Theory Orochi runs into a trap

[Pantheos]

Hey Guys.

@playa4321 and me are discussing OP-Stuff alot in Whatsapp, we theorize about every god damn panel andsometimes, really only sometimes, there comes something up, that just sounds right, one of this things, we want present to you here.
But before, lets state the

Status quo:​

Almost everyone is preparing for Onigashima, some are already on the way to it. Orochi knows about the change of the port, he knows where Hiyori seems to be, he knows about the scabbards. It is obvious there is a traitor among the alliance, it was stated long ago, even on Zuo because of the whole Raizou incident.

The Theory:​

1. Part
@playa4321 already postet some arguments and ideas about the traitor in another thread, i just copy these arguments to get to the following point: The Traitor is Kanjuro!
Arguments:

Spoiler

I have a another point which I get from a youtuber:

Why wasn´t Kanjuro on this list? Doffy probably should know that Kanjuro was free, why he don´t give him bounty stars aswell? Why Kanjuro drawing a Dragon instand of drawing a Tiger or other animal when they climp Zou? At this point only the troup of Kanjuro,Okiku and co can be the traitor because of the Zou thing with Raizao...

In otherway I like the arguments of @dizzy2341 and ask myself if Kanjuro is really the traitor, some points doesn´t would make any sense...

Spoiler

One major argument who speak totally for Kanjuro beeing a traitor.
When Momosuke,Kanjuro,Raizai and Kinemon left Wano, they split up in groups and Raizo land in Zou. Only someone who was their could tell this to Orochi and Kaido. Why Jack was after Raizo? Where he know that Raizo was split up with the other ones? Vivrecard can´t be the reason, otherwise they would easily find Raizo in zou without searching him.

I watch this video and most like agree with him:

From all arguments, the one with Raizo and Zou is the most point which let me believe that Kanjuro is the traitor. Either Shinobu,Okiki or someone else could know that Raizo was split up with the others. Only one of the group(Kanjuro,Kinemon and Momo) know that Raizo was split up and lead to Zou. The other arguments are good aswell, Yasuie get caught after Kanjuro/Shinobu hear about him, the same with Hawkins and xDrake with Nami and co. Everytime Kanjuro was alongside with them, yet he do nothing important yet.

Either Shinobu or Kanjuro and I would my all money for Kanjuro.

Summa summarum, arguments for Kanjuro is the Traitor:
- He knew Raizo is splittet from the group and he knew Raizo will be on Zuo. On the same time, he had no idea where Kinemon and Momo are, He could give the information to Orochi.
- He is the perfect spy with his ability, he doesnt need to leave a place to give information to another point.
- Every Information Orochi got was mentioned around Kanjuro.
- Even he is around the whole time, he has no impact, doesnt work on a plan, doesnt give help.
- Then there are some hints, but i wouldnt take them as hard argument, for example choosen the dragon over the tiger and stuff.

So, when accepting Kanjuro could be the traitor, you could stop here, be happy and wait, but we cant stop here, we follow the crumbs, so we come to the next interesting point:

2. Part
Orochi obviously knows alot about the plans and the alliance, he seems to know where the people are going and who is going there, also he knows about Hiyori and where she is. But there is something that doesnt match the information the traitor gives him. Take a look at the last page of the latest chapter again:

Spoiler

Orochi gets the information Udon is fine. The traitor must have given him the information that Udon has been fallen, but then he someone makes clear it is a false report. First thought would be about Tama and the Guards before, but we are a few days later, while everyone is heading to the port, luffy wouldnt left Tama alone with the prisonerguards, specially when the prisoners also left the prison, so the information cant come from the guards, but where is it coming from then? And what kind of false Information Orochi gets also?

3. Part
Now it gets interesting. Who is able to give false information and is trustworthy by Orochi? With the following picture of Law, it jumped into Playas and my head, it could be xDrake. He could deliver false information and Orochi is not able to get in contact with his traitor, because the way Kanjuro communicates are his paintings, which Orochi cant use. So he cant validate if Kanjuro was wrong or not, he has to trust the information, specialy when XDrake would declare the information came from Queen. But what would that mean? It would mean Law and XDrake working already against Orochis plan and even more interesting, against the Traitor. Law could have already known about the traitor and works active against him, thats why he didnt wanted to give any information to the SHP when he got caught. It was all planed.
It would simply explain:
Why Law is shown in this panel.
Why Orochi gets false information.
Why SHP shouldnt know about Law getting captured.

