General & Others Oda has had the Sun God planned out since Pre TS

#21
No shit.
Nobody is contesting the fact that Luffy was planned to become the new Nika/Sun God. What people have an issue with is how the transition happened and the effects this had both on Luffy's personality (no more nuance, just nonstop laughter) and on the story itself (90% of cast now simping for him), when not on the very fight quality (= diminishing to close-to-zero tension).
To put it simple:
Most readers would've swallowed down an even bigger retcon than Gomu Gomu = Nika Nika, had it not turned Luffy retarded.
If everything you said is not for your agenda,

I clearly ask you, where do you expect the tension from the fight in this arc to come from?

We all see that the villains in this arc are not that strong, and Luffy is now an Emperor.

That is why he low-diffs everyone in this arc.

There is no one at Kaido's level who can fight him toe to toe.

If you hate the OP MC genre, that's fine, but don't beguile others because of your taste.
 
#22
Awakening was fine, it was a shonen power up when they are at the weakest.
Oda refusing to give hints makes feel this as a retcon.
I can agree that he might have planned it, but COMPLETE lack of foreshadowing makes it look like a retcon.
Naah, problem is that the route that Oda chose actually break story overall.

Why people didn't have any problem when Goku became Super Sayajin? Because before there was clear foreshadowing about him not be a human at all. It was even stated clearly. This is why he was able to defeate Piccalo Daimao. This is why he was strongest, case he wasn't a human.

While with Nika fruit revelation a lot of problems going on, such as Gorosei who didn't do a thing to Luffy even knowing that he has unawakened Nika. This makes zero sence. And Oda with flashback even ruined the posibility of normal explanation.

For example if Nika could became any other fruit after awakening, and just choice Luffy's fruit - this is one thing, and that would be much better then what happened in manga. Basically that could mean with Gomu awakened powers Luffy got also power of warping reality.

But in flashback we learned that Nika was similar to Gomu Gomu. So how that could Gorosei and Imu didn't do a thing before? Also they didn't even mention Luffy's fruit before Wano.

So this is why I'm saying that Nika fruit makes no sence in terms of story.

Luffy's awakening could actually look the same, he even could be this sun god, but Gorosei shouldn't feared of him in Wano, if that was the case.

This is why Nika fruit awakening is example of really bad writening.
 
#24
What people utterly fail to realize, is that there is different types of foreshadowing. Some are straight forward and can give readers the opportunity to observe where the story is going, and others are tiny indirect clues that can only be viewed in hindsight.

Most people are so conditioned to the first type of foreshadowing that they don't even understand that other types exists. They think that if it's not spelled out and in your face, then it's not foreshadowing. That is false.

While the fact that the Gomu Gomu no Mi doesn't have any kind of foreshadowing to being a different devil fruit, the abilities that Luffy has gained via awakening, does.

Look at all the zany, and wacky ways Luffy has used his Devil Fruit throughout the story. Constantly he has done things with his rubber body, that shouldn't even be possible. It was all about his creativity, and how he was able to manipulate himself to achieve these things.

Then we come to find out, that Devil Fruits are born from the desires of others. In other words, creating a Devil Fruit, is basically a means to turn the impossible into reality. That's technically what Luffy has been doing this entire time. Not just with his devil fruit ability, but throughout the miracles him and the Straw Hats have created, by the impossible obstacles they've overcome.

After observing this for years, it turns out that Luffy's Devil Fruit, when awakened, has the ability to turn the impossible into reality. It flows perfectly with the theme of the story, and it's been happening this entire time. The thing is, is can only be picked up on in hindsight. But with this fandom everything is just a coincidence.

And who knows, maybe the concept of "Nika the Sun God" really was added in after the fact that Oda realized giving the Gomu Gomu no Mi reality bending abilities with just awakening wouldn't make much sense. But in hindsight, it's pretty clear that the Gomu Gomu no Mi's awakening was moving in the direction to do exactly what it does now.
 
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#26
The foreshadowing comes maybe the most from villains’ reactions to Luffy’s fruit. Especially Doflamingo questioning how can rubber behave like that when Luffy used G4.
 
#27
If everything you said is not for your agenda,

I clearly ask you, where do you expect the tension from the fight in this arc to come from?

We all see that the villains in this arc are not that strong, and Luffy is now an Emperor.

That is why he low-diffs everyone in this arc.

There is no one at Kaido's level who can fight him toe to toe.

If you hate the OP MC genre, that's fine, but don't beguile others because of your taste.
What agenda am I pushing when I say that Luffy laughing at all times is irritating?
 
#28
Naah, problem is that the route that Oda chose actually break story overall.

