Woo boy officially retiring from forums after this post (ignoring my failed retirement few months ago
).
Leaving y'all with this giant ass post (that I won't delete like the other 30,000 character post :yasu:)
@Yo Tan Wa GOATBoku greatness expanded on.
@Admiral Lee Hung @Xione just a thought, if we talk about Riboku's political career than don't you think his biggest failure was just the accepting TouJou as king of Zhao. He was in clear position as prime Minister and head of the military to rebel against him and made 1st prince the king of Zhao. Whole Zhao army worships Riboku like a god and than many members/ministers in court has faith in him while prince's faction supported him as well. He might have successfully thrown TouJou away for Zhao's better future.
Biggest failure? Not at all. It can't even be a small failure since it was never his requirement.
Let's takes a look at Zhao's history & Riboku's, using both historical and manga facts:
Zhao's background prior to Riboku taking over:
The infamous battle of Chouhei (Changping): 24+ years ago from present story Zhao rivaled Qin and Chu in military strength. Renpa went on the defensive measures against Ouki, after Renpa was replaced by a newbie general, Qin replaced Ouki with Hakuki. Then Hakuki goes on to slaughter 400k of Zhao soldiers. After that Ouki would go on to conquer more of Zhao's territory as well (that's why you see Zhao people having such a grudge against him in the manga).
This battle took Zhao from being a rival to Qin & Chu, to becoming one of the bottom tier states. You then also had general Kyou who took shit ton of provinces from Zhao as well right after.
All in all, things weren't all that good for Zhao. Then just a year or so before Ouki's death, Renpa leaves Zhao.. with Zhao's other great general taking a giant L from Renpa. After Renpa's departure.. we then have the entry of RiBoku.
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19 years ago - Riboku was a normal general with not much renown
18-17 years ago - He heads to Ganmon, where he starts making his name with Bananji coming under his command.
8 years ago - He completely slaughters one of the Xiongu forces, and makes his entrance by slaying Ouki. This is when he was freshly appointed as one of the 3 great heavens and the prime minister of Zhao, just after Renpa left.
Basically everything Riboku has done so far has happened in the span of 8 years.
As the top general of Zhao:
-> Took down the biggest threat to Zhao, Ouki
-> Took out Gekishin, the guy held as Yan's top general (in name atleast), then expanded Zhao's territory
-> Formed the Coalition army
-> Took on Ousen and had him beat objectively, until betrayed by his own people
As the Chief of Military of Zhao:
-> Working the alliances between the various nations
-> Strengthening the military of Zhao so that it could compete with Qin to an extent, after Chouhei had taken it's bulk
-> Fortifying the defenses of the Zhao borders by construction of various fortresses strategically, to a point they made Zhao semi-impenetrable by any large force.
-> Bringing in and essentially raising Zhao's top generals like; Bananji, SSJ, Keisha (2 of whom are still gonna continue to grow under Riboku).
-> The Zhao's "youth star" equivalent: Futei
As the Prime Minister of Zhao:
- Strengthened Zhao's economy
- Other various things for Zhao, that we are yet unaware of, since the manga doesn't focus a whole lot on his political side.
- Considering Zhao was taking territories and dealing with alliances, there's a whole lot of stuff he was likely dealing with. And since Bananji didn't come down from Ganmon until this campaign, safe to assume there's some stuff to deal with the Xiongu as well.
- As the prime minister of Zhao, he was rivaling this man:
-> While rivaling Ryofui, he started off as an inferior politician to Ryofui, but ended up surpassing Ryofui himself in the department of Prime Minister/Chancellor. With Ryofui being at political stat of 90, and Riboku going from 88 to 92 over the course of the manga (basically as he got experience as the prime minister he grew). Some people tend to forget how great of a man Ryofui was, he was personally leading armies of 200k himself lol.
^^ That right there is no joke.
-> After Ryofui, he was then directly rivaling the man himself, King Ei Sei, as you might remember there are two direct opposing political methods to Ei Sei's political method of bringing peace to China, 1st was Ryofui's & 2nd is Riboku's:
In comparison, Shunshinkun, another person who was Chief of Military & Prime Minister, doesn't have the same resume as Riboku despite being the prime minister for 20 years.
