[FNZ] Role Madness One Piece East Blue Part One - Combined Pirate Crew & Bread Hunter Victory!
- Thread starter CakeWalker
- Start date
- Status
Ah yes! It is that time again, where people in confusion point fingers at each other and well, we all know where this will lead towards.
But I am different, I am pointing my finger to myself, with a wide wide grin on my face. "Yes, everything was my fault, I am the evil that shall be lynched..." - is what I said.
Joke aside, I think I am a very trashy coach, that I realized this time, I am not as witted as Osie for example, who has that eagle-eye and always the right questions in their mind. But because of that I know where I can work on myself and overall I have nice results to share.
Aye guys, for everyone who wants to learn some crazy stuff, listen tightly, because atp I can't promise how often this topic will come up in future, so be mindful here.
Cultural Differences
Me and Cake working together was a result of some more or less unlikeable conflicts and outcomes in a previous game. For betterment and integrity. Through the past weeks I got to know more about Cake and literally of the "school" she came from. It was the first time where I really realized that hosts will always end up differently, people evolve with their teachings, people evolve with their quirks and interests and that way different cultural standards get spotlighted with different communities and hosts. I also realized this alot after working together with Osie and learning about alot of mechanics/roles that he created, for example to complete an already existing branch of roles, like, e.g. the different versions of commuting or abilities from the bodyguard/hide branch.
As for Cake and me, we were further way culturally than I would have ever expected, but in order to work together I decided to fully embrace myself to Cake's vision and after checking the setup and clearing all rules, I only had to deal with one change that I wished for.
Helmeppo was three-shot bulletproof and at this point I want to use this to scold everyone who thinks it is a good idea to stack bulletproofs on the same role. There isno effort made to cast Bulletproof Vests and one Bulletproof Vest can result in a networth of one additional role for town. 1 life = 1 role. Not mechanicwise, but shotwise. Not only that, it is very frustrating to use "kill sponging" in mafia, because gameplay will have no relevancy anymore and in the end only one faction is suffering from frustration, that's the killing party.
I have already told this to Cake and the Helmeppo role was fixd up pre-game. I just want to make sure that something like that does not occur again, also with potential future newly hosts or veteran hosts that don't know about it. But once again: I am just advocating to stop bulletproof vest stacking, just to make games more consistent and rewarding.
Then oh boi, there was a Disguiser role that somehow caused some frustration in the mafia chat and dead chat. Especially mafia wasn't handling that one professionally, especially since the disguiser was even somehow helpful towards mafia in the gamestate back then.
As for people calling this "heavy bastardly", I can see why it is done and maybe there is an overall communitywork to be done here, in order to signalize that a setup may contain certain elements that temper with host results. After doing a bit of research, yeah I apologize for than one because I never hsoted a disguiser, at any rate, yeah that role can be slightly bastardish. Overall I think that Cake used one of the best versions possible for that role, a version that is the least on the bastard scale, and that is something that I also learned and may take as inspiration for future games. I think there is noone to blame here and I hope that that bit of steam that came from mafia and dead chat may get reconsidered and taken back, as both me and Cake are learning, especially if it comes to exotic roles.
So overall I saw potential in the setup, right from the beginning. It held some kind of different spice, especially with the cast and some exotic roles. Yeah, I was really eager to see how this would do and in later hindsight I actually realized something...me and Cake are not that different;
I always wanted to host a Baker setup but I never managed to fit one in timewise. Doing a Baker setup is just unknown ground for most of us, so in all honesty...this one was dearly needed and I am so glad that Cake has finally brought one Baker to our communities.
I personally knew about that role for like 2 or 3 years and I know a few others like @Adam ๐ also know about that role. So I am surprised that actually noone in this game came forward and said "yeah guys, we got a baker in this setup, this might be a baker game".
We are a raw bunch of people and I am pointing towards everyone here, also those that sit on the throne of the section @Ratchet
As for the final aspects of setup and hosting, the main difference that really crystallized throughout the game is the use of Action Resolutions.
This is the last time I want to say something funny regarding our hosting, maybe not funny, but more "ironic".