Why people didn't have any problem when Goku became Super Sayajin? Because before there was clear foreshadowing about him not be a human at all. It was even stated clearly. This is why he was able to defeate Piccalo Daimao. This is why he was strongest, case he wasn't a human.

While with Nika fruit revelation a lot of problems going on, such as Gorosei who didn't do a thing to Luffy even knowing that he has unawakened Nika. This makes zero sence. And Oda with flashback even ruined the posibility of normal explanation.

For example if Nika could became any other fruit after awakening, and just choice Luffy's fruit - this is one thing, and that would be much better then what happened in manga. Basically that could mean with Gomu awakened powers Luffy got also power of warping reality.

But in flashback we learned that Nika was similar to Gomu Gomu. So how that could Gorosei and Imu didn't do a thing before? Also they didn't even mention Luffy's fruit before Wano.

So this is why I'm saying that Nika fruit makes no sence in terms of story.

Luffy's awakening could actually look the same, he even could be this sun god, but Gorosei shouldn't feared of him in Wano, if that was the case.

This is why Nika fruit awakening is example of really bad writening.
Thesr is a big contradiction here.

Goku defeating Piccolo because he is a sayan and not a human is discovered volumes later, not during rhe fight. For the entirety of non Z dragonball goku is a kid with a tail, only sayan saga reveals the truth.
I am saying this because if you follow this logic, niks can be explained now after reveal and it would be the same.
 
#29
Goku defeating Piccolo because he is a sayan and not a human is discovered volumes later, not during rhe fight. For the entirety of non Z dragonball goku is a kid with a tail, only sayan saga reveals the truth.
No, when Goku fought Picalo Daimao he actually said that he has tail so he suppose to be not a human at all, plus when he drink that holy water, and unlock hidden potential, his Gorilla form appeared. Basically his potential based on Gorilla, which is form of sayajin.
am saying this because if you follow this logic, niks can be explained now after reveal and it would be the same.
Yes, Nika could make sence, like there was a moment when in Skypia every one pray to God, and the answer was in Luffy. But the problem is in whole perspective as Nika= Gomu Gomu.

If Gomu Gomu itself wasn't related to Nika fruit, that we be good thing. Like Nika can be awakened from any fruit in the world, which could explane why Gorosei wasn't able to find it. Instead of this it was stated that Nika= Gomu Gomu, so why Gorosei and Imu didn't do a thing at all?
 
#30
No, when Goku fought Picalo Daimao he actually said that he has tail so he suppose to be not a human at all, plus when he drink that holy water, and unlock hidden potential, his Gorilla form appeared. Basically his potential based on Gorilla, which is form of sayajin.

Yes, Nika could make sence, like there was a moment when in Skypia every one pray to God, and the answer was in Luffy. But the problem is in whole perspective as Nika= Gomu Gomu.

If Gomu Gomu itself wasn't related to Nika fruit, that we be good thing. Like Nika can be awakened from any fruit in the world, which could explane why Gorosei wasn't able to find it. Instead of this it was stated that Nika= Gomu Gomu, so why Gorosei and Imu didn't do a thing at all?
Goku had a tail, crilin had no nose and Piccolo was a demon.
Dragonball was a much sillier world where dogs were like people and even the king of the world was one.
I still believe it's a bad example and Goku being a Sayan is a retcon. It took 17 volumes and another entire saga for the retcon to happen, but Goku was no different than Tien having 3 eyes.
On the other point, i agree. NIKA being Gom Gom is silly and retarded. Even if Oda ends up explaining it properly it'd be too late.
 
#34
Obviously the Nika being the gomu gomu no mi thing is a retcon but Sun worship has been a prevalent theme throughout the story especially in nations which are tied to JoyBoy (Shandia, Elbaf, Buccaneers). Mother Caramel mentions the Sun God of Elbaf, Shandia worships the Sun God, Kuma’s bible has Sun imagery. You could even add the Sunlight tree eve from Fishmen Island if you’re really want to stretch.




It isn't a retcon by any sorts. When Shanks told him it was a rubber fruit, it limited Luffy to rubber like powers. Why would Shanks waste his time on a freaking rubber fruit? Why would a rubber man liberate the world? Only stupid and those limited intelligently would cry their ass about retcon. You don't understand the story = retcon? Clown arguement. Whatever happened in the entire story supports Luffy's fruit being special.
 
#35
It isn't a retcon by any sorts. When Shanks told him it was a rubber fruit, it limited Luffy to rubber like powers. Why would Shanks waste his time on a freaking rubber fruit? Why would a rubber man liberate the world? Only stupid and those limited intelligently would cry their ass about retcon. You don't understand the story = retcon? Clown arguement. Whatever happened in the entire story supports Luffy's fruit being special.
Shanks called it Gom Gom, and it was the only instance of a fruit origin being changed.
Gorosei were fully aware of it and did nothing to grab it.
They could have sent all their force. They could have gone and killed luffy in impel down.
Roger changed the world with no God Prophecy fruit.
Same Whitebeard.
 
