Chapter Discussion [Opinion] Luffy The Pirate Christ-When A Protagonist Ruins A Story

#81
I think I did elaborate on my opinion plenty in the OP lol.

But let’s clarify why Rayleigh wanted to meet Luffy:

Rayleigh wanted to meet Luffy because Shanks told him stories of a kid in East Blue who reminded him of Roger. Why did Luffy remind Shanks of Roger? Because Luffy just so happened to be born with Roger’s exact personality. Yet another way Pirate Jesus is blessed, he was literally written to inherit the exact demeanor, personalities, and life philosophies of Gold Roger himself, inexplicably and without ever meeting Roger to have been influenced by him.

Kid, I’m pretty sure he and Luffy have like the exact same personality in many respects, but Rayleigh was already pre-destined to meet the second-coming of Roger so fuck Kid. “Anybody can be as great as Luffy!” You know this notion is bullshit when even people born exactly the same as Luffy minus a few blessings can’t even sniff Luffy’s balls in terms of greatness or accomplishments.
You're pretty lost if, at this point, you're blaming his personality on something other than his autonomy. Even if that was true it's no blessing. He didn't set out to be Roger, they have things in common. Yamato set out to be Oden and we see why that sort of aspiration doesn't work. On the other hand Roger didn't bestow his personality... that's at least one hypothetical involving Rocks and another character besides Luffy. Luffy is just himself and he doesn't actually give a shit whether people thinks he measures up to expectations as he told Ivankov. He's also not like Roger anyway in that we see them at different stages of life. Different mindsets and priorities. We haven't seen Roger the total idiot, Luffy's stance on observation wasn't something Rayleigh heard from Roger, we haven't seen Luffy say he wants to shake up the world, we haven't seen Luffy intend on having kids, we know that Roger is a lethal swordfighter, and for one key example his ferocity is different. Ace inherited that disposition, being unwilling to turn his back when a friend is insulted. Luffy got over that in childhood and is more than willing to run when it's logical. That was absolutely the difference between life and death so it's weird to say they're literally the same.

Again, read Sabaody. If Shakki didn't like those qualities about Kid then why would Ray take interest? If he was one of those slaves, why would he give a shit about a guy who didn't give a shit about the slaves? The concept is so simple: Luffy isn't a dick so people are cool in return. Kid is absolutely not that way. His alliance failed because he went for strength over character, and he spurned Luffy because he was spurned. If you think characters have no control over their own personality sure, that sucks for Kid... but that's a ridiculous way to read a story.
 
#83
This is all going to be a heavily opinionated post, but I figured I’d put my frustrations with this character down in a post format.

Oda has so far removed Luffy the Pirate Messiah from the realm of being a relatable protagonist that he has completely and utterly removed all tension from OP as a manga, and inadvertently destroyed his own story as a result. At this point, Luffy just has so much going for him that he is impossible to relate to, and the unhealthy messages that Oda accidentally communicates are plentiful. I’m going to put to words why Oda’s philosophy on writing Luffy and his conflicts is so unhealthy that One Piece itself has become a self-destructive manga with a terrible messaging for young readers.

To be fair, OP is not the only manga that does this shit but it is the one I will focus on here.

Luffy is a protagonist chosen by destiny for success. He does not work hard, he does not train, he doesn’t truly struggle anymore, and as such he is simply someone who success just comes to automatically. The illusion that a lot of people seem to be trapped in that Luffy succeeds because he works hard or has great willpower, is an illusion that needs to be shattered, because the fact about Luffy is that he is simply chosen by the Hand of Fate and will succeed even if he spent absolutely no time training (which is basically the case anyway).

So, let’s talk about it:

I. Let Us Count His Holy Blessings

Let us count all of the ways that the Pirate Christ was pre-destined for greatness before he even laid eyes on a Jolly Roger:

1. He was born the Grandson of Garp the Marine Christ, and Dragon the criminal Christ, gifted with genetic god-hood before he had even opened his eyes for the first time.

