Location: Hogwarts
Distance: 8 feet
Knowledge: Cursory info at best. IE their dark lord titles.
This is NOT an outright battle.
Which character can corrupt the other? Who is more so sister, convincing and wicked? Using their full powers, who becomes master and who becomes the servant?
This is Sauron Pre—Numenor.
Round 1 — Disney Palpatine
Round 2 — Legends Palpatine
Sauron by a mile if you consider all the lore. He could shapeshift in whatever suited him, intimidate with his eyes alone. He’s basically a god and managed to fool elves, humans and then some just by his presence.
Palpy screwed over the Sith, Jedi and the Republic, but a lot of it was by political means. The Jedi didn’t fully trust him.
An influence/corruption battle ay? We need more of these lol.
So the thing with Sauron is that he can actually corrupt your mind. And seemingly nobody is truly exempt from this, even Saruman the White himself gave in to Sauron’s influence. Sauron’s magic is so powerful that he can corrupt anybody within LOTR which includes demi-god-like entities. With Sauron, it’s not a question of if he corrupts you, but how or when. There are people in Middle Earth who can resist him for long periods of time like Elrond and such since falling prey to him is metaphor for giving in to corruption and all, but the potential to be corrupted by Sauron exists within everyone in Middle Earth.
Palpatine doesn’t actually corrupt anybody, his only real power to corrupt people has to do with how vulnerable you are to the influence of the dark side. He took control over the Republic by tricking everyone and destroying his enemies through military force.
Palpatine doesn’t actually have that great ability to corrupt, Sauron does. So I would say Sauron definitely corrupts Palpatine.
EU Palpatine would resist Sauron quite admirably before ultimately falling prey to him.
Disney Palpatine gets mind-fucked into becoming a jester.
Sauron made Saruman his bitch an other mighty being this is quite the good feat.
Sauron corrupted and managed to subdue a lot of people elves dwarfs etc.
Palpatine had great sway over others and can also corrupt and push people to dark side but less than Sauron.
I can see it happening like with Saruman.
Palpatine will rally Sauron and will try to overtake him subtly (like any sith) but he will ultimately fall into Sauron's trap and mind.
I wonder what can happen if Palpatine put his hands on the One. I think he will be able to be really strong with it but will fall because the One will is too strong.
And ever since the One is not destroyed Sauron won't die, and Palpatine who urges for power like hell won't ever destroy the ring.
Sauron in the end is a mid-high tier god of the LOTR verse. He for sure is both crafty with his tongue and manners (tricked many even among the elf lords and indeed one made the rings of power with Sauron's help) and has powers which corrupt your mind (the one ring is indeed just a not so small portion of Sauron's power put in an object and everybody knows how the ring corrupts the bearer and everybody around it) yet there are still some factors: the wisests are more resistent to his charm (Galadriel and Elrond were wary when Sauron presented at them in human form gifting rings of power while other elf lords worked with him) and humans for sure are more prone to fall victim to his corruction but that is possible even for other demigods like Gandalf who refused to take the ring (either the ring dominated him or he feared to become another dark lord, pretty much the same Galadriel says to Frodo, maube in the end theycan subdue the ring and so that portion of Sauron power but become in the end dark lords just like him and that could also be Sauron's will afterall) but then we have dwarves, who are sepcial cases, who can resist very well the will of evil, it is mentioned it only makes them more greedy for gold and other preciouss. Then there is people like Tom Bombadil who wear the ring like nothing but he is for sure some kind of higher entity so it doesn't count. So Sauron could just offer Palpatine the ring of power faking friendship and explaining how that will gave him powers he has never seen and at that point, depending of what Palpatine is in the end, it is very difficult to escape, he is already in the web.
But then of course Palpatine should smell something is wrong since these are the same tactics he uses to trap his preys (see him tricking Anakin in believing only a sith has the power to save Padme) but for me it in the end falls on what Palapatine is.
