Versus Battle Renpa vs Gyou'un

[Blackbeard]

TIME FOR THE CHADEST FIGHT OF THE CENTURY

"After all if it's a head on clash against Renpa... Including me, there is not a single commander alive right now capable of besting him" - Riboku

VS

"To think that this man would be capable of something at this level... This Inhuman Might. My ploys using deception and trickery? Absolutely Useless! Not one has any effect on him!" - Gu Nei

- Just a 1v1 duel
- Both are mounted

Alright. I was talking about this in @Admiral Lee Hung's profile and i originally planned to reply in the general Kingdom thread but thought for a second, why not make an actual vs thread for that and see everyone's opinion on the fight? It would be much better lol. I honestly think Renpa would take it although with very high difficulty.

The plan back in Sanyou was devised to destroy the Qin HQ in one fell swoop but it actually failed with Rinko's death and Renpa was obligated to personally lead the charge with no outside assistance:

Spoiler

There's absolutely no narrative reason for Renpa's retreat after having his blade reach Mougou's neck other than plot convenience. @Admiral Lee Hung i don't necessarily think Renpa is the only capable offense in his army but he's not only the vital offense either, just because he has some pretty damn OP vassals doesn't mean he's not the main attacking force. Rinko was more like a swift killing machine to slay enemy commanders, it's sort of like Ouki letting Tou loose to kill Chou Sou in Bayou. But both against Gaku Jou/Mougou, Renpa personally charged their HQ despite that both fully dedicated their military life to study and counter Renpa's strategies.

Genpo compared Kaishibou's destructive capabilities to Renpa, but Bananji's arm strength was also compared to Kaishibou. Regardless of these claims, Renpa was still shown to be superior to someone who is physically more powerful than him (Mougou).

Calling all of our Ousen Lackeys:

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@Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Arara @MarineHQ62 @TheAncientCenturion @Den_Den_Mushi @ranady @Dark Admiral @Shanks @Greenbeard @Patryipe @Bullet @RayanOO @Xione @Topi Jerami @mad monk @zaman @FaradaySloth @OmegaPsyche

 

[RayanOO]

As always I back up Renpa in this fight

 

[MarineHQ]

The God Renpa takes this High diff at worst.
I think Renpa is the strongest all rounder general in Zhao's history despite Gyou'un claiming that Riboku was the "strongest" of all time.

I happily live in denial if it's for the GOAT

 

[Patryipe]

Renpa, no doubt.

 

[Bullet]

Renpa for sure
High diff

 

[zaman]

Renpa all day. I even question the fact that he would win against Ouken

 

[Owl Ki]

In a strictly 1v1 dual, my money would be on Gyou'un earning an extreme diff victory.

Gyou’un is praised as having been the symbol of Zhao’s martial might during an era when Renpa and Kaishibou were actively waging wars for Zhao.

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Akou was also noted to being overwhelmed by Gyou’un.

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This is the same Akou who is consistently portrayed to be Bananji’s equal.

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Who in turn was compared to the likes of Renpa and Kaishibou when it comes to martial prowess, by someone who personally knew and fought alongside both of the aforementioned individuals.

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Being compared to Kaishibou does not give wriggle room to place Bananji below Renpa in martial might as Kaishibou was regarded as a martial equal to Renpa by Genpo, a highly intelligent individual that knew both Renpa and Kaishibou for decades.

Spoiler

Shin directly compared Gyou'un to a purely dualist focused Great General based on his previous personal experience.

Spoiler

By directly comparing Gyou'un to Gaimou, Shin also indirectly compares Gyou'un to Renpa as Shin compared Gaimou to Renpa.

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Gyou'un himself states that he used to regularly exchange blows with Legendary Great Generals (i.e. the Qin Six and Wei Seven).

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All this together paints a picture that Gyou'un is a superior dualist to Renpa. With all these panels combined, I do not see a convincing argument for Renpa >> Gyou'un. At best, Renpa is close to Gyou'un but still inferior.

Gyou'un victory, extreme diff. @Blackbeard

 

[ranady]

As far as I remember, I think renpa would take this.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

I'm definitely going with Gyou'Un Sama lol. Why not, we need more Kingdom discussion up in this bitch lol.

So, on top of the stuff @Owl Ki posted, there are plenty of reasons to believe that Gyou'Un was martially above Ren Pa, which we can get into right now. But first, let's address some things:

I think Renpa is the strongest all rounder general in Zhao's history despite Gyou'un claiming that Riboku was the "strongest" of all time.