Cake thought she was using Natural Action Resolution but in reality she is using Linear Action Resolution. I had to giggle there as I was always aware there were different resolution types, but just recently in my Hell's Paradise Mafia game I had thoughtout discussion with Osie about different resolution types. I was able to gain massive intel on it and so I was able to explain Cake the differences between NaR and LaR and what exactly she is doing.
As I said previously, I never attempted to scold Cake into a direction to use something different and alter their vision, this was a full on Cake game and my job was to ensure that Cake knows what they are doing. And boi, I am sure that after this Cake truly knows what she is doing.
So as for those that hear about NaR and LaR for the first time, let me give you guys a crash course and why all of this came to be and why it is important to know about, to lable games correctly and to ensure that noone can shit on someone else for using something differently.
I will start with LaR. Linear Action Resolution is actually the most classic way to resolve actions. This one stems from some original older forum eras where roles were not as evolved as they are now. Not roles specifically but the way how roles can be countered.
In the example of Cake's LaR we use the following priority list, which usually should have the roles that act as "reactive counterplay" high up in the priority list. Hides, Commutes, Bus Drives fall in this category, with Blocks etc following up.
Let's say Rej roleblocks T-Pein who performs a Kill on HeWhoHasNoEqual, but Cake attempts to redirect Rej to another target.
In Linear Action Resolution you would order the action according to priorities and then resolve them one by one:
1. Rej Blocks T-Pein
2. Cake Redirects
3. T-Pein kills HWHNE
LaR resolves it like this: The Block has the highest priority so T-Pein's kill gets blocked. The Redirect has no effect anymore on the Roleblock.
LaR works like this where a priority can snipe some other ability and with that counter it. This is explaining why for example Nibel wasn't able to steal Bread from a killed target. Because the creative effect of bread stealing is counted as "recruit" or as "creative" ability. They are always the bottom of the priolist in LaR. Even if this one comes very unclear right now, this is actually the intended way of how the priority list has to be used.
I personally dislike LaR because I prefer to create counterplay myself by using additional mechanics and I am not a fan of the idea that abilities disappear in chains if timed incorrectly with targetting. But I learned to respect it and acknowledge it's existence.
I am advocating for labling this in future games, if you are a LaR user and you figured this out by this very post, then please make sure to write in future sign-ups that you use LaR and include the priority list that you use ALWAYS.
Let's follow up with NaR. Natural Action Resolution is the most common way to resolve actions nowadays. This one has been specifically designed to operate with mafia bots and also make manual hosting easier (which in my opinion is not really true lol, LaR is braindead easier than NaR).
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution#:~:text=Natural action resolution is a,natural"%20result%20for%20simple%20situations.
I suggest everyone who is interested to read this article, but usually this is exactly how Worst Gen Coaches are teaching players the way of mafia right now, this is how Novas and AL for example teached me and Drago and so on.
So to tl;dr NaR here: Instead of creating a linear order you create chains and resolve those as each chain resolves to a unique result, unless chains cross with each other, without neccessarily creating a loop.
There is also a golden rule you follow "Apply actions which modify other actions before the actions they modify."
Let's take the prior example used: Rej roleblocks T-Pein who performs a Kill on HeWhoHasNoEqual, but Cake attempts to redirect Rej to another target.
Chaining the actions this would look rather like this:
Cake redirects Rej to Mister X > Rej Roleblocks T-Pein > T-Pein kills HWHNE.
We first applys Cake redirecting Rej to Mister X.
This changes Rej's target to Mister X.
T-Pein killing HWHNE is now granted as it became it's own "chain", Rej is not affecting this chain anymore.
Mechanically and resultwise it would look like this:
-Cake redirects Rej to Mister X > Rej Blocks Mister X
-T-Pein kills HWHNE.
BE AWARE, THAT TWO DIFFERENT HOSTING STYLE GIVE TWO DIFFERENT RESULTS. THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO PUT A LABLE ON IT.