I like Star wars universe but I'm not very knowledgable outside of the movies so if Palpatine in the end is just an human with very high midiglorian/talent he is royally fucked given how hungry for power he should be, if he recognizes Sauron as a superior entity that can grant him power then it is the end. Like Faust making a pact with the devil, he goes on a little believing he is free and powerfull and ends up as a wraith of the ring but if actually the midiglorian can mean something different (there is the theory about Jesus Anakin even if in the end I recall the main theory is that, spoiler, Anakin was just an experiment made by Palpatine and his master Plagueis). Actually if it was Yoda vs Sauron it would be a way better match since while the sith are absolutely hungry for more power jedi are not and Yoda even less maybe. Guess we will have to wait for Buustan who should be a star wars expert (don't know if there are others around).
Here's a list of people the Sidious has corrupted or manipulated to serve his goals: the Palpatine family, Darth Plagueis, Count Dooku, Mother Talzin, Darth Maul, General Grievous, every Separatist leader in the Clone Wars, the Republic, the Jedi Order, and of course his most special pawn, Anakin Skywalker himself. Sidious has been manipulating and corrupting people since Day 1. And nobody has corrupted or manipulated Sidious, not even his own master, who Sidious used as a pawn to learn all his knowledge and then backstab him and kill him the first chance he got.
So I think Sidious ability to corrupt people is being vastly underestimated in this thread, and I also think Sidious ability is resist corruption is also being underestimated. Even before Sidious learned the ways of the force, his own master was incapable of reading his thoughts or corrupting. Now Sidious has mastered every aspect of the Dark Side so he should be skilled at resisting corruption from others.
As for who is more sinister or wicked? Well Sidious murdered both his parents and siblings. He murdered his master. He kidnapped a baby from a mother (Darth Maul and Mother Talzin), manipulated countless of pawns to start the greatest war the galaxy had ever seen which lead to a countless amount of deaths, nearly exterminated a religious order that lasted for a millennium (Jedi Order), took over the entire galaxy and ruled it as a tyrannical leader, created a device that could destroy an entire planet and actually ended up using it. What's more sinister and wicked then that?
Don't really know who Sauron is or what he can do, but wasn't a fan of the Sidious comments in this thread. Gonna vote for Sidious because seeing my boy 0-5 in the polls is painful. Knowing 50% of the combatants is enough to participate in a Multiverse thread.
Well, here is a very quick summation of why Sauron wins this:
From a story perspective, Sidious is a villain who sometimes corrupts, sometimes deceives, and sometimes kills people.
From a story perspective, Sauron is corruption itself. Or at least, Sauron invented the means through which corruption itself occurs inside Middle Earth because of Sauron and his machinations. Kings of Kingshave had their minds corrupted by him. Falling prey to Sauron’s influence is an inevitability for every man, and it is only through constant and diligent resistance to his will that you can hope to die peacefully before his influence invades your mind.
Sidious has little on that. He is ultimately just a man, albeit a very powerful one. There are people within the Star Wars ethos who would never fall victim to his influence or temptation. That does not apply to Sauron. Everyone will fall to him eventually when exposed to him and his schemings.
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I also want to address every individual you said Sauron corrupted and explain why he actually didn’t corrupt half of them:
You are already starting off on a heavily debatable note, as any individual’s family is likely to support their own family members regardless of what path they choose. Parents will hide their children’s murder victims. Did Palpatine actually corrupt his family who already saw him as a prodigy and a genius anyway?
What? Plagueis was Palpatine’s Master and formal instructor in the ways of the Dark Side. If anything, it was Plagueis who corrupted Palpatine who still knew little of the force when he met Dark Lord Plagueis.
Let’s get something straight about Dooku: Dooku lost faith in the Republic itself and was seduced by the Dark Side of the force, not Sidious. Dooku would’ve joined the first Dark Lord he laid eyes on by that point in his life. Sidious just so happened to be the only one in the galaxy.
I’m only familiar with the original Legends Maul and not the crap Disney Maul, but the Maul I know was kidnapped by Sidious at birth and raised in Sith tradition. That’s not corruption, that’s just parenting lol.
They followed him out of fear. If you consider that corruption than be my guest lol. Sauron literally invaded the minds of his enemies. He didn’t rule them by fear, he seduced them with his majesty and power.
Sidious deceived the Republic and changed its Democracy to an Empire through politics. Corruption? Not in the same sense that Sauron literally re-wrote the will of his enemies.
Probably the most honest example of Sidious corrupting someone, but even then Anakin was seduced by the promise of the power to save Padme, not necessarily Sidious himself.
