Powers & Abilities Ousen is more suited than SHK for head of military affairs position
- Thread starter SakazOuki
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Don't destroy Ousen's character.
Ousen did sacrificed many of his soldiers on multiple occasions but that man never took civilians life. He even warned Kanki’s army to loot them but not kill any single civilian.
Ousen did sacrificed many of his soldiers on multiple occasions but that man never took civilians life. He even warned Kanki’s army to loot them but not kill any single civilian.
Kanki's true nature made a re-appearence before his assumed "departure" of the series (sadly) so i assume Ousen's ambition will totally be referred to again.
I don't know how Hara will tie it in though and make it make sense considering real history.
Man has lost his wife along with slander of not being Ouhon's father. Even King Sho rejected his love.
Though i like his cold nature.
That's true. Even Heki said that Ousen's movements no matter how calculative it is, always make them feel uneasy and sense of insecurity. Thats prior to the beginning of the campaign. Lol
While later in center, he was barking at OuHon who literally put everything on the line to save him.
Too cold and calculative. But most interesting thing is that he's willing to take risk or gamble in different situations to achieve desired results. Also the calculations to counter any situation immediately.
I doubt if Hara really keeps up with actual history. Lol
Overblowing? not even close bruh. Overblowing would be saying he's the main factor in their growth, or majority of their growth is due to him, that's overblowing.
The whole "When he wants to". His goal since start of the series has been what? Making his own kingdom he's gone to such extents that he's tried recruiting subordinates of other generals. You can bet he's been trying to nurture talent, or atleast I would hope so if he's gonna be a competent king lol.
I'll address what SHK did for those two later (not sure where Tou is coming from though). But let me first address the points made when it comes to Ousen.
1st. Yup, this showcased Ousen recognizing their abilities and having good foresight. It's a point I often bring up when it comes to Ousen's foresight, however, this is after he's seen Shin's performances in Sanyou & the Coalition after both of which Shin was a big deal in the rewards ceremonies where Ousen was present (both times I believe). Though I mainly give him credit for Shin here since he was fully confidence in them, and that really was the only option he had, he needed both of the units to awaken in order for that wing to stand a chance.
2nd. He recognized Mouten's talent as somebody useful under him, and tried to recruit him. But promotion to the general was because Mouten already acting as the general. All he did was give Mouten formal authority. So not sure what "seeing the talent" you saw there. He formalized the role Mouten already took over himself. This is would be where the "overblowing" applies.
So essentially you're saying he recognized their abilities when they were already essentially generals (just held back to 5000 man commander due to SHK)? That's good on Ousen..
3rd. Whether he's your fav or not doesn't matter to me. He's not close to being mine, doesn't mean I'm not gonna acknowledge what this mf has done lol.
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What has SHK done for Kyoukai & Shin? well... let's see.
1st. Making Shin the captain of an independent unit, despite being somebody of no relevant background or family. Then doing the samething with Kyoukai by making the captain of an independent unit. A privilidge that only 2 other individuals in Qin have received lol. Certainly you don't need me to explain to you how being given the independent unit status played into Shin's growth and Kyoukai's growth. But in the off-chance somebody else might need an explanation. The mans made them independent units since their 100-man commander days all for nurturing the most important ability in a campaign or war; the ability to make appropriate judgement calls on the spot.
While that was the main objective he had in mind. Surely, one does not need to be told the other benefits how being in charge of an independent army would grow somebody as a commander and a general vs somebody who's subordinate to another commanding officer... all of which playing a crucial role in their eventual role as the Qin 6, who essentially operated as large scale free roaming independent units.
Got damn, more I'm typing this, the more scary this mf's foresight starts to become.
2nd. Allowing Kyoukai to stay with Shin, despite it not being within military regulations. He literally made an exception for them. Surely Kyoukai staying in the HSU didn't boost the HSU's fodder, considering how much tactics she drilled into her soldiers, who are part of the HSU. And surely her staying had nothing to do with HSU being able to take on the tasks they could, which further stimulated their growth. Surely Shin & Kyoukai, two pieces SHK had has his eyes on due to immense talent he saw in them, working together doesn't increase the effectiveness of their warfare when they're on GG status... considering Qin 6 were effective due to the trust between them.
