Versus Battle SHK vs SBS
- Thread starter Bullet
- Start date
@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Rumble @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Topi Jerami @Shanks @Cichy @Bullet @mmd @Yo Tan Wa @๐๐ก . ๐๐รฑ๐ฆ๐ @Darkrai1381 @tcb @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Daniel @Pot Goblin @centurion @Ou Zen
From a logical and realistic point of view, I think ShibaShou will win against Shouheikun. There is no way a scholar/warrior can win against a real general with decades of real experience on the battlefield, against countries and nomadic tribes.
But based on Hara's writing style, the winner will be Shouheikun:
1. First Shibashou will overwhelm Shouheikun
2. Next Shouheikun is cornered
3. Shouheikun suddenly recalls his memories with Moubu, remembering the promise/vow between them
4. Shouheikun is full of power, he finds Shibashou's weakness and counterattacks
5. Shibashou dies.
But based on Hara's writing style, the winner will be Shouheikun:
1. First Shibashou will overwhelm Shouheikun
2. Next Shouheikun is cornered
3. Shouheikun suddenly recalls his memories with Moubu, remembering the promise/vow between them
4. Shouheikun is full of power, he finds Shibashou's weakness and counterattacks
5. Shibashou dies.
SHK > SBS. Arguably one of the three most hyped military men in all of China.
However I'm a bit unsure on Shouheikun's subs here. The Juuko tactician should be better than anyone SBS has, Kansaro included. But then Shouheikun has Heki and Kanki's remainers...who should be a very little factor, lol.
But yeah, Qin's chief baby.
However I'm a bit unsure on Shouheikun's subs here. The Juuko tactician should be better than anyone SBS has, Kansaro included. But then Shouheikun has Heki and Kanki's remainers...who should be a very little factor, lol.
But yeah, Qin's chief baby.
Yeahhhh not really sure what Shouheikun is supposed to do against Shibashou tbh, especially with nearly equal numbers. What can Shouheikun have up his sleeve that is superior to Ousenโs tactics that Shibashou ate for breakfast? Ousen surrounded Shibashou with a 2:1 advantage and still lost. How would Shouheikun be different? Iโm not even sure.
Plus Shouheikunโs subs really add nothing here tbh. Kankiโs subs are pretty insignificant without Kanki to lead them, Juukou Ou is featless and Heki is largely irrelevant here. Shouheikunโs black cavalry is nice but honestly Shibashou just has the severe advantage in terms of his commanders. I doubt Shouheikun has one sub excluding MAYBE Hyoushiga who can kill Shibashouโs generals.
Shouheikunโs only hope is that his own martial prowess would allow him to slay literally every relevant commander here. Which honestly Iโd say Shouheikun vs Jiaga or Kansaro isnโt looking too bad butโฆShouheikun vs Shibashou, obviously we donโt know either of their full abilities but Shibashou to me just seems like he would be above Shouheikun who hasnโt really fought on the battlefield for over a decade. Even prime Shouheikun vs somebody like SBSโฆitโs hard to really say how a skill based fighter like Shouheikun would match up against an 8 foot tall Goliath like Shibashou but Shibashou just seems too overwhelming for me.
I would say Shibashou high diffs.
Plus Shouheikunโs subs really add nothing here tbh. Kankiโs subs are pretty insignificant without Kanki to lead them, Juukou Ou is featless and Heki is largely irrelevant here. Shouheikunโs black cavalry is nice but honestly Shibashou just has the severe advantage in terms of his commanders. I doubt Shouheikun has one sub excluding MAYBE Hyoushiga who can kill Shibashouโs generals.
Shouheikunโs only hope is that his own martial prowess would allow him to slay literally every relevant commander here. Which honestly Iโd say Shouheikun vs Jiaga or Kansaro isnโt looking too bad butโฆShouheikun vs Shibashou, obviously we donโt know either of their full abilities but Shibashou to me just seems like he would be above Shouheikun who hasnโt really fought on the battlefield for over a decade. Even prime Shouheikun vs somebody like SBSโฆitโs hard to really say how a skill based fighter like Shouheikun would match up against an 8 foot tall Goliath like Shibashou but Shibashou just seems too overwhelming for me.
I would say Shibashou high diffs.