2. He was also born with Conqueror’s Haki, an ability that only one in a million people are born with, though compared to the rest of his blessings this seems a bit trite tbh since Luffy has now learned an ability that is apparently even uncommon among Conqueror’s Haki users

3. At the age of like, 7, this kid personally met a Yonko who also sailed with the Pirate King and was personally passed down his hat from the Pirate King. Oh and also, Imu apparently has some obsession with Straw Hats, meaning the literal god-king of the OP world also apparently has a vested interest in just one of Luffy’s many blessings

4. He grew up alongside the son of the Pirate King, and these two constantly sparred and fought each other as children in between bouts of Luffy receiving training from the Marine Christ

5. He was personally taught Haki by First Mate of the Pirate King. This dude literally swam across continents to teach Luffy Haki

6. The most beautiful woman in the world, who hates all men btw, slobbers like a dog over this kid who is literally 14 years younger than her and who didn’t learn her name until weeks after she had initially fallen in love with him

7. And as if that shit wasn’t enough, now apparently Luffy’s Rubber fruit isn’t just some rubber fruit, now apparently this shit is like some highly-desired WG fruit that is about to be retconned into mythical status.

And we aren’t even finished learning about all the ways that Luffy has been blessed. We still don’t know the full details behind his connection to Joyboy or how he’ll fulfill Whitebeard’s Marineford Prophecy. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if next chapter we found out that Luffy’s urine was actually magic urine that cured cancer and turned Cock Roaches into Majestic Stallions. Like one day Luffy got bored, so he pissed into the ocean, a fish drank his urine, and that’s how Kaido was born.

If there’s anyone in the fandom who believes Luffy succeeds because he simply works really hard (even though we rarely see him train), or he simply wants it bad enough and never gives up, let me explain why that idea is bullshit:

II. Eustass Kid and Trafalgar Law

How anyone can think Luffy doesn’t win through destiny when his greatest rivals job harder than Big Mom is beyond me. Oda originally introduced Law and Kid as Luffy’s “rival” characters more than anyone else in the Worst Generation, and through the timeskip, these are the only two members of the Worst Generation who have had similar ambitions to Luffy. Law originally approached Luffy with plans to take down Kaido but then switching to Doffy, and Kid originally targeted Shanks but switched to Kaido after being defeated by him.

Both of these characters have so far failed miserably at their ambitions in the New World whereas Luffy has steamrolled every obstacle that has come into his path, minus Kaido but stay tuned because his ass whooping is imminent. So what gives? Why do Law and Kid fail where Luffy, blessed be his holy name, succeeds? Put simply, because Luffy is the Pirate Christ who will succeed no matter what. He has been chosen by destiny and cannot fail.

Law tried to use intellect to take down Doflamingo, constructing a well-thought out plan to politically maneuver Doflamingo into defeat: and that failed miserably.

Oda then gave Law a second chance, to defeat Doflamingo through combat: and that also failed miserably.

Then it was Luffy’s turn. Luffy goes into the Doflamingo fight with plans to simply punch Doflamingo in the face repeatedly until that works, and succeeds immediately. Literally the shittiest plan in the world, but Luffy wins anyway.

Why did Law fail repeatedly when Luffy succeeded? Simple, because Luffy is the chosen Pirate Christ while Law isn’t. Law has a lot of shit going for him too, a 5 billion Berry Devil Fruit, the D. Initial, high intelligence and fighting skill, he may even have CoC because fuck it why not at this point, etc..but he simply fails because he is not Luffy.

The message Oda is sending? “Don’t bother bringing your intellect to solve life’s greatest challenges, only genetic prophecy and endless amounts of destiny will help you overcome your struggles.”

The writing around Eustass Kid is even more heinous, because Kid and Luffy are, even in Wano, shown to be rivals with very similar willpower and ambition. However, Kid has spent the past 2 years getting smacked around and having his reputation destroyed, because once again, he is not Luffy.

Kid doesn’t have Rayleigh swimming across continents to teach him Haki.

Kid wasn’t gifted genetic god-hood by Garp and Dragon.

Kid wasn’t fortunate enough to be personally fed a WG-blacklisted Devil Fruit by a Yonko.

Kid, despite being paralleled with Luffy multiple times now for having that same strength of will, and even CoC, fails constantly while Luffy succeeds constantly. Kid and Luffy even looked like they were working exactly as hard as one another when they were moving rocks, but Kid is still a failure while Luffy defeats a Shichibukai every time he blinks. The message Oda is sending?

“Even if you cultivate a will as strong as Luffy’s own and work just as hard as Luffy, you will fail miserably because you still aren’t born the chosen one.”

Some might argue that Kid is a failure because he doesn’t train his Haki like Luffy does, to which I respond: yeah well, Rayleigh never swam across continents to spend two years stressing the importance of Haki to Kid. Shanks never sailed to Shabondy and told Rayleigh tales of Kid, birthing the desire to uproot his entire life to teach Kid Haki.

