there are circumstances that can totally tilt the odds yet if Hisoka puts the fat guy at 90, tiger at 85 and then Illumi at 95 and there is no other real power level gauge we can use (let's say a fight between tiger and Illumi and the likes) we have to assume that, without particular circumstances, Illumi is most likely stornger than these guys (then of course they can have a storng hatsu, prepare like Chrollo did with Hisoka etc.). Then of course, the zodiacs were handpick by Netero as his sparring partners but do you think Netero went remotely close to what he did vs Meruem? Nope, not chance. Before getting back to that level first of all he get his special training suit (lol) to underline how he was serious, then had to kill waves of enemies before saying he was startiing to get back his touch and then he also meditate/train for a bit on a peak in order to be at his best form (the one direction Killua avoided because he sensed something amiss and that was Netero meditating to gather power) said this the zodiacs are not fodder at all, Hisoka gave them very high points (85 and 90 mean that they are close to Hisoka most likely, but still a bit below probably since it seems his power is 100, yet this just an assumption but it the genral assumption people takes) while the other hunters in row get way lower grades (10, 40 etc.) Hisoka even considered taking them as his next targets (even if of course he would have liked more guys like Ging) and I say again that unless we have a better gauge those general powerlevels are the best meter we have to judge these zodiacs power level at least compared to Hisoka and Illumi.
2. Go read the panel again. She had less time to react to the ball than Hisoka and dodged it cleanly with her physical ability while suppressed and only got tagged out because her dress is puffy. Hisoka had more time to dodge the ball because it came for Bisky first unless you're going to say that his reaction time is so shit that he didn't realize a ball was coming until it came directly to his face. And no lol, it was no with his bare hand. The ball hit him in the face and he used bungee gum to catch it not his pure physicals. It's not ludicrous to suggest that speed wise at the very least the outclasses Hisoka. Addtionally, the only reason she went into her normal form was because she was running short on time and wanted to finish things quickly. And you're acting like it's not a black mark on her now for using her normal unsupressed form to train Killua who you keep harping has immense potential. And you're making the assumption that she was going all out when she demonstrated that she could kill them if she even got remotely serious. Her Ko is so strong that a little Ko on her finger with no added physical force is enough to send them flying. And yes, Hisoka would deal with scrubs with massive flaws relatively easily.
No, you should reread them maybe. She was closer to the ball than Hisoka so she had less time yet Hisoka started his real dodge only from the moment Biscuit dodged it (and we can not say she did it cleanly, maybe we can't even say she dodged it "dirty" afterall because the ball hit her dress and she got eliminated, what would have ahppened if that was a nen ability of course would have depended on the ability, anyway for the sake of the discussion we can say that she dodged it but for sure not cleanly dodged, unlike Hisoka) since he could not say what was gonna happen (was Biscuit going to catch it, avoid it like she did, redirect it to a completely unknown direction..) so he really started to dodge only from that point and despite that he did it cleanly. But the problem started the next moment, Hisoka dodged the ball but at point blank there the nen beast of Razor who took the ball and rethrow it to an unbalanced Hisoka, at that point the ball was thrown at this face from point blank (and everybody was rightly concerned that Hisoka was going to be eliminated and injured, this is the real feat of all this point) yet using bungee gum and a good reaction time he took it with his hand, it never hit his head, that was the impact of his own hand who was between the ball and his face. It is ludicrous to say she did better than Hisoka in her weak form when her weak form was not enough to deal with Bara and also was not enough to train Killua in the Chimera ant arc before going vs Knucle and Shoot. The point is that you say her weak form outclassed Hisoka and that is not acceptable when she failed to do the things I mentioned above in her weak form, also if she in her weak form is already above Hisoka what do you really think about her? Would she mid diff the likes of Hisoka/Illumi/Chrollo? Maybe beat even Ging? Just to know.
I will post the panels.
3. And you have to define strong. This isn't one piece. In H x H you must define conditions. Chrollo may have combat superiority over the other spiders (that is not even a guarantee) but it quite heavily depends on the circumstance. As a specialist and due to the nature of his abilities, it's quite literally a toss up if he faces the likes of Uvo, Nobu, Phinks, Feitan, Machi and Shalnark in a 1 v1 when he has no time to prepare.The Enhancers and Transmuters would be able to overpower him as a result of just having better affinity for enhancement as made evident by his engagement with Zeno so, no you can without a doubt say that Chrollo is "stronger" because thats not how fights in H x H work.