That’s the thing with Sidious, the people he corrupts are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force, not Sidious himself. The people Sauron corrupts literally devote their entire existence to Sauron himself.
Even if we go out on a limb and assume the ones Sidious corrupted were seduced by Sidious himself and not the Dark Side, which frankly just isn’t true,
Sidious corrupts.
Sauron is corruption itself.
This is what each character is on a metaphorical level. And it’s why Sauron is the clear winner here.
Mother Talzin was a Dothramic witch who did her own thing. I dont remember Palps having any influence there
@Admiral Lee Hung Morgotg/Melkor is the source of all corruption. So much so that Middle earth (and valinor) is refereed to as “Morgoth‘s ring” due to his long standing influence. Likewise Sauron briefly repented and had noble reasons at his core — Tolkien used this to differentiate between the Nihilism of Melkor and the chaotic madness of Sauron.
@Admiral Lee Hung Morgotg/Melkor is the source of all corruption. So much so that Middle earth (and valinor) is refereed to as “Morgoth‘s ring” due to his long standing influence.
Well sure, but by the time Sauron is reigning, almost no one remembers who Morgoth was. Morgoth also tried to conquer Middle Earth via military means, whereas Sauron tried to conquer Middle Earth through corruption and magic trickery and such.
The first great evil brought armies and war and such,
And the second great evil twisted the hearts and minds of men to his favor.
Morgoth was a bringer of war and death.
Sauron tried to take over by corrupting people, and I think he is a far better metaphor for corruption than Morgoth was.
Well, here is a very quick summation of why Sauron wins this:
From a story perspective, Sidious is a villain who sometimes corrupts, sometimes deceives, and sometimes kills people.
From a story perspective, Sauron is corruption itself. Or at least, Sauron invented the means through which corruption itself occurs inside Middle Earth because of Sauron and his machinations. Kings of Kingshave had their minds corrupted by him. Falling prey to Sauron’s influence is an inevitability for every man, and it is only through constant and diligent resistance to his will that you can hope to die peacefully before his influence invades your mind.
Sidious has little on that. He is ultimately just a man, albeit a very powerful one. There are people within the Star Wars ethos who would never fall victim to his influence or temptation. That does not apply to Sauron. Everyone will fall to him eventually when exposed to him and his schemings.
Sauron is far more than that.
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I also want to address every individual you said Sauron corrupted and explain why he actually didn’t corrupt half of them:
Anyways when I was listing people, I stated people Sidious corrupted or manipulated. You kind of just disregarded the "or manipulated" part of my post and assumed everyone I listed was due to corruption. The reason I included manipulation is because Sidious doesn't have a magically ability to mind control people like Sauron does. Personally, I think including Sidious manipulation abilities and his charming and seductive personality is fair game because otherwise then there is no point to his thread, as seen by the 0-5 poll before I posted. The opening poster can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I choose to interpret this thread.
You are already starting off on a heavily debatable note, as any individual’s family is likely to support their own family members regardless of what path they choose. Parents will hide their children’s murder victims. Did Palpatine actually corrupt his family who already saw him as a prodigy and a genius anyway?
Sidious's father hated him and told him to his face that he wished he was dead, Palpatine's family didn't support him. Palpatine's childhood consists of him deliberately ruining his father's political career, getting away with it constantly, and then murdering his entire family.
What? Plagueis was Palpatine’s Master and formal instructor in the ways of the Dark Side. If anything, it was Plagueis who corrupted Palpatine who still knew little of the force when he met Dark Lord Plagueis.
I'm saying that Sidious manipulated Plagius like a pawn, not corrupted him. Before I explain, I just want to say that Plagueis never actually corrupted Sidious. Sidious was interested in joining the sith before he even met Plagieus, and was already collecting sith artifacts before hands. This is why I said in my previous post that Sidious has never been corrupted by anyone.
As for how Sidious manipulated Plagieus? Well Sidious' goal from Day 1 was to find a sith master to learn from, kill said master, and then become the new master. Plagieus' goal was to find an apprentice, teach said apprentice all his secrets, discover the secret to immortality, and then rule the galaxy with his apprentice forever. It was Sidious who achieved his goal, while Plagiues failed. And while Plagieus was electrocuting his master to death, he was laughing in his face telling him how he was using his master as a pawn since Day 1.