This messaging is not only ridiculously harmful to young people, it’s also just straight up not accurate to reality. Some of the greatest men and women in history have had extremely humble beginnings, with everything stacked against them and nothing in their favor, but have risen to greatness anyway. Napoleon was born a commoner, but at the height of his power, he dominated like, the entire western world, for example. In OP however, nobody ever succeeds at their ambitions accept for Luffy. Which brings us to part 3:

III. The OP Story is a Miserable Story of Hopeless Failure (Unless You Are Christ)

I only focused on Kid and Law here, but really the entire story of OP is a miserable little story about good people repeatedly failing in the face of evil only to be saved by the Pirate Christ. Go back and reread the story, only this time pay attention to the amount of minor characters who fail at their goals, only to be saved by Luffy in the end. I guarantee you in every arc, you will find a story where, if Luffy and company were not present, the good guys get hopelessly and mercilessly crushed by the forces of evil. For a few examples:

Nami and Arlong: were it not for Luffy, Arlong would’ve mentally broken Nami and kept her as his permanent slave.

Alabasta: the righteous Nefeltari family would’ve been brutally destroyed by Crocodile and their Kingdom would’ve been usurped.

Sky Island: the helpless denizens would’ve been massacred by Enel.

Fishman Island: Otohime’s righteous ideals would’ve been completely destroyed by Hody, her family massacred, and War would’ve been brought to the surface.

Punk Hazard: Caesar tortures children with no end in sight and sells WMDs to everyone else.

I could go on but these are just a few examples of how miserable this world would actually be to live in, if it weren’t for the Pirate Christ single-handedly solving all of the world’s problems by punching them in the face and screaming about how he’ll inevitably become the Pirate King, because who the fuck else even stands a chance at this point lol.

And speaking of no one else even standing a chance from the Pirate Jesus’ onslaught:

IV: A Total Lack of Conflict

There is no longer any doubt that Luffy will win every single encounter that he comes across. No matter what temporary failure it may seem has Luffy down for the count, he will never again experience true failure. There will never be an obstacle that he can’t overcome by sheer stubborn-ness, no enemy that he can’t defeat by punching them in the face over and over again, no inhabitant of the OP world who won’t build a bedroom shrine to him after knowing him for less than 24 hours..that’s it. The story of OP is just going through the motions at this point at the whims of Shonen Jump executives in the name of revenue, because the Pirate Christ will never fail at anything ever again.

Gone are the days of Aokiji at Long Ring Long Land, Kuma at Shabondy, Magellan at Impel Down, Marineford, etc..Oda has designed such a world that every possible problem from here on out will be solved by the mindless Fist of Christ.

Luffy seems defeated by Kaido? 0% of this fandom believes Luffy is not going to defeat Kaido in the end, and as such all of Wano just seems like a gigantic waste of time since the outcome is 100% certain.

Kaido is another genetic monstrosity gifted with a mythical DF and has ambitions of Pirate King, but he’s ultimately going to fail in the end anyway. Why? Because he’s not Luffy. He’s a comically evil idiot destined to get his shit kicked in by Christ.

Even Luffy’s ultimate greatest rival in Teach, a guy who sailed for decades under Whitebeard himself, literally broke the OP world by eating two DFs and very likely eating a 3rd in the near future, amassing a crew of the most heinous criminals in history, who is some-Fucking-how still slept on by the WG for some stupid reason, is going to lose to Christ in the end.

Oda literally had to create an antagonist who hardcore breaks the laws of the OP world just to give us an antagonist that we STILL have to suspend our disbelief to pretend like there’s a chance that Christ won’t kick his teeth in in the end anyway.

THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM. When you’re creating a fictional world, a story with its own rules and established laws..if you have to create an antagonist who hardcore breaks those established rules, and everyone knows your protagonist won’t lose to this guy anyway…where the fuck is the tension exactly???

Here is a story where people can only run at 100 miles per hour. Oh but by the way, here’s a dude who can run at 300 miles an hour. But don’t worry, the protagonist will win anyway.

