Powers & Abilities How does Sanji surpass Scopper Gaban if he never gets ACoC?

[Max]

To be specific I don’t think any weaker characters should have it not just Sanji. I believe the more people that have it the less valuable the skill is. I also don’t want Sanji to get it because Zoro has it. I’d prefer for them to maintain separate skillsets.

Did you feel like you said something profound? Did I tell a lie in my post?

Isn't that already the case with CoO/CoA? Zoro is likely going the ACoA route while Sanji is going the ACoO route. ACoC is just the thing needed to compete with top tiers, but them having their own haki specialization with CoA/CoO, along with their unique tools (exoskeleton/blue flames/Enma/black blades), already separates them in terms of combat abilities.

I don’t really see what else he could get

Ifrit Jambe is him combining his genetic abilities with haki

In order to push his flames to the next level he would need better haki

It goes hand in hand

I don't think he can get hotter flames through haki. The reason he can use blue flames is because the exoskeleton along with his CoA protect his legs from the heat of IJ, thus allowing him to use that power. But haki itself doesn't make his flames hotter. So if he gets black flames, it'll just be a visual representation of a greater kicking power thanks to CoC, but the flames themselves won't be hotter than IJ flames.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

I pretty much agree with you. the thing I still don't understand is the "Sanji is on a science route" statement that a lot of people like to brag about. Indeed, a lot of these people, are pretty much Sanji haters and they like to badmouth Sanji's haki like it is simply "not existing", when even in the last power up the same Sanji mentioned his improvements on armament haki.

I just don't like this idea that is spreading about Sanji being totally dependant on "science power ups" when the over 3/4 of the manga he was just a normal human being (not that now he is pretty much different, when the eyebrow is normal Sanji should be considered as a normal human without exoskeleton from what I've seen).

That said Sanji has all the qualities of getting Conqueror's Haki. If he gets it it shouldn't feel strange because he already showed how great his ambition and resolve are.

With regards to the science route, I think there are two sides of it. There are Sanji fans who legit like it or at the very least are intrigued by this unique route that Oda is going on with Sanji like me for instance then there's the Sanji haters like you say that have used Sanji's haki particularly his armament as a stick to beat him with since the TS to convince themselves that he's been left behind by the rest of the M3 and was not gonna fight a commander for instance on Wano which ended up as a disaster prediction lol so the whole "science route/daddy genes" narrative is cope to save face lol. In reality like you've said Sanji's armament is pretty decent and the only person he's really struggled with post-ts in that category is Vergo who was an armament monster that schooled, the likes of Smoker and Law in the very same arc with Doffy hyping up hyping up Vergo's haki even in the face of Law's hax but I digress.

With regards to the Sanji fans that don't like the science route entirely, I get it and I can relate with folks wanting Sanji to be just a martial artist but personally I'm liking his current development route (glad he destroyed the raid suit tho lol. That shit was giving me nightmares ).

Agree with ur take on the exoskeleton and think that was the sole reason why Oda gave him the ability to switch btw human and super human just so he didn't lose his entirety to Judge's modifications. Also agree with ur take on his qualifications for conquerors ^^. Personally I'm honesly not fussed about it but I wouldn't mind him having it.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I pretty much agree with you. the thing I still don't understand is the "Sanji is on a science route" statement that a lot of people like to brag about. Indeed, a lot of these people, are pretty much Sanji haters and they like to badmouth Sanji's haki like it is simply "not existing", when even in the last power up the same Sanji mentioned his improvements on armament haki.

I just don't like this idea that is spreading about Sanji being totally dependant on "science power ups" when the over 3/4 of the manga he was just a normal human being (not that now he is pretty much different, when the eyebrow is normal Sanji should be considered as a normal human without exoskeleton from what I've seen).

That said Sanji has all the qualities of getting Conqueror's Haki. If he gets it it shouldn't feel strange because he already showed how great his ambition and resolve are.