That's simply the sum of the crucial stuff I can remember from the top of my head. I'm pretty certain I can go reread the series and find specific things SHK did to favor the HSU, either via through Ten or in other manner, which had an influence on the entirety of HSU (which includes Kyoukai & Shin).
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Not sure why you mentioned Tou, since I didn't say he nurtured the present generals lol. Just highlighted his ability to put them in the accurate roles that would fit them the most, and which would essentially help them gain that GG status. His assigning of Tou with the
Chiyoyou is something that correlates heavily with Tou's eventual historical role.
There's no overblowing going on here of any sorts, simply recognition of SHK's accomplishments as CoM, and the abilities that make him arguably the best CoM out there, outside of Riboku.
Bruh, you even went step further than Lee-dono and put Ouhon in there. He didn't raise anybody, what's being talked about is nurturing them. There's a big difference in the two, and that might be why you're saying that.
But yes SHK is responsible for nurturing 5 future Qin 6 level individuals (6 if you think Mouki could get on that level), since the moment they were 13/14-year old kids. Is he the only one who played a role in their nurturing? No. But did he play a crucial role in their nurturing and continues to do so? Yes. They are his boys and gal.
"without the luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids"...That's high level SHK slander there my guy, if you really equated SHK, who has the hardest job out of all the military personals, to a guy with luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids. Not even sure what the point of bringing Ousen's retinue was when we haven't seen SHK's retinue fully. But simply look at all of his boys being on point with him in terms of tactics without him ever giving a single signal, during the state of Ai invasion.
@1st bold, not gonna get into an Ousen vs Riboku debate, I'm just tryna chilll and have fun catching up to the seriess while having some casual discussions for refreshing. I've already made multiple giant posts breaking down the ownage Riboku gave Ousen during the Shukai plains, so you can check those out if you want.
@2nd bold, yikes... We can get into Tou's genius in a different thread down the line. . But to say this man is big time lacking in intelligence... bruh Idk what to say to you bruhz.
It depends on what specifically you're talking about.
If you mean as the whole package... then that man named Ri Boku stands at a different level compared to anybody else.
When you've been fullfilling the role of: #1 general, Prime Minister (aka top political head), CoM (top of the military), and even being the backbone of a nation morale wise (something that Ei Sei is for the Qin).
There's not a single person in China who's completing two of those roles together, let alone all 4 of those roles. And it ain't like you can turn these roles off and on. Each and every action he takes has to take into account all of his roles.
The mental fortitude and space it'd need for somebody to be like Riboku is god bless. Shoot I'd love to see is Riboku who's focused solely on being a general like he was in the 10 or so years at Ganmon. Just even 1 decent span in the series before he has to exit, where he goes full in on being a general and forgetting every other burden he has to carry. Fully unleashed Riboku.
The whole "When he wants to". His goal since start of the series has been what? Making his own kingdom he's gone to such extents that he's tried recruiting subordinates of other generals. You can bet he's been trying to nurture talent, or atleast I would hope so if he's gonna be a competent king lol.
I'll address what SHK did for those two later (not sure where Tou is coming from though). But let me first address the points made when it comes to Ousen.
1st. Yup, this showcased Ousen recognizing their abilities and having good foresight. It's a point I often bring up when it comes to Ousen's foresight, however, this is after he's seen Shin's performances in Sanyou & the Coalition after both of which Shin was a big deal in the rewards ceremonies where Ousen was present (both times I believe). Though I mainly give him credit for Shin here since he was fully confidence in them, and that really was the only option he had, he needed both of the units to awaken in order for that wing to stand a chance.
2nd. He recognized Mouten's talent as somebody useful under him, and tried to recruit him. But promotion to the general was because Mouten already acting as the general. All he did was give Mouten formal authority. So not sure what "seeing the talent" you saw there. He formalized the role Mouten already took over himself. This is would be where the "overblowing" applies.
So essentially you're saying he recognized their abilities when they were already essentially generals (just held back to 5000 man commander due to SHK)? That's good on Ousen..
3rd. Whether he's your fav or not doesn't matter to me. He's not close to being mine, doesn't mean I'm not gonna acknowledge what this mf has done lol.
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What has SHK done for Kyoukai & Shin? well... let's see.
