Questions & Mysteries Shin's death/fall, by who? (Historical spoilers involved)

[Xione]

Hello everyone, haven't made a speculation thread in a while. I've been thinking a lot about Shin's character and how Hara would thematically end him. This thread is essentially the conclusion I've arrived at regarding his death/fall. So there will be historical spoilers and all that jazz.
......

At the end of Bayou arc Hara introduced a theme to the manga that didn't really exist before. During the death of Ouki he has Ouki mentions something along the lines of how the strongest will be surpassed by the next strongest, for how new era will eventually surpass the old era. And this theme is also then carried over to Riboku vs Shin. During the banquet at Kanyou, Shin declares that he aims to surpass Riboku and he's not gonna do it in some cheap way. Since then he has been adamant about going at Riboku every chance he's gotten. And in this recent battle Riboku just made Shin look like a chump by isolating him from the main battlefield. The accumulation of this is eventually heading to Shin surpassing Riboku or emerging as the one who'll be the next top dog around Riboku's death. Riboku wasn't superior to Ouko at Bayou, but it was the emergence of the man who would take the mantel of the top dog eventually and become bigger than Ouki.

Now by the time Qin falls, Shin will roughly be in his 50s or so. Closer to the same age as Ouki during his death. During the fall there are two major figures who will rise up Xiang Yu, Kouen's grandson and.. Liu Bang, the one who establishes the biggest empire of China since Zhou and doing something Sei will fail to do.

These two will literally be engaging in a 1on1 of supremacy using the entirety of China as their dueling ring. Something China has yet to experience so far. While Shin is fighting to be the greatest general under the heavens. These 2 will be leading giant armies themselves for the actual rule of entirety of China. Unprecedented.


What's interesting is the different outlook of these two have when it comes to Ei Sei:

Xiang Yu when he looked at Ei Sei said: "I can replace him."

Liu Bang when he looked at Ei Sei said: “So this is what a powerful man looks like!”

Both being the two crucial figures that'd dismantle the Qin empire into dirt. So yea they gone be built different.

Shin's fall:

I think seeing the Qin empire being attacked, Shin will come out of retirement to protect the empire, as it is something he'd help forged and of course it is what Sei dedicated himself to. So even if not for himself, he'd step back on the battlefield to protect it for Sei.

A moment that'd be similar to Ouki returning to the battlefield. And in his returning battle he'll either face Xiang Yu or Liu Bang.

Facing Xiang Yu:

- The Kouen storyline continuation, Xiang Yu getting revenge for his grandfather
- Shin being able to compare whether Xiang Yu has surpassed Kouen

Thematically you can build a lot on this with Chu storyline.

Facing Liu Bang:

- Having a moment similar to Ouki seeing Sei's capabilities to become a King. Or even Riboku's evaluation of whether Ousen could be king. Shin would be able to determine whether Liu Bang is THAT GUY to actually bring peace to China or not.

- Both have very humble backgrounds and both have a comradery aspect that helped them rise to where they reached. Both also had important commanders/figures they relied on.



So imo, Shin will be dying to these two. At this point he'd be portrayed as the last barrier to Qin's fall. I mean it could be a teamup of both as well against a combined army of Ouhon, Shin, and others possibly. With Shin just being the main highlight. As I also see Ouhon dying in the battlefield.


PLEASE SHARE YOUR PREDICTION OR OPINION IN GENERAL ON THIS.

 

[Borasey79]

My man's back with the month's goods

 

[Pirao]

Shin's son was one of Liu Bang's generals, I find it quite unlikely that he'll join any war to protect the corrupt Qin empire. If Sei was still alive, I could see Shin fighting to protect his friend, but after Sei's death, Ri Shi and that faggot eunuch will usurp power and force Sei's crown prince, as well as Mouten, to commit suicide. Why would Shin fight to protect them?

 

[Xione]

Shin's son was one of Liu Bang's generals, I find it quite unlikely that he'll join any war to protect the corrupt Qin empire. If Sei was still alive, I could see Shin fighting to protect his friend, but after Sei's death, Ri Shi and that faggot eunuch will usurp power and force Sei's crown prince, as well as Mouten, to commit suicide. Why would Shin fight to protect them?