Let’s get something straight about Dooku: Dooku lost faith in the Republic itself and was seduced by the Dark Side of the force, not Sidious. Dooku would’ve joined the first Dark Lord he laid eyes on by that point in his life. Sidious just so happened to be the only one in the galaxy.
Why are you separating the dark side from Sidious? It's like if a guy received a titty pic from a woman and was later then seduced by siad girl, only to then later claim that it was the titty pic who turned him on and not the girl herself. Or if someone made a Mihawk vs Akainu and said Mihawk slashes Akainu instantly, and someone else replies that it's Mihawk's haki that slashed Akainu, not Mihawk himself.
The dark side belongs to Sidious just as much as the pair of titties belong to a woman just as much as Mihawk's haki belongs to Mihawk. I assume this Sauron gentlemen is using some type of magical ability to control people and make them his slaves. Are we going to seperate Sauron's mind control ability from Sauron and give all the credit to Sauron's mind control ability instead? It's a part of his toolbox and it's fair game.
Another issue I have with this thought process is that you're completely disregarding Sidious charismatic, manipulative, and charming personality that we have seen time and time again during his long and successful political career. And it is completely unfair just disregard Sidious most dangerous ability (his personality) and give all the credit to the dark side and say that any Sith Lord could have done the same. There's zero evidence that another Sith Lord could have seduced Dooku the way Sidious did. Perhaps if Dooku left the Jedi Order and then went out searching for the Sith, then you would have a point. But that's not what happened. Count Dooku went back to his homeland and went to live out his life as a wealthy man and then he was approached by Sidious. And it's Sidious charming and manipulating personality that turned Dooku into his pawn. There's no reason to assume another Sith would have succeeded in turning Dooku into their pawn. Losing faith in the republic does not equal bending over and willing to be a pawn for every Sith Lord in existence.
Idk who this chick is so I’ll give you that one lol.
A woman that was a very talented shaman and Sidious was interested in learning about her abilities. He then lied to her stating that he would make her his apprentice. He then learnt her secrets and then kidnapped her son (Darth Maul). Basically he lied to her and used her to get what he wanted and she's been bitter at the Sith ever since.
I’m only familiar with the original Legends Maul and not the crap Disney Maul, but the Maul I know was kidnapped by Sidious at birth and raised in Sith tradition. That’s not corruption, that’s just parenting lol.
I don't think it was at birth, but yes it was a young age. Sidious kidnapped Maul and raised him to be a Sith assassin that would 100% be loyal to him and obey him without question. I don't see why that can't be considered corruption in all honesty.
Grievous in the Legends (the real canon, lets be real) was completely 100% no exceptions, trained and corrupted by Dooku. Not Sidious.
I didn't say Grievous was trained or corrupted by Sidious. He was manipulated though, considering that Sidious continued to use him as a pawn even after Dooku's death for his own selfish goals. Also I find it interesting that you said Grievious was trained and corrupted by Dooku, but won't admit that Dooku was trained and corrupted by Sidious. Dooku may have gotten his original training from the Jedi, but he got further training from Sidious after.
They followed him out of fear. If you consider that corruption than be my guest lol. Sauron literally invaded the minds of his enemies. He didn’t rule them by fear, he seduced them with his majesty and power.
And here is where our biggest source of conflicts resides, how we both have chosen to interpret this thread. We have both chosen to interpret the thread in very different ways. I choose to interpret it as how each character brings people to their side and uses them as pawns regardless of the method and approach that they take. You have chosen interpret it as having the magical ability to corrupt and mind control > convincing someone to be your pawn through other means. The problem with your interpretation is that only one character in this thread has the magical ability to control people and that's Sauron, which then automatically makes this a stomp thread. So then what's the point of this thread? I'd like for the opening poster to clarify.
But yes, onto the topic of fear. Yes they did choose to start the biggest war the galaxy has ever seen because they were afraid of Sidious. Sidious doesn't have the ability to magically mind control people so I don't see the issue with him manipulating and controlling people with other methods just as fear, lies, manipulation, ect ect.