So by remaining Kanki subs I'm suposed to understand this is just Maron, Ogiko and Saki Clan?
Shouheikun was only shown in one battle against an enemy who's far inferior to Three Great Heavens. He is undoubtly a genius in grand strategy, but we still don't know how would that translate to open field battle against an enemy of this calibre.
Shibashou also doesn't have a lot of oncreen showings, but at least him nuking Ousen Army is far superior feat then anything SHK did. On top of that he has way better squad of vassals here. Heki and the bandits are non-factors. Ju Ko'Ou is a great strategist, but doesn't have anything that can stop a powerful charge. Hyou Shiga seem solid, but thats not enough.
Shouheikun was only shown in one battle against an enemy who's far inferior to Three Great Heavens. He is undoubtly a genius in grand strategy, but we still don't know how would that translate to open field battle against an enemy of this calibre.
Shibashou also doesn't have a lot of oncreen showings, but at least him nuking Ousen Army is far superior feat then anything SHK did. On top of that he has way better squad of vassals here. Heki and the bandits are non-factors. Ju Ko'Ou is a great strategist, but doesn't have anything that can stop a powerful charge. Hyou Shiga seem solid, but thats not enough.
We haven't seen much of Shouheikun's actual experience in the battlefield other than that one appearance of him near the end of the coalition war.
But from his experiences in developing defensive strategies and scenarios in the King's courtroom suggests that he's pretty much a pure strategical general, not unlike Riboku...just with less actual battlefield experience.
Too bad we haven't seen much of SBS either other than that one battle where he managed to get close enough to Ousen's location and it caused Ousen's army to get pushed back, making him lose that battle.
The remaining Kan Ki army might be able to formulate strategies that work more effectively in the dead of night (such as tampering with food supplies, arson, etc) but with Kan Ki's death along with the rest of their bandit higher ups, this isn't even a guarantee at all.
Shouheiken may want to have Shin and his army in this fight because he might be the only one (Ou Hon is debatable, but I doubt he's on the level of someone like Ou Ki yet) that can hold back Shibashou 1-on-1 due to his experience going up against fighters that are supposed to be above his own weight class.
But from his experiences in developing defensive strategies and scenarios in the King's courtroom suggests that he's pretty much a pure strategical general, not unlike Riboku...just with less actual battlefield experience.
Too bad we haven't seen much of SBS either other than that one battle where he managed to get close enough to Ousen's location and it caused Ousen's army to get pushed back, making him lose that battle.
The remaining Kan Ki army might be able to formulate strategies that work more effectively in the dead of night (such as tampering with food supplies, arson, etc) but with Kan Ki's death along with the rest of their bandit higher ups, this isn't even a guarantee at all.
Shouheiken may want to have Shin and his army in this fight because he might be the only one (Ou Hon is debatable, but I doubt he's on the level of someone like Ou Ki yet) that can hold back Shibashou 1-on-1 due to his experience going up against fighters that are supposed to be above his own weight class.
This is the opposite of the Moubu vs SBS matchup. SHK can possibly take it mid-diff, but just to play it safe I'll say he takes it high-diff. Reading your other post, originally you had it be 100kvs100k, so I'll base my answer on that scenario.
Shouheikun vs Shibashou as generals:
Martial Might: While Shibashou maybe a better fodder control person and superior in raw physical stats, SHK in a mano e mano could possibly win or push him to extreme-diff. The feat that SHK pulled against the Duke at State of Ai arc was absolutely insane, the Duke is listed at strength state 89/90, akin to Yotanwa also neg-diffing one of the brothers in WZI who is listed at 90. So his "real" strength stat should be somewhere near Yotanwa's atleast. I'll give him a 95/96 stat as a base to work off of here.
Then we come to weight. Firstly, we have the weight of a general which is based on the amount of life one carries on their shoulders be it allies or enemies, just as how Kanki said the death of all those who die in the unification is on Ei Sei's shoulders, the deaths of those who the Qin army kills based on SHK's strategies is also on SHK's shoulders. This is where SBS will be lacking compared to SHK. Secondly, weight of the unification goal... the unification goal is something SHK has been working on before Ei Sei revealed it to be his own goal. SBS as far as I'm aware has not shown that grand of an ambition. Keep in mind, Renpa & Ouki blatantly found Gaimou to not be worthy of their time due to him missing a grand ambition that would bring out his true prowess.