At this point, there is no point in reading a story where the possibility of failure is just completely thrown out of the window. The tension in fiction comes from the idea that the characters you’re rooting for can actually fail. But with Pirate Christ…failure is no longer an option. He’s going to win in the end, there is no doubt. Destiny has deemed it so. And because there is no doubt…there is no real tension. Without tension, there is no conflict, and without conflict, there’s no story. Just a lifeless series of drawings and words presented in a sequential order. Which brings me to my conclusion:

V: There Is No Longer A Reason To Read One Piece

I know I’ve said this a few times in the past, but there doesn’t seem to be a point in reading this manga anymore. If I didn’t feel so invested in this series from the pre-timeskip days, I would’ve dropped it several times by now. I feel like I’m looking at what used to be a prized race horse, now old, sick, and decrepit, and I just can’t bring myself to put a gun to its head because of all the old memories and such.

This is just my opinion, but it’s clear to me now that OP is no longer a story that has anything to offer me, at least not as far as the Pirate Christ is concerned. And I’ve felt this way for a while now, but OP only seems to be worth following to witness the sheer spectacle of missteps and terrible writing choices, many of which are related to its abysmally un-relatable protagonist.

Am I alone in my thinking here? Feel free to roast me mercilessly if you disagree, I don’t care to act like my opinion is fact or anything lol. But what do you guys think? Is Luffy still a good protagonist? Is there still conflict and tension in One Piece?

@Owl Ki @Den_Den_Mushi @dizzy2341 @Beerbottle @Jiihad @ShishioIsBack @HA001 @TheAncientCenturion @Bogard @Van @Admiral Mou Bu @TheKnightOfTheSea @Seth @Zenos7 @Shuyaku @comrade @MarineHQ62 @Sentinel @playa4321 @Topi Jerami @Prince Kronos @Sky @Dragomir etc etc etc
Lmfao now add Sun God to the list

:usoprice:
 
#84
Goku trained in the afterlife for SSJ3, and put unlimited energy into his training.

He did train for it the same way he trained for all of his prior power ups, we just didn’t see the training.

Goku was also not the Messiah. He was born a Saiyan commoner and spends all of Dragonball Z outpacing Vegeta who was essentially the Saiyan messiah.

If DBZ were written by Oda, Goku would’ve been the Son of the God of Super Saiyans who created the entire race, and Master Roshi would’ve been the greatest martial artist of all time and would’ve personally fought Freitas to a standstill numerous times or some bullshit like that. Vegeta would also get his ass kicked unendingly and would’ve had a Goku shrine in his basement.
How do you know that Vegeta does not actually have a Goku shrine in his basement? :gokulaugh:
 
#88
Luffy has always been a sort of messianic figure. That became pretty clear as early as the Loguetown arc, so i don't understand where the idea that Luffy was ever some sort of relatable, hard working or humanly flawed individual came from.
He's literally Goku if you decided to put Goku in a more politically charged world and replaced his love for battling with a love for adventures.

He's impossibly kind and determined, is incredibly difficult to frighten or make back down, isn't tied down by what most humans are (sex, money, worries about the future) and such. Even next to the other Straw Hats, who are already incredibly morally upstanding characters in their own right, Luffy just stands out for his sheer inhuman determination.

In a vacuum that wouldn't make for a very interesting protagonist, but Luffy works EXACTLY because of how messed up the rest of the world is, it NEEDS a messiah. It also works because despite all of these "blessings" and shit he's been gifted with, Luffy is still fucking Luffy, he's still a humble guy that cares the most about his friends and dream and doesn't give a single fuck about his bloodline, whoever's will he's carrying or whatever the world sees him as.

The more we learn about the OP world the more clear it becomes to me just how inhuman the feats Luffy has accomplished in 2 years really are:

-Rookie pirate is pretty much already stronger than almost all of East Blue at the very beginning of the story.
-Alabasta was saved by a ragtag group of friends with a rookie captain that defeated a shichibukai. One of the best OP moments.
-Enies Lobby, a heavily guarded goverment facilty, was pretty much taken down by one pirate crew and few dozen allies. One of the best OP moments.
-Marineford stands out so much exactly because it was the only moment that truly managed to break Luffy completely.

At the end of the day, OP is a shonen written mainly to have emotionally cathartic moments and it manages this by having a thoroughly messed up world that is being saved by an uncorruptable embodiment of freedom.
I read OP to get those emotionally cathartic moments, that's where it's always managed to succeed for me, and Luffy is a major part of why they work so well. He's the light that vindicated the tragedies that took place in all of East Blue, Alabasta, Skypiea, Water 7, Sabaody, Fishman Island, Dressrosa and now he'll vindicate Wano's suffering too.

There's plenty to criticize about OP's writing still, but imo Luffy being a messianic figure isn't a strong one. That's the fucking point.
 