Sidious deceived the Republic and changed its Democracy to an Empire through politics. Corruption? Not in the same sense that Sauron literally re-wrote the will of his enemies.
I don't think Sidious corrupted the Republic, I think he manipulated the Republic into fighting a war and slowly killing off the Jedi one by one while also simultaneously giving him more governmental power. As for your "Sauron re-wrote the will of enemies" comment, I elaborated above that we are interpreting the thread differently. Sauron got people to obey him and serve by using a magical ability. Sidious got people to obey him and serve him through other methods. I don't see why one method is inferior than the other. This thread makes very little sense if the one who got people to obey him through magical ability automatically wins, unless it was purposely supposed to be a stomp thread.
Yeah definitely not. Sidious destroyed the Jedi, he didn’t corrupt any of them but Anakin.
I'm not saying Sidious corrupted the Jedi, I'm saying he manipulated them like pawns to do his bidding. Like the countless Jedi who died throughout the clone wars, or all the Jedi and soldiers that rush to save Sidious when he got kidnapped by the Separatists. They were his pawns.
Probably the most honest example of Sidious corrupting someone, but even then Anakin was seduced by the promise of the power to save Padme, not necessarily Sidious himself.
You just disregarded 95% Sidious and Anakin's interactions that took place from the first movie to the third. Sidious was grooming Anakin way before he said he had the power to save Padme. Ever since Anakin moved to Coruscant, Sidious has been by his side being friendly and acting as a mentor and father figure for the boy. Sidious would visit Anakin at the Jedi Temple regularly and Anakin would always have someone to talk to whenever he was feeling alienated by the other kids in the Jedi temple because he advanced much more quickly than them. Sidious constantly had Anakin facing powerful sith opponents to allow Anakin to tap into his inner darkness/hatred/rage, it's not a coincidence that Anakin crossed blades with so many red light sabers throughout the clone wars. Which then led to Sidious ordering Anakin to kill Dooku. And then there are the popular theories of Sidious himself being the one to plant the visions of Anakin's mom dying and Padme dying into Anakin himself, both visions led to actions that pushed Anakin even closer to the dark side.
That’s the thing with Sidious, the people he corrupts are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force, not Sidious himself.
The people Mihawk slash are slashed by Mihawk's haki, not Mihawk himself. Already elaborated why trying to separate Sidious from his own abilities and to completely disregard Sidious's personality isn't fair.
The people Sauron corrupts literally devote their entire existence to Sauron himself.
And the Jedi and soldiers risking their lives to save Sidious from kidnapping aren't devoting their existence to Sidious? The republic giving him more and more power aren't devoting their life to Sidious? The Separatists doing anything he wants aren't devoting their life to Sidious? Dooku and Maul doing whatever Sidious wants aren't devoting their life to Sidious? All these people have risked their lives multiple times for Sidious, if that's not a life devotion then I don't know what is.
Eveb if we go out on a limb and assume the ones Sidious corrupted were seduced by Sidious himself and not the Dark Side, which frankly just isn’t true,
You're declaring Sauron the winner because he has an ability to mind control (the irony being you try to give take credit away from Sidious and give all of it the credit to his dark side ability), but that doesn't make Sauron the clear winner here. As far as I can see, both characters happened to have gotten the majority of characters in their respective universe to obey them and follow them through very different methods, that doesn't make one method better than the other, and if that is the case, then what was the purpose of this thread where only one character has the ability to mind control and re-write wills?
Not to mention, the opening poster's exact words were "Which character can corrupt the other? " so I am not sure why you're discussing the metaphorical level of corruption and what that has to do with the thread in all honesty. So can Sauron corrupt Sidious? I don't know, I don't read Lord of the Rings. He seems to have a mind control ability. And the force seems to be a logical counter to mind invasions. Not sure how their respective abilities would stack up against each other. The opening poster then asked who's more wicked and sinister. I think what Sidious has done plenty of wicked and sinister acts to be honest. Has Sauron done more wicked and sinister things? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't get why you're only focusing on corruption (and the metaphor of corruption to boot), and deciding the winner with only that when the opening poster clearly asked for so much more.
