Chapter Discussion Let's Be Honest About Kanjuro...

#1
Difference between KNOWING and GUESSING

There is indeed a difference. We seem to have this idea that if we say the right answer regardless of how dumb the reason is, then we're right. Not necessarily. What matters the most to be right even if one says the correct answer is the reason behind the answer.

If you say it's going to rain tomorrow because 3 cats crossed the road, and it does happen to rain the following day, you're not exactly correct, you're just lucky because your reasoning was incorrect. It certainly didn't rain because 3 cats crossed the road. If your reasoning for an answer is incorrect, getting the answer correct is simply luck.

What's my point? No one got Kanjuro being the traitor correct, they guessed it. Why do I say that? It's because no one mentioned the reasons the Manga gave for why he was the traitor.

Simply put, if reasoning for an answer is not consistent with the the answer, it's simply luck, not deduction.

No One Could Know It was Kanjuro

Ironically, this is the reality. Why exactly? because there was no evidence or anything substantial to make him out as the culprit definitely.

A List of Insubstantial Reasons People Try to Use

Kanjuro is a Kabuki actor in appearance, therefore he's the traitor: This isn't evidence he's a traitor. We just know that's his design is that of a Kabuki actor. Can't tell Kanjuro is a traitor simply because he's wearing a Kabuki actor. Oda could just as well have said he dresses like one because he has dreams to be an actor. There's not enough detail or context here to use this as reason he's a traitor.

Inuarashi Claiming Jack got to Zou with a Vivre Card: This isn't evidence. Most people knew Jack got to Zou by Vivre card as Inuarashi mentioned it. Problem is we don't know how he got it, therefore, we can't blame anyone.
If this was evidence, Inuarashi would have known who the culprit was, but he never knew. There are so many ways Kaido could have acquired a Vivre card.
How do we know Oden didn't keep Vivre Cards for Zou and he acquired it when he killed him? How do we know the Beast Pirates didn't acquire toe nail clippings of Inuarashi or Nekomamushi, so they could trail them 20 years later?

One point someone made was because Kinemon and Kanjuro knew Raizo went to Zou, therefore, the suspect must be 1 of these 3. That's actually incorrect. How do we know Raizo wasn't the one decided to crash the boat so he could lead the Beast Pirates there? How do we know Kiku wasn't the one who ratted the alliance out?

Kiku was in Wano the entire time Raizo, Kinemon and Kanjuro left for Zou. She would have known they went to Zou, so who is to say she didn't expose their trip to Kaido and Orochi?

Kanjuro was captured by Joker and Escaped: Not a good reason either because Kanjuro was hidden. It's not like he was strolling around nonchalantly with Joker to make him out as a traitor. He actually created a hideout with his ability which would suggest he was actually hiding. Therefore, we couldn't use this to pin him as a traitor.

Birds appearing near Kanjuro: For one, we couldn't really tell if he drew them or not. We had no idea he could draw in the first place.

More so, it's an assumption to claim those birds are even capable of sending messages. We don't know this at all. People are just assuming he can send messages because they've watched Naruto and think of Sai. Would be like looking at Crocodile and saying he can do the things Gaara can do with sand which... he can't. Gaara does things Crocodile could only dream of doing.

In fact, we see Orochi reading the intelligence off paper, not from some bird that Kanjuro drew that landed in his hand. So, it doesn't look like he was sending information with his DF powers as we don't even know if that's possible. We only know he was getting them via paper.

The Reality



As Kinemon said, he can't tell who it is because there was no evidence. The only way he or they (Inuarashi especially) is if they confessed and that's the reality.

Almost every reason we can give for why Kanjuro is the culprit can apply to any of the scabbards which makes it impossible to know if there was a traitor to begin with or who it even was.

Oda created a situation as such that he could literally have made any one of the scabbards the traitor.

He could have said it was Shinobu and we wouldn't be able to say otherwise; he could have said Kinemon or Inuarashi or Nekomamushi or Denjiro (Kyoshiro); there was simply no evidence to cement anyone as a traitor.



Even Orochi said he didn't believe the scabbards were alive.

What does this mean? It means if any of us even said Kanjuro was the traitor, we'd have to say that can't be the case because why then would Orochi say he didn't believe the scabbards were alive IF a scabbard was the one sending him information?

In fact, if people assume Kanjuro sent messages via bird messages. Orochi receiving messages from a magical bird from a DF should be proof Kanjuro (a scabbard) was alive meaning the other scabbards would be alive to.



As Kinemon said, they all nearly died together, so there was literally no way to pinpoint anyone as a traitor.



