Ouki Army vs Renpa Army

Who Wins?

  • Ouki Army

    Votes: 5 62.5%
  • Renpa Army

    Votes: 3 37.5%

  • Total voters
    8

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#1
Last edited:

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#3
Damn Major, you are cruel. Creating this just before I go to bed. Now I am gonna be thinking about the all the possible matchups all night. :josad:
You're welcome :cheers::smithnie:

Out of interest, is there a reason why Ouki’s 5th Army Commander Doukin isn’t in the matchup?
I excluded him because he was dead but I'll add him now haha. I think Ouki will need him on the Vassal side
 
#5
I think Renpa takes this. Ouki is wanked in the manga but certain little details actually point at Renpa being the overall stronger and better generals. I'm Gonna list Renpa's merits over Ouki.
1. Renpa has the overall higher stats. 291 vs 286
2. Renpa was Zhao's commander in chief during Zhao's vs Qin's greatest war. He was holding back most of the Qin's 6 GG till his king repalced him and they got smacked hard.
3. He unifies the two themes of Generals.
Renpa is... a man who possesses many different "faces" in his role as a general. Before the battle breaks, he is a "Strategical general" that is capable of constructing elaborate schemes and battle plans. And once the battle begins, he can become an "Instinctual general" capable of sensing the battle's flow with intuition alone. Mou Gou.
4. Most of his deputies are self accomplished military generals. Aside from Rinko the other three are all famous generals and strategist. I mean it's all good to have vassals who have come up with you, but I think most people can agree having deputies who are battle-tested leaders in their own right is a slight advantage. The old man, in particular, was stated to be good enough to be the supreme military leader of a nation.
5. Renpa declared himself to be the best of that old gen lol. Sure this was self wank but it was kinda true. He did outlive all the former heroes of China.

With these points in mind, I think Renpa should edge Ouki in an extended confrontation.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#6
1. Renpa has the overall higher stats. 291 vs 286
Great post man. I will say tho, DB stats are mostly BS and shouldn’t be taken as iron clad law

2. Renpa was Zhao's commander in chief during Zhao's vs Qin's greatest war. He was holding back most of the Qin's 6 GG till his king repalced him and they got smacked hard.
He only held back Hakuki and Ouki, 2/6 but still I agree, a very strong feat.

I’ll play devil’s advocate tho, the reason Renpa held them off was because he was forced to fight defensively, knowing that if he fought offensively, he would lose lol
Post automatically merged:

So this is an interesting matchup, obviously Ouki and his vassals are at a numeric disadvantage, as

Ouki ~ Renpa >= Tou >= 4 HK > Ouki’s vassals

There is a significant ability gap between the HK and Ouki’s vassals that is tough to make up with just Tou, but in Kingdom, numbers don’t matter *that* much, what ultimately will decide victory will be synergy/unity of the armies.

Strategically, Renpa and Genpo make very strong cases for themselves, both being very strong or even top tier tacticians.

However, I would argue that Ouki and Tou could match them in the strategic battle, Ouki is someone who I think is impossible to actually outplay strategically, even Riboku himself barely managed to fool him based on what was basically a technicality (the speed of the Zhao horsemen). On top of Ouki being someone who just wont fall for any tricks and will have a counter for any scenario, Tou is the same way, being impossible to fool/trick really.

Renpa is somehow both an instinctual and strategic type, but I don’t think Ouki and Tou would fall for any Instinctual nonsense lol.

So grand-strategy wise, stalemate.

As for the actual battle itself, Ouki’s vassals are at a disadvantage against the 4HK, and Tou alone is not enough to bridge that gap.

Ouki and Renpa in my opinion is about an equal fight but I’d give a slight edge to Ouki.

This battle could go away but I’m leaning towards the Renpa army, because the 4HK are stronger than Ouki’s vassals. They would provide Renpa with more options to win the battle than Ouki would have with just a Tou.

So could go either way but Renpa wins more often that not
 
Last edited:
#7
Okay, may Lord Papa Ouki forgive me but..... I believe the Renpa Army takes this one.

Renpa and Ouki overall are equals, though I do believe Renpa to be the superior tactician since he supposedly held off both Hakuki and Ouki simultaneously, along with Mougou claiming Renpa is a strategic/instinctual hybrid and I believe Ouki to be the superior dualist since he nearly killed Houken thrice (first time Ouki assumed his death, second and third time Ouki was interrupted) while Renpa was knocked around by Mougou.

These two will lock each other down, they have to. This however works far more in Renpa’s favor since the battle then relies on each General’s subordinates and this is where the Four Heavenly Kings shine.