1st. Making Shin the captain of an independent unit, despite being somebody of no relevant background or family. Then doing the samething with Kyoukai by making the captain of an independent unit. A privilidge that only 2 other individuals in Qin have received lol. Certainly you don't need me to explain to you how being given the independent unit status played into Shin's growth and Kyoukai's growth. But in the off-chance somebody else might need an explanation. The mans made them independent units since their 100-man commander days all for nurturing the most important ability in a campaign or war; the ability to make appropriate judgement calls on the spot.
While that was the main objective he had in mind. Surely, one does not need to be told the other benefits how being in charge of an independent army would grow somebody as a commander and a general vs somebody who's subordinate to another commanding officer... all of which playing a crucial role in their eventual role as the Qin 6, who essentially operated as large scale free roaming independent units.
Got damn, more I'm typing this, the more scary this mf's foresight starts to become.
2nd. Allowing Kyoukai to stay with Shin, despite it not being within military regulations. He literally made an exception for them. Surely Kyoukai staying in the HSU didn't boost the HSU's fodder, considering how much tactics she drilled into her soldiers, who are part of the HSU. And surely her staying had nothing to do with HSU being able to take on the tasks they could, which further stimulated their growth. Surely Shin & Kyoukai, two pieces SHK had has his eyes on due to immense talent he saw in them, working together doesn't increase the effectiveness of their warfare when they're on GG status... considering Qin 6 were effective due to the trust between them.
That's simply the sum of the crucial stuff I can remember from the top of my head. I'm pretty certain I can go reread the series and find specific things SHK did to favor the HSU, either via through Ten or in other manner, which had an influence on the entirety of HSU (which includes Kyoukai & Shin).
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Not sure why you mentioned Tou, since I didn't say he nurtured the present generals lol. Just highlighted his ability to put them in the accurate roles that would fit them the most, and which would essentially help them gain that GG status. His assigning of Tou with the
Chiyoyou is something that correlates heavily with Tou's eventual historical role.
There's no overblowing going on here of any sorts, simply recognition of SHK's accomplishments as CoM, and the abilities that make him arguably the best CoM out there, outside of Riboku.
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SHK didn't raise Shin, Kai & Ouhon, they were young commanders with great achievements on thrir record, any chief would see their potential.
Mouten, Ten and Mouki were attending his school. SHK is a military genius so it's not surprising they're picking up his legacy. Ousen, without the luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids, actively taught his retinue to imitate his tactics on the field during times of war.
Ousen raised Ouhon to a general just by ignoring him
He saw Mouten's potential to the point that he gave him the responsibility of starting the war in that peculiar fashion. Later he gave him command of the left wing.
During the predicament the right wing was going through, Ousen gave no commands for a couple days predicting the awakening of the Hi Shin unit, which later on carried the whole war by crushing Zhao's left wing, slaying 2 generals and 1 great heaven in the process.
Not only with allies, foes too seeing how Ousen literally outdid Riboku in every instant of their war.
Also Tou is lacking big time in intelligence. He is an exceptional character with long years of experience but head of the military is outstetching it. Against someone like Riboku Tou would be helpless.
Mouten, Ten and Mouki were attending his school. SHK is a military genius so it's not surprising they're picking up his legacy. Ousen, without the luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids, actively taught his retinue to imitate his tactics on the field during times of war.
Ousen raised Ouhon to a general just by ignoring him
He saw Mouten's potential to the point that he gave him the responsibility of starting the war in that peculiar fashion. Later he gave him command of the left wing.
During the predicament the right wing was going through, Ousen gave no commands for a couple days predicting the awakening of the Hi Shin unit, which later on carried the whole war by crushing Zhao's left wing, slaying 2 generals and 1 great heaven in the process.
Not only with allies, foes too seeing how Ousen literally outdid Riboku in every instant of their war.
Also Tou is lacking big time in intelligence. He is an exceptional character with long years of experience but head of the military is outstetching it. Against someone like Riboku Tou would be helpless.
But yes SHK is responsible for nurturing 5 future Qin 6 level individuals (6 if you think Mouki could get on that level), since the moment they were 13/14-year old kids. Is he the only one who played a role in their nurturing? No. But did he play a crucial role in their nurturing and continues to do so? Yes. They are his boys and gal.
"without the luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids"...That's high level SHK slander there my guy, if you really equated SHK, who has the hardest job out of all the military personals, to a guy with luxury of sitting in a mansion teaching some kids. Not even sure what the point of bringing Ousen's retinue was when we haven't seen SHK's retinue fully. But simply look at all of his boys being on point with him in terms of tactics without him ever giving a single signal, during the state of Ai invasion.
