Character Discussion So Sanji's emotions didn't make him stronger. Now, does that mean that Judge was right all along? Please explain!

#1
I've been trying to "hammer" this point on for months at this point, but it seems like Oda can't really grasp the "severity" of the situation with Sanji's character writing, he simply cannot see the bigger picture behind his narrative. Sanji is the only one who has his emotions intact amongst Judge's children, yes, Reiju was kind towards Sanji but her emotions aren't intact, unlike in case of Sanji, and Judge tried to erase his children's emotions because he thought that emotions are weaknesses–and only by erasing them you can become strong. And throughout post-timskip one piece, AND SPICEFICLY POST-TIMSKIP ONE PIECE, where Sanji's Germa plot line has been revealed, Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures. It was because of Sanji's emotions that Sanji: Lost to Judge, got manipulated and used by his family, attacked his own captain, put his friends in a very dangerous position etc. And now, in the battle against Queen when Sanji has the opportunity to achieve a success thanks to his emotions, thanks to his willpower and the desire to protect his loved ones... HE JUST AWAKENS THE GERMA GENES THANKS TO THE RAID SUIT!!!
:lawsigh::lusalty:

Sanji's plot line has been developed so poorly, that at the and of that plot line, it turns out that Judge was right all along. How could Oda f*ck this up soooooooooooooooooo badly? How? What was he thinking?

How the fu*king hell he failed to see that GIANT hole in his own narrative?
Please, sobody, explain to me how this happened, how could an established author do such a horrendous mistake???
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#3
Not sure how the Germa genes through the raid suit have anything to do with Sanji's natural growth throughout the manga without those things, which relies on sheer willpower and emotions. Like what exactly is the fuck up??

Sanji without the suits is stronger than his brothers without the suits. Sanji proved his point. That ended the story on emotions stuff there.


At this point the plot isn't about Judge and emotions crap, it's about Sanji accepting the help from his family in the form of the raid suit or not. Is going to accept his family? Or is going to continue denying it. That's about it. Y'all really out here reaching for the starts with some of this stuff regarding Sanji bruhz.

The only shitting on Sanji's character was done with removal of everything that happened with Sanji-Pudding from Sanji. Which regressed Sanji into single pervy dog. And the other being the continuing of his gags without any development. Everything regarding his powerups or w.e fits perfectly with his storyline.
 
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#4
Sanji’s powerup should have been an emotion powered fire coat that burned Queen, made him too hot to handle and melted his sword when it came close to him.

That would actually have proved Judge wrong.

Not “oh look, I can use your experiments but still have emotions.” Still Judge’s work.
I was thinking about the same, simple but effective + it would fit with Sanji's hot heart narrative.
 
#5
I've been trying to "hammer" this point on for months at this point, but it seems like Oda can't really grasp the "severity" of the situation with Sanji's character writing, he simply cannot see the bigger picture behind his narrative. Sanji is the only one who has his emotions intact amongst Judge's children, yes, Reiju was kind towards Sanji but her emotions aren't intact, unlike in case of Sanji, and Judge tried to erase his children's emotions because he thought that emotions are weaknesses–and only by erasing them you can become strong. And throughout post-timskip one piece, AND SPICEFICLY POST-TIMSKIP ONE PIECE, where Sanji's Germa plot line has been revealed, Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures. It was because of Sanji's emotions that Sanji: Lost to Judge, got manipulated and used by his family, attacked his own captain, put his friends in a very dangerous position etc. And now, in the battle against Queen when Sanji has the opportunity to achieve a success thanks to his emotions, thanks to his willpower and the desire to protect his loved ones... HE JUST AWAKENS THE GERMA GENES THANKS TO THE RAID SUIT!!!
:lawsigh::lusalty:

Sanji's plot line has been developed so poorly, that at the and of that plot line, it turns out that Judge was right all along. How could Oda f*ck this up soooooooooooooooooo badly? How? What was he thinking?