The same people that use the "warrior of science" to shit on sanji will recoil and backpedal when their fav only mean of progression was through getting stronger swords and nothing else

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Idk
It'd be good to hand another L to all those haters that said Sanji isn't fit to be one. Doesn't have aim/ambitions when WB just wanted to be strong enough to protect his family. Ace wanted WB to be PK. Sanji unfathomable dream of finding All Blue like Luffy's Onepiece wasn't enough to them.

I say Oda bring it in​

 

[Blazing Lion]

I would prefer if Sanji develops something unique. The M3 all got their unique powerups in EL. Post TS it seemed that they all trained the basics of haki and improving their specifc techniques/amping them. Luffy trained haki and df, Zoro learned haki/swordsmanship, Sanji learned haki and improved his legs/learned geppo.
Then in Wano Luffy learned more haki, Zoro learned more haki while Sanji got his RS.
Their mid fight power ups were DF and ACoC for Luffy, ACoC and new sword style for Zoro and Exo with Haki for Sanji.
Following the same trajectory a haki powerup is not unthinkable for Sanji, however, I find it weird for Oda to do this.
The first powerups were unique for each and I expect the last to be unique too. The second powerup which was required by all was given at the same time (they all learned haki in TS). Sanji learning ACoC after two arcs doesn't line up. Basically it would say that Sanji took two arcs to catch up to Luffy and Zoro and those two are going to get their own too (BB and DF or haki related). Going with M3 dynamic and portayal, Oda is not going to so blatantly show Sanji being weaker than Luffy and Zoro that he is two arcs behind them. And this is the main reason why I don't think Sanji will get ACoC as a powerup. When haki was a necessity they all got it at the same time. If ACoC is the necessity then Sanji should have also gotten it in Wano like Luffy and Zoro.

 

[gz89]

Oda doesn't care he will just make him strong.

Coby & Helmeppo were fodders and they became "strong" in a few months.

Sanji didn't fight anyone and people thought he was vet level and in one arc he became stronger than every YC (probably).

 

[Garps tekkai]

He doesn't need it that much tbh. Becoming a top tier does not mean he has to end up as one of the strongest ever, hence "average" top tier AP, besides the quirks that really make him special such as super speed, a great martial arts style and A+ mobility, will be enough.

AdvCoC also would not hit as much on him. He would primarily enhance his physical kicks, which as a set seems lackluster in terms of damage potential and AP.
I think he might do better with ID CoA, thus gaining an additional interal damaging damage source, something that his fire already taps into aswell, creating a powerful ability stack.

Exo strength + IJ + ID CoA would prolly be very near the power of CoC infused ID CoA.

We also need to keep in mind that advCoC requires two PUs: grasping the concept of haki flow (Ryou) and CoC awakening itself.
It's difficult to write all that into the story at this point in time.
I think a haki bloom, where he unlocks ID CoA similar to Sai (I guess) and Luffy makes much more sense narratively.

 

[Raiden7]

He doesn't need it that much tbh. Becoming a top tier does not mean he has to end up as one of the strongest ever, hence "average" top tier AP, besides the quirks that really make him special such as super speed, a great martial arts style and A+ mobility, will be enough.

AdvCoC also would not hit as much on him. He would primarily enhance his physical kicks, which as a set seems lackluster in terms of damage potential and AP.
I think he might do better with ID CoA, thus gaining an additional interal damaging damage source, something that his fire already taps into aswell, creating a powerful ability stack.

Exo strength + IJ + ID CoA would prolly be very near the power of CoC infused ID CoA.

I still think that for Sanji unlocking CoC still revolve on germa modifications and how he will overcome them.

Oda said to continue to watch over him in the future regarding his eyebrow/germa modification. Maybe it means nothing, maybe it means that there is still something missing. I don't think Oda is done with the aspect of losing emotions or the "heart of ice" concept from Germa.

We also need to keep in mind that advCoC requires two PUs: grasping the concept of haki flow (Ryou) and CoC awakening itself.
It's difficult to write all that into the story at this point in time.
I think a haki bloom, where he unlocks ID CoA similar to Sai (I guess) and Luffy makes much more sense narratively.

I still don't think that what Sanji said to Zoro is meaningless. That Sanji losing control was just something thrown out there just for nothing. Oda likes to build up future events spreading little hints. Sanji could unlock CoC in a way totally different from Luffy and Zoro and there will still be some past build up.