@1st bold, not gonna get into an Ousen vs Riboku debate, I'm just tryna chilll and have fun catching up to the seriess while having some casual discussions for refreshing. I've already made multiple giant posts breaking down the ownage Riboku gave Ousen during the Shukai plains, so you can check those out if you want.
@2nd bold, yikes... We can get into Tou's genius in a different thread down the line. . But to say this man is big time lacking in intelligence... bruh Idk what to say to you bruhz.
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It depends on what specifically you're talking about.
If you mean as the whole package... then that man named Ri Boku stands at a different level compared to anybody else.
When you've been fullfilling the role of: #1 general, Prime Minister (aka top political head), CoM (top of the military), and even being the backbone of a nation morale wise (something that Ei Sei is for the Qin).
There's not a single person in China who's completing two of those roles together, let alone all 4 of those roles. And it ain't like you can turn these roles off and on. Each and every action he takes has to take into account all of his roles.
The mental fortitude and space it'd need for somebody to be like Riboku is god bless. Shoot I'd love to see is Riboku who's focused solely on being a general like he was in the 10 or so years at Ganmon. Just even 1 decent span in the series before he has to exit, where he goes full in on being a general and forgetting every other burden he has to carry. Fully unleashed Riboku.
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D
Disagree, Shouheikun has just as good of tactics as Ousen if not better. Shouheikun indirectly broke Kanmei’s colossally strong Chu army to smithereens with tactics, and he tactically dismantled Wategi with a 10:1 disadvantage.
Why you sleeping on Shouheikun tactically?
Why you sleeping on Shouheikun tactically?
Grand stage strategical comparison between Riboku and SHK, choosing targets and scope :
- Riboku came to Qin with the objective of crippling Yan by giving Kankou and forming alliance.
Later after killing Gekishin Riboku begins his main scheme of Coalition considering the dialogues of first Riboku and Houken and later explained by Ordo.
- SHK begins his grand scheme right at the same moment as Riboku but he first targets Sanyou by using same alliance but bigger objectives, one more castle and most important piece for his scheme.
Later partial success in crippling Riboku's best feat of forming coalition.
After coalition, non stop wins for his grand strategy. Firstly against Wei and later in Kokuyou hills and now in south-west Zhao.
Now comparing the level of there scheme and there scale or army formulation than results :
Riboku's target was just one nation with the alliance four more nations. Army of the scale of 500k fighting against Qin's something between 250k to 300k. Actions and movements directly strategies by Riboku. SSK was just leader in face to make sure there isn't any dispute.
At southern pass, Riboku beat SHK as actions completely beyond expectations of Qin but still his lack of risk taking capabilities or calculations, neither couldn't take Sai in less time nor could understand the motive of opponents stalling.
Result - Lost.
SHK didn't has any campaign personally led by him yet but so far against other states :
Successfully countered and defeated coalition and even made possible for other to invade again to reinforce coalition by solidifying borders and than battle at Kankoku pass with quite an inferior number of men.
Now for other battles I'll not give him much credit as it was commanders of those campaign making there own strategies. But SHK role in deciding timing for the attack and making sure no other state could make interference is top notch. For example latest alliance with Wei.
Also it's all about only those feats which could be comparable between the two. Not all like Riboku's failures at south-western campaign. And SHK hadn't showed his capabilities while leading big campaigns yet.
- Riboku came to Qin with the objective of crippling Yan by giving Kankou and forming alliance.
Later after killing Gekishin Riboku begins his main scheme of Coalition considering the dialogues of first Riboku and Houken and later explained by Ordo.
- SHK begins his grand scheme right at the same moment as Riboku but he first targets Sanyou by using same alliance but bigger objectives, one more castle and most important piece for his scheme.
Later partial success in crippling Riboku's best feat of forming coalition.
After coalition, non stop wins for his grand strategy. Firstly against Wei and later in Kokuyou hills and now in south-west Zhao.
Now comparing the level of there scheme and there scale or army formulation than results :
Riboku's target was just one nation with the alliance four more nations. Army of the scale of 500k fighting against Qin's something between 250k to 300k. Actions and movements directly strategies by Riboku. SSK was just leader in face to make sure there isn't any dispute.