Sure, but if we start to take in exam conditions, situations, circumstances we will never ever come out of this (hardly we will even just considering general circumstances like these wall texts we are exchanging demonstrate), it is like for the pwoerlevels Hisoka dished out (85, 90, 95 etc.) they are general indicator and say just a general powerlevel indicator but if we have no other pointers and these are the best we have we have to follow them (Netero choosing the zodiacs as his sparring partners doesn't really work for an argument since there are a lot of other elements to consider, the one I said above, Netero for sure didn't fought them with a fraction of what he used vs Meruem, and also you can not put simply in strong guys but also guys who would first of all accpet, doubt Illumi or Hisoka will, and strength can not only be the only factor to consider, they most likely have to be experienced hunter with at the very least years of exp and accomplishments etc. etc. oh, and then there are Pariston and Gin who are outliners XD).
4. Proclaiming she is a double star hunter is used to measure her experience. And, unlike the others you have brought up, her line of work requires that she is extremely competent in combat. Bisky trains all the time by her own admission. The people you mention have cushy jobs that don't require them to fight or train. Bisky has been training for the past 40 years and does so constantly and is actually a field Hunter. And what proof do you have that Chrollo, Hisoka and Illumi are above the Zodiacs who are handpicked sparring partners of Netero?. You have nothing to substantiate such a claim. Netero's gauage of strength and combat ability > Hisoka's whose evaulation is based purely on instincts and first impressions. And no all Zodiacs can be compared to Ging but, by virtue of being handpicked by the strongest Human Nen user in history as sparring partners, their strength cannot be questioned especially when you're making wild claims about Hisoka, Chrollo and the like being above them without proof to justify such claims.
Already replied above to the zodiac point. Also Hisoka giving numbers is Togashi giving numbers through Hisoka, and those numbers have not been disproved to this day by any other source (but I already said this).
5. You make wild assumptions and jump to conclusions with very little logical progression for that logic but you discount simple logic of the process of nen users and their abilities. I will reiterate from Cookie Chan, Cookie Chan is not an ability for a nen novice. Cookie Chan requires mastery of categories that are downright inefficient and detrimental to be formulated by a novice without crippling conditions. Nen users who are in the field usually crate a combat oriented ability because becoming stronger is one of the first things they try to achieve. Bisky trains nen users for combat and has 40 years of combat and nen experince yet she can be assumed to not have one?
Cookie chan is for sure a complex ability who requires a lot of nen ability but I bet you agree in a combat that ability would be almost useless (at least with the infos we have about it nowadays) and we can not use any other hatsu for her since she hasn't shown any to this point. So again we will have to wait for Togashi to show her combat hatsu if that day will ever come.
6. Even if we assume she lacks a nen ablity, who says you need a complicated nen ability to win a nen battle? Enhancers can literally get away with Ko punches as their Hatsu and are very efficient and effective because they have a high efficiency and mastery for enhancement. Bisky has 80% efficiency for enhancement and shows immense mastery for enhancement as virtue by how instanteous her Ko is, how instantaneous she can redirect her aura, and how long she can sustain her use of Ren.
For sure a nen ability combat oriented helps, I think we don't need to discuss this, don't we? If wìshe was a reinforcer like Gon or Uvo I would agree that in the end you just need to pump nen and so you don't need complicated techniques but this is not the case. Anyway on the other hand biscuit hatsu is a combo of a lot of nen types so that at least shows she has great control over many nen types, that is good but to this day she still lacks to show an hatsu for combat and that matters.
7. 40 Years of Combat Experience means something lol. Knuckle and Morel explicitly state how important combat experience is. Morel was able to dance around ants with far more aura and potential than he had with sheer wits and his combat experience. Combat experience is what allows people like Morel, Zeno etc to come up with their plans on the fly and analyze Hatsu abilities on a single glance. So, no I will keep mentioning 40 Years of nen and combat experience because by all measures and accounts which the author has reiterated over and over again does mean something.
Like said in the previous reply experience on the field is important but so is natural talent and she falls short when compared to monster like Gon/Killua/Hisoka/Ging etc.
8. How do you know she has reached her potential? Netero reached the peak of his original potential at 46 and his potential is likely nowhere near that of Gon and Killua. And the burden of proof is on you to prove that Hisoka and Chrollo have this immense potential you claim. From all we know, Hisoka and Chrollo are simply very witty and intelligent characters respectively that have composure to make use of their nen ability. No one has ever remarked on their potential in any way or shape or form.
After 40 years of so intense training she should lol anyway there is no indication that she (or any other charcaters bar Gon, Killua and probably a few others) get stronger after each arc (and this is true most likely even for Hisoka despite him being younger and with most likely more potential than Biscuit), they are side character who don't go through any kind of training in panel and as well there is no mentioning that they have undergone some special training or anything that made them stornger since the last time we saw them (unlike Gon and Killua who costantly undergo training on panel, invent, develop and even test new skills etc.).
