Even with currently shown abilities alone. Dismantle & Cleave are pretty high on lethality (comparable to Kashimo) and that Fire Nuke is self explanatory. Sure, Kashimo's lethal and all but Sukuna has RCT to heal himself whereas Kashimo cannot.
Also Hollow Wicker Basket/Simple Domain maneuvers fail when faced against Barrier less Domains as shown in Megumi vs Reggie since these techniques work on the barriers and nullify the guaranteed hit.
However, Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine does not even need a Barrier as shown in Shibuya.
Which means Hollow Wicker Basket is useless against Sukuna and Kashimo is helpless against DE.
As amazing as Hajime is, and as much as I like him, these guys are on totally different scales. 15 fingers really in the grand scheme of things shouldnt be thattttttt much weaker than 20F, and 20F soloed the entire Golden Age, which is stated to be the peak of jujutsu sorcery. Unless we want to say that we just have like five 15 finger level threats running around in Uro, Ryu, Hajime, Hakari, and Yuta, it just doesn't compute.
Also, Sukuna has the best RCT in the series, even better than Hakari, as it's stated he could revive himself and Yuji from the dead with it, has the best domain so far based on feats and statements, that simple domains/HWB's cant protect from, a busted CT, etc.
Sukuna and Gojo simply operate on a different powerscale than anyone else.
Even with currently shown abilities alone. Dismantle & Cleave are pretty high on lethality (comparable to Kashimo) and that Fire Nuke is self explanatory. Sure, Kashimo's lethal and all but Sukuna has RCT to heal himself whereas Kashimo cannot.
Also Hollow Wicker Basket/Simple Domain maneuvers fail when faced against Barrier less Domains as shown in Megumi vs Reggie since these techniques work on the barriers and nullify the guaranteed hit.
However, Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine does not even need a Barrier as shown in Shibuya.
Which means Hollow Wicker Basket is useless against Sukuna and Kashimo is helpless against DE.
Megumi's Domain wasn't even a Domain. As Reggie said, HWB protects against the sure hit of a Domain. Megumi didn't have that since what he did was expand his shadows around the walls of a gym.
It was close to a Domain, but in the emd it was more similar to a Maximum Technique than a proper Domain.
Megumi's Domain wasn't even a Domain. As Reggie said, HWB protects against the sure hit of a Domain. Megumi didn't have that since what he did was expand his shadows around the walls of a gym.
It was close to a Domain, but in the emd it was more similar to a Maximum Technique than a proper Domain.
Yeah. The point that the manga said was that the lack of a Barrier in Megumi's DE was the reason why HWB failed because moves like HWB & Simple domain act on the Barriers of Domain Expansions. But Megumi used the Gymnasium as a Barrier and never constructed a Barrier to begin with.
And Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine also does not use a Barrier, so where would HWB or Simple Domain act on?
Yeah. The point that the manga said was that the lack of a Barrier in Megumi's DE was the reason why HWB failed because moves like HWB & Simple domain act on the Barriers of Domain Expansions. But Megumi used the Gymnasium as a Barrier and never constructed a Barrier to begin with.
And Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine also does not use a Barrier, so where would HWB or Simple Domain act on?
Yeah but the point to Megumi's "domain" is that he isn't making it without a barrier because he is such a genius but because he literally has no concept of how to create a barrier for his domain. He isn't good enough yet.
Yuta was asked by Yuji to fight Sukuna and he said yes. Then we all thought that Yuta was relative to 15 fingers Sukuna.
So Yuta ~ 15 Finger Sukuna
And we had Yuta saying that all out Hakari was superior to himself. Just after Maki corrected him saying he was modest. So you can interpret it the way you want. But overall with Gojo saying Hakari and Yuta can surpass him and naming them together and Yuta statement we can say that Yuta and all out Hakari are not that far from each other.
So using A B C : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Yuta ~ Hakari
And Kashimo is currently putting a great fight against Hakari
So using ABCD logic : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Kashimo
And we have Kashimo wanting to fight Sukuna badly and Kashimo destroying anyone in his own era. The guy lived quite old for someone who craved for fighting that much.
But obviously this logic has limits and nothing is 100% crystal clear with those statements.
Jogo was said to be around 8/9 fingers at best.
Jogo was quite strong but Kashimo has better portrayal.
Kashimo should be at worst 10/12 fingers.