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Now addressing not overthrowing the King:
Well 1st and the most obvious reason:
He had no intentions of becoming the King himself or leading a rebellion against the King. That's not who he is. It's similar to let's say Superman. Could he make the earth a better place by taking out the corrupt leaders of the world? Yes. But will he? No.
2nd reason:
Now the above is for the current situation where it's killing the current king and replacing him, but same would apply to the Old King, prehaps to an even greater degree.
It would essentially be planting the seeds of a civil war, especially when it's linked to him. Furthermore, when he took over both of the prince would be akin to somebody like young Ei Sei at best. He could possibly control him and what not, but who's to say the power doesn't get to the prince's head. On top of that, if it ever got out that Riboku is the one who got the King of all people killed... then there goes Riboku's reputation and start of a civil war that would lay waste to Zhao, a state that was already weak as fuck and had no other great general outside of Riboku.
3rd reason, time:
I put the history first for this very reason. Riboku had only been in charge as the prominent leader for 8 years or so. And it's only after Bayou that he became highly famous with the people of Zhao, so roughly 7 years ago. Let's suppose he takes the King out after becoming prime minister for a year or so. For one there would be high suspicion on him at this point, simply for that. For second he'd essentially be the psuedo-King, as a young prince Ka would be akin to prince Ei-Sei, where either Shoubunkun or Ryofui have to run the affairs, you don't see either of those on the battlefield or dealing with warfare and
Why don't they?
Because as the psuedo-King one would have to deal with fuck ton of other shit as well like the royal families, different factions of power and etc. I mean we don't know much about Zhao's political landscape, but if Qin is anything to go off of.. and that fat mf who got Riboku done in.. it's not exactly the best of situations, and highly doubt it'd be less busy than Qin, considering Zhao was already in a much worst condition in all aspects than Qin.
Add on top of that, Zhao court was also infiltrated by Ryofui to a certain degree. You think Ryofui and Qin would waste time to not take advantage of that? Hellll no. There would be more turmoil caused by spies from other states and etc, as neither Shunshinkun or Ryofui would let such an opportunity go.
Furthermore, in everything he did above in those 8 years, where exactly would he be fitting in a rebellion against the King, while still doing all the great things he did?? I mean the dude is the GOAT for sure, but he ain't no God.
Ryofui spent decades planning a rebellion, he had much more influence in Qin than Riboku does/did in Zhao politically, guess how that went for him? Took a giant L. Where would Riboku have had the time to plan such a rebellion prior to those 8 years, considering he was busy dealing with the problem with Xiongu in the north?
4th reason, not privileged enough:
Not priviliged as Prime Minister:
He simply was not privileged like the Qin were. You have to understand that Qin was a loaded powerhouse, that's why people like Ryofui could afford to do rebellions against the King. Thanks to Ei Sei's grandfather gathering fuck ton of top tier generals.That's why Ei Sei & Ryofui could have their little mini-civil war without it effecting the court's prowess. Let's do a 3-way comparison of Shunshinkun/Ryofui/Riboku in the event all 3 managed to topple their kings:
If Ryofui had successfully overthrone Ei Sei, he'd have :-
- Shouheikun (qin6 level)
- Ousen (qin6 level)
- Kanki (qin6 level)
- Moubu (qin6 level)
- Tou (qin6 level)
- Shin (future Qin 6 level)
- Kyoukai (future Qin 6 level)
- Ouhon (future Qin 6 level)
- Mouten (future Qin 6 level)
- Mouki (future top tier strategist)
- Karyo Ten (future top tier strategist)
^^ This doesn't even take into account the powerful generals like Akou under those respective generals. Or other minor generals, which Qin seems to be filled with.
If Shunshinkun overthrew the King:-
- Sentou (on par with the likes of Moubu & Tou)
- Man'U (on par with the likes of Moubu & Tou)
- Kanmei (on par with the likes of Moubu & Tou)
- Tiger of Chu (The most hyped general out there right now, outside of Riboku)
- KouYoku (Future Qin 6 level)
- Karin (On par with the likes of Shouheikun and even better than Shunshinkun as Chief of Military).