Ouki has one exceptional subordinate in Tou and a bunch of alright subordinates in his 5 Army Commanders.

The Four Heavenly Kings however, are all exceptional.

Best case scenario for Ouki’s vassals I could conjure (which is still grim) is:

1) Tou vs Kashibou: Tou victory if uninterrupted (highly unlikely), Kashibou stale mates until assistance arrives.

2) Rokuomi and Rinbou vs Rinko: Debatable outcome, most likely stalemate until assistance arrives.

3) Kanou and Doukin vs Kyouen: Kyouen victory, Kanou and Doukin slain.

4) Ryuukoku vs Genpo: Genpo victory, Ryuukoku retreats.

Tou will defeat Kashibou if given enough time. He is a far superior strategist and the Tou cavalry will match Kaishibou’s Guard. Kaishibou himself won’t go down easily and it will take Tou some time to personally kill him, time that Tou doesn’t have.

If Rinko is pincered by the other two in a 2v1 dual, he could lose. However, Rinko is a smart tactician and between his superior Zhao cavalry, his elite guard and his intelligence, he should avoid this. Rinko can defeat either one in a 1v1, however he needs to be fast enough to kill one before the other interrupts. Possible with Rinbou, unlikely with Rokuomi who held against Rinbukun while dodging arrows.

Here is where it all falls apart. Kyouen steam rolls here no contest. Kyouen went up against Renpa, Kyou and Ousen and gave all of them a tough time. His aggressive tactics will crush these two. From here, Kyouen is free to assist whoever needs it and will most likely send troops to Rinko and he himself will ride to Kaishibou’s aid and could kill Tou.

Ryuukoku stands no chance against Genpo’s tactics. He simply cannot match them and as the least combat oriented, he will not punch through Genpo’s lines. The reason this is Ryuukoku’s best matchup is that he will die instantly against any of the other Kings and can at least retreat in this scenario. He will also last longest against Genpo since he himself is focused more on tactics than personal combat.

Considering this was the best outcome I could conjure for Ouki’s vassals, I don’t think I need to state the worst case scenario to show how fucked they are.

From here, Renpa can regroup with his Four Kings and gang up on Ouki with whoever he wants, probably Kaishibou and Kyouen. He is comfortable with doing this since he had no problem planning to gang up on Mougou with himself and Rinko.

I apologise my lord Papa Ouki but I cannot see victory here for you today.:josad:
 
Last edited:
#8
Ouki is regarded as greater of the two generals in the manga verse. From being stated to be the strongest of the Qin 6, to the general that the whole of china wants dead.


Tou can matchup Kashibou and Genpo


Rest can pretty much even slate it.
 
#9
Ouki is regarded as greater of the two generals in the manga verse. From being stated to be the strongest of the Qin 6, to the general that the whole of china wants dead.


Tou can matchup Kashibou and Genpo


Rest can pretty much even slate it.
Nah Ouki was more like the most balanced of the 6. The manga regards the Zhao 3 and Qin 6 as equals. Renpa himself considers fighting Haku Ki as more challegnging compared to going up againts Ou Ki.
 
#10
Nah Ouki was more like the most balanced of the 6. The manga regards the Zhao 3 and Qin 6 as equals. Renpa himself considers fighting Haku Ki as more challegnging compared to going up againts Ou Ki.
They were not equals. If they were equal Qin would not have gained territory. Under the era of King Sho, Qin was the most powerful state. Zhao 3 simply served as good limiters for the Qin 6 preventing them from taking over entire china.


Renpa commented on Hakuki due to his reserve nature, forgot the exact words.. but that had nothing to do with who he considered the best of the Qin 6, just simply about matchups. For example, his arrow general found Kyou to be the most troublesome.

It was specifically stated during Bayou war Ouki was the strongest of the Qin 6. And then stated that hes the general whose death is wanted the most out of all the generals alive, including Renpa.
 
#11
They were not equals. If they were equal Qin would not have gained territory. Under the era of King Sho, Qin was the most powerful state. Zhao 3 simply served as good limiters for the Qin 6 preventing them from taking over entire china.


Renpa commented on Hakuki due to his reserve nature, forgot the exact words.. but that had nothing to do with who he considered the best of the Qin 6, just simply about matchups. For example, his arrow general found Kyou to be the most troublesome.

It was specifically stated during Bayou war Ouki was the strongest of the Qin 6. And then stated that hes the general whose death is wanted the most out of all the generals alive, including Renpa.
Well Renpa was a fugitive at that point. He didn't have a king to serve so including him in the conversation would have been stupid really.
 
