Character Discussion Teas, webs, and a man's resolution. Why is the "Black Maria" plotline a moment of Character Development for Sanji?

Did this thread help you understand a story made for a 15 years old Oda?


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#1
A few disclaimers. This thread is not made with the intention of convincing anyone to LIKE the characters or his quirks. This is purely to explain the narrative implications of a controversial plot about Sanji's character. There were so many Sanji threads these last days, that I actually wanted to postpone this one so it would not just "another one".
But @Blother basically begged me to do it, so I, being a benevolent entity that I am, answered his prays.
(Sanji is GOAT).

First point to be adressed. Sanji's refusal to hit a woman:
Why is that? Is it PURELY because Zeff told him its a bad thing to do? No. According to a SBS, Oda stated that Sanji is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of hitting a woman.
"bu-bu-but Big Meme...". Oda also stated that Sanji was not attacking BM, just blocking her strike at Reiju. Wanna complain about it? Complain it to the dude that wrote that technicality.
What matters is: the character can't do it. It's already in his subconscious. If you watched Inception, imagine as if it was an "idea" planted on Sanji's mind. It grows, it defines him. Now that we established that he will NEVER DO IT, let's talk about what he CAN DO.

Let's travel back to Ennies Lobby. He tried to take the key from Kalifa, but without being able to actually hit her, he fell victim to her "soap" power, that basically destroys brawlers. "He WaS gOinG tO lEt RobIN DiE". Yes. Does the character feel bad about it? Yes, he does. Can the character do anything about it? No, he can't. And if you think it's all a matter of "will", then we might as well make the entire field of Psychology irrelevant. So fuck that.
Dude feels bad about not being able to get the key, and feels guilty because it could fuck up Robin. He is not unaware of the consequences of this limitation. I'm also gonna briefly mention that he tells Usopp the "there are things you can't do, and there are things I can't do". So he understands his limitation but he counts on his friends to have his back, meanwhile he backs up his friends in any way he CAN. Nami confronts him and tells that he should just "run" when put in a situation like that, than proceeds to say she is impressed by his resolution.


Then, we get to Black Maria's plotline.
He got captured by webs. You know. Sticky things spiders use to trap stuff. Imagine that. Webs that do web stuff. What did Sanji do in that situation? Tried to beat Black Maria by not hitting her? No. He tried to....RUN.
HO.
LY.
FUCK.

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT, THIS TIME, HE DID WHAT NAMI SAID HE SHOULD DO? HE COMPROMISED THE PART OF HIS CHIVALRY THAT HE COULD?????? IMAGINE THAT!

Now another topic.
Oda has a sense of "chivalry" completely outdated, that, in fact, actually reiterate a chauvinist way of thinking that is: "women are these weak and fragile creatures and must be protected at all costs". I REALLY am not going to extend a debate about feminism here because reasons. But that's irrevelant.
In Oda's mind, this "chivalry" is a good thing, and he expects his male audience to take a lesson here. Dont hit women. Wow, much complex.
During Kalifa's scenario, Sanji did not ask for help, because he could not simply ask "Nami", who is a person he views as a fragile creature he must protect, to fight for him.
Now we get back to Black Maria.
First, he tries to run away, but defeats all the male subordinates before that, so he made what he could to weaken BM's forces. But, spider, web. You know the drill. Good stuff to capture and restrain someone.
Then Black Maria proceeds to beat him and tells him there's a communicator that will resonate throughout the entire castle, so he should call Nico Robin, so BM can capture her.
Now, if it WERE the SAME Sanji we had in EL, he would view Robin as this weak and fragile creature that must be protected at all costs. Still a chauvinist way of looking at women. He tried to run already, but that didnt work. So, EL Sanji would just take the beating until passing out or dying.
HE IMMEDIATELY CALLS FOR ROBIN.
WHY?
Because he views Robin as a strong and capable woman and fighter, that can easily take care of Black Maria.
"But but trap".
Dude, he said he was being held captive. And there's a message resonating throughout the entire castle. Who the fuck needs more than 2 brain cells to realize there's an ambush waiting for her? Especially a woman that spent more than 20 years on the run? My goodness. If you think Robin would just barge him and consider this possibility, than you clearly think Robin is a freaking moron.
There. He learned from his past mistake, trusted his teammate, tried to do what he could. Did things differently from EL and now can run around the castle beating some Beast Pirate's ass.
Yay. Development.
"bu-bu-but CP0.."
Dude, look up something called "metagaming DnD". That's all I'm going to say about that.