There was only 1 piece of evidence that there was a traitor, and that was Oda revealing a traitor in the latest chapter. Had Kanjuro not revealed himself, no one would have known for a fact he was the traitor because no one knew the reasons he was a traitor because none of these reasons were given to us in previous chapters.

Furthermore, the fact Oda had to introduce new facts to make him the traitor proves there was no evidence to begin with:
  • We only just knew he was a Kurozumi - No one could have known this to make him out as a definite traitor.
  • He was looking for a place to die from youth - No one could have known this to make him out as a traitor.
  • He was a traitor from the beginning - No one could know he was a traitor from the start.

There was no evidence. No one mentioned any of the reasons why he was a traitor because there was none and there was nothing substantial.
 
#2
I agree with you. There were a lot of hints but never a real proof. Now that he is revealed we can link many dots: he was on Zou (like many other scabbards), had the ability to comunicate with Orochi even at great distances (but this could have been done even in other, not known, ways) and many others like you pointed but they were not definitive and Oda precisely intended to do so.

If Oda left a definitve proof that Kanjuro was the traitor and a fan spotted it (chance 110% given how big the audiance is) that would have ruined the whole plot since one of the main revelations would have been already spoiled not to mention that for the fans try to guess who the traitor was was one of the main talks.
 
#3
This sounds like someone who was wrong and made excuse. We don't have to know the reason he dod it, what we should do is find the hints Oda gave us. Oda gave us a large amount of hints that it was painfully obvious.
1. He lied about knowing to draw. He drawed Ussop good
2.He has the means to communicate with his birds. The Birds were shown above him the same exact budx he drawed before. Why the hell would he randomly draw birds.
3. He said 4000 men and one chapter later Orochi said 4000 men. Even though Kinemon got the update to 4200 after the meeting.
4. It had to be someone from the future cause Orochi didn't know where the samurai was in past 20 years
5. He literally was helping Doffy. Okiku gathered Info on beast pirates, etc... all Scabbards did something but him

We didn't kmow the reason why thry traveled in time, but people interpret the story from hints. Like Momo saying he met Roger. We don't have to get the reason right, just interpret what the author is throwing our way
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
#4
Kanjuro has been a suspect since 2014. He appearing in the scrap heap unharmed and having the ability to leave the whole time being reasons.

2016 when Inurashi directly gave light to the possibility of a traitor, Kanjuro was a popular suspect and it only grew in Wano. Cases could be made for him, Okiku and Kanjuro.

Problem was the Oden flashback....it went out of it's way to make all the scabbards SUPER innocent.....2 chapters later, SWERVE! It is Kanjuro! And was given a personality that was AWFULLY convenient for the situation and in an attempt to cover up any logical holes.

Makes everything a huge contrivance. Heck, @Den_Den_Mushi added that Inurashi suspected a traitor cause of the Vivre Card and did NOTHING about it. No one did anything about it.
 

Garp the Fist

Bwahahahaha
#5
The reason I always thought it was Kanjuro was simply because if he wasn't the traitor he was a pretty pointless and forgettable character. He's the Scabbard that's been around second longest and he's always just sort of been there in the background without ever really getting focused on.

So I figured Oda's gotta have a use for the guy eventually, there's a traitor, things line up enough for it to be him so he was my guess.
 
#6
Kanjuro was suspect number #1 for a lot of people for a long time and my top candidate when I realized the traitor could not reasonably be a mink. It was only when he was almost killed in Oden's flashback that I started to have some serious doubts, but Oda used that to explain why none of the other scabbards suspected him at any point.
 
#7
This sounds like someone who was wrong and made excuse. We don't have to know the reason he dod it, what we should do is find the hints Oda gave us. Oda gave us a large amount of hints that it was painfully obvious.
1. He lied about knowing to draw. He drawed Ussop good
2.He has the means to communicate with his birds. The Birds were shown above him the same exact budx he drawed before. Why the hell would he randomly draw birds.
3. He said 4000 men and one chapter later Orochi said 4000 men. Even though Kinemon got the update to 4200 after the meeting.
4. It had to be someone from the future cause Orochi didn't know where the samurai was in past 20 years
5. He literally was helping Doffy. Okiku gathered Info on beast pirates, etc... all Scabbards did something but him

We didn't kmow the reason why thry traveled in time, but people interpret the story from hints. Like Momo saying he met Roger. We don't have to get the reason right, just interpret what the author is throwing our way
It sure sounds like someone being salty that the traitor for some reason wasn't Ashura Doji
 
#8
We don't have to know the reason he dod it, what we should do is find the hints Oda gave us. Oda gave us a large amount of hints that it was painfully obvious.
Don't think you read properly, lol.