Overall though, I think you misunderstood my post when you thought every person I was listing was corruption when I said it could be corruption or manipulation at the beginning of my post. I also think you're assuming we both interpreted the opening post in the same way. Overall, I don't really know what Sauron can do so I'm not even arguing that Sidious necessarily wins, I just thought Sidious was being underestimated and I disagreed with some of the comments made about Sidious in this thread and I wanted to bring up some points in his defense. Not interested in arguing about this any more since a debate where I don't know the other character is weird and a bit pointless.
I'm saying that Sidious manipulated Plagius like a pawn, not corrupted him. Before I explain, I just want to say that Plagueis never actually corrupted Sidious. Sidious was interested in joining the sith before he even met Plagieus, and was already collecting sith artifacts before hands. This is why I said in my previous post that Sidious has never been corrupted by anyone.
As for how Sidious manipulated Plagieus? Well Sidious' goal from Day 1 was to find a sith master to learn from, kill said master, and then become the new master. Plagieus' goal was to find an apprentice, teach said apprentice all his secrets, discover the secret to immortality, and then rule the galaxy with his apprentice forever. It was Sidious who achieved his goal, while Plagiues failed. And while Plagieus was electrocuting his master to death, he was laughing in his face telling him how he was using his master as a pawn since Day 1.
Since the Rule of two the goal has been always : one master and one apprentice.
2 solutions : if the apprentice is good he will want to overthrow the master and will kill him or beat him, if the apprentice is bad you dump him and take another.
There is no trust in a master-apprentice relationship.
Palpat did a very good job but it was just the tradition he didn't do something original here.
"Which character can corrupt the other? " so I am not sure why you're discussing the metaphorical level of corruption and what that has to do with the thread in all honesty. So can Sauron corrupt Sidious? I don't know, I don't read Lord of the Rings.
This is a Gandalf quote you can describe Sauron and the One.
Gandalf :
"Let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning."
If Palpatine knows the One existence I don't see how he can't resist stealing it/taking it by force. It represent everything Palpat lust for and the ring is designed especially to corrupt the people who seek more power. Palpatine is the perfect target. He will be the ideal friend for the ring and be very powerful with it but the One has only one master and wants to find him again. Palpatine even if he knows how to destroy the ring would never do it, he will want to keep it for himself and will cherish him. He can resist a long time before being completely crazy because Palpat mind is strong but Sauron will always be there and will corrupt him slowly but surely.
Anyways when I was listing people, I stated people Sidious corrupted or manipulated. You kind of just disregarded the "or manipulated" part of my post and assumed everyone I listed was due to corruption
Yeah I guess I disregarded that lol. The official definition I googled for “corruption” includes manipulation so maybe this is fair game. Still though, I think what Sidious does to manipulate people is inherently inferior to what Sauron did to the Nazgul but I’ll elaborate more later.
I think including Sidious manipulation abilities and his charming and seductive personality is fair game because otherwise then there is no point to his thread
It is fair game, but the topic is also one sided imo. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the thread should be locked just because it might be one-sided, one sided topics can still be fun lol. But I hope you’ll agree by the end of my post that such trickery is inherently inferior to what Sauron does to people.
Sidious's father hated him and told him to his face that he wished he was dead, Palpatine's family didn't support him. Palpatine's childhood consists of him deliberately ruining his father's political career, getting away with it constantly, and then murdering his entire family.
As for how Sidious manipulated Plagieus? Well Sidious' goal from Day 1 was to find a sith master to learn from, kill said master, and then become the new master. Plagieus' goal was to find an apprentice, teach said apprentice all his secrets, discover the secret to immortality, and then rule the galaxy with his apprentice forever. It was Sidious who achieved his goal, while Plagiues failed. And while Plagieus was electrocuting his master to death, he was laughing in his face telling him how he was using his master as a pawn since Day 1.
This isn’t giving enough credit to Plagueis or the understood norms of the “Rule of Two” as @RayanOO mentioned earlier. Plagueis may have been a unique Sith in his goals and the role he wanted Sidious to play in those goals, but Plagueis was no fool. He knew full well that the role of the Apprentice is to surpass and kill the Master (Plagueis murdered his own Master), and I don’t think Plagueis was ever under the assumption that Sidious was actually truly loyal to him or his plans.
@Buusatan94 can weight in on this one too probably.