I happily live in denial if it's for the GOAT

In terms of versatility, Ren Pa may very well be the strongest Zhao General of all time lol. Man could do everything.

He was capble of forming Grand Strategies for Campaigns as he was personally trained in tactics and strategy by Gen Po, who Ren Pa himself stated was capable of serving as Zhao's Shou Hei Kun (Commander in Chief of the Military), and yet Ren Pa's strategic ability is so great that at San You, Gen Po didn't even touch the grand strategy of the battle, Ren Pa forumlated the entire thing by himself lol.

Ren Pa was also, some freaking how, both a Strategic and an Instinctual General with a literal Photographic Memory, who dismantled Mougou's fortress specifically designed to counter Ren Pa after studying him for a life time, using his Photographic Memory and his Instinctual Prowess.

And of course, as Ren Pa himself states, his Body was forged from 40 years of fighting on Legendary Battlefields against Legendary Generals.

Not just for Zhao, Ren Pa may literally be the most versatile General in all of Kingdom, with his only real competition for this title being Ou Ki who was similar to Ren Pa in the sense that Ou Ki could literally do anything on the battlefield lol. But let's get one thing straight:

Versatility =/= Personal Fighting Strength

This is something we all know. Ren Pa has arguably the greatest Versatility in the Manga, but this does not mean he would actually beat someone like Gyou'Un in a fight.

I was planning on addressing some reasons people say Ren Pa > Gyou'Un but most posts on this thread are very vague and no one really states why they think Ren Pa would win this really lol. So I'll really just say one thing:

"Ren Pa is one of the Greatest Great Generals of all time, of course he would defeat Gyou'Un in a fight"

The fact that Ren Pa is a Great General does not automatically place him as being a stronger warrior than Gyou'Un. As I stated above, Ren Pa is known for the fact that he is amazingly versatile, and sure I'd place him as a top 10 Warrior in the Manga from everything we know about him, but the fact that Ren Pa made it to the rank of Great General does not in and of itself place him above Gyou'Un. Rin Shou Jou himself was Gyou'Un's own superior and a Great General himself, but if it ever came down to it, Gyou'Un would murder Rin Shou Jou with ease, as Rin Shou Jou was referred to as Ren Pa's equal as a General despite having zero fighting ability himself:

Spoiler

We will get to some reasons that Gyou'Un seems stronger than Ren Pa to me in a second, but first a few more things:

There's absolutely no narrative reason for Renpa's retreat after having his blade reach Mougou's neck other than plot convenience.

I disagree with this as Ren Pa explains the reasons for his retreat in detail, those reasons being that Ou Sen and Kan Ki had essentially check-mated him, and even if he would've slayed Mou Gou it would've been pretty much impossible for him to defeat those two under the circumstances presented lol. Just a brief point there. Anyway,

i don't necessarily think Renpa is the only capable offense in his army but he's not only the vital offense either, just because he has some pretty damn OP vassals doesn't mean he's not the main attacking force.

The only Campaign that we actually saw Ren Pa participate in in detail is San You, so I can only talk about what we've actually seen from him in action. And in San You, Ren Pa did not make a single move from an offensive perspective that did not rely on sandwiching his opponents alongside his own Heavenly Kings.

Ren Pa made exactly two offensive moves at San You:
1. The move to slay Ou Sen
2. The move to slay Mougou

The first move revolved around Ren Pa and Kyou En together attacking Ou Sen at the same time, and the second specifically revolved around both Rin Ko and Kaishibou striking Mougou's HQ at the same time that Ren Pa himself did.

Ren Pa literally meant to have himself and two other of his Heavenly Kings strike against Mougou at once and crush him in overwhelming fashion, not to hit Mou Gou by himself and decide the vital clash against Mou Gou solo.

Notice that this is fundamentally different from what Ou Ki did against Hou Ken and his army, Ou Ki specifically sent Tou off to slay Chou Sou while Ou Ki faced Hou Ken on his own. This is not the first time that Ou Ki himself seems to personally attack Great Generals by himself, as Ou Ki seemingly ended the Battle of Chou Hei by himself:

Spoiler

So there is basis in the belief that Ou Ki himself was the vital offensive force of his own army, while Ren Pa seems to be more strategically focused and relies more on the momentum of his own Heavenly Kings in War.

At least, from the like, 4 days we saw of Ren Pa fighting lol. Things could be different in different scenarios but I can only comment on what we have.

Genpo compared Kaishibou's destructive capabilities to Renpa, but Bananji's arm strength was also compared to Kaishibou. Regardless of these claims, Renpa was still shown to be superior to someone who is physically more powerful than him (Mougou).