- First time hearing about this. Seeing as he won't be having a kid until post-unification. His kid would be way too young. One of his descendants was a general in the Han dynasty down the line tho.


- Because it's the empire he helped forge. You're over complicating it by bringing in political and moral motives. Political situation can still be handled if the empire remains. And the guy who the Eunach supports is also a son of Ei Sei. And this is all under the assumption Shin will care about the politics of it all and will even know about the details.

 

[Pirao]

- First time hearing about this. Seeing as he won't be having a kid until post-unification. His kid would be way too young. One of his descendants was a general in the Han dynasty down the line tho.


- Because it's the empire he helped forge. You're over complicating it by bringing in political and moral motives. Political situation can still be handled if the empire remains. And the guy who the Eunach supports is also a son of Ei Sei. And this is all under the assumption Shin will care about the politics of it all and will even know about the details.

Li Xin's son Li Chao was a Han dynasty general, and in fact even participated in the uprising against Qin under Peng Yue according to chinese wikipedia. Several other descendants were generals during Han, and even under the Xiongnu lol. Li House was huge eventually so there were a lot of guys with varied careers.

I don't think Shin cares much about Qin, now or in the future. He is a simple guy that holds strong loyalty towards other people (Sei, SBK and the others), not a patriot like Riboku. So, when Ri Shi and the eunuch fuck things up he'll just let them reap what they sowed. That's what I think will happen.

 

[Xione]

Li Xin's son Li Chao was a Han dynasty general. Several other descendants were generals during Han, and even under the Xiongnu lol. Li House was huge eventually so there were a lot of guys with varied careers.

I don't think Shin cares much about Qin, now or in the future. He is a simple guy that holds strong loyalty towards other people (Sei, SBK and the others), not a patriot like Riboku. So, when Ri Shi and the eunuch fuck things up he'll just let them reap what they sowed. That's what I think will happen.

- Right but he wasn't a general under Liu Bang. And outside of wiki I can't find any actual source on Shin's direct children and their involvement in the actual Qin vs Chu-Han war.

- Yea I think we disagree on that, while initially it was 100% true he could careless. However it changed when he told Sei that who becomes the King 100% matters. Ouki cared about the nation of Qin itself, even though not about politics after Sho's passing. I don't think Shin will be any different in that manner.

You can also easily write it in a way where Shin feels guilty and responsible for not involving himself into politics and preventing a brother vs brother situation between Sei's children. And of course this is all under the giant assumption Shin will know all the details of the political conspiracy. Which I don't think he will.

Political situations can be changed as long as you have an empire. You can groom the younger son into a great king even despite the conspiracy, you can bounce back from that. Now watching the thing you built get destroyed in front of your eyes, Shin would need to lose some immense pride for that.

 

[zorokenshi]

While Im still reading the Records of the Grand Historian english copy I have is historically stated in many records from different people that Li xin AKA Shin where involved in post Qin events like Xiang Yu vs Liu Bang for supremacy and the birth of Han dinasty not only Li Chao but also another one called Li Guang descended from him and was called also the flying general because his speed tactics/prowess.
I say he will pass away looking how a new generation of generals/heroes takes the field and the reins of China and remembering all that he went through with his friends and comrades saying a badass frase or something of the sort.

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2024

you should include in the poll an option for Die of old age with kyokai

 

[ray_san90]

It's a shame that the Qin dynasty only lasted 10 years at the expense of war against other kingdoms. But the point is that Qin Shi Huang succeeded in uniting all the kingdoms in China even though it only lasted a short time.

 

[Xione]

While Im still reading the Records of the Grand Historian english copy I have is historically stated in many records from different people that Li xin AKA Shin where involved in post Qin events like Xiang Yu vs Liu Bang for supremacy and the birth of Han dinasty not only Li Chao but also another one called Li Guang descended from him and was called also the flying general because his speed tactics/prowess.
I say he will pass away looking how a new generation of generals/heroes takes the field and the reins of China and remembering all that he went through with his friends and comrades saying a badass frase or something of the sort.