This is of course not to say SBS won't have any weight himself, I'm sure he does with relating to protecting the people of Seika. But just that SHK's will be bigger.
So I don't think the martial gap between the two will be huge, and with SHK POSSIBLY being able to pull out the W dependent on the weight factors.
Strategy: Heaven and earth apart.
SHK is just a superior overall general. Martial might can only overcome strategy when it is far above strategy. Otherwise you need the combination of insane martial might & some strategy to conquer high end strategy. Sadly, SHK doesn't allow SBS that privilege.
Commanders:
I'm assuming you're giving SHK his known vassals atleast and not just his special units commander Hyou Shiga. I'm going to base this on the assumption that you are doing that.
SHK will effectively have: KaiOku, Kou Ryuu, Hyou Shiga, Ju ko'Ou, Mouki, Heki, Fuuhan
SBS will have: Kansaro, Jiaga, JKR, Fuuon, Gakushou,
I'm going to rank the commanders from the best to least:
1st. Juko'ou
2nd. KouRyuu
3rd. Kansaro/KaiOku
4th. KaiOku/Kansaro
5th. rest you can debate too lazy to rank.
However, just among there, there is a GAP between Juko'ou and anybody else here. We're talking about great general who essentially commanded over Man'U/Sentou/etc with his strategies. His equivalent would be somebody like Genpo. Nobody on Seika's squad is even sniffing Juko'Ou as a commander.
And as for KouRyuu, the man was the "main general" in Ei Sei's army that he brought to deal with Kanki. Hara had him be name dropped by Ei Sei himself telling SHK to call up KouRyuu. His strategical synergy with SHK is amazing, the man without a single word executed the strategy with SHK and Ten. And you're going to now scale that strategical synergy on a much bigger scale.
While people have multiple times mentioned the strength gap between the two armies nobody has brought up the VAST strategical gap between the two armies.
The situation:
As I mentioned earlier, martial might overcomes strategy when the strategy is mid and the martial might is overwhelming. Or when Martial Might is paired with a solid strategy. (Before anybody mentions the "stalemate" between Karin/Moubu, Karin had never planned on an actual invasion into Qin, and their clash ended right when Karin was actually about to implement a strategy).
And, great martial might can overcome great strategy if the scale is small. Because the strategies are limited at that point However, once you expand the scale of the armies & the location, the advantage for strategy is completely absurd. Hence why you will never in this series see Moubu doing a war by himself or if he does do a battle, it'll be very small numbers or a simple one. You will also never have him be the main general who plans out an invasion vs a high-end strategist.
Otherwise, what happens when you have great martial might vs overwhelming strategy... is you get Ordo vs Ousen. Where Ordo has the superior martial might of an army + superior numbers, but has absolutely nothing to counter overwhelming strategy with.
With a battlefield like the Shukai Plains that does have some hills around it along with the huge size of the battlefield, who then add on 100k size army, where SHK can implement damn near any strategem he wants, and there's not a single person on the opposite side who'd be able to comprehend the shit he'd be doing. And unlike Ousen, SHK himself can execute assassination strategies himself like Riboku did with Makou, except on a bigger scale due to his martial prowess being higher than Riboku's so far. Adding on to that the strategical synnergy between himself and 3 vassals.
Adding on to that Juko'ou himself can strategically mindfuck the Seika army, let alone when combined with SHK.
Honestly, the more i'm writing this out... yea SHK clears this mid-diff.
TBC: If the scale of the battle was smaller... like 20k vs 20k / 40k vs 40k, I'd give it to Seika no doubt. Different generals are just suited for different scenarios, somebody like SHK is just a monster in a scenario like this.
Shouheikun vs Shibashou as generals:
Martial Might: While Shibashou maybe a better fodder control person and superior in raw physical stats, SHK in a mano e mano could possibly win or push him to extreme-diff. The feat that SHK pulled against the Duke at State of Ai arc was absolutely insane, the Duke is listed at strength state 89/90, akin to Yotanwa also neg-diffing one of the brothers in WZI who is listed at 90. So his "real" strength stat should be somewhere near Yotanwa's atleast. I'll give him a 95/96 stat as a base to work off of here.