How the fu*king hell he failed to see that GIANT hole in his own narrative?
Please, sobody, explain to me how this happened, how could an established author do such a horrendous mistake???
@Queen
@Zoro
@Van
@playa4321
@Celestia
@Grumpy Zoro
@Ice devil slayer
@KiriNigiri
@Veljko2000
@rednose
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Monet
@Veku
@BigChungus2018
@Crooc
@Reborn
@BossYimz
@Robin swan
@gojo
@Fenaker
@PuckTheGreat
@RayanOO
@ShishioIsBack
@Orojackson Refugee
@Greenbeard
@Dragomir
@Sword God Ryuma
@Sentinel
@IceWitch
@Himura
@DarkWitch
@stormylife
@Mr. Anderson
@yunzabit heights
@Monster trio
@Vonal
@Don DaSlayer
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@Master OF Haki
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@bennbeckman
@Thabeast
@SaintBellkin
@SinOfGreed
@Zenos7
@Lucas
@JioFreed
@pedxi
@Zowo
@Luslec
@style
@Luffy is the mc
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@KINGKONGGUN15
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@worst pirate
@ZenZu
@LuffyMazino
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@Jackteo
@Tamerani
@Marimo_420
@Garp the Fist
@Kejon
@Fukki
@Flower
@Sunita
@RZ.119
@Sade
@Skiddo
@KageyamaShoyo
@Den_Den_Mushi
@Elcadar
@Finalbeta
@Bullet
@Dark Hound
@Patryipe
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@Owl Ki
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@Starbound Beast D. Draig
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@SmokedOut
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@Celestial D. Dragon
It's not a flaw. Judge was right that's all.
 
#6
Sanji without the suits is stronger than his brothers without the suits. Sanji proved his point. That ended the story on emotions stuff there.
Was he? We never saw them fight, we only saw him fight against Judge but he lost that fight because of his emotions. The problem is, is that throughout post-timskip Sanji never had any victory, the timskip, which was made to prepare them for the new world, had almost no effect on Sanji outside of him learning haki. Sanji's only victory, success in the new world is not because of his training and emotions, but because of Judge.
 
#7
I've been trying to "hammer" this point on for months at this point, but it seems like Oda can't really grasp the "severity" of the situation with Sanji's character writing, he simply cannot see the bigger picture behind his narrative. Sanji is the only one who has his emotions intact amongst Judge's children, yes, Reiju was kind towards Sanji but her emotions aren't intact, unlike in case of Sanji, and Judge tried to erase his children's emotions because he thought that emotions are weaknesses–and only by erasing them you can become strong. And throughout post-timskip one piece, AND SPICEFICLY POST-TIMSKIP ONE PIECE, where Sanji's Germa plot line has been revealed, Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures. It was because of Sanji's emotions that Sanji: Lost to Judge, got manipulated and used by his family, attacked his own captain, put his friends in a very dangerous position etc. And now, in the battle against Queen when Sanji has the opportunity to achieve a success thanks to his emotions, thanks to his willpower and the desire to protect his loved ones... HE JUST AWAKENS THE GERMA GENES THANKS TO THE RAID SUIT!!!
:lawsigh::lusalty:

Sanji's plot line has been developed so poorly, that at the and of that plot line, it turns out that Judge was right all along. How could Oda f*ck this up soooooooooooooooooo badly? How? What was he thinking?

How the fu*king hell he failed to see that GIANT hole in his own narrative?
Please, sobody, explain to me how this happened, how could an established author do such a horrendous mistake???
@Queen
@Zoro
@Van
@playa4321
@Celestia
@Grumpy Zoro
@Ice devil slayer
@KiriNigiri
@Veljko2000
@rednose
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Monet
@Veku
@BigChungus2018
@Crooc
@Reborn
@BossYimz
@Robin swan
@gojo
@Fenaker
@PuckTheGreat
@RayanOO
@ShishioIsBack
@Orojackson Refugee
@Greenbeard
@Dragomir
@Sword God Ryuma
@Sentinel
@IceWitch
@Himura
@DarkWitch
@stormylife
@Mr. Anderson
@yunzabit heights
@Monster trio
@Vonal
@Don DaSlayer
@Xione
@Master OF Haki
@Topi Jerami
@Yukihime
@bennbeckman
@Thabeast
@SaintBellkin
@SinOfGreed
@Zenos7
@Lucas
@JioFreed
@pedxi
@Zowo
@Luslec
@style
@Luffy is the mc
@Guymieux
@Mikail
@KINGKONGGUN15
@RyumaZoro
@worst pirate
@ZenZu
@LuffyMazino
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@HAJIKATA
@Jackteo
@Tamerani
@Marimo_420
@Garp the Fist
@Kejon
@Fukki
@Flower
@Sunita
@RZ.119
@Sade
@Skiddo
@KageyamaShoyo
@Den_Den_Mushi
@Elcadar
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@Bullet
@Dark Hound
@Patryipe
@Light D Lamperouge
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@zorojurou
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What happens is that Oda has 3 choices:

1/ Sanji is not a part of the M3 anymore because he can’t keep up with Luffy and Zoro. If he keeps up with them whille he never trains, it will undermine Zoro and Luffy’s progression

2/Make Sanji actively train like Zoro and Luffy and/or have several hard diff fights

3/Makes Sanji grows by using what he learned on Okama island, be it Okama Kenpo or receipts that would make him stronger overtime

The issues with those 3 choices were :

1/ Oda did not want to change his dynamic

2/It would have been really out of character for Sanji to pass less time in the kitchen and more time training. And Sanji could not have more fighting screen time than Zoro

3/ It would requires to focus more on him and less on other side characters


So Oda create a 4 choices:

4/ Give Sanji a power up that allows him to keeps up with his M3 pairs without having to spend time on him or show him training.

And as a lot of people has pointed out it was the easiest choice. Unfortunately, it goes against the thematic he build in WCi.

Basically, this 4th choice is the result of Oda neglecting the strawhats post-time skip
 
#8
I really didn't understood that part too, Sanji x Queen was a fight about resistence/AP.
Sanji's low deffense was one of his natural weakness, Oda even did him a CoO specialist to balance that.
Seriously, there was no need to bring this Germa Powers. Hotter flames was enough...

I don't think this awakening ruins his character, but there's no benefit either.
Oda had better narrative choices, that's a fact.
 
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#9
It's not a flaw. Judge was right that's all.
So you're telling me that humans should be heartless pricks? Storytelling should humanize us and not the other way around.
Post automatically merged:

At this point the plot isn't about Judge and emotions crap, it's about Sanji accepting the help from his family in the form of the raid suit or not. Is going to accept his family? Or is going to continue denying it. That's about it. Y'all really out here reaching for the starts with some of this stuff regarding Sanji bruhz.
That narrative has nothing going for him because Sanji never had any, at least a tit bit level of success in post-timskip where his backstory was revealed, the fact that Judge did so many horrible things because of his believes was never challenged.
 
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#10
Was he? We never saw them fight, we only saw him fight against Judge but he lost that fight because of his emotions. The problem is, is that throughout post-timskip Sanji never had any victory, the timskip, which was made to prepare them for the new world, had almost no effect on Sanji outside of him learning haki. Sanji's only victory, success in the new world is not because of his training and emotions, but because of Judge.
Simply because 1 loses because of his emotions doesn't equate to that person being weaker than the other. Judge had to use a bait in order to beat Sanji, that alone shat on Judge's point. Had Judge beaten him properly then Judge's point would hold, but he didn't. All Sanji showed was he's a better human being than Judge. Any human being could be used emotionally to take a L, even when Sanji becomes a top tier he can be emotionally used to take a L, surely you're not gonna claim Judge was right then.


Sanji not having any victories =/= Sanji not having experiences that made him grow strong. You're ignoring all the emotional things Sanji went through at WCI, which is the Sanji at base in Wano is completely different from the one at PH, where he went through some hardcore physical pain.

"But because of Judge", it was either going to be Sanji making his own something or somebody doing it for him. How did Sanji earn that suit? He had to go through emotional trauma from his family, and then after going through that trauma he had to comeback and endure some more, then finishing it off with him taking a dump on the entire belief system of his family, when he ends up saving their dumbasses. His emotions led to him coming to the defense of the people of Wano, where's he's now becoming renowned.


Realistically, Sanji & training can only go so far when it comes to a character who can only use legs. All top tiers & YCS/VAs use every single body part in body. If we're realistically expecting Sanji to be a top tier with only using legs then that's simply naivety on our part. He was either gonna have to get something made for him or make it himself. The suit only continues his storyline of emotions, can he emotionally accept the gift from his family and accept them again after they caused him such trauma or no? If he accepts it, then he emotionally grows, if he doesn't, then he stays the way he is. Either way emotions play a crucial role in his power up.