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2024

you should include in the poll an option for Die of old age with kyokai

Added

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2024

It's a shame that the Qin dynasty only lasted 10 years at the expense of war against other kingdoms. But the point is that Qin Shi Huang succeeded in uniting all the kingdoms in China even though it only lasted a short time.

They do say conquering is easier than actually ruling.

 

[Monet]

lol let hara finish Zhao now 🤣.
which is almost will ebd after 200 from now.
so by the time hara reach end of chu he will retire or die

 

[Rumble]

So even if not for himself, he'd step back on the battlefield to protect it for Sei.

I think by this point, they will be so estranged and distant, word won't reach Shin until Sei and the prince are already dead.

With civil war and invasions on the horizon, I think Shin would care more about protecting the people under his governance than preserving Qin - which he only ever cared about when Sei was on the "right" path.

imo Shin will likely die of some illness as a relatively old man, widowed and haunted by the bittersweet memories of the unification wars that did not bring the lasting peace they spilled so much blood to purchase.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

imo Shin will likely die of some illness as a relatively old man, widowed and haunted by the bittersweet memories of the unification wars that did not bring the lasting peace they spilled so much blood to purchase.

i do agree with this

@Xione I think instead of Shin dying to Liu Bang or Xiang Yu it will be Ouhon who dies to them.

I see him remaining an active commander to the very end, and him dying in this manner could parallel his relative Ouki's death.

Xiang Yu is likely the son of Kouyoku and I think there's a very high chance Ouhon kills Yoku too.

At this point Shin will realize that his era of warfare is truly over(Mouten will definitely be dead by this point and i bet Kyoukai will too probably of something unrelated to warfare).

i think he dies seeing the Han Dynasty flourish and do well, seeing the ideal world Sei wanted to create, a unified China, just under the name Han instead of Qin

 

[Xione]

i do agree with this

@Xione I think instead of Shin dying to Liu Bang or Xiang Yu it will be Ouhon who dies to them.

I see him remaining an active commander to the very end, and him dying in this manner could parallel his relative Ouki's death.

Xiang Yu is likely the son of Kouyoku and I think there's a very high chance Ouhon kills Yoku too.

At this point Shin will realize that his era of warfare is truly over(Mouten will definitely be dead by this point and i bet Kyoukai will too probably of something unrelated to warfare).

i think he dies seeing the Han Dynasty flourish and do well, seeing the ideal world Sei wanted to create, a unified China, just under the name Han instead of Qin

Oh I think both Ouhon & Shin are getting fed to those two, even the likes of Kyoukai, Moubu and co if they're alive at the time. Any big time Qin general alive at the time is getting taken down by the two essentially to hype them up + their underlings.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Oh I think both Ouhon & Shin are getting fed to those two, even the likes of Kyoukai, Moubu and co if they're alive at the time. Any big time Qin general alive at the time is getting taken down by the two essentially to hype them up + their underlings.

oh yeah Moubu should definitely die on the battlefield. Not sure if it's realistic for him to outlive his sons but i can see that too.

I think it would be more fitting for Shin to live to see the Han Dynasty rise and succeed where the Qin dynasty failed.

 

[Xione]

oh yeah Moubu should definitely die on the battlefield. Not sure if it's realistic for him to outlive his sons but i can see that too.

I think it would be more fitting for Shin to live to see the Han Dynasty rise and succeed where the Qin dynasty failed.

For me I think if Shin at the time would be like a geezer similar to Saitaku, that's a fine ending. But he'd be around the same age as Ouki was when he died, so still in his prime condition. So it'd be extremely weird for me atleast to see Shin who can still fight, and still holds the title of the best, just watch his comrades die left and right, his nephews/nieces (Sei's children) get killed, all while he chills back. Even Renpa wanted to go back to Zhao after the WZI fiasco, due to just a natural internal motherland bond of having shed his blood and fought for Zhao for so long.