Never said we needed to know the reason he did it.

I said we don't have evidence to make a reason why we suspected Kanjuro. That's what I said.

No one had good reason to suspect Kanjuro because everything that's being used as reason could be applied to any of the samurai.
 
#9
I agree with you. There were a lot of hints but never a real proof. Now that he is revealed we can link many dots: he was on Zou (like many other scabbards), had the ability to comunicate with Orochi even at great distances (but this could have been done even in other, not known, ways) and many others like you pointed but they were not definitive and Oda precisely intended to do so.

If Oda left a definitve proof that Kanjuro was the traitor and a fan spotted it (chance 110% given how big the audiance is) that would have ruined the whole plot since one of the main revelations would have been already spoiled not to mention that for the fans try to guess who the traitor was was one of the main talks.
Exactly.

I think the entire point was Oda didn't want anyone to figure it out, so he gave no hints and wrote the arc in such a way that he could make any of the scabbards a traitor if he wanted.

Heck, if Oda wanted to make Kinemon or Ashura Doji or Momonosuke or Inuarashi the traitor, he easily could have.

There was nothing substantial to really blame any scabbard as being a traitor.
 
#10
It sure sounds like someone being salty that the traitor for some reason wasn't Ashura Doji
Has nothing to do with being salty.

I could read the entire arc minus this latest chapter 10 times over and even you or anyone wouldn't know it was Kanjuro with definite evidence is my point.

The entire reason Oda couldn't really point back to a flashback as proof Kanjuro was the traitor was because there was no proof. That's why Kinemon himself had no idea who it could be.

My entire point is Oda didn't provide evidence so that he could more or less surprise the audience.

The traitor could have been anyone and no one at the same time.

More so, people are claiming they knew it was Kanjuro when they in fact never knew, all they did was guess, lol. No one could have known, the best we could do was guess.

In fact, I could go as far as saying Oda almost had to lie to the audience.

He made Orochi say he didn't believe they were alive even though he was getting intel from an actual scabbard. Thta is quite misleading if not literally lying to the reader to confuse them.
 
#11
Kanjuro has been a suspect since 2014. He appearing in the scrap heap unharmed and having the ability to leave the whole time being reasons.

2016 when Inurashi directly gave light to the possibility of a traitor, Kanjuro was a popular suspect and it only grew in Wano. Cases could be made for him, Okiku and Kanjuro.

Problem was the Oden flashback....it went out of it's way to make all the scabbards SUPER innocent.....2 chapters later, SWERVE! It is Kanjuro! And was given a personality that was AWFULLY convenient for the situation and in an attempt to cover up any logical holes.

Makes everything a huge contrivance. Heck, @Den_Den_Mushi added that Inurashi suspected a traitor cause of the Vivre Card and did NOTHING about it. No one did anything about it.
Inuarashi saying vivre card was how they made it to Zou is still not evidence to suspect Kanjuro.

For one:
  • Arriving at Zou could be blamed on Kanjuro just as much as Raizo or Kinemon or Momonosuke.
No one would suspect still because everything they'd done all proved their loyality which was another reason why Kinemon couldn't suspect him or anyone.

Even in Wano, there was no evidence. Everything Kanjuro did was consistent with an ally.

If people really suspected Kanjuro with such conviction like they're feigning now, why did they go on to blame Shinobu? some even blamed Law iirc.

My point is Oda gave no concrete evidence about anything.

If there were evidence, Oda wouldn't have literally had to reintroduce us to Kanjuro and explain why he was the traitor. He'd have pointed to suspicious activity via flashback, but there was none.
 
#12
Don't think you read properly, lol.

Never said we needed to know the reason he did it.

I said we don't have evidence to make a reason why we suspected Kanjuro. That's what I said.

No one had good reason to suspect Kanjuro because everything that's being used as reason could be applied to any of the samurai.
We did have evidence and plenty of it. Just like with the time travel stuff.
 
#13
Inuarashi saying vivre card was how they made it to Zou is still not evidence to suspect Kanjuro.

For one:
  • Arriving at Zou could be blamed on Kanjuro just as much as Raizo or Kinemon or Momonosuke.
No one would suspect still because everything they'd done all proved their loyality which was another reason why Kinemon couldn't suspect him or anyone.

Even in Wano, there was no evidence. Everything Kanjuro did was consistent with an ally.

If people really suspected Kanjuro with such conviction like they're feigning now, why did they go on to blame Shinobu? some even blamed Law iirc.

