Speculations Orochi's betrayal

[dirtyLarry]

So I wanted to start a thread to speculate about the exact way how Orochi betrayed Oden in the end.

We know it will be a shocking and disgusting act, since we already saw Kinemon telling the story to the SHs/alliance and literally everyone was in tears and shocked, with even Luffy flipping his shit and screaming "THAT'S JUST SO DIRTY, OROCHI!!!" (we know he normally doesn't listen to stories at all).

Given Oden's recent portrayal as an absolute beast and madman, with even WB calling him "incredible" and the fact that we know he gave Kaido a huge scar, I was more and more convinced he put up a really good fight against Kaido. But if Kaido actually defeated Oden fair and square, where would Orochi's supposedly unbelievably dirty betrayal come in place? It wouldn't be necessary if Oden straight out lost against Kaido.

That's when I came across this amazing theory (credits to Cristian Clocianu):

"Mark my words on this, the ultimate betrayal of Orochi: Oden will be fighting Kaido on par, maybe even winning until Kaido or someone from Kaido's crew threatens to kill Orochi, Oden gives up in order to save him and finds out afterwards that Orochi betrayed both him and his father. "

This makes sense on so many areas and would literally be the ultimate (and most bitter) betrayal and outcome. It would also perfectly fit with the "loyalty" theme that is the main point of the whole saga.

Let's hear your thoughts on this. Do you like it or do you have your own theories?

 

[MarineHQ]

So I wanted to start a thread to speculate about the exact way how Orochi betrayed Oden in the end.

We know it will be a shocking and disgusting act, since we already saw Kinemon telling the story to the SHs/alliance and literally everyone was in tears and shocked, with even Luffy flipping his shit and screaming "THAT'S JUST SO DIRTY, OROCHI!!!" (we know he normally doesn't listen to stories at all).

Given Oden's recent portrayal as an absolute beast and madman, with even WB calling him "incredible" and the fact that we know he gave Kaido a huge scar, I was more and more convinced he put up a really good fight against Kaido. But if Kaido actually defeated Oden fair and square, where would Orochi's supposedly unbelievably dirty betrayal come in place? It wouldn't be necessary if Oden straight out lost against Kaido.

That's when I came across this amazing theory (credits to Cristian Clocianu):

"Mark my words on this, the ultimate betrayal of Orochi: Oden will be fighting Kaido on par, maybe even winning until Kaido or someone from Kaido's crew threatens to kill Orochi, Oden gives up in order to save him and finds out afterwards that Orochi betrayed both him and his father. "

This makes sense on so many areas and would literally be the ultimate (and most bitter) betrayal and outcome. It would also perfectly fit with the "loyalty" theme that is the main point of the whole saga.

Let's hear your thoughts on this. Do you like it or do you have your own theories?

Good one. That would actually be quite cool.
I speculated that Orochi is simply poisoning Oden, but I like this more.

 

[Inspector_Mu]

Orochi didnt even Know Kaido until Kaido invaded wano to look for Oden and gain Intels

That's where everyone were shocked to see orochi betraying them and making a deal with Kaido to save himself.

That's the betrayal.

Anour Oden vs Kaido, the match was high diff I believe with oden scarring Kaido yet Kaido won in the end, he gave oden a chance to cooperate but he refused, so Orochi who made a deal with Kaido decided to execute Oden... kaido tagged along with that idea.

 

[Cherry Hilk]

Except that Kaido losing to Oden is something that would make me seriously consider to skip Wano arc i believe that Orochi did something like blackmailing Oden at a certain point.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

a lot of people will say no because it kills "Kaido's hype" but if people have been paying attention to oden's flashback and how he is being portrayed especially against kaido 20 yrs ago, its very possible.

kaido has been defeated 7 times but the one time he gets a significant scar he isnt defeated/losing the battle?
sounds fishy as well.

 

[Inspector_Mu]

If getting a scar means losing
Then I guess WB lost to Roger
Shanks lost to Teach
Etc...

It doesn't work like that
Kaido Ls came before invading wano.

Also if Oden beat Kaido, the retainers will say so!

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

If getting a scar means losing
Then I guess WB lost to Roger
Shanks lost to Teach
Etc...

It doesn't work like that
Kaido Ls came before invading wano.