You brought up another point that I was planning to bring up myself:

That Ren Pa has explicitly been stated to be in the same Strength Tier as Kaishibou and Bananji. On multiple occasions.

Now, I know people on this forum reject this claim even though it's been stated repeatedly, but I don't lol. As far as I'm concerned, Bananji = Kaishibou =< Ren Pa as warriors.

Okay, so keep that in mind as I start to talk about Gyou'Un and why he was probably above Ren Pa in strength.

The first thing to note about Gyou'Un is his sheer hype.

Spoiler

Gyou'Un was explicitly referred to as "The Martial Might of Zhao", in an era where Ren Pa was an active Great General and should've been in his physical prime. There is no way to rationalize the fact that Gyou’Un received explicit Martial Hype above Ren Pa while still believing that Ren Pa is the stronger warrior.

Furthermore, Shin directly compared the weight behind Gyou'Un's blows to Gai Mou himself:

Spoiler

Another explicit confirman that Gyou'Un's blows are just as mighty as the Great Generals (and Gai Mou himself is a Great General who seems to have no abilities in warfare whatsoever aside from just being an absolute colossus of a warrior, and this is the man Gyou'Un was compared to).

Now, you might be thinking to yourself that the strength of Gyou'Un's blows might be on par with Great General Gai Mou, but that Gai Mou outclasses him in skill and thus Ren Pa would too, but look at what Shin says about Gyou'Un in the bottom right panel here:

Spoiler

Gyou'Un is "damn fast" according to Shin, and this is hype that even Gai Mou did not receive from Shin. Now this doesn't mean that Gyou'Un is faster or more skilled than Gai Mou or Ren Pa as a warrior, but it is just to point out that the hype around Gyou'Un doesn't revolve around the strength of his blows but his speed as well.

Gyou'Un's speed gets hyped again later against Ou Hou

Spoiler

Gyou'Un seems to be pretty intimately familiar with Ou Ki's glaive:

Spoiler

Notice that one of Gyou'Un's men remarks in shock that Shin's Glavie survived one of Gyou'Un's "Glaive-Shattering Blows", the implication of this being that Gyou'Un typically shatters most glaives in one strike, which is absolutely bonkers hype when you consider that we have seen stronger soldiers (not even Generals, soldiers mind you) block blows from people like Tou and even Mou Bu just recently.

Anyway, the implication of this scene here being that Gyou'Un has personally encountered Ou Ki before, which really wouldn't be shocking as we also know that Rin Ko himself broke through Ou Ki's defenses and landed a hit on Ou Ki at one point:

Spoiler

And Gyou'Un also explicitly states that he fought to claim the heads of all of the Qin Six Great Generals:

Spoiler

Which includes such powerful warriors as Ou Ki, Kyou, Ou Kotsu, (and really Shi Ba Saku and Haku Ki likely were very strong warriors themselves as well, not Ko Shou as it was explicitly stated that he had no fighting ability).

Speaking of slaying the Great Generals, let's talk about the Rai Goku:

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This is a tactic specifically created by Rin Shou Jou, to slay the Qin 6

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And it is explicitly stated that Gyou'Un has slayed Generals and Great Generals before using this technique. And keep in mind, other Great Generals could be people even as powerful as Man'U who we are currently seeing overpower Mou Bu. Man'U being a complete unknown to us but also attaining such a massive level of strength, it's not impossible that Gyou'Un slayed people of such caliber before.

In fact, Ou Hon only believes that he can slay Gyou'Un specifically because he also slayed another Martial Great General in Shi Ei, who reached the rank of Fire Dragon by winning suicide-mission after suicide-mission and honed his spear in hellacious conditions

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The point that I am trying to make with all this, is that it is absolutely clear that Gyou'Un is one of the strongest warriors in the entire Manga despite never being made into a Great General himself. As we might expect of the man called The Sword of Rin Shou Jou (referred to as Ren Pa's equal, and Gyou'Un was Rin Shou Jou's offense and his answer to the Martial Strength of other Great Generals.

Now, let's get back to Bananji for a second. Ren Pa was stated to be an equal to Bananji, and we actually did receive a direct comparison between Kaishibou and Gyou'Un:

Spoiler

When Bananji and Akou fought equally on multiple occasions, but it was specifically highlighted by Hara that "even Gyou'Un by himself is....[Too much For Akou who is Bananji's equal as a warrior]" That last part was just added by me of course but this is the implication lol.