Now if we go by match up and feats : obviously Sukuna has flashier feats and better feats. Beating down Jogo, beating Mahoraga etc.
And I followed your discussion above and if Kashimo can’t use Hollow basket or simple domain against Sukuna DE he will have a serious problem.
But against Domain less Sukuna I think kashimo can do good, and his elelctric powers are lethal as fuck.
I think I can give it to Sukuna for now because of his domain.
Yeah but the point to Megumi's "domain" is that he isn't making it without a barrier because he is such a genius but because he literally has no concept of how to create a barrier for his domain. He isn't good enough yet.
Yuta was asked by Yuji to fight Sukuna and he said yes. Then we all thought that Yuta was relative to 15 fingers Sukuna.
So Yuta ~ 15 Finger Sukuna
And we had Yuta saying that all out Hakari was superior to himself. Just after Maki corrected him saying he was modest. So you can interpret it the way you want. But overall with Gojo saying Hakari and Yuta can surpass him and naming them together and Yuta statement we can say that Yuta and all out Hakari are not that far from each other.
So using A B C : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Yuta ~ Hakari
And Kashimo is currently putting a great fight against Hakari
So using ABCD logic : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Kashimo
And we have Kashimo wanting to fight Sukuna badly and Kashimo destroying anyone in his own era. The guy liked quite old for someone who craved for fighting that much.
But obviously this logic as limits and nothing is 100% crystal clear with those statements.
Jogo was said to be around 8/9 fingers at best.
Jogo was quite strong but Kashimo has better portrayal.
Kashimo should be at worst 10/12 fingers.
Now if we go by match up and feats : obviously Sukuna has flashier feats and better feats. Beating down Jogo, beating Mahoraga etc.
And I followed your discussion above and if Kashimo can’t use Hollow basket or simple domain against Sukuna DE he will have a serious problem.
But against Domain less Sukuna I think kashimo can do good, and his elelctric powers are lethal as fuck.
I think I can give it to Sukuna for now because of his domain.
But it won’t be a low diff fight at all.
It’s a shonen, the perfect forms are often/always much more powerful than the barely complete forms.
Even if he misses one finger I think Sukuna would be quite weaker than his complete form.
for exemple Platinum Sperm >> Golden Sperm
So I think 20 fingers Sukuna is really above 15 and not by a small margin.
Sukuna never used Malevolent Shrine vs Jogo because Jogo didnt use Coffin of the Iron Mountain either but also becauss it would get negged instantly and Jogo knew it.
But Mahoraga was a different Matchup - its ability needed more Skills to be used since it would get back up everytime and Learn Counters to that Technique and not because it was Stronger. Mahoraga's Adaptability applies to All related Techniques as shown when it adapted to Slashing attacks itself after seeing Dismantle once. Hence he had to use Malevolent Shrine to Attack it with Cleave rapidly forcing its Regen to wear out before attacking it with that Nuke. Doesn't mean the Difficulty is higher, it means that due to needing Variety Sukuna had to use Different techniques.
Sukuna never used Malevolent Shrine vs Jogo because Jogo didnt use Coffin of the Iron Mountain either but also becauss it would get negged instantly and Jogo knew it.
But Mahoraga was a different Matchup - its ability needed more Skills to be used since it would get back up everytime and Learn Counters to that Technique and not because it was Stronger. Mahoraga's Adaptability applies to All related Techniques as shown when it adapted to Slashing attacks itself after seeing Dismantle once. Hence he had to use Malevolent Shrine to Attack it with Cleave rapidly forcing its Regen to wear out before attacking it with that Nuke. Doesn't mean the Difficulty is higher, it means that due to needing Variety Sukuna had to use Different techniques.
Sukuna was clearly more in difficulty against Mahoraga than he was against Jogo
Mahoraga negged a good part of Sukuna offense
And Sukuna had to think and adapt and create a plan. Something he never did against Jogo, he just bullied him.
Mahoraga just put a better challenge
I don’t remember Jogo even scoring one hit against Sukuna while Maho
Sukuna vs Jogo was just Gojo vs Jogo again. A stomp match but with respect this time.
Mahoraga given his specificity posed more of a challenge hence a higher difficulty.
Sukuna never used Malevolent Shrine vs Jogo because Jogo didnt use Coffin of the Iron Mountain either but also becauss it would get negged instantly and Jogo knew it
Sukuna was clearly more in difficulty against Mahoraga than he was against Jogo
Mahoraga negged a good part of Sukuna offense
And Sukuna had to think and adapt and create a plan. Something he never did against Jogo, he just bullied him.