Then we come to weight. Firstly, we have the weight of a general which is based on the amount of life one carries on their shoulders be it allies or enemies, just as how Kanki said the death of all those who die in the unification is on Ei Sei's shoulders, the deaths of those who the Qin army kills based on SHK's strategies is also on SHK's shoulders. This is where SBS will be lacking compared to SHK. Secondly, weight of the unification goal... the unification goal is something SHK has been working on before Ei Sei revealed it to be his own goal. SBS as far as I'm aware has not shown that grand of an ambition. Keep in mind, Renpa & Ouki blatantly found Gaimou to not be worthy of their time due to him missing a grand ambition that would bring out his true prowess.
This is of course not to say SBS won't have any weight himself, I'm sure he does with relating to protecting the people of Seika. But just that SHK's will be bigger.
So I don't think the martial gap between the two will be huge, and with SHK POSSIBLY being able to pull out the W dependent on the weight factors.
Strategy: Heaven and earth apart.
SHK is just a superior overall general. Martial might can only overcome strategy when it is far above strategy. Otherwise you need the combination of insane martial might & some strategy to conquer high end strategy. Sadly, SHK doesn't allow SBS that privilege.
Commanders:
I'm assuming you're giving SHK his known vassals atleast and not just his special units commander Hyou Shiga. I'm going to base this on the assumption that you are doing that.
SHK will effectively have: KaiOku, Kou Ryuu, Hyou Shiga, Ju ko'Ou, Mouki, Heki, Fuuhan
SBS will have: Kansaro, Jiaga, JKR, Fuuon, Gakushou,
I'm going to rank the commanders from the best to least:
1st. Juko'ou
2nd. KouRyuu
3rd. Kansaro/KaiOku
4th. KaiOku/Kansaro
5th. rest you can debate too lazy to rank.
However, just among there, there is a GAP between Juko'ou and anybody else here. We're talking about great general who essentially commanded over Man'U/Sentou/etc with his strategies. His equivalent would be somebody like Genpo. Nobody on Seika's squad is even sniffing Juko'Ou as a commander.
And as for KouRyuu, the man was the "main general" in Ei Sei's army that he brought to deal with Kanki. Hara had him be name dropped by Ei Sei himself telling SHK to call up KouRyuu. His strategical synergy with SHK is amazing, the man without a single word executed the strategy with SHK and Ten. And you're going to now scale that strategical synergy on a much bigger scale.
While people have multiple times mentioned the strength gap between the two armies nobody has brought up the VAST strategical gap between the two armies.
The situation:
As I mentioned earlier, martial might overcomes strategy when the strategy is mid and the martial might is overwhelming. Or when Martial Might is paired with a solid strategy. (Before anybody mentions the "stalemate" between Karin/Moubu, Karin had never planned on an actual invasion into Qin, and their clash ended right when Karin was actually about to implement a strategy).
And, great martial might can overcome great strategy if the scale is small. Because the strategies are limited at that point However, once you expand the scale of the armies & the location, the advantage for strategy is completely absurd. Hence why you will never in this series see Moubu doing a war by himself or if he does do a battle, it'll be very small numbers or a simple one. You will also never have him be the main general who plans out an invasion vs a high-end strategist.
Otherwise, what happens when you have great martial might vs overwhelming strategy... is you get Ordo vs Ousen. Where Ordo has the superior martial might of an army + superior numbers, but has absolutely nothing to counter overwhelming strategy with.
With a battlefield like the Shukai Plains that does have some hills around it along with the huge size of the battlefield, who then add on 100k size army, where SHK can implement damn near any strategem he wants, and there's not a single person on the opposite side who'd be able to comprehend the shit he'd be doing. And unlike Ousen, SHK himself can execute assassination strategies himself like Riboku did with Makou, except on a bigger scale due to his martial prowess being higher than Riboku's so far. Adding on to that the strategical synnergy between himself and 3 vassals.
Adding on to that Juko'ou himself can strategically mindfuck the Seika army, let alone when combined with SHK.
Honestly, the more i'm writing this out... yea SHK clears this mid-diff.
TBC: If the scale of the battle was smaller... like 20k vs 20k / 40k vs 40k, I'd give it to Seika no doubt. Different generals are just suited for different scenarios, somebody like SHK is just a monster in a scenario like this.