So let's wrap up this gargantuan tier post:

1. Gyou'Un factually has greater hype than Ren Pa as a warrior
2. Gyou'Un was explicitly and multiple times stated to have been Rin Shou Jou's Sword, and Rin Shou Jou was regarded as Ren Pa's overall equal
3. Gyou'Un has in fact slayed Great Generals in the past, and he also fought to slay the Qin 6 when Rin Shou Jou was alive
4. Ren Pa has been compared to Kaishibou and Bananji multiple times in this manga, and Hara went out of his way to highlight Gyou'Un as being superior to Bananji.

I feel like I could go on if you can believe that but this will suffice for now lel.​

 

[RayanOO]

@Admiral Lee Hung What do you think about fight between Houken vs Gyou'un ? who will win for you ?

I was planning on addressing some reasons people say Ren Pa > Gyou'Un

I want to hear them and why you think those reasons are false ^^.

most posts on this thread are very vague and no one really states why they think Ren Pa would win this really lol.

It's because we already talked about it, too lazy to post it again.

 

[Shanks]

Renpa takes this clash in both scenarios. That man is a beast of whole other level. Charged at Qin HQ all alone and than later nearly finished of MouGu as well.

Spoiler

A different way to conclude this clash as i consider both nearly equal (but again Renpa above GyouUn) , In this series only two things matters in duels, i.e. weigh carried by one and his importance in the story. Just like latest Shin vs Houken or previous Moubu vs Kanmei. This could be considered as joke but its bitter truth and considering it, Renpa is clear winner.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

@Admiral Lee Hung how do you think a fight between Houken vs Gyou'un ? who will win for you ?

I think Houken was the strongest character in the manga when he died. First and foremost because I think a lot of the major fights involving Houken (Ouki, Duke Hyou, Shin) sort of collapse narratively if Houken wasn’t explicitly stronger than them.

I think that Houken was martially what Riboku was intellectually..number 1 lol.

That said, Gyou’Un was stronger than Shukai Shin, but I still think he’d lose to Houken as what allowed Shin to slay Houken was that he developed his most important power up that he’s ever received; the Weight of a Great General which lead him to slay Houken lol.

Houken extreme diffs.

I want to hear them and why you think those reasons are false ^^.

EDIT: the Owl strikes. There is no legitimate argument for Ren Pa being above Gyou’Un martially.

 

[Owl Ki]

TIME FOR THE CHADEST FIGHT OF THE CENTURY

"After all if it's a head on clash against Renpa... Including me, there is not a single commander alive right now capable of besting him" - Riboku

VS

"To think that this man would be capable of something at this level... This Inhuman Might. My ploys using deception and trickery? Absolutely Useless! Not one has any effect on him!" - Gu Nei

- Just a 1v1 duel
- Both are mounted

Alright. I was talking about this in @Admiral Lee Hung's profile and i originally planned to reply in the general Kingdom thread but thought for a second, why not make an actual vs thread for that and see everyone's opinion on the fight? It would be much better lol. I honestly think Renpa would take it although with very high difficulty.

The plan back in Sanyou was devised to destroy the Qin HQ in one fell swoop but it actually failed with Rinko's death and Renpa was obligated to personally lead the charge with no outside assistance:

Spoiler

There's absolutely no narrative reason for Renpa's retreat after having his blade reach Mougou's neck other than plot convenience. @Admiral Lee Hung i don't necessarily think Renpa is the only capable offense in his army but he's not only the vital offense either, just because he has some pretty damn OP vassals doesn't mean he's not the main attacking force. Rinko was more like a swift killing machine to slay enemy commanders, it's sort of like Ouki letting Tou loose to kill Chou Sou in Bayou. But both against Gaku Jou/Mougou, Renpa personally charged their HQ despite that both fully dedicated their military life to study and counter Renpa's strategies.

Genpo compared Kaishibou's destructive capabilities to Renpa, but Bananji's arm strength was also compared to Kaishibou. Regardless of these claims, Renpa was still shown to be superior to someone who is physically more powerful than him (Mougou).​

I hope you do not mind me directly addressing the points made in this post despite myself having already made a post.

There's absolutely no narrative reason for Renpa's retreat after having his blade reach Mougou's neck other than plot convenience.

I am going to strongly disagree on this one. Renpa gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why he surrendered.

Spoiler

The only way Renpa could have avoided the scenario he described was by negotiating with the Supreme Commander of the Qin Army i.e. Mougou.