Keep in mind these are just the big dogs, we don't even know the underling generals yet. As well as any other potential big time name generals. According to Rokoumi, Chu is filled with generals of high prowess every place you go.
If Riboku had successfully overthrone the King he'd have :-
- Shibashou (Qin 6 level)
- Keisha (non Qin6 level)
- KoChou (non Qin6 level)
- Chou Haku (non Qin6 level)
- Bananji (non Qin6 level)
- SSJ (non Qin6 level)
- Gyou'un (non Qin6 level)
- CHG (non Qin6 level)
- Futei (maybe future Qin 6 level)
3 of them are Riboku's own personal deputies. 2 of them were deputies of another general. 1 of them doesn't have the experience of leading massive armies yet, even if he is on Qin 6 level. The other 2 don't possess the talent to rival anybody of Qin 6 caliber. 1 of them is inferior to the Qin's Big 4 youth stars at the moment.
He has a weak ass shit military if he himself is not at the helm of it, something he won't be if he has to also take on the King's responsibility. Who is he going to appoint Chief of Military? Assuming he got a chief of military, that person isn't gonna be on his capability, where he could also act as the state's top general..
Hara had the non-selfish, non-egotistical Riboku make this statement for a reason, he's essentially negating majority if not all of the main Generals of Qin himself:
It's easy to do a Prime Minister's job when you don't have to worry about being the center piece of a nation's military, or having to spend time strategizing and planning out how to make your military strong..
Not privileged as Chief of Military:
People like Hari (strategist for Wei), Shouheikun, Karin, others in similar positions are have the luxury of not having to worry about politics, laws, etc for their nation. Riboku does not. He's literally the only main competant politician of such caliber in Zhao.
Shouheikun - Had Ryofui & RiShi, now has Ei Sei/Shoubunkun/RiShi.
Shunshinkun - Had a very very competent King, who cared about the prowess of his state + Tiger of Chu handling part of military responsibility
Karin - Has Rein taking care of politics + A competent King
Hari - A competent King + a Prime Minister
Riboku - a dead weight of a King, backstabbing officials in the court
All these mfs have to worry about is Military scheming. Even when they had political affairs to worry about they had help in the military department , in the case of Tiger of Chu (1st in command of Chu Military).
Not privileged as the Nation's top general:
Every nation's top general has to mainly just worry about strengthening his own army. Furthermore, they're usually given command over the country's best soldier. Riboku on the other hand? No sir. The man has absolutely no command over the 300k+ strongest army of Zhao, because of the King.
The top general of the nation doesn't have to worry about political affairs, he doesn't have to worry about overall planning of the nation's military, strategically placing armies at certain points and etc.. He has the chance to develop his own army and grow himself personally..
He's fulfilling the role of Tiger of Chu/Ouki or Hakuki/Renpa/ Gouhoumei/ Tou or Ousen/ Gakuki/etc... while handling other bigger responsibilities of the nation.
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The privileges were mentioned to point out how he's already at a disadvantage in the roles he serves compared to his counterparts, who're doing 1/3rd of his work (or even 1/4th).. How in god's earth is the man going to handle all those things while being at disadvantage, if he also then has to start being the psuedo-King and handle the royal affairs, which are fuck ton of drama and are likely going to take approx. 1/4th to half of his time??
He cannot afford to dethrone the King by force and cause a destabilization. You're asking too much from a man who already had very little to work with compared to the rest.
Addressing some specific points:
"Zhao army worships Riboku like God":
It wasn't hard to turn the Zhao armies against Riboku lol. The only ones who stay true to Riboku were Futei's unit, some other few members from SSJ. And Bananji's personal army. Vast majority of the army went right at Riboku after he got declared a traitor. What's going to happen if somebody exposes Riboku as the traitor who killed the King?? With the help of Ryofui, Kakukai (the fat dude) could do that.. ding ding ding, you guess it.. his head is gonna go rolling.