At southern pass, Riboku beat SHK as actions completely beyond expectations of Qin but still his lack of risk taking capabilities or calculations, neither couldn't take Sai in less time nor could understand the motive of opponents stalling.
Result - Lost.
SHK didn't has any campaign personally led by him yet but so far against other states :
Successfully countered and defeated coalition and even made possible for other to invade again to reinforce coalition by solidifying borders and than battle at Kankoku pass with quite an inferior number of men.
Now for other battles I'll not give him much credit as it was commanders of those campaign making there own strategies. But SHK role in deciding timing for the attack and making sure no other state could make interference is top notch. For example latest alliance with Wei.
Also it's all about only those feats which could be comparable between the two. Not all like Riboku's failures at south-western campaign. And SHK hadn't showed his capabilities while leading big campaigns yet.
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Imo Riboku is inferior to Ousen & SHK in both grand scheming and tactics. The one thing he has on his side is a "Ryofui" factor, the ability to strike deals. Riboku is a master manipulator (not on Ryofui's level ofc).
That's what helps him shine as a statesman, he's more well rounded in all aspects necessary.
That's what helps him shine as a statesman, he's more well rounded in all aspects necessary.
Well for Ousen, we haven't seen any grand scheme on the same level as conquering whole nation or defending (like Riboku and SHK). His initial target as given by SHK was Gyou. And he did succeed in that.
Comparing it with Riboku's scheme of destroying whole Qin is insult for what Riboku achieved.
An all rounder but of quite high level. I'll add one thing in this as well. His level of defense strategy is also quite high. Though he should remain behind the scenes for such success, like his plan for Atsuyou and Gian. Crippling Qin's army significantly.
Comparing it with Riboku's scheme of destroying whole Qin is insult for what Riboku achieved.
An all rounder but of quite high level. I'll add one thing in this as well. His level of defense strategy is also quite high. Though he should remain behind the scenes for such success, like his plan for Atsuyou and Gian. Crippling Qin's army significantly.
When I say tactics, I mean army vs army warfare. Ousen’s mountain fortress and hiding his army from Ordo and such to me are strategic victories, not tactical ones. Ousen is a strategic madman. Just in terms of tactics:
The only formations Ousen has shown are his wave attack with Makou, Shells and Joints, the Akou army’s offensive advance, and deciphering Riboku’s Great Crane.
Makou’s wave attack isn’t even an advanced tactic, any General can execute a wave attack as this is a well known tactic. The most impressive part of Makou’s offensive was Mouten actually getting Jobsui to turn his army to the right so Makou could flank him, which Mouten gets credit for, not Ousen. Riboku also totally invalidated this tactic by assassinating Makou.
Shells and Joints is impressive but Riboku immediately deciphered this tactic and broke it (via Bananji and Gyou’Un).
Akou’s offensive (where his own troops trample each other to maintain momentum) is…cool, but I think we’ve seen better offensive displays (such as Shouheikun’s Echelon but more on that later).
And lastly Ousen deciphering the Great Crane is cool, but I’m not really sure that Ousen can use this level of deciphering against every other tactic, because all he did to counter the Great Crane was order his troops not to use any tactics at all. If anything Riboku should get much more hype for coming up with an offensive like the Great Crane, which involves his own troops using both strategic and instinctual tactics to counter their enemies (Renpa gets serious hype from people for being both strategic and instinctual, with people forgetting or ignoring that Riboku can also do this lol).
Okay so as for Shouheikun: his Echelon shattered Kanmei’s entire army (and these are strong ass Chu troops), which to me is much more impressive than anything Ousen has shown offensively. Akou’s charge (Ousen’s strongest offense iirc) is an offense strictly designed to maintain momentum at the cost of your own troops, while Shouheikun’s Echelon is designed to literally shatter an entire army’s formation. Mouten stated that this tactic was so high level that most strategists never even attempt to use it, while Shouheikun showed how brutally effective this tactic can be, even when Shouheikun himself wasn’t even using it. Lol
And as for Shouheikun’s Hyourai, he defeated an army of 10,000 men with only 1,000 of his own. Should I go on? Need I elaborate? Lol
So yeah, we have Shouheikun indirectly shattering a massively powerful Chu army just from instructing another commander on how to use this tactic, and we have Shouheikun defeating 10,000 men with only 1,000 of his own in an overwhelming fashion.