Again, this is not a thread made to "convince" you that "sanji is actually cool" or whatever. I think we are all grown enough to make these kinds of decisions by ourselves.
But if you DID have any misconceptions about why that moment WAS a moment of development, there you go.
"But I think that's laaaaaame".
So? Do I tell you what you should wear, or eat or watch? I'm not telling you to "like the color blue". I'm just explaining to you that "the sky is blue". (if you come here with some "actually it's just a refraction event that makes the sky look blue" or whatever, a preemptive "nobody likes a smartass" to you).

Cheers.
:cheers:
 

Blother

Shimotsuki Season!!!
.
#5
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
As you said, it is lame.
And yes I agree.
All this screaming and shouting from Sanji defenders and your fanbase for such a mediocre “character development” feat that doesn’t even contribute for the greater picture of the entire stories narrative.

This isn’t earth shattering. But it is what it is.
 
#8
I mean atleast Sanji got character development to view women as strong. Unlike a certain moss-head.
Which legit bothers me.
There was always the "women grow weaker than men" for Kuina, and Zoro said it was just an excuse. I really thought this theme would be explored through Tashigi....but....well....Meh.
Dude didnt beat a single woman in order to get stronger.
He was already stronger than the muscular woman from whiskey peak, he was already stronger than Monet.
All of his "stepping stones" to get stronger, are men. Mr1, Ohm, Kaku, Ryuma, now Crydo.
There isn't a single contender for WSS that is a woman. The best we have is Big Mom, who can just use Prometheus and Zeus as well as Napoleon. Zoro's future opponents are all men. An Admiral, Shiryu, Mihawk.
It's actually mindblowing how Oda simply ignored this theme for Zoro. :zosleepy:
 

Chrono

Symbol of Despair
.
#9
Which legit bothers me.
There was always the "women grow weaker than men" for Kuina, and Zoro said it was just an excuse. I really thought this theme would be explored through Tashigi....but....well....Meh.
Dude didnt beat a single woman in order to get stronger.
He was already stronger than the muscular woman from whiskey peak, he was already stronger than Monet.
All of his "stepping stones" to get stronger, are men. Mr1, Ohm, Kaku, Ryuma, now Crydo.
There isn't a single contender for WSS that is a woman. The best we have is Big Mom, who can just use Prometheus and Zeus as well as Napoleon. Zoro's future opponents are all men. An Admiral, Shiryu, Mihawk.
It's actually mindblowing how Oda simply ignored this theme for Zoro. :zosleepy:
He literally got pissed at Enel for attacking Robin.....because she was a "woman". Showing that he sees women in general as inferior.
 
#12
As someone who is neither a Sanji fanboy, nor hater- my view on Sanji and his whole 'man's resolution' or whatever, is frankly i just think its overrated and has been used to death, to the point of gimmickry.

imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo.

The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether.

What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact.

For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here.

Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??

Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical.

And if we're gonna be realistic (and we shouldn't be), what does sanji have to say when someone tells him he probably already kicked a woman, before he was even born and still in her mother's womb?? Its not out of the realm of possibility. What does sanji have to say to that?

:whitepress:
 
#13
As someone who is neither a Sanji fanboy, nor hater- my view on Sanji and his whole 'man's resolution' or whatever, is frankly i just think its overrated and has been used to death, to the point of gimmickry.

imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo.

The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether.

What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact.

For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here.

Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??

Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical.

And if we're gonna be realistic (and we shouldn't be), what does sanji have to say when someone tells him he probably already kicked a woman, before he was even born and still in her mother's womb?? Its not out of the realm of possibility. What does sanji have to say to that?

