The baiting Room
- Thread starter Bogard
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Phew so many things to touch on in your post! :) I put it into a spoiler tag, because I wrote a wall of text in response. lol.
First of all, yes, I thought you hit a lot of true, but still painful points that many fans of One PIece but also shonen in general probably wouldn't like to admit.
About Amazon: I can acess and watch it, but haven't so far. I hope it will be available in your area soon too! *praise to the amazon server gods for you*
About Homelander: I think he is amazingly written and also amazingly played by Starr ofc. I really enjoy analyzing him as a character also in contrast to "his team" (and how they handle him or not) and also his "relationship" with Butcher (who isn't a saint himself). Overall the series really hits the nail on the head with many phenomena that are painfully present in our society today. It's really a look into the mirror of our times. Similiar to how Black Mirror gives a terrifying glimpse at how our technology already shapes us and potentially could slapp us even more in the face in the next years. I could write a book about it probably but I stop myself here. That's a topic for another day. ;)
About Oda: I can't speak for how the communication goes behind the scenes and how he communicates with his editors exactly, but I noticed there are comments by Oda being unhappy about the story as well as editors creating scandals on streams and stuff ... I also know about Odas rule for his editors to not interfere with his ideas. His editors are only allowed to give the feedback of "this works or come up with something else.". Based on all these clues I guess not everything is all happy and perfect behind the scenes. But you can even see from our level as readers that Oda has a special place in Shueishas "heart" so to speak and that they give him a lot of freedom, because his manga earns so much money for them, while other mangas have been axed long before doing similiar things. Drizzt also spoke about the topic in his videos how there must be heavy issues somewhere in the communication between Oda, his editors and Shueisha in general, that lead to drastic decline of quality post ts. So yeah someone needs to put boundaries in place to give the story some structure again. Maybe Oda noticed the problem himself, hence the break to restructure the story. Beside all that I agree that it can't be healthy to read so much over the top praise, have people tiptoe around you and to have a high position in the company hierarchy that young mangaka barely dare to speak to you a company parties. (I know Sorachi, the author of Gintama, would intentionally avoid Oda in the beginning of those parties because he had so much respect for Oda who was such a big figure in the company). All that hype around a person and the praise and the top position in everything... is something you get used to as a new benchmark in your life. It is certainly can't be healthy and given how Oda now throws tantrums by cutting the arc short and twisting plots to mindfuck outcomes... could be a sign he really lost touch with the ground as in the Icarus effect you used as an absolutely fitting metaphor here. Also the whole cash grab products around the story really have become way too much. Sometimes I imagine the high executive meetings around these products to be like the parties in wolf of wallstreet. lol.
I also see the unhealthy obsession of the fandom to praise everything he does as really problematic in recent years. Whenever people say to the critics of recent chapters: "I can't see how you can't like this." it makes me think of people whistling a catchy song without ever looking into the lyrics and really be reflective about the words they sing along there ("Pumped up kids" being one of these songs for example.). I mean you can sing all kinds of bands and songs as much as you like. For me it's really just about being aware of the message in there, which many people aren't unfortunately. The catchy beat is enough of them. My faint hope is that people may pay attention to that in the future again - as trends sometimes reverse. Similiar to how people went from fast food to hitting the gym and eating healthy nowadays. Also the Boys as a series, once again, really does a great job at portraying that issue of superficial praise in our society, too: The super heroes are so carefully managed and marketed so people just get hyped for the superhero and buy as much merch as possible, too - with no need to look at the real person or how much damage the heroes create and how much selfishness they actually show even in front of the camera. I started more and more to think about these things whenever I get hyped for a big franchise. It helps me not to get dragged to much into the hype and stay more level headed more often about what I like.
