Versus Battle Hou Ken Versus Guts

[Elder Lee Hung]

Let's do this my guys.

Hou Ken, "The Martial God"

VERSUS

Guts, "The Black Swordsman"

I would flip shit to see these two actually fight lol. These are probably the two most insane "Human" IE Peak Human/Not-Superhuman characters that I myself have ever read.

So I figured we could discuss a fight between these two behemoths


I decided to do a very brief hype post for each of them showing some of their more minor feats lol.

Hou Ken

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Hou Ken is actually completely insane as a warrior and does not get the respect he deserves within the Kingdom Community. Within the Canon, Hou Ken is probably considered to be the strongest warrior in the history of the Manga. Hou Ken's very first shown feat in Kingdom, years before the current story-line where Hou Ken continuously gets stronger, involves him utterly annihilating Great General Kyou's defensive battalions single-handedly:

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Shou Hei Kun states that Hou Ken's strength, to face down an entire army by himself in this manner, is actually not possible (despite it actually happening):

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Hou Ken also systematically crushed Quanrong cavalry, and the Quanrong are probably the strongest soldiers in all of Kingdom (or at least on par with them)

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These are some of Hou Ken's lesser discussed feats. Hou Ken fought on par with Great General Ou Ki, dominated Great General Gekishin easily, thrashed Duke Hyou pretty hard, and overall is just an extremely strong and overpowered warrior within Kingdom.

Guts

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Guts is absolutely insane. Guts' Sword, the Dragon Slayer, is a Sword that is over 6 feet long and weighs over 400 pounds and he wields it instinctively and with ease. Guts has so many insane and badass feats of strength to hye him from, but I'm going to choose one of my favorite hype moments from him that happens in the very first arc of Berserk. So this guy Zondark, after he becomes a Demon,

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Proceeds to start Cracking a Battle-Axe like a whip:

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This is basically what Zondark is doing to Guts:

And this is Guts' reaction:

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Not only does Guts deflect every single Battle-Axe-Whip-Crack, but then:

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Puck's commentary is better hype than I could ever give:

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And Guts gets stronger more experienced over time.

Guts and Hou Ken both obviously have crazier feats and hype to them, but I just wanted to do a small appreciation post for them both lol.

Rules: Black Swordsman Guts, as he appears in the Conviction Arc, fights Shukai Plains Hou Ken.

Who wins and why?

@RayanOO @Dragomir @Bullet @Dark Admiral @whoever else might care lol.

 

[RayanOO]

Conviction arc Guts seems faster, stronger, and has better gears (canon arm and bombs and crossbow)

 

[Dragomir]

Conviction arc Guts at that point would outclass Houken. Going with physical stats, I believe they're both right about the same, with Guts perhaps edging out in speed and durability. However, once we start adding in battle prowess and experience, Guts wins handily. Not only is his battle IQ astronomically high, but Guts' experience with fighting apostles also gives him a boost here. He's used to taking down huge foes with high levels of durability, so when he's facing someone on a smaller scale like Houken, the fight should be easier.

And then there's Guts' knife throwing and canon which he can pull up at any time for a surprise attack that Houken can't dodge. He mid diffs.

 

[Owl Ki]

@Admiral Lee Hung can any version of Houken beat even beginning of series Guts? Lol.

Beginning of series Guts casually cleaves apart multiple soldiers in full plate armour simultaneously in a single swing with a goddamn sword.

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There is also the time he casually bisected a shield followed by a giant bloke (Gerico) in full plate armour followed by the solid stone pillar behind said aforementioned bloke.

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I am not exactly sure how Houken’s glaive is going to stand up against solid stone shattering strikes. Lol.

This is without even bringing up any of Guts’ demon slaying feats.

By comparison, these are the best pure strength feats Houken has that I can recall.

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For a reaction feat, Guts has his feat against Zoldack.

