Versus Battle Renpa vs Gyou'un

who wins?

  • Renpa

    Votes: 20 90.9%
  • Gyou'un

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • could go either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    22
#21
There's really only 1 thing that gives any credence to Gyou'un being above Renpa, and that the whole "Face of Zhao's Martial might" or w.e that shit was. But for me that's simply referring to him being somebody who was one of the strong fighter during those days. Since for me back in the Zhao invasion his martial portrayal was inferior to the man they call the Demon of Ganmon. But leaving that aside, let's get into this Renpa situation.



1st. Gyou'un's "equal" or proper match up is not Renpa himself, but Renpa's underling Kashibou. Kashibou while having strength of arms on par with Renpa himself, is not Renpa's equal when it comes to full out combat.
So before you even actually get to Renpa, you gotta prove why he's superior to Kashibou. Which really nobody can. Because as far as Zhao is concerned Kashibou & Renpa have always been used as the measuring stick to somebody's martial might.

So now you might be asking, "Now hold up Xione, if Kashibou himself is on par or superior to Gyou'un, then how did Rinshoujou's army balance out Renpa? Since Renpa is on par with Rinshoujou in tactics & vastly superior in martial might" Well who said Renpa's army = Rinshoujou's army?? Not to mention, Renpa had 4 main underlings, Rinshoujou had 10. In fact the Rinshoujou army has no hype matching up to the Renpa army, that was able to hold up Ouki + Hakuki for 2 damn years. One can argue that Renpa probably had the strongest army of his time (other than the god of military ofc).


2nd. The overused Gaimou point. So the logic here is that Shin compared Gaimou to Renpa and then compared Gyou'un to Gaimou. So let's take a look at the statements.

Firstly, Shin compares the weight of the first blow from Gaimou to the blow he took from Renpa. Saying it's exactly the same. But understand this does not carry out to "equalship" in an all-out fight.



Notice here that unlike Gaimou where Shin says "it's exactly the same", he instead here says "Probably be against Gaimou". Meaning Gyou'un's swing is comparable to Gaimou, but not really the same. Now Shin acknowledges him as the "real deal" meaning he's a strong af of a fighter.


But what my esteemed Kingdom colleagues leave out here is that Gyou'un was compared to a guy who Ouki & Renpa openly looked down up in terms of dueling capabilities. Because in Kingdom simply having similar martial might doesn't guarantee one a W in a duel. And the reason for their looking down was simply.. Weight of a General.


Something in which Renpa is established as the highest in China right now, with Yotanwa, Tou, Riboku being close behind him (since these three have now entered that monsterous "S-rank experience" territory). And the only ones above him in China's history in general would be, Ouki, Hakuki, and ofc Gakuki. Ouki being the very image of what the MC views as "Great General of Heavens", Gakuki being the "Military God", Hakuki being the "Leader of Qin 6".


So Gyou'un's blow probably being on par with the guy who Renpa & Ouki viewed as their inferior, doesn't guarantee any superiority or equalship to Renpa. Instead, one can use this to say Gyou'un is inferior to Renpa just like Gaimou was. There is absolutely no panel in the manga that claims Gyou'un an underling to another Zhao General, has the same weight of general as the man who held up both Ouki & Hakuki at the same time. When my Kingdom colleagues can find such a panel, only then will this Gyou'un >= Renpa argument have any credibility.

On top of that, Gyou'un should first be established as Kashibou's superior, which he sadly has not been established as. And as I said earlier, Kashibou & Renpa are used as the measuring stick for Martial Might in Zhao, till this day... Not Gyou'un. In fact when Chougouryou (a friend of Gyou'un) was hyping up Bananji's martial might, finding somebody to compare it to, he didn't bring up Gyou'un, rather it's Kashibou & Renpa.
(Mind you Gyou'un's name was already introduced by this time. And this would've been the perfect way to put Gyou'un's name next to Renpa's, if Hara wanted to).

There's levels to this game. Gyou'un ain't on that level. As far as martial might is concerned regarding Zhao from the "golden era", I'd rate it Renpa > Kashibou > Gyou'un. Now ofc, we barely know anything about the other 3 great heavens' general who very well could've been a monster or have monsters under him too.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#22
Don't you think Ouki strongly implied here that Great generals or the one responsible will have more weight than the others.
It’s like @Owl Ki said, there really is no such thing as “more weight”, it seems to be that either you have weight or you don’t lol.

Gyou’Un again was directly compared to Gaimou who’s weight was stated to be exactly the same as Renpa. Exactly the same.