Also it is possible that someone else of the SHP understood the case and discussed it with Law, Nami for example, or Robin. It would also make clear why Robin is optimistic with this numbers. Thats also why the SHP separates from the Scabbards, because they can prepare for the Port, not for Onigashima.

4. Part
If we follow that theory so far, then we know Orochi things about the Scabbards to come to the Port, he also things about the 4000 fighters, but he is sure the SHP wont appear there, Law wont appear there and the Udon prisoners wont appear there. XDrake cant change these information, because there is no way how he could get better information about the manpower than the traitor. But he faked it already by taking out Udon from the situation. Means, Orochi is preparing for the scabbards and the fighters, well knowing they got old (except the scabbards), got used weapons and are very limited. So if he prepares for this situation and for is own pride, he will make sure to win against them, but wont take Kaido or someone from Onigashima for help (Jack, Queen, King, Numbers, Big mum....), because he things he can deal with it alone.

The crux here is, he cant, because with someone of the SHP revealing the plan of Law, they will go for the Port too, but from the other side. Also there come the prisoners, there comes Law and there will come Drake. So we could have here Orochi with his 10.000 man, maybe including the flying Six, against 4200 man, the scabbards, Law + Crew, Drake and the SHP.

With this theory, Law would have been able to split the whole force of Kaidos Army into 2 parts. Getting rid of the Flying six, of 10.000 men and Orochi. Weaken Orochis army, but even more important, getting the lead about Wano Kuni, about the other prisons, maybe about even way more men into the force, people which werent sure it can work, now are able to rise against Kaido. It could increase the army of the Alliance immense. And Kaido wouldnt even notice, because he is fully preparing on Onigashima, already the most people around him.

This also would mean, Law already knows about Big mum and can prepare for this situation.


Conclusion:
- Traitor is Kanjuro
- Law + someone of SHP knows about Kanjuro being the traitor
- Law and XDrake deliver wrong information to Orochi
- Orochi prepares wrong, will gets a big L at the port, losing his forces (10.000) and the lead of Wano
- SHP forces increase alot with Wano people, maybe also Koshyro
- Alliance knows about Big mum and can prepare



So, i hope you like the theory, maybe you have some additional arguments for or against this theory, feel free to share it with us!

Sincerely, yours
@playa4321 and Pantheos

 

[Tyki_Mikk]

Great work my man:cheers:
If we assuming that xDrake is indeed Law alliance friend, he probably tell him already about Big mom and Kaido alliance. Also he could know the traitor with play in Law plan aswell. Im sure the panel where Law was shown, he probably already plan something.

 

[Leo]

This now actually kinda convinced me that Kanjuro is the traitor.
Although in the same time I thought that Shinobu would be the traitor but if Kanjuro is indeed the traitor then it really is a shocking moment.

 

[Zowo]

What if there is no traitor?

 

[Reborn]

Hey Guys.

@playa4321 and me are discussing OP-Stuff alot in Whatsapp, we theorize about every god damn panel andsometimes, really only sometimes, there comes something up, that just sounds right, one of this things, we want present to you here.
But before, lets state the

Status quo:​

Almost everyone is preparing for Onigashima, some are already on the way to it. Orochi knows about the change of the port, he knows where Hiyori seems to be, he knows about the scabbards. It is obvious there is a traitor among the alliance, it was stated long ago, even on Zuo because of the whole Raizou incident.

The Theory:​

1. Part
@playa4321 already postet some arguments and ideas about the traitor in another thread, i just copy these arguments to get to the following point: The Traitor is Kanjuro!
Arguments:


Summa summarum, arguments for Kanjuro is the Traitor:
- He knew Raizo is splittet from the group and he knew Raizo will be on Zuo. On the same time, he had no idea where Kinemon and Momo are, He could give the information to Orochi.
- He is the perfect spy with his ability, he doesnt need to leave a place to give information to another point.
- Every Information Orochi got was mentioned around Kanjuro.
- Even he is around the whole time, he has no impact, doesnt work on a plan, doesnt give help.
- Then there are some hints, but i wouldnt take them as hard argument, for example choosen the dragon over the tiger and stuff.