Also if Oden beat Kaido, the retainers will say so!

he doesnt have to beat kaido
but he could have the upperhand till shady shit goes down. it would explain the sh and others reaction afterward. no one has explicitly said kaido beat oden in battle. notice in my comment I was sure to state the one time got scarred he isnt "losing/defeated" . luffy at a point in his fight was losing to katakuri before things turned around. I dont think I have to go further explaining semantics here because I was very careful with the words I used.
"losing" isnt "lost."
executed as a criminal in the hands of orochi and kaido is all we are given .

 

[dirtyLarry]

Orochi didnt even Know Kaido until Kaido invaded wano to look for Oden and gain Intels

That's where everyone were shocked to see orochi betraying them and making a deal with Kaido to save himself.

That's the betrayal.

No offense, but that doesn't add up in my eyes.

If Kaido defeated Oden fair and square, why should he suddenly make deals with weak scumbags like Orochi? He would've just obliterated him, since he doesn't owe Orochi anything.

The very fact that Kaido actually even considers working with Orochi (for so long, too), tells me one thing: There is some kind of dept that Kaido has to pay back, too.

That's where the theory comes in place. If Orochi actually helped Kaido defeating Oden, it would make sense, that Kaido let Orochi be the official ruler over Wano as a reward (we all know Kaido is the actual ruler in the background).

 

[Longleg Larry]

No offense, but that doesn't add up in my eyes.

If Kaido defeated Oden fair and square, why should he suddenly make deals with weak scumbags like Orochi? He would've just obliterated him, since he doesn't owe Orochi anything.

The very fact that Kaido actually even considers working with Orochi (for so long, too), tells me one thing: There is some kind of dept that Kaido has to pay back, too.

That's where the theory comes in place. If Orochi actually helped Kaido defeating Oden, it would make sense, that Kaido let Orochi be the official ruler over Wano as a reward (we all know Kaido is the actual ruler in the background).

Totally agree. Orochi would’ve had to do something way more important than just let Kaido in to get that kind of reward.
My guess: Orochi gave Kaido his DF

 

[bluefire12]

Could Orochi still fight Zoro?

 

[Dr. Spook]

That's when I came across this amazing theory (credits to Cristian Clocianu):

"Mark my words on this, the ultimate betrayal of Orochi: Oden will be fighting Kaido on par, maybe even winning until Kaido or someone from Kaido's crew threatens to kill Orochi, Oden gives up in order to save him and finds out afterwards that Orochi betrayed both him and his father. "

This makes sense on so many areas and would literally be the ultimate (and most bitter) betrayal and outcome. It would also perfectly fit with the "loyalty" theme that is the main point of the whole saga.

Let's hear your thoughts on this. Do you like it or do you have your own theories?

I really like this theory, and like you said.. it makes sense with the loyalty thing that keeps revolving in this arc, as well as Luffy saying "That's dirty, Orochi!!"

I was thinking along the lines of Oden entrusting his family to Orochi, and Orochi just mouthing their location to Kaido and the Calamities, allowing them to use this as a leverage against Oden or something, but that guy's theory makes a lot more sense. :)

If Kaido defeated Oden fair and square, why should he suddenly make deals with weak scumbags like Orochi? He would've just obliterated him, since he doesn't owe Orochi anything.

The very fact that Kaido actually even considers working with Orochi (for so long, too), tells me one thing: There is some kind of dept that Kaido has to pay back, too.

That's where the theory comes in place. If Orochi actually helped Kaido defeating Oden, it would make sense, that Kaido let Orochi be the official ruler over Wano as a reward (we all know Kaido is the actual ruler in the background).

I agree with you on this.. the fact that Kaido has been working with Orochi for 20 years and has not once sailed from Wano could mean there was some sort of deal made between them.

I think it's something involving Oden's logbook...

Oden started writing his exploits in a logbook before he met Whitebeard, and it's possible that Oden either wrote something detailing his journey with Roger to Raftel or probably even wrote all the secrets of the world he had learnt in Raftel, since he was "one of the few who learned the secrets of the world".

Spoiler

And I think this goes in line with: Oden's ability to read the poneglyphs, Oden being part of the Roger pirates who went to Raftel, and also Kaido torturing Oden to reveal these secrets to him.

Spoiler: chapter 819

My guess is that Kaido has been trying to get shortcuts, which is why he's stayed in Wano for 20 years.. why would he waste time finding a translator when he could just get Oden's logbook and do things from there? But since he probably never found this logbook, he stayed for 20 years hoping it could be found.