If Renpa had killed Mougou then he would have to negotiate with Ousen and Kanki separately as neither had any seniority over the other in rank. Neither Ousen nor Kanki are the negotiating type, Kanki especially since without Mougou to keep him in check, Kanki would just run wild.

i don't necessarily think Renpa is the only capable offense in his army but he's not only the vital offense either, just because he has some pretty damn OP vassals doesn't mean he's not the main attacking force. Rinko was more like a swift killing machine to slay enemy commanders, it's sort of like Ouki letting Tou loose to kill Chou Sou in Bayou. But both against Gaku Jou/Mougou, Renpa personally charged their HQ despite that both fully dedicated their military life to study and counter Renpa's strategies.

I would not say that Renpa was the main attacking force in his Sanyou Army considering that 3/4 of Renpa's subordinates were solely geared towards offence.

Rinko specialised in demolishing defensive formations using tactical offense techniques to grind down and crack open opposing formations and then follow that up with a precision strike to kill the enemy commander.

Kaishibou is a Fierce General that uses his martial might in combination with his retinue of shock troops to puncture enemy defenses at a single point and then bulldoze all opposition.

Kyouen simply unleashes an all out assault against the opposition's front lines until they collapse altogether.

Renpa by comparison is nowhere near as single mindedly geared towards offence. As Major Lee pointed out, against stiff competition, we only ever saw him team up with at least one of his Heavenly Kings for offensive attacks.

Genpo compared Kaishibou's destructive capabilities to Renpa, but Bananji's arm strength was also compared to Kaishibou. Regardless of these claims, Renpa was still shown to be superior to someone who is physically more powerful than him (Mougou).

Here is the million euro question though. How did Renpa defeat Mougou despite Mougou's physical superiority?

What Renpa lacked in physical might against Mougou, he more than made up for with skill, experience and potentially speed.

Mougou had not personally fought in combat for years by that point and there was no indication made that he ever physically trained to keep himself in shape. He was a General that led from the back of his army.

Combine that with his lack of combat experience against powerful opponents and Renpa had areas that he could edge him out in.

The weaknesses that Mougou had are simply not present in Gyou'un. Gyou'un has always led from the front, always personally directed his army's main assaults, was noted to have trained to keep his skills sharp and as Major showed, he was even noted to be a fast opponent by Shin, who had already faced Gaimou by this point.

Just ask yourself this. How would Mougou fare against Gyou'un?

I think the only legitimate argument that people would say about Ren Pa beating Gyou’Un is that Renpa has weight while Gyou’Un does not. And I really don’t have a counter to this point, it’s a legit point in its own way and the only thing I can say against it is that Gyou’Un in spite of this was still hyped and portrayed above Ren Pa and his equals. “The Martial Might of Zhao”, Gyou’Un is hyped as having been Zhao’s strongest warrior in his youth, when Ren Pa was in his prime.

Whoa there, how can you say such a thing like that when I posted panels like these?

Shin directly compared Gyou'un to a purely dualist focused Great General based on his previous personal experience.

Spoiler

By directly comparing Gyou'un to Gaimou, Shin also indirectly compares Gyou'un to Renpa as Shin compared Gaimou to Renpa.

Spoiler

Gyou'un most certainly possesed the Weight of a General.

Between his physical blows being directly compared to Great Generals and the fact that Chougaryuu had that same Weight then I do not see how or why Gyou'un would not have it.

Spoiler

I also do not see the point that other users attempt to make when they say that Renpa will have "more Weight". Since when has the Weight of a General ever been portrayed as something that individuals have varying amounts of? As far as I can recall, Weight is something that a General either has got or has not got.

When Chougaryuu was claiming superiority to Shin due to his Weight of a General, Kyoukai said this in response to that claim.

Spoiler

Note how it is "He also has Weight" and not "His weight is superior". The advantage that Chougaryuu thought he had does not exist because Shin has it as well. Shin then defeats him simply through being a superior dualist. Nothing about different amounts of Weight.

So either I have missed some manga panels or the Weight of a General is something that a General has got or has not got. Lol.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

I hope you do not mind me directly addressing the points made in this post despite myself having already made a post.

I am going to strongly disagree on this one. Renpa gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why he surrendered.

Spoiler

The only way Renpa could have avoided the scenario he described was by negotiating with the Supreme Commander of the Qin Army i.e. Mougou.

If Renpa had killed Mougou then he would have to negotiate with Ousen and Kanki separately as neither had any seniority over the other in rank. Neither Ousen nor Kanki are the negotiating type, Kanki especially since without Mougou to keep him in check, Kanki would just run wild.

I would not say that Renpa was the main attacking force in his Sanyou Army considering that 3/4 of Renpa's subordinates were solely geared towards offence.