"Many Ministers in court":
Good amount of them are probably out for their own gains, so they could potentially be bought. The good dozen that wouldn't sell out Riboku were already in jail at the time:
The importance of the "Throne":
The importance of the Throne is immense. A person automatically even if a scrub, has more influence than a well-renowned General if they hold the throne. All Sei had to do at Sai was talk some sweet words at the start and give a nice speech, and the people were ready to fight for him.. because he's the King. Where as like Riboku mentioned, even a top notch general would struggle to rally up such an army.
This is why Ryofui had to gather so much money, buy influential families, play decades of politics, get influential people like 1 of Qin's GG, Chief of Military, Chief Diplomat, Keeper of Law RiShi and etc to match up with Ei Sei.
Conclusion:
In Riboku we have a guy who has bested Ousen tactically. And was keeping in check a state that possessed multiple Qin 6 level generals.
A guy who's outdone SHK strategically, time after time.
A guy who's political prowess as a prime minister grew even above Ryofui (as showcased by their political stat)
A guy who became to his nation what Kings are to others, the backbone
Going all of that within 8 years.. he simply does not have the time or the correct situation to deal with toppling Kings.
@Admiral Lee Hung nah bro that shit was just some people from Ganmon falsely reporting that Riboku wasn't doing his job properly. Had nothing to do with the Zhao Court thinking bad about him being a coward or anything.
Second - Battlefield Tactics; SHK takes the WIN. Riboku has shown some great feats but SHK impresses me more. His actions during Coalition arc (stationing Generals) and Kanyou battle says lot more of him. Riboku has mostly been dependent on Houken for his major battles. He used Houken to slay Duke, at Shukai Plains too he had Houken be his last defensive line. His impressive feat was to slay Makau at day 1 but didn't get much after that. He has shown to be a great strategist but poor tactician, IMO.
I'm gonna address few points by the homie
@Dark Admiral here and then some by the bruhz
@Shanks in his post from before, since y'all have fairly similar points. Some points for both of y'all might get mixed up, so just pick out which might refer to you ahaha.
1st. Reliance on Houken:
Ouki had Tou, Shin has Kyoukai, why are we docking Riboku from having Houken?? Unlike Tou & Kyoukai, Houken is trash in tactics. Furthermore, it's not like Riboku himself was tearing people apart and then had an uber mf like Houken under him who did the same. It was that Houken was the martial might for him at the time, since Riboku himself didn't want to pick up the sword. He did the samething at Ganmon, Bananji was doing the martial fighting on behalf of Riboku. But let's address the actual situations though:
Duke Hyou & Gekshin -
He did use Houken. But nothing implies he couldn't handle Duke without using Houken. That's the thing here. Using Houken was the easiest/simplest way to get rid of the Duke. Which is what Riboku is all about, the path that causes the least causalities. Fans assume that Riboku got saved by Houken or that he couldn't take out the Duke without Houken.. Manga neither states or implies that. Only Duke Hyou tries to break Riboku's face by going "What're you gonna do now Riboku.. now that you're trapped? you're gonna fight me??" The Duke has no idea about Riboku's martial prowess, just like Shin didn't.
Fans also don't realize that Riboku could've just retreated and made the Duke chase him more, then eventually killed him by tiring him out and swarming him.. or actually fight himself if he needed to. Instead he chose to stay there in the middle of Ryuudou and lure the Duke in there, then have Houken take him out. Cause remember he was trying to do get this done without harming the army too much, so they could take down Kantan properly.
Gekishin was the same way. It's not as if Riboku couldn't beat Gekishin without Houken, it's that using Houken was the easiest and most effective way to do it. Remember he's trying to strengthen the Zhao military here, meaning get shit done with the least amount of causalities to the Zhao army.
But if we're going to dock him for using Houken to take out generals in a swift manner without grinding out his army, we gotta dock Ouki for using Tou, who according to Ouki is just as powerful as him. Not to mention Tou actually can use tactics, Houken is just there to swing his glaive lol.