And 95% of his Issues came from Lack of Knowledge and having to think on the Fly. He wouldnt have even been hit once if he knew about the Adaptability. The rest came from needing to beat the Adaptability - variety not strength. Malevolent Shrine was destroying Mahoraga.
Jogo is a Straight Forward fighter who didnt even use as much of his Techniques that he used against Gojo multiple times - Domain Amplification & Coffin of the Iron Mountain. Not to mention, Jogo had already Fought Gojo and then neg diffd Naobito, Nanami and Maki - expending CE while also getting into a Direct Competition with Sukuna over whose Flame Technique is better like a Proud Idiot After the Maximum. Meanwhile Mahoraga was Fresh.
Yuta was asked by Yuji to fight Sukuna and he said yes. Then we all thought that Yuta was relative to 15 fingers Sukuna.
So Yuta ~ 15 Finger Sukuna
And we had Yuta saying that all out Hakari was superior to himself. Just after Maki corrected him saying he was modest. So you can interpret it the way you want. But overall with Gojo saying Hakari and Yuta can surpass him and naming them together and Yuta statement we can say that Yuta and all out Hakari are not that far from each other.
So using A B C : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Yuta ~ Hakari
And Kashimo is currently putting a great fight against Hakari
So using ABCD logic : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Kashimo
And we have Kashimo wanting to fight Sukuna badly and Kashimo destroying anyone in his own era. The guy lived quite old for someone who craved for fighting that much.
But obviously this logic has limits and nothing is 100% crystal clear with those statements.
Jogo was said to be around 8/9 fingers at best.
Jogo was quite strong but Kashimo has better portrayal.
Kashimo should be at worst 10/12 fingers.
Now if we go by match up and feats : obviously Sukuna has flashier feats and better feats. Beating down Jogo, beating Mahoraga etc.
And I followed your discussion above and if Kashimo can’t use Hollow basket or simple domain against Sukuna DE he will have a serious problem.
But against Domain less Sukuna I think kashimo can do good, and his elelctric powers are lethal as fuck.
I think I can give it to Sukuna for now because of his domain.
But it won’t be a low diff fight at all.
It’s a shonen, the perfect forms are often/always much more powerful than the barely complete forms.
Even if he misses one finger I think Sukuna would be quite weaker than his complete form.
for exemple Platinum Sperm >> Golden Sperm
So I think 20 fingers Sukuna is really above 15 and not by a small margin.
All Yuji said is he didn't think Yuta would hesitate to fight Sukuna. There's a subtle nuance there. There's many issues with using Yuji's statement to scale Yuta to 15 finger. For one, we don't know his rationale. Yuji doesn't seem to remember what happened when Sukuna took over Yuji's body, and Sukuna has to remind him of the carnage he caused in shibuya. The other issues are as such: If Yuji is just basing it off the fact that Yuta has more cursed energy than Gojo, and Gojo told Yuji that he'd be able to beat Sukuna with "little trouble" then that doesn't work, due to the fact that Gojo is much stronger than Yuta due to his Cursed energy manipulation. Using raw Cursed energy volume to scale doesn't really work in JJK.
OR: The other alternative, if he isn't just talking out his ass, is that based off his fight with Yuta, he thinks he is 15F level. The issue with this is that Yuji was pretty much relative to this Yuta, and this would indicate A nerfed suicidal Yuji is 15F level. Which is blatantly untrue.
"So using ABCD logic : 15 Finger Sukuna ~ Kashimo"
This logic doesn't work for one because I already disestablished Yuta to 15 finger, and if we take what you say as true, it means theres at least 5 people running around in the culling games that are roughly 15 finger level. Based on the fact that Sukuna soloed his own age, if there were 5+ fifteen finger level people running around, that shouldn't have happened.
And we have Kashimo wanting to fight Sukuna badly and Kashimo destroying anyone in his own era. The guy lived quite old for someone who craved for fighting that much.
Jogo wanted to fight Gojo and we saw how that turned out
But obviously this logic has limits and nothing is 100% crystal clear with those statements.
Jogo was said to be around 8/9 fingers at best.