Why are you separating the dark side from Sidious? It's like if a guy received a titty pic from a woman and was later then seduced by siad girl, only to then later claim that it was the titty pic who turned him on and not the girl herself. Or if someone made a Mihawk vs Akainu and said Mihawk slashes Akainu instantly, and someone else replies that it's Mihawk's haki that slashed Akainu, not Mihawk himself.
Okay so this is a good point to explain what makes Sauron and Sidious fundamentally different.
What Sidious is, is a mortal man who utilizes the Dark Side of the Force in a variety of ways. All of his power originates from the Force and he would inherently have no or little power without it. All of Sidious’ power comes from how he influences and utilizes the force itself.
Sauron is the power itself. He is a godlike entity and the source of the greatest evil in Middle Earth (now that a Morgoth is long gone). You can’t really compare a mortal practicing magic (Sidious) to a God who is himself the source of magic (Sauron).
Here is why I believe Sauron to be far more broken than Sidious in terms of corrupting people:
1.
So Sauron decides he wants to conquer all of Middle Earth. This includes the Men, the Elves, the Dwarves, etc. all of it. But here’s the problem: Sauron’s old master and mentor Morgoth, already tried to do that and failed. Morgoth amassed an Army more powerful than any army Sauron would ever amass, tried to conquer the entire world militaristically, and failed. He was defeated by all of the above forces.
So Sauron essentially realizes that if Morgoth could never conquer Middle Earth, then neither could he. Morgoth was essentially more powerful than Sauron and stood a much better chance at conquering the world than Sauron did.
So instead of raising an army to conquer Middle Earth, Sauron takes peace with his enemies and offers them all Rings as a token of this peace. Only the Kings of Men accept the Rings.
Keep in mind, the Kings of Men were the ones who fought against Morgoth, and as one of Morgoth’s right hand men, none of them trusted Sauron, but they also weren’t going to refuse a peace offering from him.
Turns out, Sauron corrupted the rings with his magic which in turn corrupted the hearts of the Kings who accepted them, and they became Sauron’s puppets. The Nine Kings of Men became the Nine Ring Wraiths (Nazgul) who were effectively slaves to Sauron and would later lead his armies.
These were his mortal enemies who had previously raised armies against Sauron and his Master, and Sauron literally turned them into his slaves.
2.
This is where Sauron’s hype and power get truly insane:
So look at this creature right here:
This creature is known as a Balrog, and in terms of strength, there are literally no beings beneath Gods who are more powerful than them. Only Dragons themselves can compare to Balrogs in terms of combat strength in Middle Earth. Morgoth had an army of these creatures back in the day.
If I had to rank them in comparison to Star Wars figures, it would probably take multiple Jedi Masters to defeat a single Balrog. Just my opinion. Anyway:
In one of the coolest displays ever, Gandalf the Grey, who is a literal Demi-God, fights the Balrog for 7 days and nights straight and ultimately kills the thing before succumbing to wounds so brutal that he himself dies.
If you want to watch:
The important thing to note here is that Gandalf = Balrog, and imo Balrog = multiple Jedi Masters at once. Just my opinion lol.
Now Gandalf is a powerful Wizard but Gandalf’s Master is more powerful than he is. Gandalf’s Master is Saruman the White, and he literally defeats Gandalf in combat near the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring (my favorite movie ever, fun fact lol).
So Saruman is probably > Balrogs or >= to Balrogs.
Now, after Sauron corrupts the Nine Kings like I mentioned earlier, Saruman starts researching ways to stop Sauron.
And after said research, Saruman comes to the conclusion that Sauron himself is so unstoppably powerful that Middle Earth’s only option is to accept Sauron’s rule and pray that he spares them after he rules the entire world. So Saruman devotes his entire existence to Sauron lol.
Do you see why I think Sauron is more powerful than Sidious after reading this? Sauron is not a fighter really. He can fight but he conquers through corruption and such.
I’m bastardizing the stories but I’m giving you a cliff notes lol.
I assume this Sauron gentlemen is using some type of magical ability to control people and make them his slaves. Are we going to seperate Sauron's mind control ability from Sauron and give all the credit to Sauron's mind control ability instead? It's a part of his toolbox and it's fair game.