Outside of that there is one major difference in hosting and that is the way of not showing failed kill attempts. I just say one rule of thumb: The heavier mechanics your game has, the more important it would be to show failed kill attempts. Especially to figure out if a Disguiser is still killing, if a serial or hunter type of role is still in the game. Something like that is also important in a multiball to atleast help townkilling parties to distinquish their kills from mafia kills and learn about redirecting abilities in the game. It has more benefits to the players overall, also because it can steer more discussion thoughout the day without really creating something odd hostingwise.
I understand that this is not a must use thing in certain communities, but since this has usually been a common part in our community I just would like to give it a thought. If players prefer that then feel free to voice your opinion regarding that and the hosts will have to atleast put some thought on it whether they would like to adapt or not.
Finally I think Cake is ready. Ready to drive the legend lane towards the top of the ladders. I understand that hosting in new communities can make someone unsure and especially receiving alot of criticism. I think Cake handled this well, reflected on some things and grew with it in this very game. And I think Cake can just become greater from here on.
I certify that there has been no interferences from the host side. We were hard working, physically and mentally, especially to fix up the sub slots, but welp this is for another criticism.
Overall Cake is good to go, my biggest advice is just...open up, if you ever are unsure about something, or if you want to know something about, reach out to people. There is usually someone with expertise and will to research that is not playing a game, be it me, Osie, Ratchet, AL or Fuji.
To any host, if you are unsure about something, ask around or use the most neutral way to handle it. And never worry too much about errors.
Errors happen, heck my Weebs game was probably the biggest errorred game ever hosted lolol. I am proud that I was able to serve such a massive negative-example.
Player Reviews:
Ngl, most of the things have been said. We have hosts making steady progresses, and maybe one or two players occasionally and seasonwise. But overall I see flawed conceptions of towning in mafia. As I somehow foreshadowed....there is alot of unneccessary fingerpointing that you guys use for playing. My advice to everyone...keep your damn rotten finger to yourself and don't point it unless you really really have a case, something that can only be nutcracked by direct mechanical involvement.
Aside of that I see still people that are not willing to strictly police players. Especially since you guys had the option to police Nibel for hardclaiming scum and gamethrowing, but this has never been done. Leaving that alive you give mafia always the chance to coordinate around such a slot and because of that mafia pushes the gamestate towards indies having no other (safe)option than siding with mafia.
This is an ongoing thing for years now and it is still not fixed. The readyness to police as a community is not there, rather people police for bias or out of fear. Which is sad to see.
Yeah there is not much to say. The new people are welcome to play more, especially Yoho and Bepo are very potential. But overall everyone can become better, by just trying out more games and attempt to play accordingly.
And before in future any of you guys shade a mechanic in very questionable manners...put yourself into the host's shoes, check out some wikis and maybe you will find answers to it. *cough* *cough* *baker* *cough* *cough*
My final words:
I am glad to have worked together with Cake, it really helped me to understand the different cultures that exist in mafia and where people come from. I think Cake is a great addition to our community, a new colour we didn't have before, and I hope we can track her hosting career here and play many more games. Cake can freely decide how she wants to host and afaik and understood she will def work on labling and maybe adapting. I think stuff will happen naturally as we grow up together, may it take 1 or 5 or 10 years. For everyone.
1) @Yoho
2) @Indigo
3) @Lord Melkor
4) @Mr. Reloaded
5) @Fujishiro
6) @Red Night
7) @Naomi
8) @Polar Bear
9) @Zolo
10) @Kiku
12) @BoaHancocksHusband
13) @Michelle
14) @Luka
15) @Bepo D. Bear
16) @The Orca
17) @T-Peinโข
18) @CaeDBoyd
19) @Ekkologix
20) @HeWhoHasNoEqual
21) @Seatonnes
22) @CoC: Color of Clowns
23) @Gadonkadonk
24) @Charlie
@Ratchet @Indigo @Jesse Pinkman
lmk if I missed someone
But I am different, I am pointing my finger to myself, with a wide wide grin on my face. "Yes, everything was my fault, I am the evil that shall be lynched..." - is what I said.