So yeah not even sure how Ousen competes with Shouheikun tactically, Ousen’s main hype is strategic but we’ve seen much better army vs army commanders imo. Even what Ouki did to Chousou was far more overwhelming than anything Ousen has shown, Ouki tactically ripped Chousou to complete shreds when they finally came army to army, and Ouki didn’t even have a trained army with him, he ate Chousou alive solely by ordering his troops where to attack and then counter-attacking Chousou’s counter-attack.
We’ve seen Shouheikun and Ouki both earn some pretty crushing tactical victories, but we’ve never seen this from Ousen. The closest thing Ousen has done to what Ouki did to Chousou or what Shouheikun did to Wategi and Hanoki, was when Ousen devastated Kisui, but again this was only possible because of Mouten, not Ousen. Immediately in terms of battlefield tactics, I’d put Shouheikun and even Ouki above Ousen for these feats.
As for Riboku vs Ousen, Riboku is 100% tactically superior to Ousen, no question. Ousen himself stated this lol, but since Ousen fans don’t take Ousen at his word:
Riboku assassinating Makou was an immediate victory over the left wing. Riboku would’ve defeated Ousen on literally day one of Shukai Plains if not for Mouten saving Ousen’s ass. Then the battle continues and Riboku masterminds Akou’s defeat. Again, were if not for Shin and Ouhon, that would be the second death blow Riboku dealt to Ousen without Ousen having a single answer to him. People think Ousen = Riboku because Ousen read the great Crane, ignoring that the only reason Ousen ever made it that far to begin with was because of the new Q3, otherwise Riboku would’ve body-bagged him twice.
So yeah imo it’s pretty clear, Riboku ? Shouheikun > Ousen tactically, I’ll give Riboku the benefit of the doubt over Shouheikun. And yes, army vs army, Ouki would defeat Ousen quite convincingly with Ousen only being able to defeat Ouki via complex strategic maneuvers.
The only formations Ousen has shown are his wave attack with Makou, Shells and Joints, the Akou army’s offensive advance, and deciphering Riboku’s Great Crane.
Makou’s wave attack isn’t even an advanced tactic, any General can execute a wave attack as this is a well known tactic. The most impressive part of Makou’s offensive was Mouten actually getting Jobsui to turn his army to the right so Makou could flank him, which Mouten gets credit for, not Ousen. Riboku also totally invalidated this tactic by assassinating Makou.
Shells and Joints is impressive but Riboku immediately deciphered this tactic and broke it (via Bananji and Gyou’Un).
Akou’s offensive (where his own troops trample each other to maintain momentum) is…cool, but I think we’ve seen better offensive displays (such as Shouheikun’s Echelon but more on that later).
And lastly Ousen deciphering the Great Crane is cool, but I’m not really sure that Ousen can use this level of deciphering against every other tactic, because all he did to counter the Great Crane was order his troops not to use any tactics at all. If anything Riboku should get much more hype for coming up with an offensive like the Great Crane, which involves his own troops using both strategic and instinctual tactics to counter their enemies (Renpa gets serious hype from people for being both strategic and instinctual, with people forgetting or ignoring that Riboku can also do this lol).
Okay so as for Shouheikun: his Echelon shattered Kanmei’s entire army (and these are strong ass Chu troops), which to me is much more impressive than anything Ousen has shown offensively. Akou’s charge (Ousen’s strongest offense iirc) is an offense strictly designed to maintain momentum at the cost of your own troops, while Shouheikun’s Echelon is designed to literally shatter an entire army’s formation. Mouten stated that this tactic was so high level that most strategists never even attempt to use it, while Shouheikun showed how brutally effective this tactic can be, even when Shouheikun himself wasn’t even using it. Lol
And as for Shouheikun’s Hyourai, he defeated an army of 10,000 men with only 1,000 of his own. Should I go on? Need I elaborate? Lol
So yeah, we have Shouheikun indirectly shattering a massively powerful Chu army just from instructing another commander on how to use this tactic, and we have Shouheikun defeating 10,000 men with only 1,000 of his own in an overwhelming fashion.
So yeah not even sure how Ousen competes with Shouheikun tactically, Ousen’s main hype is strategic but we’ve seen much better army vs army commanders imo. Even what Ouki did to Chousou was far more overwhelming than anything Ousen has shown, Ouki tactically ripped Chousou to complete shreds when they finally came army to army, and Ouki didn’t even have a trained army with him, he ate Chousou alive solely by ordering his troops where to attack and then counter-attacking Chousou’s counter-attack.