:whitepress:
Dude, I would much rather you just say "nah, i dont like the character" then going through the trouble of writing so much BS.
"And if we're gonna be realistic (and we shouldn't be), what does sanji have to say when someone tells him he probably already kicked a woman, before he was even born and still in her mother's womb?? Its not out of the realm of possibility. What does sanji have to say to that?"
Lmao.
Ok, let me humor you a bit and answer this garbage tier comparison.
He, as I said, learned about "not hitting woman" with Zeff.
Unless Zeff was inside the womb as well telling him that already, your comparison it so out of touch with reality and reason, that I can't even say it's "wrong". It's just as weird as a bunch of random words put together.
Congratulations.
Wtf.
:pepecafe:
 
#14
Dude, I would much rather you just say "nah, i dont like the character" then going through the trouble of writing so much BS.
"And if we're gonna be realistic (and we shouldn't be), what does sanji have to say when someone tells him he probably already kicked a woman, before he was even born and still in her mother's womb?? Its not out of the realm of possibility. What does sanji have to say to that?"
Lmao.
Ok, let me humor you a bit and answer this garbage tier comparison.
He, as I said, learned about "not hitting woman" with Zeff.
Unless Zeff was inside the womb as well telling him that already, your comparison it so out of touch with reality and reason, that I can't even say it's "wrong". It's just as weird as a bunch of random words put together.
Congratulations.
Wtf.
:pepecafe:
telling me to simply just say 'nah, i don't like the character' is just equating to: "don't like him? don't have to." So what's the whole point in including the poll then??

As for your comment on my 'BS', it just perfectly showed my point. My point in that comment was that sanji's context of character development shouldn't be taken with what's shown in the pages, otherwise we're just devolving into as low as we can go looking for sanji's character development. His fans already equate character development=fights and feats before. Now its changed to 'doing almost nothing'= character development. Sanji believing in Robin ain't really good character development for Sanji, the straw hats have been believing in each other for years now. This time is really no different.

And for your second comment on my 'garbage tier comparison', my whole point was that Oda's way of writing sanji interactions with female enemy characters is stale. They just meet, sanji doesn't fight serious, and he loses. And this was done exactly the same before with kalifa. So if isn't any different now compared to back then, how exactly is that character development for sanji??? Robin sweeps in to fight sanji just like how nami swept in to fight kalifa back then- what's different and changed?? Where's the character development??

As for your third and final comment, i was saying that sanji is a hypocrite. He already kicked big mom, he already broke his rule of not kicking a women. I don't see why he can't do it again to black maria. And even if he doesn't do it that way, i also showed you a way that sanji can that also doesn't have to be sanji kicking a women.

And what is your reply?

That my explanation doesn't count because in your words: "Zeff didn't tell Sanji these things while zeff was still in his mother's womb." Is this a joke or are you seriously implying that Sanji's character development can only happen when he listens to Zeff?? <This right here is your example of quote in your words of "a bunch of random words put together."

Yeah nice argument.

:pepecafe:
 
#15
Alright, let's tango.



"imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo."

One Piece characters ARE caricatures. They've always been. The exaggerated expressions, the dumb quirks, etc. So, not really much of point saying that's a bad thing when is something so intrinsic to the story in general. Sanji changing his ways and start fighting women is indeed character development. But "character development" is not a one way road with only one possible outcome. That's a misconception. Also most characters are stagnated. There's no clear changing. Only new moves.

"The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether."

Not every development has to be this monumental scene. Small tweeks and small actions changes are good to make it look more natural.

"What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact. "

He wasn't able. He failed to get the key. Black Maria didnt have a key to be taken. He didnt need anything from her. So why bother fighting her? He only used the knives to cut the paste. After that he finished Wanze with his kicks.

"For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here. "

The same scene can serve multiple purposes. It's most obvious reason is setting up Robin's shining moment, but, in a smaller scale, serves as a moment to show that Sanji is willing to do something he would not do before. Oda made Robin herself thanks Sanji for what he did.

"
Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??

Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical. "

Another misconception. Sanji didnt "attack" (and thats the keyword) Big Mom. He blocked her. That's something Oda himself stated.
 
#16
Alright, let's tango.



"imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo."

One Piece characters ARE caricatures. They've always been. The exaggerated expressions, the dumb quirks, etc. So, not really much of point saying that's a bad thing when is something so intrinsic to the story in general. Sanji changing his ways and start fighting women is indeed character development. But "character development" is not a one way road with only one possible outcome. That's a misconception. Also most characters are stagnated. There's no clear changing. Only new moves.

"The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether."

Not every development has to be this monumental scene. Small tweeks and small actions changes are good to make it look more natural.

"What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact. "

He wasn't able. He failed to get the key. Black Maria didnt have a key to be taken. He didnt need anything from her. So why bother fighting her? He only used the knives to cut the paste. After that he finished Wanze with his kicks.