I think Oden's logbook either contains the secrets of the world that were detailed in Raftel, or is a map to raftel that Kaido could use as reference.... maybe Oden even detailed the four islands that would mark the "X" spot where Raftel is? Kaido wouldn't need someone like Robin, if he could get something like this.

Kaido probably entrusted Orochi to find it, as part of the deal.

 

[KiriNigiri]

I don't think Orochi's betrayal is the reason for Oden losing. However, the idea that it's tied to Oden's fight with Kaido I could see. Maybe something like Oden fighting a desperate battle against Kaido, even managing to get a clean hit on him. All of this for the sake of Orochi whom he heard was held captive by Kaido, but as he lays defeated, he realizes Orochi's captivity was just a ploy Kaido and him concocted to lure Oden away from his friends and family.

 

[Tyki_Mikk]

"Mark my words on this, the ultimate betrayal of Orochi: Oden will be fighting Kaido on par, maybe even winning until Kaido or someone from Kaido's crew threatens to kill Orochi, Oden gives up in order to save him and finds out afterwards that Orochi betrayed both him and his father. "

That would be really dope if Oda would make such a move.
Not only that Oden was strong enough to handle Kaido, but this would show why Luffy and co going into rage mode when they hear the story of Kinemon. As we know Oden see in Orochi a friend or someone who need helped, he even spend lot of money to Orochi.

But if this scenario really happen as you said Larry, it will change the view about his character overall.
I mean in the first look, Kaido seems like someone who don´t would accept help from others and at most he don´t would accept trick in a real 1on1 battle. I mean just look at Kaido vs Big mom, he want his 1on1 fight with her and don´t even ask for help of the others.

Seeing Kaido character overall, would he really accept such a bad trick to defeat a enemy who could battle him equal in 1on1?
Beliving this is very hard though, it would change the overlook view of his character.

In my opinion with the background information about Kaido, I don´t think he would accept bad tricks as with Poison or the one which you make a theory about. So my though is that Kaido most like fight Oden and Orochi poisoned him while Kaido didn´t know that, with means Orochi even don´t tell everything to Kaido. In that case I could even see some plottwist later in story when Kaido hearing the truth about his battle with Oden and that Oden was the one who poisoned him, so he would probably even attack and kill Oden?

That would be a very nice plottwist and would give great impact into Kaido character building.

 

[Inspector_Mu]

No offense, but that doesn't add up in my eyes.

If Kaido defeated Oden fair and square, why should he suddenly make deals with weak scumbags like Orochi? He would've just obliterated him, since he doesn't owe Orochi anything.

The very fact that Kaido actually even considers working with Orochi (for so long, too), tells me one thing: There is some kind of dept that Kaido has to pay back, too.

That's where the theory comes in place. If Orochi actually helped Kaido defeating Oden, it would make sense, that Kaido let Orochi be the official ruler over Wano as a reward (we all know Kaido is the actual ruler in the background).

Kaido still rules.
He's not the type to run a country. He isn't BM , he is a war monger.

The scenario is looking simple :
Kaido invaded wano, looking for Oden,
Orochi save himself from the wrath and propose to Kaido a deal by selling out Oden and his men. He tells Kaido he can have the RP and have wano materialism. He turns the wano men against Oden by telling lies.

If Kaido didnt win fairly then it goes against His character! He isnt said to be someone who cheats or likes fighting with a squad next to him.
He has been fighting BM since Rocks time yet he didnt even kill her while chained , he uncuffed her to get a proper 1 vs 1 where both are healthy.

Also, it never had Orochi helped Kaido in battle!

Executed =/= winning or someone cheating and you lose.

You first get beaten before being executed or you give yourself willingly.

Orochi betrayal is him betraying Kozuki Oden who helped him with money and stuff by selling out.

 

[MasterD]

I think he did what Akechi Mitsuhide did and betrayed him to obtain the power over wano

 

[dirtyLarry]

That would be really dope if Oda would make such a move.
Not only that Oden was strong enough to handle Kaido, but this would show why Luffy and co going into rage mode when they hear the story of Kinemon. As we know Oden see in Orochi a friend or someone who need helped, he even spend lot of money to Orochi.