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The fastest thing Houken has gone up against was Kyoukai while she was utilising her Improved Shiyuu Priestess Dance. A fresh Houken was pretty hard pressed by her (she was injured to boot) and was only able to beat by grabbing her ankle and cutting off her speed entirely rather than reacting to her speed enhanced strikes, which he could not do.

Guts also just has a more varied arsenal. Guts uses armour, ranged attacks (e.g. throwing knives, semiautomatic crossbow and a portable arm cannon) and will happily utilise trickery and deception to win against an opponent.

Houken does not do any of that. Houken is way too straightforward in his methods.

So yeah, I do not see how Houken can beat Guts. Guts wins.

 

[Bullet]

Guts i think has better physical power, reaction speed, can endure more also is more versatile ( knives, arrows, cannon ) but i think Houken has a lot more skill with his main weapon so it might not be that easy for Guts but he will win for sure.

 

[Kaido D. Stronger]

Guts wins.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

While I do think Guts would win this, I think Houken is being greatly underestimated by the thread. People don’t give Kingdom characters enough credit for how physically powerful they are.

For example, Ren Pa was able to smash through a speeding boulder that was actually about twice as tall as a normal human man

And Shukai Houken should be stronger than Renpa.

Houken sent Ouki and his horse flying off of the ground:

Ouki himself probably, in armor, weighed somewhere around 300 pounds.

Based on a google search I just did, adult horses can weigh anywhere between 800-2,200 pounds. Now, Ouki’s horse is named “Ou”, and is a large and powerful steed in his own right. Ouki calls him a “true general’s steed.”

But let us downplay Ou and say that the horse probably only weighed 1,000 pounds.

This means Bayou Houken sent roughly 1,300 pounds flying off of the ground. Shukai Houken is stronger than Bayou Houken.

Now, Conviction Guts’ best “pure strength” feat is his feat against Mozgus here:

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Mozgus’ canonical weight is 660 pounds, while the Dragon Slayer itself weighs a bit over 400 pounds, meaning Conviction Guts’ all-time best “pure force” feat is a little over 1,000 pounds.

Conviction Guts’ best “pure strength” feat still pales in comparison to Bayou Houken, who like I said earlier is weaker than Shukai Houken who is Guts’ actual opponent here.

So, and some in the thread might find this controversial, but Guts is arguably a weaker combatant than Houken is, just in terms of how hard each swings their weapons.

Now, I think it’s a bit weird to compare these feats as Guts threw Mozgus from a deadweight position and while wounded while Houken struck Ouki with momentum, and like how do you compare feats like that you know? So overall I think Guts and Houken would be comparable as warriors, I mainly did this post to show how underrated Houken is lol.

In terms of skill and experience, I’d say they’re comparable, both having been raised as warriors from a young age and pretty much spending all of their free time training and such.

The main reasons I think Guts wins this, are as follows:

1. Even if Houken is a stronger warrior than Guts, Guts has a ton of experience fighting against stronger, more overpowered beings than himself, and kills them anyway.

2. Guts would also be the exact type of opponent that Houken would struggle against: someone with enormous willpower who would not give up the fight until he was absolutely dead.

I think overall as fighters Guts and Houken are probably comparable in every aspect, but it’s the two factors above that allow Guts to edge out a win.

And then you add in Guts’ knives, caltrops, cannon, etc along with the fact that Guts fights dirty, and yeah. Houken would lose this one lol.

 

[RayanOO]

This means Bayou Houken sent roughly 1,300 pounds flying off of the ground. Shukai Houken is stronger than Bayou Houken.

Mozgus’ canonical weight is 660 pounds, while the Dragon Slayer itself weighs a bit over 400 pounds, meaning Conviction Guts’ all-time best “pure force” feat is a little over 1,000 pounds.

Conviction Guts’ best “pure strength” feat still pales in comparison to Bayou Houken, who like I said earlier is weaker than Shukai Houken who is Guts’ actual opponent here.

The two feats cannot be really compared.

Houken pushed Ouki and his horse while Guts carried above his head Mozgus.

It's a lot more difficult to carry a thing than to push it.