"For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here. "

The same scene can serve multiple purposes. It's most obvious reason is setting up Robin's shining moment, but, in a smaller scale, serves as a moment to show that Sanji is willing to do something he would not do before. Oda made Robin herself thanks Sanji for what he did.

"
Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??

Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical. "

Another misconception. Sanji didnt "attack" (and thats the keyword) Big Mom. He blocked her. That's something Oda himself stated.
This is gonna be my last reply to you regarding our conversation on the matter since I realize we're both basing it on a matter of personal opinion, rather than objectives facts- so what you and I agree or disagree with each other won't really matter since we are just speaking what we believe and nothing else.

"imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo."

One Piece characters ARE caricatures. They've always been. The exaggerated expressions, the dumb quirks, etc. So, not really much of point saying that's a bad thing when is something so intrinsic to the story in general. Sanji changing his ways and start fighting women is indeed character development. But "character development" is not a one way road with only one possible outcome. That's a misconception. Also most characters are stagnated. There's no clear changing. Only new moves.

I never said caricatures are bad or aren't allowed, i just said that they aren't character development, which is the whole thing you are arguing for in this thread. They are not character development because nothing new had been added, nothing has been changed and replaced. Its not character development if it has been done before. Its not the first time sanji has been helped by a woman or asked for a woman to help him. Nami helped sanji back in Enies Lobby and Sanji has asked Robin for help back on Fishman Island. Hell even Reiju helped sanji when he was still a kid. Sanji is still the same sanji.

"The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether."

Not every development has to be this monumental scene. Small tweeks and small actions changes are good to make it look more natural.

It may be for you, but not for me. Like i voted for in the poll along with many other people, i don't consider Sanji calling Robin for help a big deal worth making a thread for.

"What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact. "

He wasn't able. He failed to get the key. Black Maria didnt have a key to be taken. He didnt need anything from her. So why bother fighting her? He only used the knives to cut the paste. After that he finished Wanze with his kicks.

I don't know what you mean here. Sanji can air walk, only uses his feet to fight AND can produce flaming kicks. He could've just heated up his whole body and burned away Black Maria's webs-since in her webs Sanji is no longer in the cuffs. We know this because Brook freed Sanji just by freezing and breaking the webs- but we don't see the cuffs-they were gone-sanji didn't have cuffs on when he was in the spiderweb. Sanji could have done this BEFORE getting caught and cuffed in the first place. He also could have done this during being restrained and set himself on fire and freed himself since after the timeskip he no longer needs to spin to use damble jambe- he can set his whole body on fire in an instant without moving. He did it against wdatsumi on Fishman island, no reason he can't do it here. And since brook cut them-they aren't made of sea stone either. It just shows Oda's inconsistency. And even if he didn't want to fight Black Maria, he could've used his stealth black raid suit to get behind her and slip away. But of course Sanji just HAD to get caught by Black Maria. It just goes to show Oda is doing this on purpose to use it as the setup for the Black Maria vs Robin confrontation. Brook froze Black Maria's webs to free sanji, nowhere did i see a key being used to free him, so the whole key argument doesn't even make sense.

"For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here. "

The same scene can serve multiple purposes. It's most obvious reason is setting up Robin's shining moment, but, in a smaller scale, serves as a moment to show that Sanji is willing to do something he would not do before. Oda made Robin herself thanks Sanji for what he did.

Like i said that already happened with sanji and nami during Enies Lobby. Nothing new. Robin is irrelevant here, you're thread that you made specifically askes for Sanji's character development. Robin's character development doesn't matter here.

"
Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??


Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical. "

Another misconception. Sanji didnt "attack" (and thats the keyword) Big Mom. He blocked her. That's something Oda himself stated.

Oh please. call it what you want. Why didn't sanji 'block' black maria then?? And if you really wanna play this game- if sanji is allowed to make contact with a female so long as it is not touching her body, then why didn't sanji attack black maria's lower body half. he didn't even think of that??? Sanji is smart enough to trick Bon Clay into changing his face back into his own so Sanji can hit his face and not Nami, but Sanji never thought about kicking the spider under black maria and not black maria herself??? And if he doesn't wanna and can't fight black maria then he should've just run. Dude can fly can't he? Use black stealth to turn invisible and run?