This is almost certainly either A: Kenjaku lying to Jogo, in order to make him more subservient after getting his ass beat, or B: just in reference to cursed energy amount, and I'll explain why. For one, Mahito implies this almost verbatim. When encountering 3F Sukuna, he notes that Jogo has more cursed energy, but Sukuna's soul (Which is where emotions come from, and cursed energy by extension comes from that, i.e. the quality of your cursed energy) is on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT LEVEL such to the point that Mahito has 100% CONFIDENCE that if Sukuna is fully revived, that the curses will win. 3 Finger also has better portrayal in that while massively holding back and being weakened, his speed is compared to Toji's, who makes Naobito (who at max speed is faster than Jogo) shit his pants.
Jogo was quite strong but Kashimo has better portrayal.
I agree
Kashimo should be at worst 10/12 fingers.
Again, I'll bring up what I illustrated earlier. If Kashimo, who isn't even from the Golden Age, is 10-12 fingers in strength, and we've already seen 5 people roughly on his level already, then 20 finger Sukuna should not have been able to solo 60+ Finger levels of strength. It just doesn't add up.
It’s a shonen, the perfect forms are often/always much more powerful than the barely complete forms. It’s a shonen, the perfect forms are often/always much more powerful than the barely complete forms.
I agree with this, but only to an extent. There should obviously be a substantial gap, but it shouldn't be so large as what implies what I just wrote
"If Kashimo, who isn't even from the Golden Age, is 10-12 fingers in strength, and we've already seen 5 people roughly on his level already, then 20 finger Sukuna should not have been able to solo 60+ Finger levels of strength. It just doesn't add up."
And 95% of his Issues came from Lack of Knowledge and having to think on the Fly. He wouldnt have even been hit once if he knew about the Adaptability. The rest came from needing to beat the Adaptability - variety not strength. Malevolent Shrine was destroying Mahoraga.
Jogo is a Straight Forward fighter who didnt even use as much of his Techniques that he used against Gojo multiple times - Domain Amplification & Coffin of the Iron Mountain. Not to mention, Jogo had already Fought Gojo and then neg diffd Naobito, Nanami and Maki - expending CE while also getting into a Direct Competition with Sukuna over whose Flame Technique is better like a Proud Idiot After the Maximum. Meanwhile Mahoraga was Fresh.
Difference is Jogo didnt use all of his Techniques as well. If Jogo used Coffin of the Iron Mountain, Sukuna wouldve used Malevolent Shrine as well.
He would've, he would just need to use more different Weak Techniques to do the Job because of the Adaptability..
Still a Low diff however if you call the Jogo fight a Neg Diff Idrc.
Yeah Mahoraga was a low diff if anything, Sukuna's biggest issue was figuring out his ability, not actually dealing with it once he figured it out. He held back with domain to test his theory, then once his suspicions was confirmed, casually one shot him with not even his strongest attack.
Maybe we haven’t the same « diff » but for me a neg diffed is to be negged instantly with one or two basic attacks.
For exemple Boby Funk was neg dogged by Dofla with a single 5 color string while Sanji was low diffed : tanked some basic attacks some little clash and was beaten quick after that.
Jogo suffered but tanked casual Sukuna punchs tried to fight back with meteor and then a clash and was beaten. He was praised a little by Sukuna even if far below. Overall a low diff in my book.
And 95% of his Issues came from Lack of Knowledge and having to think on the Fly. He wouldnt have even been hit once if he knew about the Adaptability. The rest came from needing to beat the Adaptability - variety not strength. Malevolent Shrine was destroying Mahoraga.
Jogo is a Straight Forward fighter who didnt even use as much of his Techniques that he used against Gojo multiple times - Domain Amplification & Coffin of the Iron Mountain. Not to mention, Jogo had already Fought Gojo and then neg diffd Naobito, Nanami and Maki - expending CE while also getting into a Direct Competition with Sukuna over whose Flame Technique is better like a Proud Idiot After the Maximum. Meanwhile Mahoraga was Fresh.
Jogo didn’t use them because he was outright dominated,
Jogo only played the bad boy against Gojo when he had 3 other fights with him, a room full of innocent people etc. In 1 vs 1 Gojo would have stomped him again easy,
Overall against Mahoraga :
- had to adapt because Maho mitigated or negated half Sukuna offense
- Sukuna had to make a strategy to beat him
- was pushed back once and suffered minimal damage
- Maho blocked some of Sukuna attacks
- Sukuna used his DE and an other flame attack to end him.
We can call it whatever we want but it’s a more difficult fight than Jogo was.
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