We’ve seen Shouheikun and Ouki both earn some pretty crushing tactical victories, but we’ve never seen this from Ousen. The closest thing Ousen has done to what Ouki did to Chousou or what Shouheikun did to Wategi and Hanoki, was when Ousen devastated Kisui, but again this was only possible because of Mouten, not Ousen. Immediately in terms of battlefield tactics, I’d put Shouheikun and even Ouki above Ousen for these feats.
As for Riboku vs Ousen, Riboku is 100% tactically superior to Ousen, no question. Ousen himself stated this lol, but since Ousen fans don’t take Ousen at his word:
Riboku assassinating Makou was an immediate victory over the left wing. Riboku would’ve defeated Ousen on literally day one of Shukai Plains if not for Mouten saving Ousen’s ass. Then the battle continues and Riboku masterminds Akou’s defeat. Again, were if not for Shin and Ouhon, that would be the second death blow Riboku dealt to Ousen without Ousen having a single answer to him. People think Ousen = Riboku because Ousen read the great Crane, ignoring that the only reason Ousen ever made it that far to begin with was because of the new Q3, otherwise Riboku would’ve body-bagged him twice.
So yeah imo it’s pretty clear, Riboku ? Shouheikun > Ousen tactically, I’ll give Riboku the benefit of the doubt over Shouheikun. And yes, army vs army, Ouki would defeat Ousen quite convincingly with Ousen only being able to defeat Ouki via complex strategic maneuvers.
Here Ousen was only viewing the all possibilities of conquering Gyou and surrounding castlea like RyouYou, Retsubi etc. And that target was given by SHK by making various calculations.
While SHK was building the plan considering all the simulations of Zhao's counter and how the target even after winning would remain secured with Qin and many more things. Along with this how they are going conquer remaining Zhao and different simulations for that as well.
While SHK was building the plan considering all the simulations of Zhao's counter and how the target even after winning would remain secured with Qin and many more things. Along with this how they are going conquer remaining Zhao and different simulations for that as well.
I agree with this post Lee. Riboku clearly owned Ousen on the first day by killing his left hand, however, let's not act like Riboku didn't have monsters of his own in his ranks. Gyou'un and Chougaryuu are GG calibre each.
Ousen trusting in the "Awakening" of the units was still trash and far too out of character for him.
Ousen trusting in the "Awakening" of the units was still trash and far too out of character for him.
Well they are Heavenly King caliber, which….yeah I guess is like low GG level lol.
But Gyou’Un and Garyuu had nothing to do with Riboku’s victory over the left wing which as I said, would’ve effectively defeated Ousen immediately.
Oh bro. I love this moment lol, I thought this was a great moment showing how humongous Ousen’s brain is.
But Gyou’Un and Garyuu had nothing to do with Riboku’s victory over the left wing which as I said, would’ve effectively defeated Ousen immediately.
Oh bro. I love this moment lol, I thought this was a great moment showing how humongous Ousen’s brain is.
The shit about Riboku's wank started once again. Hope many could discard all the disbelief and stop wanking Riboku so badly.
Wankers says Ousen didn't use formation or tactics against Riboku. Literally why should he do that from the beginning? Just simple counters of Ousen's against all of Riboku’s movements were totally shocking Riboku and causing him defeat after defeats. He was toying with Riboku.
Firstly in central battlefield, Riboku's special hybrid army was broken by Ousen. Zhao started to lose more men.
Than Riboku gave order to Earl Rai and Kai to start surrounding them crush them as Ousen's army was in center. Started offense. Ousen than started giving simple order. Once again Riboku's side started to lose more heavily. Riboku was tensed as Ousen could read origin and than even discard it so quickly.
Why saying Ousen didn't implement a single formation. After getting bore by countering Riboku's moves, he started his own offense.
Firstly Ousen made fun of Riboku by inviting him to come under his flag and later started his offense which resulted in Zhao's totally going on defense. Later on even lost one of the general. But not a single one counter for the formation saw from Riboku at all. He was just seeing his soldiers dying while Shiryuu and Sou'ou getting closer to his HQ. Only option left was believing in Futei and Bananji kill Ousen. While Riboku was just trying to maintain his tense face to the end.