And let's not forget about "mother flame". While I'm not totally sure it is something related to Sanji and his ability to produce fire (Judge never said something about the flames, corrobating the theory that it's not something from Germa modifications) and probably it is more related to Gear fifth Luffy. Even though, fire was always something related to Sanji so, there is still a little bit of doubt.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

He just will. Odds are he’ll awaken CoC against the BBP and since he’s used to using his emotions as fuel, hell probably quickly grasp the idea of using CoC haki as fuel for the fire as well.

 

[DonWick]

What the flip does ‘weaker characters’ even mean lol. You simply don’t want characters you don’t rate to have it 💀. Sanji having ACoC is not gonna make it less valuable just like Luffy & then Zoro in that order didn’t devalue it coz Yamato or Kaido have it.

It’s fine to like certain characters more than others and want characters you like to be special but just concede that you’re biased and stop trying to frame it as having some kinda logical reasoning behind it. ‘weaker characters’

Also yes I did I’m calling you out for capping 😂. Stop acting like you care about Sanji or his development, you just don’t want him to have it coz u want characters you like to remain special in your mind
Which again is fine btw. Just be honest about it

You realize I’ve made threads about this same thing. I want Sanji to get stronger that’s the point. Luffy and Zoro need it. Luffy will be top 1 Zoro has to fight Mihawk. Also they are not weak. They’ve fought Yonko.

Post automatically merged: May 24, 2025

I’m basically saying more science shit

 

[Max]

I would prefer if Sanji develops something unique. The M3 all got their unique powerups in EL. Post TS it seemed that they all trained the basics of haki and improving their specifc techniques/amping them. Luffy trained haki and df, Zoro learned haki/swordsmanship, Sanji learned haki and improved his legs/learned geppo.
Then in Wano Luffy learned more haki, Zoro learned more haki while Sanji got his RS.
Their mid fight power ups were DF and ACoC for Luffy, ACoC and new sword style for Zoro and Exo with Haki for Sanji.
Following the same trajectory a haki powerup is not unthinkable for Sanji, however, I find it weird for Oda to do this.
The first powerups were unique for each and I expect the last to be unique too. The second powerup which was required by all was given at the same time (they all learned haki in TS). Sanji learning ACoC after two arcs doesn't line up. Basically it would say that Sanji took two arcs to catch up to Luffy and Zoro and those two are going to get their own too (BB and DF or haki related). Going with M3 dynamic and portayal, Oda is not going to so blatantly show Sanji being weaker than Luffy and Zoro that he is two arcs behind them. And this is the main reason why I don't think Sanji will get ACoC as a powerup. When haki was a necessity they all got it at the same time. If ACoC is the necessity then Sanji should have also gotten it in Wano like Luffy and Zoro.

Based on that logic, it took Zoro 9 arcs to catch up with Luffy because that's how long it took for him to get CoC after Luffy got it. What about FS, is Sanji not getting it because Luffy got it much earlier in the story? I just don't think that's how it works.

Sanji getting ACoC now would only mean he didn't need it earlier because his exoskeleton and basic haki were enough. Zoro entirely relies on haki, so him needing to get an advanced form in Wano made sense. Luffy fought an Emperor of the sea and ACoC alone wasn't even enough. Apples and oranges.

He doesn't need it that much tbh. Becoming a top tier does not mean he has to end up as one of the strongest ever, hence "average" top tier AP, besides the quirks that really make him special such as super speed, a great martial arts style and A+ mobility, will be enough.

AdvCoC also would not hit as much on him. He would primarily enhance his physical kicks, which as a set seems lackluster in terms of damage potential and AP.
I think he might do better with ID CoA, thus gaining an additional interal damaging damage source, something that his fire already taps into aswell, creating a powerful ability stack.

Exo strength + IJ + ID CoA would prolly be very near the power of CoC infused ID CoA.

We also need to keep in mind that advCoC requires two PUs: grasping the concept of haki flow (Ryou) and CoC awakening itself.
It's difficult to write all that into the story at this point in time.
I think a haki bloom, where he unlocks ID CoA similar to Sai (I guess) and Luffy makes much more sense narratively.

Sounds like a made up rule. Zoro was able to use ACoC as soon as he unlocked CoC.

 

[DonWick]

Isn't that already the case with CoO/CoA? Zoro is likely going the ACoA route while Sanji is going the ACoO route. ACoC is just the thing needed to compete with top tiers, but them having their own haki specialization with CoA/CoO, along with their unique tools (exoskeleton/blue flames/Enma/black blades), already separates them in terms of combat abilities.


I don't think he can get hotter flames through haki. The reason he can use blue flames is because the exoskeleton along with his CoA protect his legs from the heat of IJ, thus allowing him to use that power. But haki itself doesn't make his flames hotter. So if he gets black flames, it'll just be a visual representation of a greater kicking power thanks to CoC, but the flames themselves won't be hotter than IJ flames.

I guess the problem is I can’t see Sanji competing with top tiers with his skill set. I don’t view him as a conqueror so getting advanced conquerors doesn’t make sense to me. I just feel like the power needs to remain rare.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

I guess the problem is I can’t see Sanji competing with top tiers with his skill set. I don’t view him as a conqueror so getting advanced conquerors doesn’t make sense to me. I just feel like the power needs to remain rare.

The Roger pirates had 5 conquerors.

The SHP will have 5 at least.

 

[DonWick]

The Roger pirates had 5 conquerors.

The SHP will have 5 at least.

That’s too much. Who was # 5 on the Roger pirates?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

That’s too much. Who was # 5 on the Roger pirates?

Buggy


Memes aside, the straw hats should surpass number of conquerors as the Roger and Rox Pirates who currently hold that title.

 

[Max]

I guess the problem is I can’t see Sanji competing with top tiers with his skill set. I don’t view him as a conqueror so getting advanced conquerors doesn’t make sense to me. I just feel like the power needs to remain rare.

At this stage of the story, it's not rare. In the OP world as a whole, it's extremely rare, but we're in the New World and the story is now focused on elite fighters, so ACoC is bound to be seen more often as we gradually approach endgame. It's pretty much like watching pros perform in sports/arts, you can see a lot of them regularly do what most of us can't. It doesn't mean what they can do is common.

 

[Blazing Lion]

Based on that logic, it took Zoro 9 arcs to catch up with Luffy because that's how long it took for him to get CoC after Luffy got it. What about FS, is Sanji not getting it because Luffy got it much earlier in the story? I just don't think that's how it works.

Sanji getting ACoC now would only mean he didn't need it earlier because his exoskeleton and basic haki were enough. Zoro entirely relies on haki, so him needing to get an advanced form in Wano made sense. Luffy fought an Emperor of the sea and ACoC alone wasn't even enough. Apples and oranges.


Sounds like a made up rule. Zoro was able to use ACoC as soon as he unlocked CoC.

Base CoC has no advantage in fighting, it was fodder control and yes Zoro got that fodder control 9 arcs later (not that he needed it). Sanji has already defeated a 1 bil YC hence why FS being a power level benchmark is not a thing, even more so when among the top tiers who are ranked on similar or higher level dont have or required FS.

ACoC is different thing altogether it is defined as a handful of the very strongest and only the very strongest have been shown to have it. FS was said as among the mightiest and we saw Kata use it but he is nowhere near the levels of ACoC users. And ACoC is based on wielding CoC/flowing CoC like CoA. CoC is not directly trained to grow stronger, it becomes stronger as the user gets stronger.

Sanji becoming a handful of the very strongest two arcs after Luffy and Zoro is Sanji downplay.

 

[vikas]

With a gun to odas head

 

[Rumble]

If it has nothing to do with Haku, then through the Power of Love.

I think it's almost a given now he'll unlock CoC and that it will affect the nature of his flames. It's well past time Sanji finishes the job of copying the Rokushi and develops ranged fire attack based on Rankyaku.

Imagine him slicing through the air and shooting massive blades fire from the air to destroy ships.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Donwick's hatred of sanji is clouding his vision and judgement