Being the Great general means that you have to shoulder anyone lives even your generals ones.
Shin has currently unlocked the same Weight that Ouki had at only 5,000 Man Commander. In fact the narrative tries to explicitly portray Shin’s weight as the same, even using almost identical choreography between the two fights to stress that Ouki’s weight would’ve allowed him to slay Houken had he not been shot, stressing that Shin and Ouki’s weight are the same.

Renpa the great general will have more weight. More responsabilities, more honors, he carried more lives on his back etc.
The way that Ouki describes Weight, and the way Shin’s weight was presented against Houken (I’m not going to go pull those panels as they’d be more difficult to find than the others lol), Weight doesn’t have anything to do with accomplishments, responsibility, or honors.

“Weight” is a concept that is strictly related to carrying the will of your fallen friends forward, Kingdom’s version of “inherited will”. And as far as this is concerned, before Gyou’Un even swings his Glaive at Shukai, Hara establishes that Gyou’Un is specifically thinking of Rin Shou Jou’s last words to him, the sole reason Gyou’Un has continued to live his life at all


In this sense, I would actually think Shukai Gyou’Un would have superior motivations to Renpa as far as weight is concerned (if even such a thing exists), as we really don’t know what fallen friends of Renpa’s are having their wills carried forward by him, unlike Gyou’Un who solely lives his life wish of his fallen master.

So again, “superior weight” isn’t really a thing but if it is, there’s more reason to believe that Gyou’Un would have it to Renpa.
 
#23
Don't you think Ouki strongly implied here that Great generals or the one responsible will have more weight than the others. Being the Great general means that you have to shoulder anyone lives even your generals ones. RSJ had likely greater weight than Gyou'un but the guy was too weak to fight.
No, he did not.
"A General is"
"A General obtains the responsibility"
"Hence, a General's existence"
"Hence, a General shines"

It is not attaining the rank of Great General that allows an individual to possess the Weight of a General, it is possessing the Weight of a General that allows an individual to reach the heights of a true Great General of the Heavens.

Both Shin and Chougaryuu possessed the Weight of a General despite Chougaryuu not being a Great General nor Shin even being a General.

Then we have Tou stating that he is a Great General of the Heavens back when he was just a General.

The same Tou that Ouki stated was not inferior to him in any way despite him never having been a Great General.

There has never been anything about a "Weight of a Great General", only the "Weight of a General". No mention of differing amounts either.
 
#24
“Weight” is a concept that is strictly related to carrying the will of your fallen friends forward, Kingdom’s version of “inherited will”. And as far as this is concerned, before Gyou’Un even swings his Glaive at Shukai, Hara establishes that Gyou’Un is specifically thinking of Rin Shou Jou’s last words to him, the sole reason Gyou’Un has continued to live his life at all


In this sense, I would actually think Shukai Gyou’Un would have superior motivations to Renpa as far as weight is concerned (if even such a thing exists), as we really don’t know what fallen friends of Renpa’s are having their wills carried forward by him, unlike Gyou’Un who solely lives his life wish of his fallen master.

So again, “superior weight” isn’t really a thing but if it is, there’s more reason to believe that Gyou’Un would have it to Renpa.
Sorry mate but this is completely ridiculous argument. The notion that Gyou'un, an underling who had a similar role to Tou/Rinko/Kashibou/Rokoumi/etc did for their respective generals would have the same weight as Renpa the man who led armies of hundreds of thousands from the front is ridiculous.

The Weight of a general is not merely "will of your fallen friends". In fact I'm not even sure where this idea is coming from.

The weight of a general & it's relation to GREAT GENERAL as described by OUKI & RENPA is this:


Each rank has a different set of weight, because each rank leads different number of individuals. Shin who led 8000 men has a higher weight than somebody like Mouten or Ouhon who led only 5000. Because the rank of a general in idea is no different than hundred or thousand man commander, just a position. But what seperates the rank of a general compared to a 5-000 man commander is the number of people one is responsible for.

After numerous deeds and brushes with death, people actually become generals. Then after becoming generals they are given the responsiblity of leading 10k+ men, something no mere commander can do. Which is what seperates it from other titles.

It is the responsibility that one has for 10 thousand + lives as a general, that gives one such a huge weight. The greatest of honors in being a general.


Now above a general is Great General. This was a position that's hyped by Renpa himself:



Willpower of 100, Strength of a hundred, knowledge of a hundred, experience of a hundred, and the luck of a hundred. How does one gain all of those things? Experience. Only through having great experience does one climb to the rank of a Great General. After attaining such a rank, that individual is then given more responsibility than even a mere general.