One last thing i'll add too is that the fact that you don't even include a straight 'NO' answer in your poll just shows you're not even honest about asking for others' opinions to create meaningful discussion. You're just stroking your own ego to make yourself feel better. Farming W points is what this thread was created for. And with like only just 8 people including me that replied to this thread, it just shows i'm not the only who knows this is a bait thread.
 
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#17
This is gonna be my last reply to you regarding our conversation on the matter since I realize we're both basing it on a matter of personal opinion, rather than objectives facts- so what you and I agree or disagree with each other won't really matter since we are just speaking what we believe and nothing else.

"imo it doesn't advance sanji's character, it just turns him into a caricature. And his confrontation with Black Maria and calling for help from Robin doesn't really make a difference or change my opinion of Sanji because he's just shifting the responsibility to someone else - that he himself and his principles won't allow. He doesn't make an effort to improve himself to find a way to maintain his principles while still being able to confront female enemies to protect his friends. That's not character development. That's character stagnation imo."

One Piece characters ARE caricatures. They've always been. The exaggerated expressions, the dumb quirks, etc. So, not really much of point saying that's a bad thing when is something so intrinsic to the story in general. Sanji changing his ways and start fighting women is indeed character development. But "character development" is not a one way road with only one possible outcome. That's a misconception. Also most characters are stagnated. There's no clear changing. Only new moves.

I never said caricatures are bad or aren't allowed, i just said that they aren't character development, which is the whole thing you are arguing for in this thread. They are not character development because nothing new had been added, nothing has been changed and replaced. Its not character development if it has been done before. Its not the first time sanji has been helped by a woman or asked for a woman to help him. Nami helped sanji back in Enies Lobby and Sanji has asked Robin for help back on Fishman Island. Hell even Reiju helped sanji when he was still a kid. Sanji is still the same sanji.

"The only one good thing that i saw from sanji's whole ordeal was giving a chance for Robin to prove herself, meaning that Sanji at least haves faith and believes in Robin. So kudos to him, credit should be given where credits due. But beyond that, for me nothing else has changed as far character development goes- at least nothing substantial or fundamental, because Sanji is just straight up shifting the challenge that he himself can't meet head on to somebody else, avoiding the challenge altogether."

Not every development has to be this monumental scene. Small tweeks and small actions changes are good to make it look more natural.

It may be for you, but not for me. Like i voted for in the poll along with many other people, i don't consider Sanji calling Robin for help a big deal worth making a thread for.

"What truly blows my mind about this whole thing, is that Oda did put Sanji in a similar situation before where he was forced to fighting against his principles, and was able to fight it head on by finding an alternative way. Its bizarre why Oda can't do it again now with Sanji and Black Maria. I'm talking about his fight with Wanze of CP0 back in the Water Seven/Enies Lobby Arc. Sanji couldn't win the fight with just his feet because Wanze's noodles would just absorb them, so sanji had to resort to using knives-in the hand to win the fight. Yes he technically broke his principles- but it was against ingredients, so for the cook his principles still weren't breached and remained intact. "

He wasn't able. He failed to get the key. Black Maria didnt have a key to be taken. He didnt need anything from her. So why bother fighting her? He only used the knives to cut the paste. After that he finished Wanze with his kicks.

I don't know what you mean here. Sanji can air walk, only uses his feet to fight AND can produce flaming kicks. He could've just heated up his whole body and burned away Black Maria's webs-since in her webs Sanji is no longer in the cuffs. We know this because Brook freed Sanji just by freezing and breaking the webs- but we don't see the cuffs-they were gone-sanji didn't have cuffs on when he was in the spiderweb. Sanji could have done this BEFORE getting caught and cuffed in the first place. He also could have done this during being restrained and set himself on fire and freed himself since after the timeskip he no longer needs to spin to use damble jambe- he can set his whole body on fire in an instant without moving. He did it against wdatsumi on Fishman island, no reason he can't do it here. And since brook cut them-they aren't made of sea stone either. It just shows Oda's inconsistency. And even if he didn't want to fight Black Maria, he could've used his stealth black raid suit to get behind her and slip away. But of course Sanji just HAD to get caught by Black Maria. It just goes to show Oda is doing this on purpose to use it as the setup for the Black Maria vs Robin confrontation. Brook froze Black Maria's webs to free sanji, nowhere did i see a key being used to free him, so the whole key argument doesn't even make sense.