The difference is that Sauron IS the magic. Sidious is a practitioner of magic, while Sauron is a literal god from which the power originates. And sure I guess this doesn’t mean that Sauron himself is more powerful or corrupting than Sidious, but it speaks to his overwhelming resume that I’ve mentioned earlier lol.
I think it’s highly implied that any Sith who hated the Republic could’ve seduced Dooku there man. Dooku was just after more power, he didn’t care who that came from I don’t think. Not to downplay Sidious but I really think Dooku was prepped to become a Sith Lord regardless of who the Dark Lord was.
Sidious kidnapped Maul and raised him to be a Sith assassin that would 100% be loyal to him and obey him without question. I don't see why that can't be considered corruption in all honesty.
It’s fundamentally inferior to Sauron’s feats of corruption. Turning lifelong enemies into your slaves >> raising auncorrupted child into your beliefs.
I choose to interpret it as how each character brings people to their side and uses them as pawns regardless of the method and approach that they take. You have chosen interpret it as having the magical ability to corrupt and mind control > convincing someone to be your pawn through other means.
It’s fair to interpret Sidious’ feats as corruption in the way you described, but I think at this point you can see why I believe Sauron’s are superior.
Yes they did choose to start the biggest war the galaxy has ever seen because they were afraid of Sidious. Sidious doesn't have the ability to magically mind control people so I don't see the issue with him manipulating and controlling people with other methods just as fear, lies, manipulation, ect ect.
That’s not what happened. The Trade Federation did not start a war with the Republic. The very first time the Trade Federation took military action against the Republic at Naboo, the Republic literally did not even have a military (don’t ask me why) and Naboo was literally being protected by a bunch of volunteers.
For the next 10 years, the Federation was simply using their giant droid army to bully the army-less Republic until the Republic pulled an army from its ass on Geonosis, and proceeded to kick the shit out of the Federation for the next 3 years.
The Federation did not go to war for Sidious, they picked on a defenseless republic for him.
You just disregarded 95% Sidious and Anakin's interactions that took place from the first movie to the third. Sidious was grooming Anakin way before he said he had the power to save Padme. Ever since Anakin moved to Coruscant, Sidious has been by his side being friendly and acting as a mentor and father figure for the boy. Sidious would visit Anakin at the Jedi Temple regularly and Anakin would always have someone to talk to whenever he was feeling alienated by the other kids in the Jedi temple because he advanced much more quickly than them. Sidious constantly had Anakin facing powerful sith opponents to allow Anakin to tap into his inner darkness/hatred/rage, it's not a coincidence that Anakin crossed blades with so many red light sabers throughout the clone wars. Which then led to Sidious ordering Anakin to kill Dooku. And then there are the popular theories of Sidious himself being the one to plant the visions of Anakin's mom dying and Padme dying into Anakin himself, both visions led to actions that pushed Anakin even closer to the dark side.
And yet, it was ultimately the promise of the power to save Padme which corrupted Anakin, not Sidious. Hell Vader in Revenge of the Sith ultimately told Padme that she should join him and he would overthrow Sidious. And 20 years later he told Luke the same thing. Hard for me to believe that Sidious truly corrupted Anakin into his service when Anakin openly talked about overthrowing him at least twice. Even Sauron’s enemies think that defeating him is hopeless.
I think this is a fun thread regardless of if Sauron one sidedly wins lol. Just me personally.
But hopefully by now you see why I think Sauron is objectively more powerful and corrupting than Sidious. When Saruman, who can defeat any Jedi Knight, knows that he can’t defeat Sauron and raises an army of 10,000 in his name to earn Sauron’s favor lol.
This match is probably a big spite. Sauron is a Maia which created Middleearth and the whole (very small) Universe. Lorewise Sauron must be a Universe character-but I highly doubt it. Sauron was unable to destroy Gondor or Rivendell (or other enemies of him),vene in his prime.
I would say,if we count Universe Sauron Papa Palp lose poorly,otherwise Palpatine wipe the floor with Sauron after he close his Villains Pub.
Sidious may be more intelligent and competent as a strategist but his evil power is still much below Sauron's who can magically corrupt and influence any people of Middle-Earth not named Tom Bombadil.
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