So, when accepting Kanjuro could be the traitor, you could stop here, be happy and wait, but we cant stop here, we follow the crumbs, so we come to the next interesting point:

2. Part
Orochi obviously knows alot about the plans and the alliance, he seems to know where the people are going and who is going there, also he knows about Hiyori and where she is. But there is something that doesnt match the information the traitor gives him. Take a look at the last page of the latest chapter again:

Spoiler

Orochi gets the information Udon is fine. The traitor must have given him the information that Udon has been fallen, but then he someone makes clear it is a false report. First thought would be about Tama and the Guards before, but we are a few days later, while everyone is heading to the port, luffy wouldnt left Tama alone with the prisonerguards, specially when the prisoners also left the prison, so the information cant come from the guards, but where is it coming from then? And what kind of false Information Orochi gets also?

3. Part
Now it gets interesting. Who is able to give false information and is trustworthy by Orochi? With the following picture of Law, it jumped into Playas and my head, it could be xDrake. He could deliver false information and Orochi is not able to get in contact with his traitor, because the way Kanjuro communicates are his paintings, which Orochi cant use. So he cant validate if Kanjuro was wrong or not, he has to trust the information, specialy when XDrake would declare the information came from Queen. But what would that mean? It would mean Law and XDrake working already against Orochis plan and even more interesting, against the Traitor. Law could have already known about the traitor and works active against him, thats why he didnt wanted to give any information to the SHP when he got caught. It was all planed.
It would simply explain:
Why Law is shown in this panel.
Why Orochi gets false information.
Why SHP shouldnt know about Law getting captured.

Also it is possible that someone else of the SHP understood the case and discussed it with Law, Nami for example, or Robin. It would also make clear why Robin is optimistic with this numbers. Thats also why the SHP separates from the Scabbards, because they can prepare for the Port, not for Onigashima.

4. Part
If we follow that theory so far, then we know Orochi things about the Scabbards to come to the Port, he also things about the 4000 fighters, but he is sure the SHP wont appear there, Law wont appear there and the Udon prisoners wont appear there. XDrake cant change these information, because there is no way how he could get better information about the manpower than the traitor. But he faked it already by taking out Udon from the situation. Means, Orochi is preparing for the scabbards and the fighters, well knowing they got old (except the scabbards), got used weapons and are very limited. So if he prepares for this situation and for is own pride, he will make sure to win against them, but wont take Kaido or someone from Onigashima for help (Jack, Queen, King, Numbers, Big mum....), because he things he can deal with it alone.

The crux here is, he cant, because with someone of the SHP revealing the plan of Law, they will go for the Port too, but from the other side. Also there come the prisoners, there comes Law and there will come Drake. So we could have here Orochi with his 10.000 man, maybe including the flying Six, against 4200 man, the scabbards, Law + Crew, Drake and the SHP.

With this theory, Law would have been able to split the whole force of Kaidos Army into 2 parts. Getting rid of the Flying six, of 10.000 men and Orochi. Weaken Orochis army, but even more important, getting the lead about Wano Kuni, about the other prisons, maybe about even way more men into the force, people which werent sure it can work, now are able to rise against Kaido. It could increase the army of the Alliance immense. And Kaido wouldnt even notice, because he is fully preparing on Onigashima, already the most people around him.

This also would mean, Law already knows about Big mum and can prepare for this situation.


Conclusion:
- Traitor is Kanjuro
- Law + someone of SHP knows about Kanjuro being the traitor
- Law and XDrake deliver wrong information to Orochi
- Orochi prepares wrong, will gets a big L at the port, losing his forces (10.000) and the lead of Wano
- SHP forces increase alot with Wano people, maybe also Koshyro
- Alliance knows about Big mum and can prepare



So, i hope you like the theory, maybe you have some additional arguments for or against this theory, feel free to share it with us!

Sincerely, yours
@playa4321 and Pantheos

Well it's a good speculation and it make sense so I can buy it but it still didn't convince me properly

1)even if I assume that Orochi can't grasp paintings and Drake used this to gave false info to Orochi but still there is a loophole and that is presence of Kyoshiro. Flying six calls him boss if I remember well, so information should have passed through him.

2)how law figured out kanjuro is the traitor?we saw him taking action only when bepo and co got arrested by Hawkins and Shinobu questioning bepo loyalty.

So, without her remarks, I doubt law would have left in such haste. Also, all the planning if took place between Drake and Law, then it happened after bepo arrest. So no arrest, no Shinobu remarks, no planning which implies that Drake and Law planning, if happened, then it's out of circumstances. Also, it doesn't explain the need to take care of Hawkins.