#12
Well Renpa was a fugitive at that point. He didn't have a king to serve so including him in the conversation would have been stupid really.
The statement wasnt about generals who serve a king. But simply about the general who's death is the most wanted.

And no it would not have been stupid as Renpa is a powerful general with his own personal army, that could strengthen any state he joins. I'm sure people would want him dead after Ouk or perhaps Riboku now.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#13
They were not equals. If they were equal Qin would not have gained territory.
You’re misunderstanding, the Qin 6 gained more territory because they had more freedom to act, and no political interference from Kanyou. The Zhao Generals were equally talented but didn’t have the freedom to raise armies and attack freely like the 6 did.

Proof: Renpa matched Hakuki and Ouki equally for 2 years. Zhao then lost the battle when their king interfered.
 
#14
You’re misunderstanding, the Qin 6 gained more territory because they had more freedom to act, and no political interference from Kanyou. The Zhao Generals were equally talented but didn’t have the freedom to raise armies and attack freely like the 6 did.

Proof: Renpa matched Hakuki and Ouki equally for 2 years. Zhao then lost the battle when their king interfered.
They gained more territory because under the reign of King Sho Qin was the most powerful state in China,. Historically and manga wise, hence the Qin 6 are more hyped up constantly compared to the others. And why Ouki was the one general that whole of China wanted dead the most, rather than Renpa.

As for who had more freedom, there is no manga statement that compares the freedom of Qin 6 to the others. The only comparison of Qin 6's freedom done was with the other generals of Qin. And the specific freedom in question here is the right to wage war.


Yes Renpa historically is superior to all generals in the manga of that time except maybe Hakuki. However, he is inferior to Ouki by a small margin in the manga, this is a liberty the mangaka has taken due to small info on Ouki historically.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#15
As for who had more freedom, there is no manga statement that compares the freedom of Qin 6 to the others. The only comparison of Qin 6's freedom done was with the other generals of Qin. And the specific freedom in question here is the right to wage war.
That’s not correct, what specifically made them different was King Sho gave them the freedom to wage war on their own, without approval from Kanyou. They could raise armies in their own and decide which territory to attack.

This is the entire reason Duke Hyou didn’t become one of them, because he didn’t want to decide long term strategy, he just wanted to be told where to go and who to fight.

This is also why Sho never made a Ousen a GG, because the ability to wage war and amass armies without permission was something Sho didnttrust Ousen with.

“Being the most powerful” isn’t just an empty statement, it actually means something. Qin was the most powerful because Sho gave his generals the most freedom.

This is like, the entire purpose of Moubu demanding the system be reinstated. And theventire reason Shouheikun and Sei plan to do so. Lol
 
#16
That’s not correct, what specifically made them different was King Sho gave them the freedom to wage war on their own, without approval from Kanyou. They could raise armies in their own and decide which territory to attack.

This is the entire reason Duke Hyou didn’t become one of them, because he didn’t want to decide long term strategy, he just wanted to be told where to go and who to fight.

This is also why Sho never made a Ousen a GG, because the ability to wage war and amass armies without permission was something Sho didnttrust Ousen with.

“Being the most powerful” isn’t just an empty statement, it actually means something. Qin was the most powerful because Sho gave his generals the most freedom.

This is like, the entire purpose of Moubu demanding the system be reinstated. And theventire reason Shouheikun and Sei plan to do so. Lol
There is no statement in the manga that backs up your point.

The only comparison of freedom done with the Qin 6 was with other great generals of Qin itself. You will need to find a statement that supports Qin 6 having more freedom to wage war than the other equivalents from other countries.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#17
There is no statement in the manga that backs up your point.

The only comparison of freedom done with the Qin 6 was with other great generals of Qin itself. You will need to find a statement that supports Qin 6 having more freedom to wage war than the other equivalents from other countries.
Yes there is.

Forgive me for citing the wiki and not the direct panels,

The Six Great Generals of Qin were a famous group of Qin's Great Generals personally appointed by King Sho to do battle in his name as he aspired to rule over all of China. These great generals were given the right to freely make war on neighboring states which meant that their autonomy made it difficult for other states to predict their actions.”


The greatest strength of the system was the caliber of the generals chosen to be one of the six and the autonomy is given to each general to conduct separate wars on King Sho's behalf, with the six acting as a strong independent force in the warring states”

https://kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Great_Generals

The wiki cites its panels if you want to dig into that. Lol
 
#18
Yes there is.