Rinko specialised in demolishing defensive formations using tactical offense techniques to grind down and crack open opposing formations and then follow that up with a precision strike to kill the enemy commander.

Kaishibou is a Fierce General that uses his martial might in combination with his retinue of shock troops to puncture enemy defenses at a single point and then bulldoze all opposition.

Kyouen simply unleashes an all out assault against the opposition's front lines until they collapse altogether.

Renpa by comparison is nowhere near as single mindedly geared towards offence. As Major Lee pointed out, against stiff competition, we only ever saw him team up with at least one of his Heavenly Kings for offensive attacks.

Here is the million euro question though. How did Renpa defeat Mougou despite Mougou's physical superiority?

What Renpa lacked in physical might against Mougou, he more than made up for with skill, experience and potentially speed.

Mougou had not personally fought in combat for years by that point and there was no indication made that he ever physically trained to keep himself in shape. He was a General that led from the back of his army.

Combine that with his lack of combat experience against powerful opponents and Renpa had areas that he could edge him out in.

The weaknesses that Mougou had are simply not present in Gyou'un. Gyou'un has always led from the front, always personally directed his army's main assaults, was noted to have trained to keep his skills sharp and as Major showed, he was even noted to be a fast opponent by Shin, who had already faced Gaimou by this point.

Just ask yourself this. How would Mougou fare against Gyou'un?

Whoa there, how can you say such a thing like that when I posted panels like these?

Gyou'un most certainly possesed the Weight of a General.

Between his physical blows being directly compared to Great Generals and the fact that Chougaryuu had that same Weight then I do not see how or why Gyou'un would not have it.

Spoiler

I also do not see the point that other users attempt to make when they say that Renpa will have "more Weight". Since when has the Weight of a General ever been portrayed as something that individuals have varying amounts of? As far as I can recall, Weight is something that a General either has got or has not got.

When Chougaryuu was claiming superiority to Shin due to his Weight of a General, Kyoukai said this in response to that claim.

Spoiler

Note how it is "He also has Weight" and not "His weight is superior". The advantage that Chougaryuu thought he had does not exist because Shin has it as well. Shin then defeats him simply through being a superior dualist. Nothing about different amounts of Weight.

So either I have missed some manga panels or the Weight of a General is something that a General has got or has not got. Lol.

Damn. That one slipped by me lol.

Ay @Blackbeard so as Owl has shown, Gyou’Un likely does have Weight as both Gai Mou (who Gyou’Un was directly compared to) had weight, Gai Mou’s Wright was directly compared to Ren Pa’s weight (and Gyou’Un again was directly compared to Gai Mou), and of course Garyuu had weight as well. So yeah I don’t see why Gyou’Un would have the ability.

In other words @RayanOO ...there really is no legitimate argument that puts Ren Pa above Gyou’Un as a warrior at this point.

 

[MarineHQ]

Damn. That one slipped by me lol.

Ay @Blackbeard so as Owl has shown, Gyou’Un likely does have Weight as both Gai Mou (who Gyou’Un was directly compared to) had weight, Gai Mou’s Wright was directly compared to Ren Pa’s weight (and Gyou’Un again was directly compared to Gai Mou), and of course Garyuu had weight as well. So yeah I don’t see why Gyou’Un would have the ability.

In other words @RayanOO ...there really is no legitimate argument that puts Ren Pa above Gyou’Un as a warrior at this point.

Wasn't Gaimou seen as unworthy of a duel for Ouki and Renpa?
The Gaimou example is actually one of my main reasons to put Renpa above Gaimou and Gyou'un.

I don't doubt that their combat capabilities are on the same level of Renpa, but Renpa is a general equal to the likes of Ouki in the "weight" they've been carrying.

In Kingdom it's proven several times how the Generals "Weight" > Combat stats. Let's take Houken v Ouki as a prime example.

So the way i scale it:

- Renpa ~ Gyou'un/Gaimou in terms of stats
- Renpa's "weight" >~Gyou'un/Gaimou

Thus i definitely favour Renpa in a duel and I'm quite certain that he would win.

Btw buddy, how do u rank Bananji?

 

[Owl Ki]

Wasn't Gaimou seen as unworthy of a duel for Ouki and Renpa?
The Gaimou example is actually one of my main reasons to put Renpa above Gaimou and Gyou'un.

I don't doubt that their combat capabilities are on the same level of Renpa, but Renpa is a general equal to the likes of Ouki in the "weight" they've been carrying.

Then how do you explain this?