These are men men who can command armies of 400,000 people that a general can only dream of. Renpa, is one such man who was responsible for the lives of 400,000 men for over two years when he stalemated Ouki & Kakuki. Gyou'un has never carried such a responsibility. His master did, but whether his Weight was on par with Renpa's is also something we don't know yet (probably was who knows).

But there's a reason why "General of Great Heavens" has always been said by individuals who have become Great Generals and have the experience of S rank. Because these individuals have overcome the most odds. They have the most experience in being leader of great number of men. Thus, they carry the most weight.


Gyou'un doesn't even sniff Renpa's Weight of a General, let alone being his equal. This has nothing to do with liking Ouki, Renpa, Duke, or anybody like that. This is simply about the factual relation that exists between the "Weight of a General" & title of Great General. Even among the great general there are levels to it, Ouki for example possessed more heavier weight of a general compared to somebody like Mougou or the other guy who was Mougou's equal that got killed in the Coalition war. Why? Because he used to carry a bigger responsibility as a member of Qin 6.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#25
No, he did not.

"A General is"

"A General obtains the responsibility"
"Hence, a General's existence"
"Hence, a General shines"

It is not attaining the rank of Great General that allows an individual to possess the Weight of a General, it is possessing the Weight of a General that allows an individual to reach the heights of a true Great General of the Heavens.

Both Shin and Chougaryuu possessed the Weight of a General despite Chougaryuu not being a Great General nor Shin even being a General.

Then we have Tou stating that he is a Great General of the Heavens back when he was just a General.

The same Tou that Ouki stated was not inferior to him in any way despite him never having been a Great General.

There has never been anything about a "Weight of a Great General", only the "Weight of a General". No mention of differing amounts either.
Ouki said : " a general obtains the responsability of overseeing thousands and ten of thousands of lives" : who oversaw more lives ? RSJ or Gyou'un ? RSJ was the great general of all the army while Gyou'un commanded only one part of it. Same for Renpa, Renpa oversees all of his army, had the biggest responsability in it. Rinko doesn't have more responsabilities than Renpa.

Ouki also said : "and the greatest of honors" : who had the greatest honors ? Likely ones who is a great general, a part of the three great heavens etc. It means those people were particular. Renpa had more honors than Gyou'un.

Oukai concluded saying that those two things made "weight".

Then we have Tou stating that he is a Great General of the Heavens back when he was just a General.
I think Tou has more weight now, after taking charge of Ouki army than when he was Ouki right hand.

Tou said that it was his pride to defend and maintain Ouki's name. Ouki death make Tou the main guy of the army the one in charge to defend and honor Ouki legacy and that likely gave him strength and weight


 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#26
Gyou'un, an underling who had a similar role to Tou/Rinko/Kashibou/Rokoumi/etc did for their respective generals
Your post is cookoo for Coa Coa Puffs. Literally the single most wrong post in the entire thread.

First off, this quote is Completely wrong. Gyou’Un is a subordinate General unlike any other accept for perhaps Shouheikun, and even this is my headcanon.

Gyou’Un was literally Rinshoujou’s entire offense. All of the other Generals you cited don’t fulfill anything even close to the roll that Gyou’Un filled for Rin Shou Jou. Gyou’Un was RSJ’s Great General Slayer, when RSJ needed something done offensively, he drew his Sword, which was Gyou’Un. Gyou’Un’s offensive strength is literally Great General level because this is what he literally was, a Great General’s offensive power.

None of the vassals you cited even came close to fulfilling this roll. Kaishibou and Rinko were only one aspect of Renpa’s offense, of which Renpa himself was a component. The offensive burden of the Renpa army was shouldered by all of his Generals equally, while the offensive burden of Rin Shou Jou was shouldered solely by Gyou’Un and no one else. (Don’t confuse offensive burden with martial burden, both of which Gyou’Un was the greatest of RSJ’s anyway lol).

Tou was also similar, he fulfilled whatever role Ouki needed him to fulfill which wasn’t necessarily related to offense. At Bayou, Ouki himself moved to slay Houken while if Rin Shou Jou were facing Houken, the task of slaying Houken would’ve fallen to Gyou’Un.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of who Gyou’Un is and what “the Sword of Rinshoujou” means. Gyou’Un is always going to be the one who RSJ sends to slay the enemy Great General, as it has been stated that Gyou’Un slayed several Great Generals before.