About shonen: The aspect of as you said perfectly, made me really thing about the issues of modern shonen and also my own writing as well. I mentioned in another thread that I would write a shonen a lot more different as a consequent of these considerations and I would also use a character like luffy as kind of rival and also as a bad example in the story. How? First to create a propehcy child like him as a rival to add a lot of stakes and tension for the mc to grow, but also as an example that ultimately those characters really are more a cartoon than actual rolemodels and that chosen ones on those paths, who live on the edge of lady lucks swords, will ultimately fail in a normal setting - hence why they are pretty bad rolemodels actually. Luffy being more selfish than any guy in the world by now, Goku barely caring about his family, ... Those people would be slandered left and right in real life, yet Luffy gets lterally hyped up to be god level now and goku even bombs the limits of gods these days without backlash. It really bugs me to be honest, how super heroes are so overhyped and almost threated like real gods of our society nowadays.(Someone even literally said I can't critizice luffy because he is one of the top 3 most succesful shonen heroes the other day). It's like peoples whole selfworth is hung up on these characters when they defend them to this level. I think people need a reality check for good with these things and I kinda miss the grounded approach in hero stories nowadays, too. Therefore: if I would write a shonen story I would have a more grounded MC instead and give him mentors who are not the top of the world or parents who are not worldwide known and no legendary objects either to give them more relatebly qualities, so I dont need to invent unncessary drama like Oda does with his 1000 sub plot piece. (Besides characters like luffy really border on the level of being a mary sue for me, which is something every amateur writer gets shamed for with no mercy. And also many people already said about luffy that there is no tension around him achieving his wins and goals anymore which again is a really bad sign for a character -especially a main character!) At last I guess that trend of overhyped shonen heroes and super heroes in general is also the reason why I like Gintama so much. It very much has this grounded approach, I long for in stories nowaydays. Even Sorachi said "It's kind to losers" and that makes it so much more human and touching for the most part. And also Sorachi seemed to have not lost touch with the ground, because he always was discouraged by many people around him and barely made it into manga scene, barely stay in shonen jump, barely made it into proper sales, etc yet he kept going and even managed to finish the story in a satisfying way - unlike many popular authors. I think this deserves more praise than a genuis who doesnt want people getting in the way of his genius ideas and story. All this groundedness... It shows in Sorachis work and I like that more than what most hyped up mangaka do nowadays or the lack of what they fail to deliver despite their own image.
About Amazon: I can acess and watch it, but haven't so far. I hope it will be available in your area soon too! *praise to the amazon server gods for you*
About Homelander: I think he is amazingly written and also amazingly played by Starr ofc. I really enjoy analyzing him as a character also in contrast to "his team" (and how they handle him or not) and also his "relationship" with Butcher (who isn't a saint himself). Overall the series really hits the nail on the head with many phenomena that are painfully present in our society today. It's really a look into the mirror of our times. Similiar to how Black Mirror gives a terrifying glimpse at how our technology already shapes us and potentially could slapp us even more in the face in the next years. I could write a book about it probably but I stop myself here. That's a topic for another day. ;)
About Oda: I can't speak for how the communication goes behind the scenes and how he communicates with his editors exactly, but I noticed there are comments by Oda being unhappy about the story as well as editors creating scandals on streams and stuff ... I also know about Odas rule for his editors to not interfere with his ideas. His editors are only allowed to give the feedback of "this works or come up with something else.". Based on all these clues I guess not everything is all happy and perfect behind the scenes. But you can even see from our level as readers that Oda has a special place in Shueishas "heart" so to speak and that they give him a lot of freedom, because his manga earns so much money for them, while other mangas have been axed long before doing similiar things. Drizzt also spoke about the topic in his videos how there must be heavy issues somewhere in the communication between Oda, his editors and Shueisha in general, that lead to drastic decline of quality post ts. So yeah someone needs to put boundaries in place to give the story some structure again. Maybe Oda noticed the problem himself, hence the break to restructure the story. Beside all that I agree that it can't be healthy to read so much over the top praise, have people tiptoe around you and to have a high position in the company hierarchy that young mangaka barely dare to speak to you a company parties. (I know Sorachi, the author of Gintama, would intentionally avoid Oda in the beginning of those parties because he had so much respect for Oda who was such a big figure in the company). All that hype around a person and the praise and the top position in everything... is something you get used to as a new benchmark in your life. It is certainly can't be healthy and given how Oda now throws tantrums by cutting the arc short and twisting plots to mindfuck outcomes... could be a sign he really lost touch with the ground as in the Icarus effect you used as an absolutely fitting metaphor here. Also the whole cash grab products around the story really have become way too much. Sometimes I imagine the high executive meetings around these products to be like the parties in wolf of wallstreet. lol.
