Questions & Mysteries Prophecies in Wano

[ImmaIvanoM]

Something that I've just realised, there's two people who claim to be able to see the future.

This Old witch chick says she can see the future and even ochestrated Orochi's rise to be Shogun.

Toki also says she can see the future that in 20 years Orochi would be defeated by the scabbards or something.

Both this chick and Toki came from outside Wano and had their future seeing powers.

This explains why Orochi fully believes in Toki predictions like they are a fact when everyone else calls them superstition. Orochi literally know that these future predictions are a fact since his rise to power was also a future prediction so he has first hand proof that these predictions come true.

What's interesting is that Orochi is living proof that predictions and prophecies come true and yet he is also convinced that he can stop Toki's prophecy from coming true. The man is a walking contradiction but of course that's why he's a villain, his hypocrisy.

What's even more interesting is that prophecies can be changed actually since Katakuri's future sight can be wrong as long as you are Luffy of course. But Orochi doesn't know that.

 

[Tamerani]

This explains why Orochi fully believes in Toki predictions like they are a fact when everyone else calls them superstition. Orochi literally know that these future predictions are a fact since his rise to power was also a future prediction so he has first hand proof that these predictions come true.

This is quite interesting and I am glad you pointed it out!

I didn't notice when reading the chapter earlier but now that you mention it... He did receive a prophecy and because it became true and he got to be the Shogun he believes more into prophecies and is delusional about Tokis words. And understandable from a normal person's view is of course that the people won't believe prophecies just like that and think he's an idiot. (Which he technically still is )

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

This is quite interesting and I am glad you pointed it out!

I didn't notice when reading the chapter earlier but now that you mention it... He did receive a prophecy and because it became true and he got to be the Shogun he believes more into prophecies and is delusional about Tokis words. And understandable from a normal person's view is of course that the people won't believe prophecies just like that and think he's an idiot. (Which he technically still is )

I especially like how he doesn't want this prophecy to come true yet he himself only became shogun because of a prophecy

I hope in the end when he is getting deeated he finally realises the irony in all this

 

[Tamerani]

I especially like how he doesn't want this prophecy to come true yet he himself only became shogun because of a prophecy

I hope in the end when he is getting deeated he finally realises the irony in all this

Yeah that's true! His way of handling things is idiotic and I hope he will realize it by the end as well that he is no more than a fool

 

[Dr. Spook]

Something that I've just realised, there's two people who claim to be able to see the future.

This Old witch chick says she can see the future and even ochestrated Orochi's rise to be Shogun.

Toki also says she can see the future that in 20 years Orochi would be defeated by the scabbards or something.

Both this chick and Toki came from outside Wano and had their future seeing powers.

This explains why Orochi fully believes in Toki predictions like they are a fact when everyone else calls them superstition. Orochi literally know that these future predictions are a fact since his rise to power was also a future prediction so he has first hand proof that these predictions come true.

What's interesting is that Orochi is living proof that predictions and prophecies come true and yet he is also convinced that he can stop Toki's prophecy from coming true. The man is a walking contradiction but of course that's why he's a villain, his hypocrisy.

What's even more interesting is that prophecies can be changed actually since Katakuri's future sight can be wrong as long as you are Luffy of course. But Orochi doesn't know that.

I have a different opinion regarding the bolded stuff.

The difference between Lady Toki, and Madame Shyarly (felt like including her as well) compared to Katakuri is that those women have the power to predict fate; Lady Toki and her 20 years prophecy, Shyarly and her Whitebeard/Luffy prophecy, etc.

Katakuri on the other hand, can predict what would happen a few seconds later - he can see movements, speeches etc, and so he can change that. But what he doesn't see is fate - something that the former two could see. He didn't see Luffy defeating him for instance, or the effect that Luffy's existence would have on the BMP's as a whole in the future.

All this shows that fate - or in other words, the final outcome - cannot be changed, no matter how much one tries to prevent it. This also ties a little with fate being a recurring theme in One Piece.

Something that I've just realised, there's two people who claim to be able to see the future.

This Old witch chick says she can see the future and even ochestrated Orochi's rise to be Shogun.