Joke aside, I think I am a very trashy coach, that I realized this time, I am not as witted as Osie for example, who has that eagle-eye and always the right questions in their mind. But because of that I know where I can work on myself and overall I have nice results to share.
Aye guys, for everyone who wants to learn some crazy stuff, listen tightly, because atp I can't promise how often this topic will come up in future, so be mindful here.
Cultural Differences
Me and Cake working together was a result of some more or less unlikeable conflicts and outcomes in a previous game. For betterment and integrity. Through the past weeks I got to know more about Cake and literally of the "school" she came from. It was the first time where I really realized that hosts will always end up differently, people evolve with their teachings, people evolve with their quirks and interests and that way different cultural standards get spotlighted with different communities and hosts. I also realized this alot after working together with Osie and learning about alot of mechanics/roles that he created, for example to complete an already existing branch of roles, like, e.g. the different versions of commuting or abilities from the bodyguard/hide branch.
As for Cake and me, we were further way culturally than I would have ever expected, but in order to work together I decided to fully embrace myself to Cake's vision and after checking the setup and clearing all rules, I only had to deal with one change that I wished for.
Helmeppo was three-shot bulletproof and at this point I want to use this to scold everyone who thinks it is a good idea to stack bulletproofs on the same role. There isno effort made to cast Bulletproof Vests and one Bulletproof Vest can result in a networth of one additional role for town. 1 life = 1 role. Not mechanicwise, but shotwise. Not only that, it is very frustrating to use "kill sponging" in mafia, because gameplay will have no relevancy anymore and in the end only one faction is suffering from frustration, that's the killing party.
I have already told this to Cake and the Helmeppo role was fixd up pre-game. I just want to make sure that something like that does not occur again, also with potential future newly hosts or veteran hosts that don't know about it. But once again: I am just advocating to stop bulletproof vest stacking, just to make games more consistent and rewarding.
Then oh boi, there was a Disguiser role that somehow caused some frustration in the mafia chat and dead chat. Especially mafia wasn't handling that one professionally, especially since the disguiser was even somehow helpful towards mafia in the gamestate back then.
As for people calling this "heavy bastardly", I can see why it is done and maybe there is an overall communitywork to be done here, in order to signalize that a setup may contain certain elements that temper with host results. After doing a bit of research, yeah I apologize for than one because I never hsoted a disguiser, at any rate, yeah that role can be slightly bastardish. Overall I think that Cake used one of the best versions possible for that role, a version that is the least on the bastard scale, and that is something that I also learned and may take as inspiration for future games. I think there is noone to blame here and I hope that that bit of steam that came from mafia and dead chat may get reconsidered and taken back, as both me and Cake are learning, especially if it comes to exotic roles.
So overall I saw potential in the setup, right from the beginning. It held some kind of different spice, especially with the cast and some exotic roles. Yeah, I was really eager to see how this would do and in later hindsight I actually realized something...me and Cake are not that different;
I always wanted to host a Baker setup but I never managed to fit one in timewise. Doing a Baker setup is just unknown ground for most of us, so in all honesty...this one was dearly needed and I am so glad that Cake has finally brought one Baker to our communities.
I personally knew about that role for like 2 or 3 years and I know a few others like @Adam ๐ also know about that role. So I am surprised that actually noone in this game came forward and said "yeah guys, we got a baker in this setup, this might be a baker game".
We are a raw bunch of people and I am pointing towards everyone here, also those that sit on the throne of the section @Ratchet
As for the final aspects of setup and hosting, the main difference that really crystallized throughout the game is the use of Action Resolutions.
This is the last time I want to say something funny regarding our hosting, maybe not funny, but more "ironic".
Cake thought she was using Natural Action Resolution but in reality she is using Linear Action Resolution. I had to giggle there as I was always aware there were different resolution types, but just recently in my Hell's Paradise Mafia game I had thoughtout discussion with Osie about different resolution types. I was able to gain massive intel on it and so I was able to explain Cake the differences between NaR and LaR and what exactly she is doing.