Throwing someone off balance is easier.

Shukai Houken is stronger than Bayou Houken.

Riboku seemed to say that Houken didn't really become stronger during all those years

(PS : I edited my post and answered you about Shoto vs Bakugo lol)

 

[FaradaySloth]

I have only read Berserk Golden Age Arc (yes I am missing out on a GOAT story but I’m extremely lazy ” so I can’t say for sure but Guts cleaving through armor and a stone pillar is something Houken would easily replicate. Characters like Renpa destroying boulders and Bananji casually cracking the ground with a punch (while pulverizing bear superhuman skulls) should be enough for scaling alone to prove that.

 

[Owl Ki]

While I do think Guts would win this, I think Houken is being greatly underestimated by the thread. People don’t give Kingdom characters enough credit for how physically powerful they are.

For example, Ren Pa was able to smash through a speeding boulder that was actually about twice as tall as a normal human man

And Shukai Houken should be stronger than Renpa.

So I have been thinking about this feat and have thought of a question.

How much of this feat is Renpa’s own strength and how much of it is impact force?

In that scene, Renpa is on horseback. That horse will be achieving a galloping gait as Renpa sought to climb to the top of the hill as quickly as possible.

The average speed of the gallop gait as according to Wikipedia is 25-30 mph/40-48 kph. Thus Renpa himself will be travelling at the same speed.

That boulder is also rolling at some speed. Admittedly I do not know how to go about calculating the speed of that boulder, so let us give it a hypothetically low speed for arguments sake and say it is moving at 10 mph/16 kph.

So when Renpa’s blade collides with that boulder, the force between the two is going to combine and result in an impact force of 35-40 mph/56-64 kph. This will be on top of however much force Renpa himself hits with.

So (if my maths is right) is this truly a pure strength feat for Renpa (and other Kingdom top tiers)?

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Riboku seemed to say that Houken didn't really become stronger during all those years

Riboku’s interpretation of Houken’s strength is up for interpretation as much as anyone else’s lol.

Ouki claimed Duke Hyou would “give me a run for my money”, and Coalition Houken thrashed Duke Hyou hard. Even when Duke Hyou made him waver, their fight did not last very long.

I would say Coalition Houken is stronger than Bayou Houken by virtue of experience if nothing else. Having slugged it out with Ouki and Duke Hyou and all.

(PS : I edited my post and answered you about Shoto vs Bakugo lol)

You might need to link me lmfao, I forgot what thread we were on.

So (if my maths is right) is this truly a pure strength feat for Renpa (and other Kingdom top tiers)?

I’m not a physicist so I can accept your math lol. The impact force was not just Renpa’s Glaive Swing, but also his charging horse and the fact that the Boulder itself was rolling. So it’s not purely Renpa’s strength but other factors at play as well lol.

I think the horse-lifting feats in Kingdom though, are easily above any brute strength feats that Conviction Guts has shown. Look at this feat from Lord Ouki:

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Ouki hit Houken so hard that literally Houken pulled his own horse off of the ground with him.

So sure, Ouki’s steed was charging, but so was Houken’s, so those cancel each other out.

Houken was also swinging his Glaive at Ouki and Ouki just swung clean through that swing itself.

I think given these factors, it’s not too much to assume that Ouki, just standing stationary, could send Houken and his horse flying off of the ground with a good swing-and there are Kingdom characters who I think certainly have equivalent of greater brute strength to Ouki, like Houken, Kanmei, Moubu, Renpa, etc..

Kingdom Warriors just generally have more insane brute strength feats than Guts...look at Man’U here:

This is literally a one-armed Glaive Swing by Man’U which sends multiple men and horse heads flying into the air. I think it was even commented on in the canon that he did this with only one arm. Lol

Guts’ brute strength feats seem more tame to me by comparison. Like yeah he can swing that 400 pound sword around with one arm if he wants to (I recall Guts one time, with one arm, just lifted Dragon Slayer and pointed it at someone like it was no big deal lol), but Guts just never hits anybody this hard.