Tbh, I don't think the old witch could actually predict fate.. I think she was just manipulating Orochi for her own ends, similar to Enel.. who was manipulating the survival game to prove his prediction but ended up being wrong in the end.... but in the old witch's case, she succeeded in making Orochi shogun.

Spoiler

In the above panel, the witch instructs him to get money and manufacture weapons.... A person like Lady Toki or Madame Shyarly who were both able to predict fate and conjure prophecies didn't need to even tell anyone on what to do to fulfill their prophecies, as fate will make that prophecy true in the end.

Did Shyarly instruct the marines on how to kill Whitebeard? Certainly not. Did Shyarly instruct Roger on how to get thousands of pirates to Fishman Island 1 year before the Great Pirate Age? Definitely not. Did Toki tell the straw hats to go to Wano and take down Kaido? Nope. But in this case, the old witch had to give Orochi instructions for him to fulfil her "prophecy" and become Shogun.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

A person like Lady Toki or Madame Shyarly who were both able to predict fate and conjure prophecies didn't need to even tell anyone on what to do to fulfill their prophecies, as fate will make that prophecy true in the end.

Thing is though, Toki did mention how Orochi would die... She specified a full moon which translated into the fire festival attack and she specified the 9 scabbards were involved which resulted Into the plan to gather all the scabbards

And Shirley had no stake in the outcome of Marineford so it didn't matter... We don't know the specifics of her prediction so we don't know if she has to do anything or could do anything that affected the outcome

 

[Dr. Spook]

Shirley had no stake in the outcome of Marineford so it didn't matter... We don't know the specifics of her prediction so we don't know if she has to do anything or could do anything that affected the outcome

With Madame Shyarly's prediction, I'm pretty sure it's sufficient enough to believe what Oda had Caimie say, regarding her predictions being confirmed true: the war on marineford, the death of whitebeard, the surging increase of pirates coming to fishman island on the onset of the great pirate age.

Spoiler: Chapter 610

Her having no influence in marineford or on Roger actually does matter. She saw what fate had planned, and it happened... she didn't have to make it happen; the old witch however, had to tell Orochi what to do to get her prediction right, a bit like Enel, who had to rig the survival game to prove his predictions were right.

Imo, she was more familiar with Wano's political structure than having prophetic powers.

Thing is though, Toki did mention how Orochi would die... She specified a full moon which translated into the fire festival attack and she specified the 9 scabbards were involved which resulted Into the plan to gather all the scabbards

With Toki, it's a bit complicated, as we haven't seen exactly how her prophecy would take form, but one thing's certain. She wasn't telling people what to do.. it's more to do with how people interpret her prophecy. For one thing, she never specified "nine scabbards" at all.. she specified "nine shadows". People in Wano interpret it as nine scabbards, because it's the only thing they associate with.

Spoiler: Chapter 919

Does nine shadows mean the nine scabbards? Not necessarily. Already, we see Kinemon not fulfilling this prophecy by having seven scabbards sail to Onigashima, without denjiro and neko. Could nine shadows refer to something else? Yes. The SHP are a likely candidate as well; they are nine members in total.

Toki also never gave specific instructions to sail to Onigashima. On the other hand, the old witch had to give careful instructions to Orochi one-by-one, instil his place as Sukiyaki's caretaker and manipulated people, tricking them to accept Orochi as Shogun to fulfil her prophecy, even after Sukiyaki's death.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

With Madame Shyarly's prediction, I'm pretty sure it's sufficient enough to believe what Oda had Caimie say, regarding her predictions being confirmed true: the war on marineford, the death of whitebeard, the surging increase of pirates coming to fishman island on the onset of the great pirate age.

Spoiler: Chapter 610

Her having no influence in marineford or on Roger actually does matter. She saw what fate had planned, and it happened... she didn't have to make it happen; the old witch however, had to tell Orochi what to do to get her prediction right, a bit like Enel, who had to rig the survival game to prove his predictions were right.

Imo, she was more familiar with Wano's political structure than having prophetic powers.



With Toki, it's a bit complicated, as we haven't seen exactly how her prophecy would take form, but one thing's certain. She wasn't telling people what to do.. it's more to do with how people interpret her prophecy. For one thing, she never specified "nine scabbards" at all.. she specified "nine shadows". People in Wano interpret it as nine scabbards, because it's the only thing they associate with.