As I said previously, I never attempted to scold Cake into a direction to use something different and alter their vision, this was a full on Cake game and my job was to ensure that Cake knows what they are doing. And boi, I am sure that after this Cake truly knows what she is doing.
So as for those that hear about NaR and LaR for the first time, let me give you guys a crash course and why all of this came to be and why it is important to know about, to lable games correctly and to ensure that noone can shit on someone else for using something differently.
I will start with LaR. Linear Action Resolution is actually the most classic way to resolve actions. This one stems from some original older forum eras where roles were not as evolved as they are now. Not roles specifically but the way how roles can be countered.
Copy
Hide
Bus Drive
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect
Hide
Bus Drive
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect
Let's say Rej roleblocks T-Pein who performs a Kill on HeWhoHasNoEqual, but Cake attempts to redirect Rej to another target.
In Linear Action Resolution you would order the action according to priorities and then resolve them one by one:
1. Rej Blocks T-Pein
2. Cake Redirects
3. T-Pein kills HWHNE
LaR resolves it like this: The Block has the highest priority so T-Pein's kill gets blocked. The Redirect has no effect anymore on the Roleblock.
LaR works like this where a priority can snipe some other ability and with that counter it. This is explaining why for example Nibel wasn't able to steal Bread from a killed target. Because the creative effect of bread stealing is counted as "recruit" or as "creative" ability. They are always the bottom of the priolist in LaR. Even if this one comes very unclear right now, this is actually the intended way of how the priority list has to be used.
I personally dislike LaR because I prefer to create counterplay myself by using additional mechanics and I am not a fan of the idea that abilities disappear in chains if timed incorrectly with targetting. But I learned to respect it and acknowledge it's existence.
I am advocating for labling this in future games, if you are a LaR user and you figured this out by this very post, then please make sure to write in future sign-ups that you use LaR and include the priority list that you use ALWAYS.
Let's follow up with NaR. Natural Action Resolution is the most common way to resolve actions nowadays. This one has been specifically designed to operate with mafia bots and also make manual hosting easier (which in my opinion is not really true lol, LaR is braindead easier than NaR).
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution#:~:text=Natural action resolution is a,natural"%20result%20for%20simple%20situations.
I suggest everyone who is interested to read this article, but usually this is exactly how Worst Gen Coaches are teaching players the way of mafia right now, this is how Novas and AL for example teached me and Drago and so on.
So to tl;dr NaR here: Instead of creating a linear order you create chains and resolve those as each chain resolves to a unique result, unless chains cross with each other, without neccessarily creating a loop.
There is also a golden rule you follow "Apply actions which modify other actions before the actions they modify."
Let's take the prior example used: Rej roleblocks T-Pein who performs a Kill on HeWhoHasNoEqual, but Cake attempts to redirect Rej to another target.
Chaining the actions this would look rather like this:
Cake redirects Rej to Mister X > Rej Roleblocks T-Pein > T-Pein kills HWHNE.
We first applys Cake redirecting Rej to Mister X.
This changes Rej's target to Mister X.
T-Pein killing HWHNE is now granted as it became it's own "chain", Rej is not affecting this chain anymore.
Mechanically and resultwise it would look like this:
-Cake redirects Rej to Mister X > Rej Blocks Mister X
-T-Pein kills HWHNE.
BE AWARE, THAT TWO DIFFERENT HOSTING STYLE GIVE TWO DIFFERENT RESULTS. THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO PUT A LABLE ON IT.
Outside of that there is one major difference in hosting and that is the way of not showing failed kill attempts. I just say one rule of thumb: The heavier mechanics your game has, the more important it would be to show failed kill attempts. Especially to figure out if a Disguiser is still killing, if a serial or hunter type of role is still in the game. Something like that is also important in a multiball to atleast help townkilling parties to distinquish their kills from mafia kills and learn about redirecting abilities in the game. It has more benefits to the players overall, also because it can steer more discussion thoughout the day without really creating something odd hostingwise.
I understand that this is not a must use thing in certain communities, but since this has usually been a common part in our community I just would like to give it a thought. If players prefer that then feel free to voice your opinion regarding that and the hosts will have to atleast put some thought on it whether they would like to adapt or not.