"For sanji vs black maria, imo shifting the responsibility by calling robin for help isn't character development. Its just an easy excuse imo to finally give robin her long overdue fight at the expense of Sanji's humiliation, so as a Robin fan-on behalf of all the robin fans i say thanks anyway. A better way to handle it could have been sanji simply using his flames to burn all of black maria's web and kicking the webs onto black maria, constricting her and then kicking a hole in the ground to drop her into. Improvising is key here. "

The same scene can serve multiple purposes. It's most obvious reason is setting up Robin's shining moment, but, in a smaller scale, serves as a moment to show that Sanji is willing to do something he would not do before. Oda made Robin herself thanks Sanji for what he did.

Like i said that already happened with sanji and nami during Enies Lobby. Nothing new. Robin is irrelevant here, you're thread that you made specifically askes for Sanji's character development. Robin's character development doesn't matter here.

"
Isn't Sanji's whole principle of not kicking women only restricting him to not having physical contact and touch? Why can't he use his big brain of his (that he is so praised in the community for) and figure something around it??


Also please don't tell me that Sanji upholding his principles of not hitting women is all that noble, he already broke his own golden rule when he kicked big mom's fist back on WCI (which poetically enough was ACTUAL character development-AKA adding a new dimension to his then unchanged character, that being ugly and old women are now excused from Sanji's no touch list). We're already past the point where sanji's still a virgin to female physical abuse, jokingly speaking anyway-but true nonetheless. If sanji can't even accept that fact-or that his principles only apply to beautiful women who can run catwalks, then its just hypocritical. "

Another misconception. Sanji didnt "attack" (and thats the keyword) Big Mom. He blocked her. That's something Oda himself stated.

Oh please. call it what you want. Why didn't sanji 'block' black maria then?? And if you really wanna play this game- if sanji is allowed to make contact with a female so long as it is not touching her body, then why didn't sanji attack black maria's lower body half. he didn't even think of that??? Sanji is smart enough to trick Bon Clay into changing his face back into his own so Sanji can hit his face and not Nami, but Sanji never thought about kicking the spider under black maria and not black maria herself??? And if he doesn't wanna and can't fight black maria then he should've just run. Dude can fly can't he? Use black stealth to turn invisible and run?

One last thing i'll add too is that the fact that you don't even include a straight 'NO' answer in your poll just shows you're not even honest about asking for others' opinions to create meaningful discussion. You're just stroking your own ego to make yourself feel better. Farming W points is what this thread was created for. And with like only just 8 people including me that replied to this thread, it just shows i'm not the only who knows this is a bait thread.
Yes. I'm gonna write some cheap ass "W farming" thread by wanking Sanji.
Big brain move.
I could do that wanking Zoro, who has a way bigger fanbase here, but no. I went for the next level play.
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd 🌌 🌍 🧬 ⚛️
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#18
I'm wondering what's the inner sense of that image, goats don't absolutely kick like that and if there's an appropriate parallelism by merely taking a master kicker into consideration like I'm seeing, that should be a kangaroo.
 
#19
I agree. The moment with Black Maria was simply to show that Sanji learned from his ordeal with Kalifa and that he listened to Nami and threw away that part of his chivalry. After this point, Oda no longer has any reason to spend time on a Sanji can't kick a woman plotline (not really anyways). Next time it happens, Sanji should just bail immediately. He should've done that this time but it's understandable that Oda wanted Sanji to be in a vulnerable position to highlight the significance of him giving the task to Robin. What Sanji told Usopp sums it up pretty well.

Oda's not portraying Sanji as wrong for his beliefs, he paints them as simply a flaw that Sanji can't change so just like he told Usopp that it's okay and everyone has something they're capable of and incapable of, Sanji's can't hurt a woman. Him giving the task to Robin shows he learned from the experience with Kalifa and he has faith in his female crew-mates. Obviously, Sanji leaving Nami to go and save Momo then leaving her to face Ulti with Usopp showed that he grew but with the Robin situation it really accentuates that he's changed. I didn't like the whole thing but I thought the last chapter of that plotline was nice. I don't see Sanji kicking a woman ever. That doesn't seem like what Oda's building up to, Sanji's simply a dude with beliefs he can't go against, at the very least he's learned to get around the issue by relying on his female crew-mates.
 
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