Spoiler: Chapter 919

Does nine shadows mean the nine scabbards? Not necessarily. Already, we see Kinemon not fulfilling this prophecy by having seven scabbards sail to Onigashima, without denjiro and neko. Could nine shadows refer to something else? Yes. The SHP are a likely candidate as well; they are nine members in total.

Toki also never gave specific instructions to sail to Onigashima. On the other hand, the old witch had to give careful instructions to Orochi one-by-one, instil his place as Sukiyaki's caretaker and manipulated people, tricking them to accept Orochi as Shogun to fulfil her prophecy, even after Sukiyaki's death.

I think you are reading too much into this than you should

Like the mere act of literally seeing the future is enough to be considered changing the future in itself...

See I don't think Oda much cares about the minutia of what the difference between Toki Shirley or this hag is in what they are saying. Just like how Shirley and Toki can somehow be able to predict the future from completely unrelated abilities and Oda doesn't care to explain if there's a difference between accuracy or what can and can't be predicted because of said prediction or even the nature of the prediction like Shirley is unable to tell the date when her predictions will happen while Toki knows for a fact it's 20 years. Oda doesn't put much thought into actual machinations of how precisely these abilities work or are different so that's why it's all the same to me or even Oda I feel

This hag says she sees the future and knows Orochi will be Shogun and it happens and that's that. Whether she does things along the way or not probably doesn't matter to Oda as well. Like for one, all her planning with Orochi could not possibly have worked out if Oden didnt leave Wano with whitebeard and she had no ability whatsoever to plan for that to happen and yet it's the literal corner stone that allowed any of this to be possible. And Oda will not address this at all because he already gave t a blanket statement, Orochi was destined to be Shogun and so it happened.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't think the methods of these Prophecies or even the intrinsic steps of how they come about or how much they can be influenced matters outside of them simply being prophecies. And as such, Oda creates them to just be plot devices that can go whichever way he wants for the sake of drama. An example is, the Luffy destroying fishman island is a point of perspective when it comes to prophecies. Luffy will destroy fishman island but is that a good thing or a a bad thing? We already know the fishman themselves want to leave Fishman island so already you can see the build up to destroying the island not being a bad thing but at the time furing the arc, the prophecy was taken arc face value and created drama and skepticism and such. We don't need to know how much Shirley actually saw or how or if she can even affect the prophecy, the point of the prophecy was the drama and not the actual workings of the thing

Same with Orochi and his prophecy, the fact that he was prophecised to be Shogun and it happened is the point. It directly explains why he is how he is in the current time being the only person who had this almost irrational fear of another person's prophecy. That's the drama, it's the inevitability of the prophecy in itself. Like whether Orochi actively worked to make the prophecy come true isn't the point since there are things that aided him that were out of his control as well; the main point is that it happened and now he's been told that it's gonna happen again and he doesn't want it to happen. His hypocrisy is born from him being fine with a prophecy for him, but not one against him againstnd hence the drama is created.

I'm rumbling but I hope you get what I mean. The workings the prophecy aren't important compared to what the existence of the prophecy in itself does in the plot for dramatic reasons

 

[Uncle Van]

Toki can only send things into the future. She only knows certain instances of the past. Remember Jaguar D. Saul's? He said one day Robin will meet nakama who will cherish her. He had no way of knowing that; he just believed it would happen.

Toki is the same with a bit more control. Toki can send things and people into the future and say when they or it will appear, appearing like a prophet. She can knowingly send her family 20 years into the future and is BETTING that they can take out Orochi and Kaido.

People like Shirley and Hawkins and see/predict the future with many uncertainties.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Toki can only send things into the future. She only knows certain instances of the past. Remember Jaguar D. Saul's? He said one day Robin will meet nakama who will cherish her. He had no way of knowing that; he just believed it would happen.

Toki is the same with a bit more control. Toki can send things and people into the future and say when they or it will appear, appearing like a prophet. She can knowingly send her family 20 years into the future and is BETTING that they can take out Orochi and Kaido.

People like Shirley and Hawkins and see/predict the future with many uncertainties.