I also see the unhealthy obsession of the fandom to praise everything he does as really problematic in recent years. Whenever people say to the critics of recent chapters: "I can't see how you can't like this." it makes me think of people whistling a catchy song without ever looking into the lyrics and really be reflective about the words they sing along there ("Pumped up kids" being one of these songs for example.). I mean you can sing all kinds of bands and songs as much as you like. For me it's really just about being aware of the message in there, which many people aren't unfortunately. The catchy beat is enough of them. My faint hope is that people may pay attention to that in the future again - as trends sometimes reverse. Similiar to how people went from fast food to hitting the gym and eating healthy nowadays. Also the Boys as a series, once again, really does a great job at portraying that issue of superficial praise in our society, too: The super heroes are so carefully managed and marketed so people just get hyped for the superhero and buy as much merch as possible, too - with no need to look at the real person or how much damage the heroes create and how much selfishness they actually show even in front of the camera. I started more and more to think about these things whenever I get hyped for a big franchise. It helps me not to get dragged to much into the hype and stay more level headed more often about what I like.
About shonen: The aspect of as you said perfectly, made me really thing about the issues of modern shonen and also my own writing as well. I mentioned in another thread that I would write a shonen a lot more different as a consequent of these considerations and I would also use a character like luffy as kind of rival and also as a bad example in the story. How? First to create a propehcy child like him as a rival to add a lot of stakes and tension for the mc to grow, but also as an example that ultimately those characters really are more a cartoon than actual rolemodels and that chosen ones on those paths, who live on the edge of lady lucks swords, will ultimately fail in a normal setting - hence why they are pretty bad rolemodels actually. Luffy being more selfish than any guy in the world by now, Goku barely caring about his family, ... Those people would be slandered left and right in real life, yet Luffy gets lterally hyped up to be god level now and goku even bombs the limits of gods these days without backlash. It really bugs me to be honest, how super heroes are so overhyped and almost threated like real gods of our society nowadays.(Someone even literally said I can't critizice luffy because he is one of the top 3 most succesful shonen heroes the other day). It's like peoples whole selfworth is hung up on these characters when they defend them to this level. I think people need a reality check for good with these things and I kinda miss the grounded approach in hero stories nowadays, too. Therefore: if I would write a shonen story I would have a more grounded MC instead and give him mentors who are not the top of the world or parents who are not worldwide known and no legendary objects either to give them more relatebly qualities, so I dont need to invent unncessary drama like Oda does with his 1000 sub plot piece. (Besides characters like luffy really border on the level of being a mary sue for me, which is something every amateur writer gets shamed for with no mercy. And also many people already said about luffy that there is no tension around him achieving his wins and goals anymore which again is a really bad sign for a character -especially a main character!) At last I guess that trend of overhyped shonen heroes and super heroes in general is also the reason why I like Gintama so much. It very much has this grounded approach, I long for in stories nowaydays. Even Sorachi said "It's kind to losers" and that makes it so much more human and touching for the most part. And also Sorachi seemed to have not lost touch with the ground, because he always was discouraged by many people around him and barely made it into manga scene, barely stay in shonen jump, barely made it into proper sales, etc yet he kept going and even managed to finish the story in a satisfying way - unlike many popular authors. I think this deserves more praise than a genuis who doesnt want people getting in the way of his genius ideas and story. All this groundedness... It shows in Sorachis work and I like that more than what most hyped up mangaka do nowadays or the lack of what they fail to deliver despite their own image.
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Imagine we won't get the bounties next week 
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