Shin directly compared Gyou'un to a purely dualist focused Great General based on his previous personal experience.

Spoiler

By directly comparing Gyou'un to Gaimou, Shin also indirectly compares Gyou'un to Renpa as Shin compared Gaimou to Renpa.

Spoiler

Shin flat out states that Gaimou both possesses Weight and has Weight that is exactly like Renpa. Gyou'un then gets directly compared to Gaimou which indirectly compares him to Renpa in terms of Weight.

Regardless of Gaimou's beliefs on warfare, Gyou'un himself believes in inherited will. After all, he was the one that passed along Rinshoujo's will onto both Shin and Ouhon after carrying it for so many decades. Rinshoujo himself held the same beliefs as Ouki and Chougaryuu flat out talks about inherited will in detail.

There is no reason to believe that Gyou'un does not possess the Weight of a General. Lol.

In Kingdom it's proven several times how the Generals "Weight" > Combat stats. Let's take Houken v Ouki as a prime example.

So the way i scale it:

- Renpa ~ Gyou'un/Gaimou in terms of stats
- Renpa's "weight" >~Gyou'un/Gaimou

Thus i definitely favour Renpa in a duel and I'm quite certain that he would win.

Houken vs Ouki was not about Weight being superior to martial prowess, it was about Weight being superior to those without Weight. Houken believed in attaining pure martial perfection without any emotional attachments i.e. without Weight. It was because of his lack of emotional attachments (i.e. Weight) that he lost against Ouki and Shin.

If Houken had the Weight of General, he would have defeated Ouki with his superior martial prowess, just like how Shin defeated Chougaryuu with superior martial prowess when neither had the advantage in Weight due to both of them possessing it.

I also ask again, when has the Weight of a General ever been portrayed as coming in various amounts? Every time it has come up, it has simply been "X has Weight just like Y". It has never been "X has superior Weight to Y".

Ouki had Weight, Renpa has Weight, Gaimou has Weight, Gyou'un had Weight, even Chougaryuu had Weight. It never came in differing amounts, it was simply something they either had or did not have and they all had it.

 

[mad monk]

Some of you guys are crazy with your deep analisis when I still find it hard to even remembering character's names Lmao.

Major and Owl giving a really good posts but Renpa still takes this though.
Basically this

Wasn't Gaimou seen as unworthy of a duel for Ouki and Renpa?
The Gaimou example is actually one of my main reasons to put Renpa above Gaimou and Gyou'un.

I don't doubt that their combat capabilities are on the same level of Renpa, but Renpa is a general equal to the likes of Ouki in the "weight" they've been carrying.

In Kingdom it's proven several times how the Generals "Weight" > Combat stats. Let's take Houken v Ouki as a prime example.

So the way i scale it:

- Renpa ~ Gyou'un/Gaimou in terms of stats
- Renpa's "weight" >~Gyou'un/Gaimou

Thus i definitely favour Renpa in a duel and I'm quite certain that he would win.

 

[Owl Ki]

Some of you guys are crazy with your deep analisis when I still find it hard to even remembering character's names Lmao.

Major and Owl giving a really good posts but Renpa still takes this though.
Basically this

I really do not get the point behind that argument.

Gyou'un has Weight. His weight was directly compared to Great General Gaimou.

Spoiler

Great General Gaimou has Weight. His Weight was directly compared to Great General Renpa.

Spoiler

This creates an indirect comparison between Gyou'un and Renpa in terms of Weight. They all have Weight and they all have similar Weight as according to the protagonist who personally encountered and fought all three.

Where in any of all this do folk whip out Renpa >> Gyou'un due to Weight? Especially when Weight has never been portrayed as something that comes in varying amounts.

I am struggling to see points for Renpa even being equal to Gyou'un, let alone comfortably defeating him as some folk seem to be convinced.

They both have the Weight of a General and Gyou'un has superior feats and portrayel in terms of martial prowess. Gyou'un even directly overpowers a martial equal to Renpa. How does Renpa win?

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Wasn't Gaimou seen as unworthy of a duel for Ouki and Renpa?

Look I get that this fandom loves Ouki, and I do as well. He is a top 3 character in Kingdom for me in terms of my favorites and one of the most majestic and awesome that I have ever seen.

But to completely disregard one side of the issue in favor of the other, is bias:

The fact of the matter is that we really cannot say definitively that Ouki and Renpa avoided dueling Gaimou because he was “unworthy,” when Gaimou was directly compared to Renpa by Shin

“It really is exactly the same as that time”. Gaimou and Renpa also have literally the exact same combat stats at 97 in the data books if you go for that sort of thing, but I don’t lol.