However, the theory do have merits and I won't count this possibility out especially because of 'Raizo example, and Udon being free example' you quoted which makes it a possibility. I will further think on it

 

[Pantheos]

Well it's a good speculation and it make sense so I can buy it but it still didn't convince me properly

1)even if I assume that Orochi can't grasp paintings and Drake used this to gave false info to Orochi but still there is a loophole and that is presence of Kyoshiro. Flying six calls him boss if I remember well, so information should have passed through him.

2)how law figured out kanjuro is the traitor?we saw him taking action only when bepo and co got arrested by Hawkins and Shinobu questioning bepo loyalty.

So, without her remarks, I doubt law would have left in such haste. Also, all the planning if took place between Drake and Law, then it happened after bepo arrest. So no arrest, no Shinobu remarks, no planning which implies that Drake and Law planning, if happened, then it's out of circumstances. Also, it doesn't explain the need to take care of Hawkins.


However, the theory do have merits and I won't count this possibility out especially because of 'Raizo example, and Udon being free example' you quoted which makes it a possibility. I will further think on it

I understand your Point of view, but:

1. Even if they called him Boss, it doesnt mean he Needs to be their Boss, but even when, it doesnt matter the false info Needs to go through him. When Kyoshiro is not around and Drake just states the Information, calling it would come from queen (which isnt), why should Orochi have doubts in Drakes words?

2. Even on Zuo they talked about a possible traitor, so it was allways in the room. Law is a tactician and i doubt he just forgett this, he will have watched everyone and he is able to put the puzzle together. Like mentioned, there is much hinting directly to Kanjuro. Sure the plan with drake just came together when he met Drake. But didnt you wonder why Law knew exactly (!) where bepo and co were arrested? That they arent in Udon? Drake told him already.

That they Need to take care of Hawkins is obvious, he betrayed Kidd, he is always calculating chances and if there is one Moment the calculation Shows it is better to go with kaido, Hawkins will betray them too. And Keep him on the enemy sight? Why if they have the possibility to take him out right there.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2019

 

[Reborn]

I understand your Point of view, but:

1. Even if they called him Boss, it doesnt mean he Needs to be their Boss, but even when, it doesnt matter the false info Needs to go through him. When Kyoshiro is not around and Drake just states the Information, calling it would come from queen (which isnt), why should Orochi have doubts in Drakes words?

2. Even on Zuo they talked about a possible traitor, so it was allways in the room. Law is a tactician and i doubt he just forgett this, he will have watched everyone and he is able to put the puzzle together. Like mentioned, there is much hinting directly to Kanjuro. Sure the plan with drake just came together when he met Drake. But didnt you wonder why Law knew exactly (!) where bepo and co were arrested? That they arent in Udon? Drake told him already.

That they Need to take care of Hawkins is obvious, he betrayed Kidd, he is always calculating chances and if there is one Moment the calculation Shows it is better to go with kaido, Hawkins will betray them too. And Keep him on the enemy sight? Why if they have the possibility to take him out right there.

Kyo is portrayed as loyalist to Orochi. If anyone has been showing trustworthy to him then that's kyo. Even if I assume your argument then before Orochi will make a plan to send his forces to ambush scabbards, he will consult kyo and things would be blown out.

2)i have to re read law plot again as I think it was known that bepo and co got arrested by Orochi forces and not Kaido and are in flower capital and are getting tortured to reveal alliance plan by Orochi forces. This is obvious as Orochi forces captured many suspicious samurais and throw them all in same place. So I don't think Drake needs to inform law about this.

Now, both law and Drake could knew each other from past but still its a reach.

Also, shinboi angle is still unexplained as Oda is consistently highlighting her throwing remark on law.

I have to go through the chapters again so I am not sure of my arguments and it's possible that what you said turns out to be true. So as of now, I will definitely start considering kanjuro as suspect.

Thanks to you and Playa for this theory

 

[Pantheos]

Kyo is portrayed as loyalist to Orochi. If anyone has been showing trustworthy to him then that's kyo. Even if I assume your argument then before Orochi will make a plan to send his forces to ambush scabbards, he will consult kyo and things would be blown out.