Now granted, it’s possible Hara doesn’t think about this stuff that hard but I think that’s bullshit lol. It’s also possible that we are just looking at the artistic difference in writers/artists but we can only go with the feats we see lol.

I said in my last post that Ou/Houken’s horse only weigh 1,000 pounds but really that’s hard downplay, they probably weigh closer to 1500 or above. It’s not unfeasible that characters like Ouki can literally lift a ton off of the ground if you give him a good swing even without his horse lol.

Another thing we have to think about is the huge weight difference between Dragon Slayer and Houken’s Glaive. Dragon Slayer weighs freaking 400 pounds and I doubt Ouki/Houken’s Glaive weigh any more than 100 pounds if even that. Dragon Slayer is just such an outrageous sword which, if you guys will permit me a minor Berserk spoiler,

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Literally Dragon Slayer was deemed unweildable by its maker. He finished forging it and was like “yeah, this sword is retarded” and then it took him and a gang of his buddies just to drag it into his basement lol.

So Dragon Slayer is a couple of tiers away from Houken’s Glaive lol. Take that for what you will.

So don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Houken can overpower Guts, I think they go blow for blow with each other for the most part, but the Houken underestimation here was very real lol.

Also side note: Guts’ “whip battle axe” feat was insane, but I think the raw skill required for Houken to send a squad of javelin thrower’s javelins right back at them is comparably ridiculous lol.

 

[RayanOO]

Riboku’s interpretation of Houken’s strength is up for interpretation as much as anyone else’s lol.

Riboku was our sole soucr eof information when he told Houken story. It was like the narrator telling Houken story by Riboku's mouth. And I can guess that Riboku has the eye to gauge the strength of people, and he knew Houken for the longest time. I have no reasons to doubt Riboku words especailly when it matched Houken purpose in the story.

Houken was always a powerhouse and peaked years earlier, all of his "training" didn't have any purpose because he missed the most important thing : knowing other humans, making bonds, weight etc.

I would say Coalition Houken is stronger than Bayou Houken by virtue of experience if nothing else. Having slugged it out with Ouki and Duke Hyou and all.

It was quite clear that Houken didn't learn anything from those fights. You can even say he was weaker because those fights shook him big time because he didn't understand those defeats/victories. Houken impressed me a lot more against Ouki than against Shin.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Riboku was our sole soucr eof information when he told Houken story. It was like the narrator telling Houken story by Riboku's mouth.

I don’t subscribe to this line of logic and I don’t think Hara does either. Any story being told by a character is subject to that own characters’ interpretation. Now I don’t doubt Riboku’s ability to interpret things, but I’m just saying Riboku’s own perspective is just that: a perspective.

It was quite clear that Houken didn't learn anything from those fights.

This is objectively untrue. This symbolism behind Houken’s fight with Gekishin:

With Houken using the same technique that Ouki used on him after Houken stabbed him, is that Houken did learn something from his fight with Ouki. He learned more about himself and his own strength, and it’s clear that he believed (before he fought Duke Hyou and Shin) that he had surpassed Ouki (even if he was wrong).

You can’t look at this scene and tell me Houken didn’t grow after he fought Ouki.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Houken is a beast no doubt but Guts has far more experiences of the battle which could have ended on him losing his life. Houken has mostly fought against the fodder/ weaker opponents with only few exceptions of Ouki and Duke (as far as I know of). Guts on the other hands has to fight the other worldy beings on an hourly basis for his survival. He probably sleeps with his one eye open..lol
GUTS for the win..!!

EDIT: We should do these more often.

a very brief hype post for each of them showing some of their more minor feats lol.

I was getting full Death Battle vibes from this thread. He is Whis and I'm Boomstick...

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

I used to rate Houken pretty highly. But after he lost to Shin, in a fair and square battle, I feel I overestimated him. His hype means nothing now.

Guts is not losing to a character like this. Even if his feats were inferior, which its not, Guts cut Houken with sheer willpower alone.