Not sure what you're talking about here. Gakuki & Gekishin joined essentially together, however Gekishin was of little relevance compared to Gakuki. Hara showed us Flashbacks of Geksihin, it simply involved him following around and trying to copy Gakuki's tactics. I'm sure he has some little battles here and there to try out those tactics during that campaign. But nothing major, as Hara would've shown that in his backstory lol. Gekishin "was at his side", his side doesn't mean he was Gakuki's no.2, that's just a false claim with 0 basis.
How on earth could we say he was not the #2? Surely that could not have been explained any more to us? We literally see the two of them riding off, heading to battle. This was when both were established (obviously one more than the other) - and was a fast-forward in time from when we saw Gekishin stalking the Gakuki army.
You have sequence of panels mixed
The narrator says Gekishin accompanied Gakuki when Gakuki dominated the east, not that he fought by his side. There's a big difference in simply accompanying somebody vs fighting alongside them. In that moment where they're next to each other, Gekishin is looking up at Gakuki as a huge wall that needs to be surpassed. The likelihood is that was a panel for when Gakuki had joined Yan or something of that. AFTER that panel is when Hara proceeds to show us how Gekishin attempted to overcome Gakuki, which was by stalking him around the battlefield. So going by the panels and the narration sequence, the following happens after the panel. Since Gekishin already was a general when he was following around Gakuki.
Accompanied and fought by their side are two of the same, here. Gekishin literally would not be able to gain credit of his own if he did not pick up his end of the bargain. He was not there hiding. Look at how Chu actually dismissed Tou because he was just a side piece to Ouki.
It is quite illogical to believe the entire time Gekishin did nothing but watch Gakuki. He literally did both. You can see him heading off into war in one panel (occasion), and you can see him spying on Gakuki in another panel (occasion). They are literally two different scenarios.
So as far as we know him "Accompanying Gakuki's side" = him witnessing and recording Gakuki lol. There's nothing suggesting anything otherwise to it. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had some decent minor battles to try out those strategies he attempted to copy from Gakuki.
As I said above, those are clearly two seperate occasions. But more to the point, I don't think he'd have gotten anywhere near the prestige that he had, if he just sat and watched. Did Tou have prestige throughout China for hiding under Ouki?
But by no means was he the Moubu to Ouki or the Kanmei to Kouen.
I believe so, as we saw the two riding off to battle together, being saluted by the people. Similar to how we saw Qin getting sent off, or the Rigan guys. Gekishin wasn't spying, on that scene. He had a clear, role to play. in whatever war they were heading off to.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt seems a bit silly. This is a man who impressed Riboku and saw through his scheme? Again, you have to dismiss
SO much to think Gekishin was some mediocre guy who got lucky and researched half-decently well.
It's not, it's a historical fact he wasn't of much renown or a big deal at all before joining Yan.
Gakuki was a talented enough man to go straight into Yan and hold a high position in an army (vice minister, according to Magaxking). Nonetheless i don't think Hara has involved any of this in his thought process when creating the story anyway.
Why are you ignoring the entire context of me mentioning the experience rank?
The experience rank was used to highlight to you the amount of work Gakuki put in contrast to Gekishin, the guy who you're claiming was No.2 to Gakuki. Gakuki was able to get to SS rank from repelling the Qi back from Yan. Gekishin having 3+ decades after that war still only got to A rank, not S-rank, but A-rank. Tou who was Ouki's no.2 was A-rank while Ouki was S-rank (this is despite he was still climbing the ranks of the Ouki army while Ouki was a Qin 6 member). The worst gap between a dude and his No.2 is of 1 rank.
- Kyou is a bad comparison, Kyou was the youngest of the Qin 6 and had A-rank, and died young in her late 20s. Gekishin in contrast to her joined the battlefield before her & out lived her by 3+ decades, and still has A-rank. Rinshoujou was also pretty much like Kyou (in case you bring him up).
- You mention Tou, but this is also a bad comparison bruhz. Tou is decades younger than Geksihin and already has S-rank lol.
Gekishin at the age of 70+ could not get to S-rank experience. He's not in the same level as the Qin 6 or Zhao 3.
I'm not ignoring the context whatsoever. I acknowledged it? Gekishin not being an S is such a small detail from which to make a big claim? Particularly as it's not like Yan are the most active state.