2)i have to re read law plot again as I think it was known that bepo and co got arrested by Orochi forces and not Kaido and are in flower capital and are getting tortured to reveal alliance plan by Orochi forces. This is obvious as Orochi forces captured many suspicious samurais and throw them all in same place. So I don't think Drake needs to inform law about this.

Now, both law and Drake could knew each other from past but still its a reach.

Also, shinboi angle is still unexplained as Oda is consistently highlighting her throwing remark on law.

I have to go through the chapters again so I am not sure of my arguments and it's possible that what you said turns out to be true. So as of now, I will definitely start considering kanjuro as suspect.

Thanks to you and Playa for this theory

And how should Kyo have another Information? Just imagine the Situation. If Orochi consults Kyo about that and ask him about Information to Udon, he can just say queen didnt talked to him, but he can check. And if he manages to reach Queen, Queen will tell him Udon is fine, because that is what Queen thinks. Why should blown up tho?

2) To be honest, this "how did Law know about the prison" was just made up thought at the Moment, you absolutely could be right about that part. But it wouldnt Change something if it is like that. In that case, it is just possible Hawkins was interrupting the plan of Drake and Law, that is why he needed to go straight to that. Imagine Hawkins gets some Infos other than what Drake gets as "false flag Infos".

Sure it is a reach. But it would make sense.

Shinobu is strange, sure, but that could just be a running gag. Maybe it is also because Law was watching everyone to find the traitor and Shinobu missunderstood whats Happening.


Hope you enjoy this Kind of theory, Playa and me get alot of this strange thoughts and sometimes it could be worth a thread. :D

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Brilliant one, so many dots connect and it is best i read on this Traitor theory.

There are indeed some leaps of faiths at times, some minor ones which later makes sense and connect, are alright like 2nd informer being Drake, given Law was in the panel next to Orochii make sense. Bt there's equally chances of any of Queen henchmen telling Orochii that, afterall Queen n everyone in Beast pirates due to extention now believes Udon is safe.

There a another, big one that is Orochii deciding to attack the Port on his own, yes his personality is somewhat twisted and I can see him being overconfident to attack given the information he has on theit numbers and that SHs are also ain't there bt he also has shown cowardice and cautious nature at times makin him somewhat unpredictable.

Anyway i loved it and there is quite good strategy behind it.
Law also finds out Traitor he was initially blamed with, also explains why he didn't let the SHs knew bout his whereabouts, the false report in the start was also a great catch by you guys that led to possibility of being two traitors there and that when connected with Law in the panel gave you guys Drake. Orochii part is also brilliant we assume he attacjs, the forces are divided The alliance can beat him easily and will help gain more numbers.

 

[Reborn]

And how should Kyo have another Information? Just imagine the Situation. If Orochi consults Kyo about that and ask him about Information to Udon, he can just say queen didnt talked to him, but he can check. And if he manages to reach Queen, Queen will tell him Udon is fine, because that is what Queen thinks. Why should blown up tho?

2) To be honest, this "how did Law know about the prison" was just made up thought at the Moment, you absolutely could be right about that part. But it wouldnt Change something if it is like that. In that case, it is just possible Hawkins was interrupting the plan of Drake and Law, that is why he needed to go straight to that. Imagine Hawkins gets some Infos other than what Drake gets as "false flag Infos".

Sure it is a reach. But it would make sense.

Shinobu is strange, sure, but that could just be a running gag. Maybe it is also because Law was watching everyone to find the traitor and Shinobu missunderstood whats Happening.


Hope you enjoy this Kind of theory, Playa and me get alot of this strange thoughts and sometimes it could be worth a thread. :D

As I said, you guys definitely placed kanjuro as suspect in my mind which implies that your theory definitely has substance worth considering and if it turns out the way you guys called it then I would digest it because it somewhat makes sense.

I just have some reservation regarding it but that doesn't mean your theory is flawed. It's really hard to come out with such theory that can be fully convincing. So kudos to you and Playa


But I will give proper feedback once I will re read wano plot again because there are few things which aren't adding up or it could be due to my own lack of understanding.

And, yes if you guys come up with such theory then do tag me. It will be worth reading

 

[Finalbeta]

What if there is no traitor?

Probably a defying move

 

[Gargo]

This theory make sense.

I believe it.

 

[Pantheos]

50% of it is confirmed.

 

[Tyki_Mikk]

50% of it is confirmed.

Senpai

 

[BENGBENG NO MI]

:mon homme: