Character Discussion Monster Trio Nomore - Monster Duo & GOAT Duo

#61
Yamato is doing decently against Kaido but she will likely fall soon with Luffy jumping in. One of the best case scenarios for her is that she simply helps Luffy striking down Kaido but that is unlikely and there are better odds Zoro kicks in once he is done with King. Furthermore, what Zoro displayed on the rooftop was indeed gigantic, definitely placing him on Kaido's ballapark considering the way he tackled Hakai and how potent that attack was compared to Thunder Bagua, how massive his AP is whilst healthy in particular, his haki combat speed and also reflexes he displayed against both Dragon and Hybrid Kaido. I really typed so many essays on the subject matter. xd
Yeah i get that you considered island-level Hakai as an amazing feat, but Zoro had been able to do mountain-level sword attacks yet not being able to stop a few island-busting strings from Doflamingo. While Luffy oneshot God Threads which is massively superior than an island buster. Hakai, is a big attack. Luffy said it's big in AoE but not mentioning its strength. Luffy, Dofla, Fuji had to be serious to use island-level attacks, but for Kaidou, releasing island-level attacks is cake. He doesn't even need to hit the island directly, just the wind will do. Receiving the dispersed AoE wind from a club strike, doesn't compare to receiving a club strike directly at all. Hakai had no CoC Coating black lightning while Three World Ragnarok which Kaidou directly hit Luffy with had those, signifying superiority and concentrated attack power. Yet Luffy almost had no damage from Ragnarok even if it was so much more concentrated and direct contact compared to wide dispersed AoE the wind from Hakai had, while Zoro couldn't receive direct contact from Thunder Bagua, showing the expected result that if he couldn't stand an indirect attack, then receiving a single direct attack was much worse for him, even the attack was divided to hit Zoro and Law.

But Yamato standing her ground to fight Kaidou for so long, showed that she is comfortable fighting his own dad for an extended time period. It's just not comparable to have the WSC trained you all your life, and the result showed.

That's my view on this, as you see we have different views as usual lol
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

N-notice me Rayan-senpai
#63
For the longest time I've been contemplating whether Zoro fits in with any of the right hand man "First Mate" parallels we've had so far.

Rayleigh - tactical & intelligent
Beckman - tactical & intelligent
Killer - tactical & intelligent


These are the confirmed right hand men of the most relevant captains of the series. Zoro to me doesn't fit their vibe, yes he has similar traits as some of them and in particular with Rayleigh and him having mirror scars. Now to be clear I'm not saying that Zoro isn't the right hand man to Luffy, he 100% is.. I'm saying he simply doesn't fit the parallel of a typical "first mate" that major pirates in OP-verse have. I'm probably confusing y'all a bit here, so let me try to lay it out more cleaner:


Which crew fits the Roger pirates mold the best? Not the strawhats but Kidd Pirates.

Kidd pirates & Roger Pirates (maybe Red-hair Pirates too):

-> Only Killer & Rayleigh refer to their captain with the Captain's first name
-> Rest of the crew refers to the Captain as "Captain", even if they're top dogs of the crew.
-> Killer & Heat share a similar role as Rayleigh-Gaban:

-> Killer & Rayleigh are in it for just to support their captain. Similar to Ben Beckman. Rayleigh as showcased with the whole strategizing with Luffy's training and the plan of going to MF to send the message to the crew, the dude is very tactical. Just as Beckman and Killer are highlighted for their intelligence being superior to their captain.

Like Kidd Pirates & Roger pirates are essentially copies of each other in crew structure, I'm assuming Red-haired pirates are similar as well if Lucky Roux "the fighter" of the crew has a similar relationship to Ray-Gaban/Killer-Heat, with Ben Beckman. Because Heat similar to Gaban is always in the background and rarely made a "focus", unlike Killer & Ray who are often highlighted alongside their captains.