To even compare him to Rinko or Kaishobou who were both utilized solely for slaying minor commanders or otherwise reinforcing Renpa’s own strikes, shows that you don’t understand who Gyou’Un is (probably why you rank Kaishobou above him lol).

The Weight of a general is not merely "will of your fallen friends". In fact I'm not even sure where this idea is coming from.
It comes from probably the exact Chapter from which you debunked your next point:

Each rank has a different set of weight, because each rank leads different number of individuals. Shin who led 8000 men has a higher weight than somebody like Mouten or Ouhon who led only 5000. Because the rank of a general in idea is no different than hundred or thousand man commander, just a position. But what seperates the rank of a general compared to a 5-000 man commander is the number of people one is responsible for.
Where Ouki instantly debunks everything you just typed by explicitly saying that a Great General is no different than any previous rank. Then you cited Renpa saying a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with individual combat power and if anything debunks the notion that being a Great General means Renpa is stronger than Gyou’Un, when he objectively is not.

Willpower of 100, Strength of a hundred, knowledge of a hundred, experience of a hundred, and the luck of a hundred. How does one gain all of those things?
How did Rin Shou Jou become a Great General then? Or Ko Shou? It was outright stated that neither of them had any fighting talent, and yet Rin Shou Jou was regarded as Renpa’s equal despite having no martial talent.


Explain to me how martial talent is not necessary to become a Great General equal to Renpa??

Of course, the answer is obvious, and it’s that Gyou’Un shouldered the burden of being a martial General on par with the strongest Great Generals of all time, with weight equal to Renpa and Gyou’Un regardless of what minute nitpicks you come up with to try and debunk what Hara has explicitly stated.

“The Martial Might of Zhao”, not “one of the Martial Mights of Zhao” or “the Martial Might of Zhao excluding Renpa and Kaishibou”. Gyou’Un was straight up stronger than both in a fight, and by posting an explanation for how you can become a Great General like Renpa due to factors that have nothing to do with individual fighting ability, you’ve proven that.
 
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#27
Your post is cookoo for Coa Coa Puffs. Literally the single most wrong post in the entire thread.
Now that's not possible bro since you have made multiple posts with this Gyou'un non-sense that ignores nearly the entire manga, but only looks at selective scans related to Gyou'un. :sadgrin:

First off, this quote is Completely wrong. Gyou’Un is a subordinate General unlike any other accept for perhaps Shouheikun, and even this is my headcanon.
Lmao my boy compared him to the Chief himself.. what the fuck.. Oh god no stop this crap.

Not really nothing really special about Gyou'un as an subordinate general. He was the strongest combatant under a strategical general. Filling a role that's pretty much like Akou's, who's the strongest combatant under Ousen a strategical general. So his actual role is nothing special, most strategical generals are set up exactly the same way Rinshoujou is. Which is they have strong combatant generals under them who specialize in various things. Gyou'un specializing in carrying out part of Rinshoujou's offense.


Gyou’Un was literally Rinshoujou’s entire offense. All of the other Generals you cited don’t fulfill anything even close to the roll that Gyou’Un filled for Rin Shou Jou. Gyou’Un was RSJ’s Great General Slayer, when RSJ needed something done offensively, he drew his Sword, which was Gyou’Un. Gyou’Un’s offensive strength is literally Great General level because this is what he literally was, a Great General’s offensive power.



None of the vassals you cited even came close to fulfilling this roll. Kaishibou and Rinko were only one aspect of Renpa’s offense, of which Renpa himself was a component. The offensive burden of the Renpa army was shouldered by all of his Generals equally, while the offensive burden of Rin Shou Jou was shouldered solely by Gyou’Un and no one else. (Don’t confuse offensive burden with martial burden, both of which Gyou’Un was the greatest of RSJ’s anyway lol)

Tou was also similar, he fulfilled whatever role Ouki needed him to fulfill which wasn’t necessarily related to offense. At Bayou, Ouki himself moved to slay Houken while if Rin Shou Jou were facing Houken, the task of slaying Houken would’ve fallen to Gyou’Un.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of who Gyou’Un is and what “the Sword of Rinshoujou” means. Gyou’Un is always going to be the one who RSJ sends to slay the enemy Great General, as it has been stated that Gyou’Un slayed several Great Generals before.

To even compare him to Rinko or Kaishobou who were both utilized solely for slaying minor commanders or otherwise reinforcing Renpa’s own strikes, shows that you don’t understand who Gyou’Un is (probably why you rank Kaishobou above him lol).