Shukai plains:
Riboku had 0 plans for Houken in Shukai plains. Houken showed up on his own, and ever after Riboku heard the news of his arrival.. he still had 0 plans for him. Houken on his own, then decided to come to Riboku's HQ on the last day. Neither did he have any plans for using him as the last defensive line of some sort. In fact despite the him lying to Kaine about Houken not losing to Shin.. he had no expectations or reliance on Houken winning.. Which is why before Houken vs Kyoukai/Shin starts.. he says:
Then concluding with this when Houken gets defeated:
Only thing Houken did there was made Riboku's retreat late, that's it. Something that even Ousen was surprised about, because he was expecting Riboku to have left his HQ long ago, but Riboku decided to wait and see how Houken's final moments would be.
2nd Tactics at Shukai plains:
Not sure why you guys think he got bested by Ousen or was unimpressive, when the entire arc is him owning Ousen one after the other.
1st. Trying to remove the wing's generals. Riboku successfully got Makou, Ousen failed at getting Kisui.
@Shanks blames Ousen's failure in this on Shin being emotional and not continuing to hit the Kisui HQ. However what the brother here doesn't realize is Shin did the correct thing in that situation.
-> Ousen's entire plan relied on Makou being able to stall out Kisui's main army. While HSU & Mouten hit Kisui's Hq and slay him.
-> Riboku slew Makou, which ruined Ousen's plan in such a manner that the Makou army would've been taken a HUGE loss had Shin idiotically continued trying to get Kisui, who would've ran away from the side that Mouten was attacking from.. because Mouten pulled back from attacking Kisui's HQ, after seeing the flow shift.
-> Shin had two choices: Hit the Kisui HQ, where the zhao soldiers had raised morale now and were making it harder for HSU to get through Or... go after the enemy's commander-in-chief in hopes of turning the tide and essentially ending it all. He picked the smarter choice of the two, which was try to take the enemy's commander-in-chief down.
-> Now the correct choice was then what Mouten suggested, leave Kisui's HQ alone and try to reform the Makou army. So it's not just Shin who made the decision not to go slay Kisui, MOUTEN himself made the same decision.. because it was a bad decision to make in that situation.
Ousen here took the L plain and simple.
@Dark Admiral he got wholee lot after Makou.
2nd. Countering Ousen's "joint" stratgem + taking out Akou:
Akou implements Ousen's technique of "joints" or w.e it was called. Riboku after taking 1 look at it, proceeds to tell Bananji how to counter it, who then proceeds to counter it. lol.
Riboku again gave Ousen a L here.
Taking out Akou by using Bananji & Gyou'un was also Riboku's plan, he succeeded. Ousen on the other hand didn't have a single plan to take out the generals on that wing.
3rd. Both were even with their armies face to face:
@Shanks You're flat-out wrong in saying Ousen had Riboku on the backfoot when it comes to tactics. He did not. Both were in a deadlock stalemate as pointed out by the narrator.
@Dark Admiral bro if Riboku is a poor tactician, that means Ousen is poor as well. Their armies were in a literal deadlock due to their tactics. Their face to face clash is the best direct face to face tactical feats we have in the manga.
4th. The pincer attacks:
Ousen's plan to slay Riboku relied on HSU coming in to pincer him, which would've gave him the edge in their stalemate. Riboku countered this shit HARD, by making his own pincer on Ousen's HQ, with Futei & Bananji.
Ousen was then saved twice:
- 1st by Ouhon, who prevented Futei from slaying Ousen or atleast keep him occupied until Bananji came in to do it.
- 2nd by Mouten, who landed the lethal blow on Bananji's eye that slowed him down
^^ These were factors outside of Ousen's control. You might say Riboku had Houken.. but Houken didn't save Riboku from nothing, Riboku was gonna escape the HSU either way. Something Hara had Mouten point out to Shin. Hell Ousen was expecting him to escape even after Ousen got pincered.
As far as THEIR tactics go, Riboku had Ousen dead in the Shukai plains.
5th. Countering the Qi plan:
The only reason Ousen was able to pull off this plan was, thanks to Riboku getting taken away, which delayed it. Had Riboku been on the battlefield he would've figured out the plan a lot sooner and his army would've acted on time or even before time. Where as Riboku did figure out Ousen's plan, but he couldn't get this army to acton time, because of the giant ass distance between him and his army. And then Kaine and such not taking action fast enough.
But yea, Riboku owns tactics.