Then with Liu Bang & Xiang Yu, just letting him live despite knowing the potential risk he could pose to them after. Like Riboku wanted to kill Ouki first and foremost because he was the top dog and the symbol of Qin's martial prestige. This is despite him not having been active for years. (Especially knowing what Liu Bang does to people who might pose a potential threat to his reign down the line).

 

[Rumble]

I'm not convinced Hara will actually show it, but I believe the Q3 will all have pretty shitty endings.

Ou Hon - outlives his eldest son and then dies on the battlefield, possibly by choice
Mou Ten - ordered to commit suicide, probably under threat of reprisals to his loved ones
Ri Shin - loses many subordinates and doesn't spend his golden years with Kyou Kai, but mirred in his past and trauma instead

To me, these are the endings that make sense.

I don't think any of them living happily ever after would be appropriate for the material, but then again, what the fuck is Hara's actual message? I feel like early on in the series, things were much more visceral and their purpose all too clear. The repudiation of war as a path to lasting peace was the message.

Treat people with humanity and kindness, and there will be peace. Humiliate and oppress them, and ruin shall follow.

Hara still pays lip service to that message every couple hundred chapters, it seems like, but there's not a lot following through behind those statements. Hopefully these latest chapters are an indication that will change - for better or worse, I just want it addressed.

 

[Xione]

I'm not convinced Hara will actually show it, but I believe the Q3 will all have pretty shitty endings.

Yea I think I am being very optimistic in thinking that Hara would actually showcase the full rise of Liu Bang and downfall of Qin in a fleshed out way, where we actually the Q3 and others taken out properly. It could just be some 10 chapter epilogue shit after the unification that's like a summary for all we know.

Especially since the narrator already name dropped Liu Bang. (I MEAN it can serve as a good "oh shit this the guy that was mentioned then!!! Wtf!!" since he won't be called Emperor Gaozu until he fully conquers everything + the series also starts with the spoiler of Shin being a top notch General.)

Spoiler

But this does bring bit doubt to my mind.

Mou Ten - ordered to commit suicide, probably under threat of reprisals to his loved ones

Hara best not bitch out of this, and make it a fully detailed arc.

 

[Pirao]

I'm not convinced Hara will actually show it, but I believe the Q3 will all have pretty shitty endings.

Nah. If anything, I'm convinced Hara chose Shin as protagonist for the simple reason that he's one of the few people of the era that has a happy ending.

 

[Rumble]

Yea I think I am being very optimistic in thinking that Hara would actually showcase the full rise of Liu Bang and downfall of Qin in a fleshed out way, where we actually the Q3 and others taken out properly. It could just be some 10 chapter epilogue shit after the unification that's like a summary for all we know.

Yeah, I'm expecting little of Hara post unification. I don't doubt he'd want to do it if he had infinite time, but he doesn't. He's middle-aged already, not a young man.

Hara best not bitch out of this, and make it a fully detailed arc.

I wouldn't blame him for abridging it, though I do think if Ou Hon is killed by Kou Yoku's son that we'll get to see that play out. I dunno, it's hard to say.

Nah. If anything, I'm convinced Hara chose Shin as protagonist for the simple reason that he's one of the few people of the era that has a happy ending.

The reasoning he gave for picking Li Xin was the negative space it provided for him to fill up.

I'm not ruling out happy endings for the Q3, I don't know what's in Hara's mind, but I do think it would be inappropriate and undermine the work as a whole.

Too much blood will have been spilled and too many people will be made to suffer by the Q3 for them to have happy ever afters. It seems obscene to me for any of them to be happy individuals at the end of it all.

 

[Pirao]

I'm not ruling out happy endings for the Q3, I don't know what's in Hara's mind, but I do think it would be inappropriate and undermine the work as a whole.

Too much blood will have been spilled and too many people will be made to suffer by the Q3 for them to have happy ever afters. It seems obscene to me for any of them to be happy individuals at the end of it all.

We know Mouten and Ouhon don't have happy endings, but Shin totally does. He got lands, got to retire peacefully, and at least one of his children went to become a high ranking officer under Han. Doesn't get much better than that.