Forgive me for citing the wiki and not the direct panels,

The Six Great Generals of Qin were a famous group of Qin's Great Generals personally appointed by King Sho to do battle in his name as he aspired to rule over all of China. These great generals were given the right to freely make war on neighboring states which meant that their autonomy made it difficult for other states to predict their actions.”

The greatest strength of the system was the caliber of the generals chosen to be one of the six and the autonomy is given to each general to conduct separate wars on King Sho's behalf, with the six acting as a strong independent force in the warring states”

https://kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Great_Generals

The wiki cites its panels if you want to dig into that. Lol
You did not provide a citing of where the Qin 6's freedom is compared to that of Zhao 3 , Tiger of Chu, Wei's dragons.

The wikipedia citation you've provided is from where the meeting of Ryoufui and Ei sei, where Shoubunkun explains to Shin what makes the Qin 6 so different. And In that he explains that they aren't just regular generals, but are generals that were provided freedom to wage war. This statement was specifically relative to the state of Qin and in specific to individuals like Moubu or the like of Duke Hyou, Mougou and his other old general friend, who were great generals at the time but did not possess the freedom to wage war.


Thus my statement of you not having anything from the manga that backs up your claim of Qin 6 having freedoms that their equivalents in other states did not. I personally do not know whether they did or not, as it's irrelevant, since that was not the factor that decided Qin 6 being superior to the others of their era, nor was that the difference between the states that allowed Qin to gain more territory.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#19
You did not provide a citing of where the Qin 6's freedom is compared to that of Zhao 3 , Tiger of Chu, Wei's dragons.

The wikipedia citation you've provided is from where the meeting of Ryoufui and Ei sei, where Shoubunkun explains to Shin what makes the Qin 6 so different. And In that he explains that they aren't just regular generals, but are generals that were provided freedom to wage war. This statement was specifically relative to the state of Qin and in specific to individuals like Moubu or the like of Duke Hyou, Mougou and his other old general friend, who were great generals at the time but did not possess the freedom to wage war.


Thus my statement of you not having anything from the manga that backs up your claim of Qin 6 having freedoms that their equivalents in other states did not. I personally do not know whether they did or not, as it's irrelevant, since that was not the factor that decided Qin 6 being superior to the others of their era, nor was that the difference between the states that allowed Qin to gain more territory.
Why are you doing this lol? It’s okay to just stop, you know that because you said it yourself:

Shoubunkun explains to Shin what makes the Qin 6 so different.
What makes them different was their autonomy and freedom. You know this, why the need to fight this pointless battle?

The Three Great Heavens were on par with the Qin 6 in strength. They were on par with the Fire Dragons and Gakuki as well.

There’s no need to convolute things when you know the explanation for why Qin expanded its territory when other states didn’t, despite having equally talented generals.
 
#20
Why are you doing this lol? It’s okay to just stop, you know that because you said it yourself:



What makes them different was their autonomy and freedom. You know this, why the need to fight this pointless battle?

The Three Great Heavens were on par with the Qin 6 in strength. They were on par with the Fire Dragons and Gakuki as well.

There’s no need to convolute things when you know the explanation for why Qin expanded its territory when other states didn’t, despite having equally talented generals.
It seems you don't realize the point you're making yourself. But in order to not be proven wrong or false you keep making the same statement respectively without any backing from a manga statement.

My statement: Qin military under King Sho's time was the strongest, hence they gained the most territory.

Your statement: Qin military gained territory because they had more freedom than the others of their equivalent like the Zhao 3, Wei fire dragons, and the others.


My statement is derived off of the fact Qin made the most gains during King Sho's era than any other state. From Hakuki's hype. From Ouki being hyped as the strongest general from those times.

Your statement is derived off a statement that compares Qin 6 to other generals in Qin. Despite your claim comparing Qin 6 to their equivelants from other states.

And now you've misused my own statement to fit your Post's narrative. My statement pointing out how Shoubunkun told Shin the difference between regular generals of Qin to the Qin 6.

In short like I have said for the previous posts, you're statements are not backed by the manga.


Zhao 3, Qin 6, Weis dragons, Gakuki, and etc. Are all roughly on the same level. However, Qin possessed the superior generals within the context of the manga in Hakuki (leader of Qin 6 and historically most hyped general of that era, even above Gakuki) and Ouki (strongest/best of Qin 6 within the manga). And the one being above them is Gakuki (within manga only).


Ouki > Renpa, by a very tiny minuscule difference.
 
Top