Why should King Ouken care about Gekishin's abilities? He wasn't making a list of the top generals in China.
Why would Ouken care about the #1 General of the State that has been his biggest enemy for 50-60 years? What? It is his business, to know who Gekishin is. He was expressing how Gekishin is a clear, undisputed legend. Not someone who hid under Gakuki and got the scraps. Ouken is not a fool. It is totally illogical to believe Ouken does not know a great deal about Gekishin. You either think he knows what he's talking about, or he's ignorant. Because he damn sure does and would do his homework.
Yes, but then you ignored what Hara ended that thought on "Gekishin's warfare had similiarties with Gakuki", proving Gekisihin's statement that he had copied Gakuki's way of war to be a false statement. But again I already acknowledged he was able to mimick Gakuki to a certain extent, so that's not saying much. Akou was able to mimick Ousen's strategy to a certain extent.
It wasn't really to a certain extent. Only if you think absolutely everybody is wrong. Ouken was wrong, Ten was wrong, Saitaku was wrong, Gekishin was wrong, Ordo was wrong. All the hype is fake and these guys were fools.
I mean....Hara literally went out of his way to tell you why Gekishin is so impressive, which culminated in him figuring out Riboku's plan ("most impressive"), yet you're using the reverse logic and using it against him?
Discussion is not about whether he's great or not bro. Discussion is about his standing compared to Qin 6 & Gakuki. Where my claim is he's not on their tier, let alone level.
Oh well.....then perhaps we aren't even far apart. I don't think he's on their level. I think he's a notch below whatever the lower level of Z3/Q6 would be.
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That's because you're underestimating Mougou. Mougou was by no means an ordinary general, not sure how you could even call him that. Man has S-rank experience, something Gekishin doesn't have. Something that even Gokei didn't even have. That S-rank experience supplements for his stats a good amount. Mougou was put in charge of armies numbering 200k. The amount of respect Ousen & Kanki had for him simply isn't coming if he was some ordinary general who got carried.[/quote]
This is literally ignoring what we were told in the manga. Renpa told Kyouen, Shoubukun told Heki, Moubu told his two subs. Ouki told Renpa. Mougou is a very ordinary Great General. He is not strong.
Mougou rose to lead 200k because we had an era where Qin had a weaker army and he possessed Ousen and Kanki lol. Renpa explains it quite clearly to Kyouen. Mougou grew to a rank and fame beyond what his capabilities were.
The observation stat is a reference to him copying Gakuki, that's about it, there's no legit "explanation" of what that stat represents. The "intelligence" stat is better named as "knowledge" stat, it's simply referring the amount of knowledge one has when it comes to warfare. However, it's overridden by experience. IE, Ouhon having 90 in that stat is on par if not above Ten who was 92, due to having 1 higher rank of experience.
The observation is how well he studied. How matticulous he was. That's why he'd be able to perform moves that were actually beyond whatever level you think he is. Look at how Akou (87) could use a formation significantly above that level. Now Gakishin was that, but 10 fold over.
Mougou had constantly watched the wars of the Qin 6 and tried to overcome them. He had gone up against Renpa and tried to overcome him to.. So ain't like Gekishin was the only one doing observing a great guy that he couldn't overcome. Rathe Gekishin was literally in the same position as Mougou. Where there was a huge wall in front of him in the state where he was a general. For Gekishin it was 1 guy, for Mougou it was 6 of them.
The difference between Gekishin's hype and portrayal when it comes to the studying of Gakuki, compared to Mougou's old self watching Renpa from a distance, is quite huge, no? One was literally used as a tool to hype a guy up as being in elite level conversations. With Mougou, it was almost from a pity point of view. The old, bang average guy who could not hang but tried because he wanted to stay relevant whilst never gaining the respect until his dying days, vs the man who studied the strongest man in the world to the extent that he himself because the figurehead of a state and a legendary figure.
Well I've already said Kanki mid-diffs Gekishin, and I have Kanki as the weakest of the Qin 5 currently in terms of overall ability.
You just underrate Mougou bruhz, which is fine since in the campaign he had his Vice-generals were highlighted more.
I actually find myself defending Mougou to a lot of people. 89-91-90 is good stats. He's a good general.....but he is a bang average Great General, as Moubu stated.