#36
Ok, I've let people sh*t on this for too long now. Its time to stop

Most readers would've swallowed down an even bigger retcon than Gomu Gomu = Nika Nika, had it not turned Luffy retarded.
1. Only a minority has a problem with Luffy being Nika. A minority that just don't like things to evolve.

2. There are no retcon with the transformation of Luffy. Not in the nature of the fruit and not in the impact of the fruit either.

I love the fact that you guys are using storytelling words to discuss, but use the terms correctly.

Thanks.

Everything that was related to Nilka was only example of bad writing.
On the contrary.

It might be one of the best example of Oda's ability to create art through his story.


It wasn't planned at all. Oda just introduced some random God worshipping that feats the theme and later used it as Nika as we know.
It was most likely planned since the beginning of the story. Not in all details maybe, but the idea was their for sure.


Sun Gods are one of the most common motifs in all mythology. Nearly every culture has some variation of a sun deity: the Aztecs, Greeks, Egyptians, Nordics, Hindus, Incans, Japanese...etc. Oda using this incredibly common idea when he depicts religion, doesn't mean he planned for Nika.
The Skypiean Sun God is obviously different from Nika. They literally sacrificed humans to it on an altar as a form of worship, and they believed it took the form of a giant snake to eat people. How is it the same god as the warrior of liberation, who freed slaves and brought smiles to people's faces?
It was a reference to Aztec Mythology/culture, if anything. (Sacrificing people to give their blood as nourishment to the sun god, just like in Skypiea.)
Indeed, there are other evidences showing that this transformation was planned for a long LONG time.
the route that Oda chose actually break story overall.
Wrong. I fact, absolutely wrong.


While with Nika fruit revelation a lot of problems going on, such as Gorosei who didn't do a thing to Luffy even knowing that he has unawakened Nika.
Which can be explained easily


But in flashback we learned that Nika was similar to Gomu Gomu. So how that could Gorosei and Imu didn't do a thing before? Also they didn't even mention Luffy's fruit before Wano.
First reason: Again, this can be explained easily. In fact it was explained by the writer himself. They wouldn't have been able to get the fruit as the fruit ALWAYS happens to escape them. It seems to be in its nature to be free from their reach.

Second reason: Doing something would create a risk to create attention on the fruit. There was no reason to send CP to a random pirate and when it was the case, CP was too weak to do something. The admiral wouldve needed to put the admirals on the case which wouldve raised questions. And - once again - they wouldn't have been able to get the fruit anyway.

So their best deal is to do everything in order for the fruit not to awaken and therefore ignore AS POSSIBLE the threat of the bearer. Which is something that can't be done with Luffy who will naturally puts himself in danger and therefore better his capacities.

In short, with Luffy, the gorosei had no other choice but to watch Luffy awaken his fruit without them being able to do ANYTHING against it.

Also, its not like they consider the Sun God as the ultimate threat. They still consider him an insect as they probably defeated him once before during the void century.


So this is why I'm saying that Nika fruit makes no sence in terms of story.
Only for those who have a lack of understanding of the story.


Nika fruit awakening is example of really bad writening
Still no.


is that there is different types of foreshadowing.
Oh! Interesting. Someone actually know their stuff on this forum, coool !


Gomu Gomu no Mi doesn't have any kind of foreshadowing to being a different devil fruit
Actually he did, but its very subtle. Oda played with us on that line.


What agenda am I pushing when I say that Luffy laughing at all times is irritating?
The cynical agenda.


Why people didn't have any problem when Goku became Super Sayajin? Because before there was clear foreshadowing about him not be a human at all. It was even stated clearly. This is why he was able to defeate Piccalo Daimao. This is why he was strongest, case he wasn't a human.
What is funny is that there are a lot more qualitative forshadowings and plantings leading to Luffy's awakening than ones leading toward Goku SSJ. Super sayan in Dragon Ball is really the textbook example of basic foreshadowing. Its cool but its not ground breaking.

On the other hand, Luffy's awakening is foreshadowed and planted so much into the core of the story that it returns the story on its head. Its truly magnificient writing.

I'm not joking when I say that this transformation will still be teached in storytelling class in 200 years from now.


Nika could make sence
It IS making sence lol


Like Nika can be awakened from any fruit in the world
That would negate the storytelling principle of the transformation, being a extention of liberty applied to a fruit (Gomu, the ability to be whatever)
 
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