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Marimo_420

The Honoured One
#92
I have no problem with Luffy being born under a lucky star and being blessed. That's who he was from the get go. He was a member of the D. Clan and had access to a df which was incredibly rare outside of the grandline and more so in East Blue, the weakest of the 4 seas. This was already established in chapter 1.

Unlike Naruto or other shonen mcs, Luffy was already super strong upon introduction. He already possessed his own df, and "trained" himself from little to possess immense physical stats by the time he set out to sea. These were his own powers, and with it he was clapping everyone's cheeks in East Blue without too much trouble. He was never the underdog. He wasn't meant to be the typical hard working MC who was relatable. No, he was already blessed.



However, what I really don't enjoy about his character, and what has ultimately destroyed his character as many people and Major has pointed out is the inherited will/ child of prophecy bs.

Luffy was a man who set out to become PK not because he wanted to be the king of the world, or some sort of ruler. He set out because he wanted to become the freest man to have ever set sail.

However, all that has now gone right out of the window. Luffy's locked in a destiny forced to lick Roger's footsteps and become Joyboy 2.0, and his df will now be some ultimate bs Joyboy fruit too. He's not his own person no more. His actions are no longer his own choice since they're already all predetermined.

He's become the complete opposite of what he srands for. He's no longer free. My man is oppressed.

And that, is quite frankly disgusting. Probably a bigger 180 than even Ninja Jesus.
 
#93
However, what I really don't enjoy about his character, and what has ultimately destroyed his character as many people and Major has pointed out is the inherited will/ child of prophecy bs.

Luffy was a man who set out to become PK not because he wanted to be the king of the world, or some sort of ruler. He set out because he wanted to become the freest man to have ever set sail.

However, all that has now gone right out of the window. Luffy's locked in a destiny forced to lick Roger's footsteps and become Joyboy 2.0, and his df will now be some ultimate bs Joyboy fruit too. He's not his own person no more. His actions are no longer his own choice since they're already all predetermined.

He's become the complete opposite of what he srands for. He's no longer free. My man is oppressed.

And that, is quite frankly disgusting. Probably a bigger 180 than even Ninja Jesus.
Sorry but series hasn't ended it so we do not say for sure on what Luffy has/or will become until the end of the story......and he needs to get to one piece to become pirate king right?...to get to one piece, he needs poneglyphs and of course he has to do the same thing Roger did to become pirate king.......i.e. to collect poneglyphs.....now how he does it that is another story....he has to defeat Kaido in wano to get poneglyph and Roger didn't have to do that.....and of course Luffy is not going to surrender himself like Roger did...and Luffy is still the freeist man as he is not bound by anyone...he still do things as he pleases.....or maybe he becomes free by breaking the "locked" destiny that is currently "apparent" from your POV.....also we don't even know whether Luffy is going to do in the future....we can wait at least until that point right?...
 
#94
Well,about the fact that there is no tension anymore: its true,but at the same time i think its because we're going towards the final stages of the story,so after Kaido Luffy will have to fight to reach his goal to find the One Piece and thats it.
About the fact that the world of One Piece would be a mess without Luffy: also true,and i think Oda messed up a lot in this sense. I think that after the introduction of Supernovas,he should have kept following them and we should have seen their adventures go on in parallel to the Strawhats ones. Kinda what like happens in GOT i guess (his favorite show) where there are multiple storylines in a season. Oda also kinda did it briefly during Punk Hazard,when suddendly we saw that Kidd,Killer and Apoo was having a meeting during the Punk Hazard arc. And he is kinda do it now with the "Reverie" chapters between Wano's acts (altough we dont follow other Supernovas in those chapters,but other One Piece's characters anyway). The problem with the Reverie chapters,though,is that we dont SEE what actually happens but just HEAR from the characters the events that happened. So,Oda should have actually trasnformed One Piece in a story of many pirates figthing for the throne,not just the Strawhats story (altough they remains the main characters,but just not the only one we follow) that would have made One Piece cooler than ever in my opinion! And in this way you avoid the fact that "The world would be a mess without Luffy" because other pirates could save some islands too,or at least take them under their territory,giving to the island a better life than the previous pirate that owned the island,i dont know. But it would have been cool anyway. The OP world would surely feel even more alive! And we would change locations more often,an element that most people seems to dont talk about,but i think its fundamental in a manga about pirates and adventures: you cant spend 3 years in a island without showing the audience different places,in a manga about pirates and adventures! Its just lame,thats why i think the OP arcs should be way shorter than how they actually are.
 
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