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung Ousen was the one implementing Great Red Crane formation.
Comparison of Riboku’s capabilities in central field :
- Riboku begins with his army showing special tactics of hybrid drilled into them.
Ousen countered it head on.
- Riboku changed the movements of same strategy in hope to gain upperhand and start offense.
Ousen's disassembled the origin and started his own offense.
- Ousen made a formation while clashes between the two armies was going on. In between the heated battle he implemented a formation very neatly and shocked everyone.
Riboku still couldn't counter but was tensing while seeing formation taking place.
A while later even lost a general in Qin's offense.
- Sudden appearance Houken saved Riboku's HQ by stopping Shiryuu's momentum. Otherwise even Riboku said if either of these two came inside the HQ than it would be real trouble or have to retreat back.
In the end it was Riboku who in the end had to retreat. That was when another Great Heaven entered the war on his own and came with intent to kill Shin.
Two GH's together with numerical advantages and the title of most dangerous man and claim of being best strategist of all time but still couldn't counter Ousen's one formation or simple counters in the beginning.
Actually Riboku wasn't even capable of pushing Ousen in difficult situation for once in the central war. Than why should Ousen waste his other formations to play with Riboku.
:cheers:
Wankers says Ousen didn't use formation or tactics against Riboku. Literally why should he do that from the beginning? Just simple counters of Ousen's against all of Riboku’s movements were totally shocking Riboku and causing him defeat after defeats. He was toying with Riboku.
Firstly in central battlefield, Riboku's special hybrid army was broken by Ousen. Zhao started to lose more men.
Than Riboku gave order to Earl Rai and Kai to start surrounding them crush them as Ousen's army was in center. Started offense. Ousen than started giving simple order. Once again Riboku's side started to lose more heavily. Riboku was tensed as Ousen could read origin and than even discard it so quickly.
Why saying Ousen didn't implement a single formation. After getting bore by countering Riboku's moves, he started his own offense.
Firstly Ousen made fun of Riboku by inviting him to come under his flag and later started his offense which resulted in Zhao's totally going on defense. Later on even lost one of the general. But not a single one counter for the formation saw from Riboku at all. He was just seeing his soldiers dying while Shiryuu and Sou'ou getting closer to his HQ. Only option left was believing in Futei and Bananji kill Ousen. While Riboku was just trying to maintain his tense face to the end.
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung Ousen was the one implementing Great Red Crane formation.
Comparison of Riboku’s capabilities in central field :
- Riboku begins with his army showing special tactics of hybrid drilled into them.
Ousen countered it head on.
- Riboku changed the movements of same strategy in hope to gain upperhand and start offense.
Ousen's disassembled the origin and started his own offense.
- Ousen made a formation while clashes between the two armies was going on. In between the heated battle he implemented a formation very neatly and shocked everyone.
Riboku still couldn't counter but was tensing while seeing formation taking place.
A while later even lost a general in Qin's offense.
- Sudden appearance Houken saved Riboku's HQ by stopping Shiryuu's momentum. Otherwise even Riboku said if either of these two came inside the HQ than it would be real trouble or have to retreat back.
In the end it was Riboku who in the end had to retreat. That was when another Great Heaven entered the war on his own and came with intent to kill Shin.
Two GH's together with numerical advantages and the title of most dangerous man and claim of being best strategist of all time but still couldn't counter Ousen's one formation or simple counters in the beginning.
Actually Riboku wasn't even capable of pushing Ousen in difficult situation for once in the central war. Than why should Ousen waste his other formations to play with Riboku.
:cheers:
I think that there's a different type of intelligence involved between in-battle, pre-battle and then thinking up a grand plan. I would hesitate before saying Ousen is definitely above SHK in all, even though he has shown it. But like....SHK would never be in place to see Gyou and what would be required to see it so it's an example of how it is a little unfair to use evidence like that.
It's only when a man is face-to-face with death, can his talent flourish and surpass his limits. True strenght can only be achieve in the face of death.
SHK spent too much time sitting near tables. However I have no doubt in my mind that if he took the fields instead of playing Shogi with kids he would rival Ousen and Riboku.
SHK spent too much time sitting near tables. However I have no doubt in my mind that if he took the fields instead of playing Shogi with kids he would rival Ousen and Riboku.