Finally I think Cake is ready. Ready to drive the legend lane towards the top of the ladders. I understand that hosting in new communities can make someone unsure and especially receiving alot of criticism. I think Cake handled this well, reflected on some things and grew with it in this very game. And I think Cake can just become greater from here on.
I certify that there has been no interferences from the host side. We were hard working, physically and mentally, especially to fix up the sub slots, but welp this is for another criticism.
Overall Cake is good to go, my biggest advice is just...open up, if you ever are unsure about something, or if you want to know something about, reach out to people. There is usually someone with expertise and will to research that is not playing a game, be it me, Osie, Ratchet, AL or Fuji.
To any host, if you are unsure about something, ask around or use the most neutral way to handle it. And never worry too much about errors.
Errors happen, heck my Weebs game was probably the biggest errorred game ever hosted lolol. I am proud that I was able to serve such a massive negative-example.
Player Reviews:
Ngl, most of the things have been said. We have hosts making steady progresses, and maybe one or two players occasionally and seasonwise. But overall I see flawed conceptions of towning in mafia. As I somehow foreshadowed....there is alot of unneccessary fingerpointing that you guys use for playing. My advice to everyone...keep your damn rotten finger to yourself and don't point it unless you really really have a case, something that can only be nutcracked by direct mechanical involvement.
Aside of that I see still people that are not willing to strictly police players. Especially since you guys had the option to police Nibel for hardclaiming scum and gamethrowing, but this has never been done. Leaving that alive you give mafia always the chance to coordinate around such a slot and because of that mafia pushes the gamestate towards indies having no other (safe)option than siding with mafia.
This is an ongoing thing for years now and it is still not fixed. The readyness to police as a community is not there, rather people police for bias or out of fear. Which is sad to see.
Yeah there is not much to say. The new people are welcome to play more, especially Yoho and Bepo are very potential. But overall everyone can become better, by just trying out more games and attempt to play accordingly.
And before in future any of you guys shade a mechanic in very questionable manners...put yourself into the host's shoes, check out some wikis and maybe you will find answers to it. *cough* *cough* *baker* *cough* *cough*
My final words:
I am glad to have worked together with Cake, it really helped me to understand the different cultures that exist in mafia and where people come from. I think Cake is a great addition to our community, a new colour we didn't have before, and I hope we can track her hosting career here and play many more games. Cake can freely decide how she wants to host and afaik and understood she will def work on labling and maybe adapting. I think stuff will happen naturally as we grow up together, may it take 1 or 5 or 10 years. For everyone.
1) @Yoho
2) @Indigo
3) @Lord Melkor
4) @Mr. Reloaded
5) @Fujishiro
6) @Red Night
7) @Naomi
8) @Polar Bear
9) @Zolo
10) @Kiku
12) @BoaHancocksHusband
13) @Michelle
14) @Luka
15) @Bepo D. Bear
16) @The Orca
17) @T-Peinโข
18) @CaeDBoyd
19) @Ekkologix
20) @HeWhoHasNoEqual
21) @Seatonnes
22) @CoC: Color of Clowns
23) @Gadonkadonk
24) @Charlie
@Ratchet @Indigo @Jesse Pinkman
lmk if I missed someone
-Cake improved and will further improve
-Clarifying different resolution styles
-Some advices for failed kill attempts
-Advocating for more tolerance and growing together, even if it may take time
-Town has to git gud
-Clarifying different resolution styles
-Some advices for failed kill attempts
-Advocating for more tolerance and growing together, even if it may take time
-Town has to git gud
kinda, yes lol look at your first posts
all G my boy, I was talking generally about everyone and about the baker mechanics, which was quite an open thing to everyone almost
all G my boy, I was talking generally about everyone and about the baker mechanics, which was quite an open thing to everyone almost
I
good job @Mr. Reloaded
This was the most invested I've ever been in a Mafia game I'm pretty sure.
Had to get my act together after @Fujishiro called me out
Had to get my act together after @Fujishiro called me out
- Status