The first sentence of this quote is headcanon. He's never been stated to be Rinshoujou's entire offense, as that's practically impossible. This is like calling Chougouyrou , Rinshoujou's entire defense. It's non-practical. Not sure if you just don't remember the make up of the Rinshoujou army and that's why you're claiming that headcanon, or if it's a statement that was made in the manga and I missed it. If it's the latter, just post the panel and i'll be more than happy to correct my standing on him being the entire offense of Rinshoujou. But if there's no manga statement backing it up, let's stop claiming it.


Rinshoujou's lack of martial prowess was covered by multiple generals under him, not just Gyou'un.


Out of those multiple generals that shouldered the martial might for Rinshoujou, Gyou'un was the strongest:

Now it's actually cute in order to counter this you made some crap up about "don't confuse martial prowess with offensive prowess".. Yet you continue to brag about his martial prowess because he ran the offense. Homie the thread ain't about offensive prowess, it's about martial prowess. Fact is Rinshoujou had other mfs on his squad outside of Gyou'un who along with Gyou'un helped carry his martial weight. He was the "Sword" of Rinshoujou because he was the highest martially, that's it. It's not me who doesn't know what Hara meant when he put Gyou'un is the sword of Rinshoujou, it's you.

As for the "entire offense", that's also as I said earlier is non-practical due to the make up of the Rinshoujou Army.

Rinshoujou -> 10 vassal generals (no hierarchy between them)

Out of those 10, Gyou'un was the closest to Rinshoujou, and was the strongest martially, thus he was recognized as Rinshoujou's sword. Chougouryou being the second closest to Rinshoujou and specialized in strategy was recognized as Rinshoujou's shield. While the other generals didn't "specialize" in anything as far as we know, and ofc Hara wouldn't bother going into details about them as they died shortly after Rinshoujou.

Now going by your logic, because Gyou'un is the sword, thus he's the entire offense. That means Chougouyurou as the shield is the entire defense. So what in god's blue earth were the other 8 who were on similar level to them doing if they were neither part of the offense or defense?? Drinking tea & playing chess with Rinshoujou at the HQ, while CHG & Gyou'un two-manned other GGs? Lol.
But like I said, if you have a panel, where a statement is made about Gyou'un being the entire offense, then I'll conceded. If you don't, not gonna bother with this further.


As for Tou/Kashibou/etc, to get a better assessment of that, we'll need to look at the army make ups of Ouki & Renpa vs Rinshoujou.

Rinshoujou -> 10 heroes
Ouki -> Tou (Lt.)-> 5 commanders
Renpa -> Kashibou (Leader of the heavenly Kings)-> other 3 heavenly Kings

11 vs 7 vs 5 is what we're looking at. Now based on Ouki's underlings vs Renpa's underling. It's become very clear the more underlings a general has, the lesser the overall quality of those underlings will be. For example, Renpa has Genpou, somebody who could serve as the chief of military for a nation similar to Shouheikun. Despite that Kashibou is the one who is the leader of the heavenly kings, meaning Kashibou is somebody who's superior as a overall general to that Genpou. Then you have Rinko who's well-known for his destructive offense. And then there's the arrow guy too. Compared to that Ouki had Tou and then 5 normal generals, with 2 of them being fairly decent, while the likes of Kanou not being any better than somebody like current Sosui.

Now Renpa has 4 underlings known as "heavenly Kings", Rinshoujou had 10 individuals known as "Heroes".
4 vs 10.
Rinshoujou has multiple generals under him who carry his martial might. Meaning they sort of balance each other out.

And as already said before measuring stick for Martial Might in Zhao are Kashibou & Renpa, as used by Chougouryou himself.

As to your point about Renpa = Rinshoujou despite not being a martial person. Well it's simple, strategy. Gyou'un called Riboku the strongest Three Heaven in History of Zhao. Do you think he was talking about martial prowess? No. It was about him being the superior general compared to anybody else in Zhao's history. And how is Riboku that? Strategy, he's the best strategist & possibly leader out there to have existed and that's how he ended up being considered above the likes of Renpa who are great martially & tactics wise. It has nothing to do with their underlings. Ko Shou was the best strategist in Qin, thus he was able to match it up with the rest. Rinshoujou is the same way his intellect allowed him to match others up. Rinshoujou & Ko Shou as far as we know are exceptions to the rule. Their sheer intellect made them rival the likes of Ouki/Renpa/Hakuki/etc. Rinshoujou had everything Renpa mentioned except for the "Strength of 100", but that was made up by his intellect that exceed everybody else's.