Here comes the proof for Hisoka potential you wanted, it is from his origin story, it is a very good read and imo you will enjoy it:
To be honest it is shown in that story that Hisoka potential is even greater (far greater lol) than the likes of Killua and Gon but for the sake of the discussion (and generally) it is better to say they are in the same categroy. Anyway there is plenty of references to what you were asking (proofs of Hisoka's great potential) and towards the end the comparison Hisoka-Ging.
9. Morel with all his experience is not just a "support" character. He has fought against creatures far stronger and dangerous than anyone Hisoka or Chrollo has fought and came out on top through his sheer experience and wits. And Morel backed down because he saw that taking a clean hit from a monstrous enhancer like Gon clean would spell death for him. How is that supposed to be something to be held against him? Hisoka dies if he takes that punch too. Hisoka was getting his shit stomped in by a 40% enhancer like Chrollo the same Chrollo who backed down the moment Zeno showed him Gyo. And I think you're forgetting that Knuckle , Shoot and Morel survived the CA through a mix of their courage and experience. Morel beat Cheetu, Leol, Stalled Youpi and Stalled Pouf in the span of less than a day while he was depleted of aura due to the fact his smoke soliders were still active in the capital. He overcame his obstacles through experience. An the Chimera ants are exceptions. No Humans has the potential of the Chimera Ants hence why they were such a threat. And. Meruem only beat Netero because he gained the ability to critically think and plan after countless of Gungi battles with Komugi which btw is also part of experience. Netero would have eventually won if not for Komugi playing Gungi with Meruem.
He is not a support charcater (well he is really but this doesn't matter), he is a support type fighter and not a direct fighter type (like it said for Nobunaga/Uvo opposed to support types like that don't fight in the front lines). Sure, let's remark again the value of experience but despite that in the end they also were lucky in the chimera ant arc to survive but since this point can really be made for almost anything in a manga I will just add that theants at the end spared them (and again the ants had almost 0 experience, they were newborn, but had an incredible potential which was also fulfillled, maybe, from the moment they were born, they were born monsters in short). Sure Meruem for sure gained a lot form his matches with Komugi but he was also stomping world class master in many different games with basically only his intelligence and knowledge about the rules and that was his extreme talent, also in the end that helped but Netero and Meruem were worlds a part from the start of the fight. Netero most likely wouldn't have been able to win even if Meruem stood there without moving the whole fight, Netero would have died first of exaustion than Meruem from the damage taken. But let's not go there either please :p (this is too much time consuming)
10. And yes, Hisoka could have killed him the first time but the second time her explicitly notes how much stronger Kastro had gotten and it was a shame he was an idiot because if he focused on his natural category of enhancement that he would have won. And yes it's clear why Hisoka lost that fight and Hisoka's ability is very simple and useful and not once did I say that "Bisky has a better Hatsu". Bisky through evidence from all the nen users we have seen in the series who operate in the field almost guaranteed has a combat ability but even without it, she doesn't' necessarily need one with her proficiency and mastery for enhancement. And the simplicity of Hisoka's ability makes it hard to counter but that doesn't mean it's impossible unless you think someone strong enough can't just over power it with sheer strength and there are limits to his ability. By Togashi's words, it can stretch a max of 10 meters and thats with the use of emission. Bisky was able to deduce the mechanism of a far more complex Hatsu on the spot (Prince Maryams Nen Beasts' Spatial ability) yet, she can't do anything against Bungee Gum or she can't figure out that it likely has a limit to how far it can stretch before it loses its tensile strength.
Hisoka hoped for him to have become stronger but on the same time he joked for the whole fight offering limbs left and right and then doing magician tricks lol you see that when he takes a fight seriously (vs Chrollo) he acts in a total different way. If he tried what he did vs Kastro then Chrollo would have destroyed him in moments. He did that with Kastro only because he knew he was well above Kastro's level. Didn't we already go through this? Also I don't recall saying you said Bisky has a better hatsu anyway for sure that is something important she still lacks (to show at least) in a fight. If anything we can blame this on Togashi for not making her have a really serious fight until now on panel and so we don't know if she has one or not and if she has it what it is. Let's stop at this. She can most likely gauge Hisoka ability like many other have done but the point is the incredible number of things Hisoka can use bungee gun for, the only limit is his fantasy in the end (or better Togashi's and what he wants to do with the fight) and there is also fake texture to consider and the power up (most likely) he get after his fight with Chrollo.
To Conclude, Bisky is the superior overall combat because of her combat experience, her martial prowess due to being a master in the same martial art founded by Isaac Netero. She is physically superior as made evident by her feats in Greed Island and from the virtue of her personality which is obsessive with training. She has a greater mastery of nen in all categories available to Transmuters to such an extent that she is able to formulate an inefficiently nen ability and use it efficiently.