Apparently Shirley is 100% accurate but I had forgotten about Hawkins

Anyway Toki surely has a lot of detail than Saul... I mean I do not ever remember anyone saying Saul's words to Robin were a prophecy... I mean it's almost generic to just say that one day you will find friends somewhere in the world if you keep looking... Surely that's not as details and specfic as calling out a person time of death and how they will die and all that and eat the weather will be at the time of death too

 

[Uncle Van]

Apparently Shirley is 100% accurate but I had forgotten about Hawkins

Anyway Toki surely has a lot of detail than Saul... I mean I do not ever remember anyone saying Saul's words to Robin were a prophecy... I mean it's almost generic to just say that one day you will find friends somewhere in the world if you keep looking... Surely that's not as details and specfic as calling out a person time of death and how they will die and all that and eat the weather will be at the time of death too

Shirley's visions are 100% accurate but her interpretations are not. She saw Luffy on a burning FI and ASSUMED he was destroying it. Hawkins' tarots are 100% accurate but there are always at least 2 outcomes the details leading up to such outcomes being unknown.

I used Saul to show part of Toki's 20 year prophecy was just her hoping an outcome will happen. Like if Koshiro tells Zoro "You will be the WSS", that's just his faith in Zoro. Toki is a false prophet but Orochi doesnt know that.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Toki is a false prophet but Orochi doesnt know that.

How do you figure this exactly?

What exactly shows she's a false prophet? Just because we don't know how she was able to predict these things? C'Mon at least we should actually see the entire flashback before declarig that she was just saying random shit

And like I said, her statements are remarkably more detailed than Saul. You can't have hope that Orochi must specficially fall to 9 men on a full moon 20 yesrs later and then Wano's borders have to open as well... Like that's extremely more specific than a generic statement like you can make friends one day if you believe... C'mon I understand where you are coming from but you are making way too many concrete statements with little back up

 

[Uncle Van]

How do you figure this exactly?

What exactly shows she's a false prophet? Just because we don't know how she was able to predict these things? C'Mon at least we should actually see the entire flashback before declarig that she was just saying random shit

And like I said, her statements are remarkably more detailed than Saul. You can't have hope that Orochi must specficially fall to 9 men on a full moon 20 yesrs later and then Wano's borders have to open as well... Like that's extremely more specific than a generic statement like you can make friends one day if you believe... C'mon I understand where you are coming from but you are making way too many concrete statements with little back up

Not what I'm saying and let's use the evidence at hand.

-Toki's prophecy said said in 20 years, the 9 scabbards will take Orochi down.
-Toki has a DF power that can send things into the future.
-Toki can easily "predict" where things or people will show as she was the one who sent them that far in the first place.
Toki's claim that the Orochi will fall could just be her faith in her family's success with Saul being used as an example for that one point.
-it makes for some good themes as Toki can only have faith in their success, their success coming true thanks to a guy who can literally see into the future(Luffy).

With the evidence we have RIGHT NOW, Toki appears to be a false prophet. We know nothing else at the moment.

 

[Homelander]

Thing is though, Toki did mention how Orochi would die... She specified a full moon which translated into the fire festival attack and she specified the 9 scabbards were involved which resulted Into the plan to gather all the scabbards

And Shirley had no stake in the outcome of Marineford so it didn't matter... We don't know the specifics of her prediction so we don't know if she has to do anything or could do anything that affected the outcome

Its possible. One piece have rare seers who can look ahead and prophesise.

I am not sure about the old hag but she is very twisted and manipulative. Orochi was just a pawn to her in her scheme. She used him because he was last of kurozumi clan it was easy to twist his mind to avenging his clan pride back and hate kozuki.

She was acting bluff for her motives that might reveal to be kaido working with orochi in future.

Post automatically merged: Jan 21, 2020

Toki can only send things into the future. She only knows certain instances of the past. Remember Jaguar D. Saul's? He said one day Robin will meet nakama who will cherish her. He had no way of knowing that; he just believed it would happen.

Toki is the same with a bit more control. Toki can send things and people into the future and say when they or it will appear, appearing like a prophet. She can knowingly send her family 20 years into the future and is BETTING that they can take out Orochi and Kaido.

People like Shirley and Hawkins and see/predict the future with many uncertainties.

How does toki know orochi will have his demise during full moon night on that exact date ?

I mean why she choose 9 scabbards who will kill him ?