As for representing Zhao's martial might. The quote is, "He wore the mantel that symbolize Zhao's martial might". It's not that he himself was the martial might of Zhao. He wore a mantel that symbolized Zhao's martial might. If you bother going back to the coalition war arc, Ei Sei stated that Shin showcased to the world Qin's Martial might. Did that confirm Shin > Moubu? of course not, Moubu also showcased Qin's martial might when he beat Kanmei, the Duke did it too, etc etc, but they weren't mentioned lol. Gyou'un was Rinshoujou's sword, the mantel that would be a symbol of Zhao's martial might. Zhao's martial might isn't just 1 person, its all the strong combatants that exist in Zhao.

It comes from probably the exact Chapter from which you debunked your next point:
Nah bro, just your headcanon like two other stuff up there. Will of a general isn't based on nakama power or stuff like that

Where Ouki instantly debunks everything you just typed by explicitly saying that a Great General is no different than any previous rank. Then you cited Renpa saying a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with individual combat power and if anything debunks the notion that being a Great General means Renpa is stronger than Gyou’Un, when he objectively is not.
Not sure why you would quote without bothering to check the panels I've posted. Lol. Let's go through this again.

He starts off with this point: To be a general is to be burdened.



He then explains that since he was 13 he's lost countless of comrades and buried hundreds of thousands of foes.


All the hopes & wishes of the comrades he's lost & the enemies he's slaughtered dwell heavily upon his shoulders.


Now based on the above one would assume here's talking about some magical sparks or whatever.. but no, since he continues further and explains it more.. starts of saying that a general is the same as a hundred or any other type of a commander. It's a position, that's it, a rank like any other.


Then he says "HOWEVER", only a select few people reach that rank. He's here making the rank of a general more special than other ranks.


People who overcome numerous brushes with death and accomplish numerous deeds achieve the rank of a general, something Gyou'un achieved of course.

So after saying "general" is just a rank like 100-man commander and etc, he goes on to point what makes being a general special compared to those ranks. So he's not debunking me, he's actually supporting me. He would be debunking me if he had ended his statement with that, but he started it off with it, then said "HOWEVER", and then goes on to explain what sets a general apart.

Now what sets the general apart from the others? Responsibility of overseeing thousands of lives. The burden of being responsible for thousands of lives.



Ouki here makes it clear, Weight of a general is related to responsibility. The bigger armies you controlled, the bigger responsibility you had for life, and thus one carried a bigger weight. Now that we understand the premise of what "Weight of a General" is, the argument relating to this is about who carries the bigger weight Renpa or Gyou'un.

The more life one is responsible for killing and leading, the higher the weight one has. Which would be Rinshoujou, Ouki, Renpa, etc.

I didn't cite Renpa for individual power, I cited Renpa for how a Great General has a superior weight than even a normal general. Because they have gone through more shit than a normal general, they have bore bigger responsibilities and burdens than a general like Gyou'un, who was one of the offensive powers of Rinshoujou.

You don't see me out here claiming Tou bears the same burden as Ouki, because Ouki said Tou was his equal ( a statement bigger than anything Gyou'un got, btw). Because it'd be ridiculous to claim that, as Tou wasn't the one leading those armies and wasn't giving orders like Ouki was. Does that mean Tou doesn't have weight of a general? of course he does, but he doesn't carry one bigger than Ouki. No different than Gyou'un & Rinshoujou. Rinshoujou carried a bigger weight than Gyou'un.


Renpa in this manga has the greatest feat bar Gakuki, which is that he stalemated Ouki & Hakuki for 2 straight years. During those two years, he was responsible for the lives of 400,000, along with however hundreds of thousands of the Qin he killed during that time. Gyou'un doesn't even have the responsibility of leading 100,000 men.. let alone 400,000. So you're gonna miss me and the others with this notion that a underling general is going to bear the same weight as The Legendary Renpa.
 
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Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#28
Now that's not possible bro since you have made multiple posts with this Gyou'un non-sense that ignores nearly the entire manga, but only looks at selective scans related to Gyou'un. :sadgrin:
You are a Gyou'Un hater lol. I don't say that to insult you, I say that because you are hell-bent on downplaying Gyou'Un even beneath the featless Kaishibou for ridiculous reasons when the Manga has explicitly painted him as being stronger than Ren Pa. Your entire argument boils down to the idea that Ren Pa is stronger than Gyou'Un because he was a Great General, which is an argument that holds no weight at all (pun intended) as being a powerful warrior isn't even a requirement to reach the rank of Great General like I've pointed out multiple times now, with people like Rin Shou Jou, Ko Shou, Rei Ou, Hou Mei, etc.