But if this scenario really happen as you said Larry, it will change the view about his character overall.
I mean in the first look, Kaido seems like someone who don´t would accept help from others and at most he don´t would accept trick in a real 1on1 battle. I mean just look at Kaido vs Big mom, he want his 1on1 fight with her and don´t even ask for help of the others.

Seeing Kaido character overall, would he really accept such a bad trick to defeat a enemy who could battle him equal in 1on1?
Beliving this is very hard though, it would change the overlook view of his character.

In my opinion with the background information about Kaido, I don´t think he would accept bad tricks as with Poison or the one which you make a theory about. So my though is that Kaido most like fight Oden and Orochi poisoned him while Kaido didn´t know that, with means Orochi even don´t tell everything to Kaido. In that case I could even see some plottwist later in story when Kaido hearing the truth about his battle with Oden and that Oden was the one who poisoned him, so he would probably even attack and kill Oden?

That would be a very nice plottwist and would give great impact into Kaido character building.

Certainly possible, but I think Oda will come up with a more shocking twist to be honest. This whole "Orochi simply posioned Oden and he lost against Kaido because of that" just seems so boring and anticlimatical to me. Especially since we know that Oda has been looking forward to Oden's backstory for a long while and wants to make it as dramatic as possible.
I also still don't see, why Kaido would let Orochi rule over Wano, if he didn't even know that Orochi somehow did him a favor. Kaido despises the weak and I don't see him even step so low to talk to flashback-Orochi, if the latter didn't do anything to attract Kaido's interest.

Kaido still rules.
He's not the type to run a country. He isn't BM , he is a war monger.

The scenario is looking simple :
Kaido invaded wano, looking for Oden,
Orochi save himself from the wrath and propose to Kaido a deal by selling out Oden and his men. He tells Kaido he can have the RP and have wano materialism. He turns the wano men against Oden by telling lies.

If Kaido didnt win fairly then it goes against His character! He isnt said to be someone who cheats or likes fighting with a squad next to him.
He has been fighting BM since Rocks time yet he didnt even kill her while chained , he uncuffed her to get a proper 1 vs 1 where both are healthy.

Also, it never had Orochi helped Kaido in battle!

Executed =/= winning or someone cheating and you lose.

You first get beaten before being executed or you give yourself willingly.

Orochi betrayal is him betraying Kozuki Oden who helped him with money and stuff by selling out.

I mean it's not impossible, but I just don't see it.
Why would Kaido even listen to a mere weak-ass servant in the first place. He despises the weak. If Orochi simply came to Kaido to rat out Oden, I bet the latter would just send him all the way back to flower capital with his club. He simply doesn't make deals with people he considers weak/lower-class.
Orochi must've done something extraordinary to actually make Kaido listen to him in the first place. Not to mention that Kaido let's Orochi be the official ruler for crying out loud. In my book that's not a favor for some minor servant, because of that servant merely ratting out some enemies.

 

[Jrus]

It seems to be a similar scenario to Alabasta and Dressrosa:

-Orochi makes the Kozuki family look like villains
-Then he and the "deity protecting Wano" Kaido pretend to be heroes and get rid of them
-Everyone now loves Orochi and Kaido and they take over the country

 

[Tyki_Mikk]

This whole "Orochi simply posioned Oden and he lost against Kaido because of that" just seems so boring and anticlimatical to me. Especially since we know that Oda has been looking forward to Oden's backstory for a long while and wants to make it as dramatic as possible.

Agree with this point, everyone expect this scenario and it would be kinda boring, the scenario from you would be far better and bring some plottwist point into the manga.

 

[dirtyLarry]

It seems to be a similar scenario to Alabasta and Dressrosa:

-Orochi makes the Kozuki family look like villains
-Then he and the "deity protecting Wano" Kaido pretend to be heroes and get rid of them
-Everyone now loves Orochi and Kaido and they take over the country

No, there is a significant difference:
In Alabasta and Dressrosa the people were actually tricked and believed in the villains, whereas Wano's residents absolutely despise and fear Kaido, while also thinking of Orochi as a coward.

 

[Zenos7]

No, there is a significant difference:
In Alabasta and Dressrosa the people were actually tricked and believed in the villains, whereas Wano's residents absolutely despise and fear Kaido, while also thinking of Orochi as a coward.

Pretty much, wano residents are just "playing along" out of fear, maybe some exceptions like urashima.