My point is Oda gave no concrete evidence about anything.

If there were evidence, Oda wouldn't have literally had to reintroduce us to Kanjuro and explain why he was the traitor. He'd have pointed to suspicious activity via flashback, but there was none.
Cause people have different theories and opinions. Everyone theory isn't going to be right, but by 2 chapters ago the majority of people were saying Kanjuro was the traitor. After Shinobu got crossed out i seen plenty of people said Kanjuro. Marco the theorist, the one who predicted time travel, made a video listing out evidence that it is Kanjuro. He been right a few times. He probably just gets Oda righting style amd hints.
 
#14
We did have evidence and plenty of it. Just like with the time travel stuff.
Time travel definitely had evidence to it. This didn't.

Cause people have different theories and opinions. Everyone theory isn't going to be right, but by 2 chapters ago the majority of people were saying Kanjuro was the traitor. After Shinobu got crossed out i seen plenty of people said Kanjuro. Marco the theorist, the one who predicted time travel, made a video listing out evidence that it is Kanjuro. He been right a few times. He probably just gets Oda righting style amd hints.
Marco got the answer right, but his reasoning his wrong. He got lucky.

For example, he said this:



he said Nekomamushi and Inuarashi cannot be the traitor because they proved their loyalty.

What about:
  1. Kinemon
  2. Raizo
  3. Shinobu
  4. Kawamatsu
  5. Shutenmaru
ALL proved their loyalty. So, if this is his basis for not suspecting Inuarashi, it's weird to suspect Kanjuro. Kanjuro has also proven his loyalty.



He dismissed O-Kiku. O-Kiku would easily be aware the samurai were heading for Zou.

Kinemon. Kanjuro and Momonosuke ended up in Dressrosa iniitally after separation from Raizo and Kaido had already informed Joker about looking out for them. All it'd take is Joker telling them Kinemon and Kanjuro made it to Dressrosa and they'd easily know from O-Kiku (assuming she was the traitor) that Raizo must be at Zou as he wasn't with the others.

How would Joker know about Kinemon and co. by identity? He saw them 20 years ago and they were spotted leaving the borders of Wano. Wouldn't be difficult to identify them.

This again is not substantial enough information to suspect Kanjuro specifically or any of the scabbards.



Kanjuro's reaction here is not the least bit suspicious. He's not scared. He's just surprised at how resourceful she is. This again isn't enough to say Kanjuro is the traitor.



He says Kanjuro telling Shinobu to calm down when she was made is suspicious. How is telling someone who is mad and upset to calm down suspicious? That's what a sensible person does to stop them from making foolish mistakes. Nothing here indicates Kanjuro was wishing for the Heart Pirates to be caught or for Law to be caught.



He says the person must have free time? Not necessarily.



In fact there's a panel where Kinemon asks for Inuarashi saying "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN" implying Inuarashi was nowhere in sight for how long? We don't know. I could have said since Inuarashi wasn't where Kinemon expected him to be, then he must be the leak? but wait, because he's proven loyalty, he can't be the traitor... like the other scabbards.

He also says the traitor must be someone with abilities to send information. He's ASSUMING Kanjuro's birds can deliver messages becauase he's been watching Naruto's Sai. Not necessarily nor is ther eevidence that Kanjuro's birds can deliver messages. We in fact see Orochi reading an actual letter, not a bird made of ink.



He said Kanjuro was fine at Dressrosa. What's suspicious about being fine when you have an ability you're able to use to create a door/portal to hide at? It's not like Kanjuro was chilling with Joker playing chess. He was hiding which would make sense for someone who is actually trying to hide from an enemy.

Like I said, he was lucky. There's really nothing substantial to make out Kanjuro was the actual traitor or there even being a traitor amongst the crew to begin with.

The reasons he uses to make Kanjuro the traitor is contrived for one. Some of the reasons could be applied to anyone. And of course, the fact he dismissed Inuarashi and Nekomamushi as not being the traitors simply because they proved their loyalty proves he was lucky, why? Kanjuro was willing to die as he himself said.

No one had actual correct reasons for why he was the traitor, they simply guessed and got lucky.
 
T
#15
its the reason why multiple choice tests are dumb as hell.
here in germany the reason/method you came to a conclusion gives more points than the actual answer. at least it used to when I was still in school.
use the right approach in math with the right answer? 5pts.
get the wrong answer out of it while still using the right way? 4.5pts.

we got a bit of hints that Kanjuro may be a traitor, but we never got definite proof.
no one KNEW it was Kanjuro, but many GUESSED it correctly.
 
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