Lmao my boy compared him to the Chief himself.. what the fuck.. Oh god no stop this crap.
I literally can't think of a better character to compare Gyou'Un to in terms of the role he served in the Rin Shou Jou army aside from maybe Ran Bi Haku to Rei Ou. None of the other Generals in this manga can you claim fulfill the same role as people like Shou Hei Kun and Gyou'Un. You cited Rin Ko because he's really good at killing 1,000 Man Commanders (lol) and Kai Shi Bou who is like a discount Ren Pa in war, but Gyou'Un fills a role on the battlefield that Rin Shou Jou literally could not fill. Don't worry, I'll address the rest of your Gyou'Un hate later.

Gyou'un specializing in carrying out part of Rinshoujou's offense.
Not "a part", Gyou'Un was literally the entire thing:


It was Gyou'Un's job to slay enemy Great Generals which is literally the single most important job in any given battle. Taking the head of the enemy Generals, even top tier Great Generals like the Qin 6. This task literally fell to Gyou'Un alone, none of Rin Shou Jou's other vassals shared this responsibility insofar as we can tell. More on that in a bit.

The first sentence of this quote is headcanon. He's never been stated to be Rinshoujou's entire offense, as that's practically impossible. This is like calling Chougouyrou , Rinshoujou's entire defense. It's non-practical. Not sure if you just don't remember the make up of the Rinshoujou army and that's why you're claiming that headcanon, or if it's a statement that was made in the manga and I missed it. If it's the latter, just post the panel and i'll be more than happy to correct my standing on him being the entire offense of Rinshoujou. But if there's no manga statement backing it up, let's stop claiming it.
The difference with Chou Garyuu, iirc, is that Chou Garyuu was explicitly stated to be replicating Rin Shou Jou's own tactics when he used the "Sifting Sands" formation. So it's not a fair comparison to Gyou'Un as Chou Garyuu was in reality RSJ's Akou, a strong martial general who could replicate some of RSJ's own tactics, while there was no one else in RSJ's army who could fulfill the role that Gyou'Un filled, the Great General Slayer and Rin Shou Jou's sword. If I find the chapter I'll link you but it's the chapter where the Sifting Sands was revealed.

Rinshoujou's lack of martial prowess was covered by multiple generals under him, not just Gyou'un.
Sure. But the strongest among them, and the one who was entrusted to slay the enemy Great Generals was Gyou'Un. Literally if RSJ and Ren Pa fought it would be Gyou'Un who sent Ren Pa's head flying. And rest assured, Gyou'Un sends anybody in Kaishibou and Bananji's strength-tier's head flying.

Now it's actually cute in order to counter this you made some crap up about "don't confuse martial prowess with offensive prowess".. Yet you continue to brag about his martial prowess because he ran the offense. Homie the thread ain't about offensive prowess, it's about martial prowess. Fact is Rinshoujou had other mfs on his squad outside of Gyou'un who along with Gyou'un helped carry his martial weight. He was the "Sword" of Rinshoujou because he was the highest martially, that's it. It's not me who doesn't know what Hara meant when he put Gyou'un is the sword of Rinshoujou, it's you.
I'll brag about both because Gyou'Un was top tier in both Martial prowess and offensive prowess lol.

Keep in mind, I was probably the only person on this forum who said that Man'U could actually be stronger than Mou Bu. Read the last chapter yet? Lol

I also said that Ko Chou could probably be stronger than Ri Boku, which almost everyone dismissed before Ko Chou single-handedly held off Ou Sen, Kan Ki, Yo Tan Wa, and the new Qin Trio by himself for a year straight lol. (Ko Chou is not > Ri Boku but they are in the same tier, GG level).

So yes, there is a distinction between Martial Ability and Offensive Ability, but Gyou'Un is Great General level in both regards so I'll often blend the two together lol. More on that later.

It's become very clear the more underlings a general has, the lesser the overall quality of those underlings will be.
Yeah you pulled this idea straight from your ass lol. Go Kei had 2 subordinate Generals, Ren Pa had 4. Bet money you don't even remember the names of Go Kei's subordinate Generals (neither do I quite frankly lol). Really I feel like I could come up with plenty of examples that debunk this ridiculousness.