Enhancement - She has enough mastery and proficiency to Train natural enhancers in enhancement. Her use of Ko, Ryu, Gyo is extremely efficient and she has demonstrated feats of enhancement and knowledge we have no seen from Hisoka (not saying Hisoka doesn't have it) but the fact that a specialist like Chrollo is able to consistently hurt Hisoka with ehanced strikes despite being only 40% efficient in it means that Hisoka's mastery of the enhancement category is not up to par.
Transmuter - This cannot be said with certainty but, Transmuter is alos Bisky's natural category and with many more decades to master and train her transmutation, she is likely a more masterful transmuter which is somewhat evident if we see how well she can shape her aura. Also, as a virtue of how training other categories strengthens ones natural category, Bisky's training of her other categories to extremely proficiency means that she her Transmuter is likely great than Hisoka's who lacks great enhancement and Emission (he can only stretch 10m with Bungee Gum).
Conjurer : This is not a certainty but she trains all her categories but since she has no Hatsu with conjuration we can give mastery to Hisoka due to texture suprise.
Manipulation: She wins in this she is able to freely control Cookie Chan despite Manipulation being the worst category for transmuters. Hisoka has shown no mastery of this category in any shape or form.
Emission: She came up with the complete training regiment for Emission for Gon and Killua. Cookie Chan is also almost certainly emitted meaning she has a very strong grasp of Emission while Hisoka has shown no use of basic Emission besides just being able to stretch Bungee Gum 10 meters.
Also, no hostility intended from me. I don't like arguing but when I'm passionate about something like H x H, I will argue it in a very serious way. :cheers:
The important thing is that you believe it. Also, again, saying she is physically above Hisoka even in her weak form is stretching this a little too much. Also you can't use Chrollo like he is just one among many, if anything Hisoka had a good feat at sensing him at the last moment despite using Zetsu during their fight (at least one time). And Chrollo's zetsu got praised by Silva for killing an assassin after him without leaving the faintest trace of bloodlust. Don't just go look for the worst feat of Hisoka fighting another monster like Chrollo, on the other hand there ar eplenty of very good feats for both in that fight. Then Biscuit has good feats for nen use for making her hatsu and also for showing her trainings to Gona nd Killua but she has not shown anything truly monstrous, that would be Ging showing his control of nen to the pals of Beyond. Also Hisoka had his fight vs a prepared Chrollo when we know an unprepared Chrollo was able to keep up with both Zeno and Silva (despite collapsing right after the fight), these are ther truly good feats that Biscuit lacks at this point. She could have 40 years of training, destroy fodder like Binolt or Bara but we should have at least a comparison with guys of the caliber of Illumi/Hisoka/Chrollo to say where Biscuit truly is powerwise. And also the fact that she still lacks an hatsu (fault of Togashi) is a point against her.
Also (I will stop replying since this is an interesting debate but it takes too much time, also we are going in circles in a lot of arguments) imo the best point you could have used is that she got an higher rating than Hisoka in databooks (and this to show, if there any doubts, that I'm not fanbyoing Hisoka but I'm looking for the true answer to the question), she got a total of 26 vs Hisoka 24.
- According to the "Hunter × Hunter Manual" section found in the Yu ☆ Yu ☆ Hakusho official character book (Shueisha Jump remix),* Biscuit's stats are:
Story Arcs Mind Skill Body Nen Ingenuity Intelligence Greed Island arc 5/5 4/5 5/5 4/5 4/5 4/5
Yet this also is prone to misinterpretaion at least if taken as a way to judge powerlevels since this get remanaged each arc (when it is done at all), and if rarely changes and not by much, and also Gon and Killua get both a 23 and Chrollo as well a 25 (so he too below Biscuit at least according to these databooks and making Gon and Killua already be able to contend with the likes of Hisoka and maybe even Chrollo it is too much) with only the royal guards and Netero above Biscuit (stinks a bit). Also they are referred to different arcs (Chrollo's one is valid for Yorkshin, Biscuit for Gredd island). Hisoka falls short in the "mind" department (3/5) but honestly he displayed a very good feat vs Chrollo mind wise (who would have been able to make the right choices in real time? Very few characters in the whole verse for sure). As a final point the databooks end with Greed sialnd (we have got nothing from CA and after it) and Hisoka at the end of his fight with Chrollo (after coming back to life) got a power up (but we need to see Hisoka again and see if he has something new, so I will of course let this rest).
Also no problem with hostility, I'm sorry if in certain points it sounds like I was mocking or the likes of it too.