Compared to that, let's look at the strawhats:

- Zoro has an ambition on par with his captain, which neither of the other do
- Zoro's will to live/willpower has often paralleled his captain's (Arlong shook at Zoro's face when near death - Smoker shook at Luffy's face when near death. Zoro taking on all of Luffy's pain by Kuma - Luffy going through that process with Ivankov.)
- He didn't join the crew putting the captain first, but something he eventually evolved into. Something opposite of Rayleigh/Killer from what we know.
- Include the times he, an underling, been stated to be somebody who could be the captain.

But see despite that, I was actually on board with Zoro = Rayleigh, Sanji = Gaban... for a long while, until Wano recently, where something Oda has been building up really struck me. Now this build up really got highlighted during Sabody. You see what happens during Sabody is that Zoro nearly takes out a Celestial Dragon, and then Luffy near the end punches a Celestial Dragon. But then when it came for the "right hand men" of the supernovas to step in, the person who stepped in wasn't Zoro, despite him being there as well. Instead the person who Oda chose to bring in was:





Then after this Fishman Island happened where Oda had Sanji team up with a person who was a captain of his own crew and a renowned infamous pirate. Initially I was like I guess Oda is making it clear Sanji ain't in the same league as Luffy/Zoro. But no rather Oda was hinting at something else:

Then from there we moved on to WCI, where in the absence of Luffy/Zoro/Sanji we had a person who took up the mantle of leadership and lead the strawhats that were on the ship... Jinbei. Originally, just dismissed this as "well Jinbei is the helmsmen so it makes sense he takes charge when they're on the seas in a chase like that".

But then we came into Wano... and Oda dropped this panel:

Now I didn't realize it back then when the panel dropped, but then when I recently reread this panel, I was like... hmmm must be deja vu could've sworn I saw a panel like this before.. waiit waiit wait wait... :

Two dudes annoyed - shoulder to shoulder - sending two people flying on the side. For me it became clear that Oda is establishing two duos. The duo with Luffy-Zoro & duo with Jinbei & Sanji which will be like Gaban-Rayleigh/Heat-Killer/ Beckman - Roux?? It also becomes clear when Luffy & Zoro are beefing with Kaido, while the other two are handling the underlings, with Sanji being more prominent in clashing with the calamities already, while Jinbei taking on the weaker F7.

Because originally I remember people used to claim (including myself), for future powerlevel purposes:

Roger = Shanks = Luffy
Rayleigh = Mihawk = Zoro
Gaban = Beckman = Sanji

However, this is fell apart with Ben Beckman's vivre card stating he's entity comparable to Shanks. Just as Rayleigh The DARK KING was an entity comparable to Roger the PIRATE KING. So it would be more accurate to say (if we really want to compare Roger pirates-Strawhat pirates):

Roger = Shanks = Luffy
Rayleigh = Beckman = Sanji
Gaban = Roux? = Jinbei

Zoro being a complete anomaly. Now yes Zoro is the right hand man to Luffy as Rayleigh/Killer/Beckman are to their respective captains, but that's really about it. Because to be honest for me the strawhats aren't really comparable with the Roger pirates & Red-hair pirates, and as pointed out earlier Kidd Pirates are the proper comparison for Roger & Red Hair pirates, rather than the strawhats.


So in short:
EoS Jinbei > Gaban,
EoS Sanji > Rayleigh,
EoS Zoro > Roger,
EoS Luffy > Roger



PS: For anyone that might comment "this is just another Zoro wank thread"... umm it's really not, just me analyzing how Oda is breaking up from the "M3" concept and focusing on the duos now. And how Sanji will actually be pretty close to Luffy-Zoro at EoS, as Rayleigh /Beckman are to their captains.



Anywho let me know your opinions on this. :beckmoji:



Disclaimer: This could all be wrong if Jinbei stops progressing after this arc. But it's hard to imagine that, I feel that Jinbei might become the first 1st top tier (low top tier) fishmen.
This is a very well written post, but if it was true, we'd be getting Jinbe and Sanji vs King and Queen instead of Zoro and Sanji vs King and Queen.
 
Top