As to your point about Renpa = Rinshoujou despite not being a martial person. Well it's simple, strategy. Gyou'un called Riboku the strongest Three Heaven in History of Zhao. Do you think he was talking about martial prowess? No. It was about him being the superior general compared to anybody else in Zhao's history. And how is Riboku that? Strategy, he's the best strategist & possibly leader out there to have existed and that's how he ended up being considered above the likes of Renpa who are great martially & tactics wise. It has nothing to do with their underlings. Ko Shou was the best strategist in Qin, thus he was able to match it up with the rest. Rinshoujou is the same way his intellect allowed him to match others up. Rinshoujou & Ko Shou as far as we know are exceptions to the rule. Their sheer intellect made them rival the likes of Ouki/Renpa/Hakuki/etc. Rinshoujou had everything Renpa mentioned except for the "Strength of 100", but that was made up by his intellect that exceed everybody else's.
So now we've established that being a Great General has nothing to do with Martial Ability and that it is totally possible to become one without lifting up a weapon in war. Great lol. Glad you agreed with something that obliterates your entire perspective on this issue anyway as your entire argument boils down to "Ren Pa was a Great General and Gyou'Un wasn't!!"

As for representing Zhao's martial might. The quote is, "He wore the mantel that symbolize Zhao's martial might". It's not that he himself was the martial might of Zhao. He wore a mantel that symbolized Zhao's martial might.
And the award for Olympic Gold in the category of mental gymnastics goes to...

So tell me, why didn't anyone ever say this about Ren Pa? The implications behind this hype are easy for us to understand. Gyou'Un was literally the strongest warrior in all of Zhao at a time where Ren Pa was at his peak as a warrior.

But wait, go ahead and tell me that Rin Shou Jou would defeat Gyou'Un in a fight because Rin Shou Jou was a Great General.

You don't see me out here claiming Tou bears the same burden as Ouki, because Ouki said Tou was his equal ( a statement bigger than anything Gyou'un got, btw).
No, but we do see Shin in-canon saying that Gyou'Un, Ren Pa, and Gai Mou all had equivalent weight. I'm less concerned with how you'll backflip around the manga to disregard in-canon explanations that you don't like, and more concerned with how these characters are reliably portrayed inside the Manga itself.

First, we were told Ren Pa = Kai Shi Bou. Nothing wrong with that, Kai Shi Bou is one of the strongest warriors in the Manga.

Then, we were told Ba Nan Ji = Ren Pa = Kai Shi Bou. Okay nothing wrong with that either, all of these dudes are colossi.

Then, we were explicitly shown that Gyou'Un > Ba Nan Ji in the Akou fight, and we were also explicitly told that Gyou'Un is considered of having been the strongest warrior that the Zhao had in Ren Pa's own era.

You: "But Ren Pa shared a rank with people who can't even fight!!!"

Renpa in this manga has the greatest feat bar Gakuki, which is that he stalemated Ouki & Hakuki for 2 straight years.
How prey tell, did Ren Pa do this?

Oh yeah, 100% strictly defensive tactics in which he probably didn't pick his glaive up to go to the battlefield even once lol. So literally Ren Pa's greatest feat doesn't even involve his own fighting ability.

So you're gonna miss me and the others with this notion that a underling general is going to bear the same weight as The Legendary Renpa.
Tell Hara the same thing, because he has slapped you in the face with this reality and you are in denial.

I knew you were a Gyou'Un hater but I never knew it was this bad my guy lol.
 
#29
Renpa is taking this one for sure. Gyo'Un can represent all the military might but Renpa is more than just a brute. Renpa has shown some extreme offensive skills and he also carries the weight of the GG. Gyo'Un was outsmarted by Ouhon which I don't see happening with Renpa. Gyo'Un and Bannaki was both engaged by Akou for fair amount of time too which leads me to believe that Gyo'Un would have high/ extreme diffed Akou in 1 Vs 1. Renpa should be on his own league.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#30
This thread reminds me of Shanks vs Mihawk tbh, with Gyou’Un being Mihawk, the objectively stronger of the two based on everything we understand about the two characters, and Ren Pa being Shanks, who people are siding with for reasons that are either complete nonsense or just plain wrong tbh.

Just a friendly reminder that Gyou’Un has weight on par with Ren Pa and Gai Mou




On top of being hyped above Prime Ren Pa and being definitively placed above people like Kai Shi Bou and Ba Nan Ji who Ren Pa was repeatedly stated to be equal to lol.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'𝖘 𝕾𝖕𝖆𝖜𝖓
#31
Based off Gyou'un "once bearing the mantle that symbolized Zhao's martial might" I would say that Prime Gyou'un can beat Prime Renpa in a duel, extreme difficulty, 6/10 times.
 
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