I fail to see how this is a problem, since even if he starts using the raid suit, he's still gonna have to actually train after that to get stronger and what have you.
 
#14
1/ Sanji is not a part of the M3 anymore because he can’t keep up with Luffy and Zoro. If he keeps up with them whille he never trains, it will undermine Zoro and Luffy’s progression
Sanji will always be part of monster trio one way or the other.
2/Make Sanji actively train like Zoro and Luffy and/or have several hard diff fights
That's not going to change anything because we've already passed the Rubicon.
 
#15
That narrative has nothing going for him because Sanji never had any, at least a tit bit level of success in post-timskip where his backstory was revealed, the fact that Judge did so many horrible things because of his believes was never challenged.
Not sure what you mean it was never challenged. There was an entire story of Judge vs Zeff going on with Sanji, in which the conclusion was Zeff's teachings were correct and right. The entire thing with Judge ended in Sanji handing a big fat L, especially with this panel. Where he essentially tells the mf, thanks to Zeff's teachings, the mf is still alive. Sanji's kindness which was fostered further by Zeff, saved the Germa 66. Not sure how much of a bigger L you want Sanji to hand them man.

 
#16
Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures.
As in his emotions were taken leverage off? .. yea sure because that just proves the whole point of his humanity.. would you expect Luffy and zoro to cut or blitz through the human shield with not 1 dreg of sympathy.. its not sanji's fault that judge didn't give him a fair fight.. rather than blaming sanji for halting his attacks for the benefit of others blame Judge for his ruthlessness.

A failure due to emotion in such cases is the biggest success a human can achieve.. he may have been gotten the benefit out of but not his mistake for being hesitant on slaying men..

humility and integrity is also a type of success

Zoro and Luffy not fighting Bellamy for spewing BS about Luffy's dream andgot beat up wasn't a loss to them.. but a big win in mentality and ideology.. a fight not worth fighting..

success isn't always contingent upon what you do to achieve something .. sometimes its something invaluable that you preserve at the cost of something trivial in comparison


as for literal success.. the next chap DJ go brrrrr
 
#17
Not sure how the Germa genes through the raid suit have anything to do with Sanji's natural growth throughout the manga without those things, which relies on sheer willpower and emotions. Like what exactly is the fuck up??

Sanji without the suits is stronger than his brothers without the suits. Sanji proved his point. That ended the story on emotions stuff there.


At this point the plot isn't about Judge and emotions crap, it's about Sanji accepting the help from his family in the form of the raid suit or not. Is going to accept his family? Or is going to continue denying it. That's about it. Y'all really out here reaching for the starts with some of this stuff regarding Sanji bruhz.

The only shitting on Sanji's character was done with removal of everything that happened with Sanji-Pudding from Sanji. Which regressed Sanji into single pervy dog. And the other being the continuing of his gags without any development. Everything regarding his powerups or w.e fits perfectly with his storyline.
Sanji did not prove in WCI to be stronger than Ichi or Niji stop making shit up.
 
#19
2/Make Sanji actively train like Zoro and Luffy and/or have several hard diff fights
This simply does not work.

Zoro - Luffy both use their entire body.

Sanji - uses half his body

If Sanji was fully utilizing his body like them, then the idea of actively training like Zoro & Luffy making him on par with them would work, but he doesn't. That shit can only get him so far, and it'd be completely ridiculous for a guy who only uses legs to make it up to top tier hood with just his legs when people are using their entire bodies + weapons + DF abilities to get to that level. The Germa suit is the best solution, or he would've had to go the route of having franky or somebody make something for him to enhance in one way or another.


There's also the sheer hardcore fact that there's a gap in training between Zoro & Luffy as well. Luffy's main growth is through extreme fights, Zoro's is through training on the side. Sanji fights neither roles, he's not the MC so he's not gonna have Luffy's privilidge, he's also not just a guy dedicated solely to fighting, so training freak like Zoro isn't gonna work.
Post automatically merged:

Sanji did not prove in WCI to be stronger than Ichi or Niji stop making shit up.
The idiots who were helpless before Sanji and co had to bring their raid suits? lmao alright.
 
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