It has been established in the canon that Gaimou and Renpa have the exact same weight. And then of course,

I don’t know why you guys are outright rejecting the canon like this lol. It’s fine to have your own headcanon, I have my own headcanon that I use to enhance my enjoyment as well but the portrayal is clear,

Gyou’Un does have weight directly comparable to Renpa, and thus the only argument that can be used to place Renpa over him is completely null, and we haven’t even started talking about all of the arguments that directly rank Gyou’Un above Renpa like I mentioned previously.

- Renpa ~ Gyou'un/Gaimou in terms of stats
- Renpa's "weight" >~Gyou'un/Gaimou

There is no basis for this argument though. I think you are favoring Renpa because he was a Great General, and like I mentioned above, this is simply not a reason to place him above Gyou’Un. Gyou’Un and Gaimou, based on Shin’s statements, we can literally say have the exact same weight as Renpa.

If we are talking stats, then it would be Renpa as being below Gyou’Un as Bananji was straight up stated to be in the same strength tier as Renpa alongside Akou, before Hara explicitly pointed out that Gyou’Un was stronger than Akou who had a few extended duels with Bananji.

I get that Renpa is a greater General than Gyou’Un, like I said Renpa is probably the most versatile General in the manga. But being a Greater General does not entail winning a fight against someone or being stronger than them martially. Gyou'Un was directly hyped above Renpa in that regard.

Btw buddy, how do u rank Bananji?

Equal to Renpa, below Gyou’Un lol. @Xione actually did a great job at pointing out in the Gyou’Un vs Bananji thread, that Bananji has his own weight and was basically unmotivated during the entirety of Shukai Plains up until they very end where Ousen viewed him as being pretty much unstoppable lol. So maybe he could end up being above Renpa or even Gyou’Un in the end lol. We need to see him actually motivated to fight seriously.

 

[RayanOO]

Look I get that this fandom loves Ouki, and I do as well. He is a top 3 character in Kingdom for me in terms of my favorites and one of the most majestic and awesome that I have ever seen.

But to completely disregard one side of the issue in favor of the other, is bias:

The fact of the matter is that we really cannot say definitively that Ouki and Renpa avoided dueling Gaimou because he was “unworthy,” when Gaimou was directly compared to Renpa by Shin

“It really is the exact same as that time”. Gaimou and Renpa also have literally the exact same combat stats at 97 in the data books if you go for that sort of thing, but I don’t lol.

It has been established in the canon that Gaimou and Renpa have the exact same weight. And then of course,

I don’t know why you guys are outright rejecting the canon like this lol. It’s fine to have your own headcanon, I have my own headcanon that I use to enhance my enjoyment as well but the portrayal is clear,

Gyou’Un does have weight directly comparable to Renpa, and thus the only argument that can be used to place Renpa over him is completely null, and we haven’t even started talking about all of the arguments that directly rank Gyou’Un above Renpa like I mentioned previously.



There is no basis for this argument though. I think you are favoring Renpa because he was a Great General, and like I mentioned above, this is simply not a reason to place him above Gyou’Un. Gyou’Un and Gaimou, based on Shin’s statements, we can literally say have the exact same weight as Renpa.

If we are talking stats, then it would be Renpa as being below Gyou’Un as Bananji was straight up stated to be in the same strength tier as Renpa alongside Akou, before Hara explicitly pointed out that Gyou’Un was stronger than Akou who had a few extended duels with Bananji.

I get that Renpa is a greater General than Gyou’Un, like I said Renpa is probably the most versatile General in the manga. But being a Greater General does not entail winning a fight against someone or being stronger than them martially. Gyou'Un was directly hyped above Renpa in that regard.



Equal to Renpa, below Gyou’Un lol. @Xione actually did a great job at pointing out in the Gyou’Un vs Bananji thread, that Bananji has his own weight and was basically unmotivated during the entirety of Shukai Plains up until they very end where Ousen viewed him as being pretty much unstoppable lol. So maybe he could end up being above Renpa or even Gyou’Un in the end lol. We need to see him actually motivated to fight seriously.

Don't you think Ouki strongly implied here that Great generals or the one responsible will have more weight than the others. Being the Great general means that you have to shoulder anyone lives even your generals ones. RSJ had likely greater weight than Gyou'un but the guy was too weak to fight.

When Houken asked Ouki what he was in the end Ouki answered : a great general of the heaven

Renpa the great general will have more weight. More responsabilities, more honors, he carried more lives on his back etc.