General & Others The biggest plot twist of wano: there is no traitor

#1
So in regards to who is the traitor, Oda has basically made it to where no character could logically be the traitor. Let me explain.

From Kaido's statement, the traitor had to be a person from Oden's circle 20 years ago. In addition, this person must have known about the raizo being on Zhou as well as Hiyori being in the northern graveyard, and the changing of the ports.

Out of all the people fans speculate to be the traitor, none of them make sense.
  • it cannot be a scabbard or Shinobu.
The scabbards all fought against Kaido with Oden. If one of the scabbards was a traitor, then would they not have revealed themselves as a traitor during the fight against kaido? Would that not have been perfect time to stab Oden in the back? By this logic I don't think Shinobu is the traitor either. She fought with oden against Kaido and was captured by the beast pirates before Oden let her go. Not to mention the fact that Shinobu was never part of Oden's inner circle. What's more is that all the scabbards were inprisoned. How could Kiku or Denjiro or Kanjuro even be the traitor if they were inprisoned? Why would they feign their loyalty to Oden even after Oden was defeated?

Who else was around and part of Oden's circle 20 years ago that could be the traitor?
it cannot be Hyogoro or Yasuei for obvious reasons

this leaves only one person who could be the 'traitor'. Toki.

"But how? why? Toki died and even if she didn't she would never betray Oden. "

That's the thing, she didn't betray Oden. What Oda has been setting up with this "traitor" subplot was in fact, that there was never a traitor to begin with. Allow me to explain.

If Toki had the time time fruit, it is very likely that she could be able to see deep into the future. After all, DFs rarely have only one ability. I believe that Toki had this ability and was able to see into the future in order to determine how to beat Kaido. This is hinted by the fact that Toki specifically sent the scabbards 20 years into the future, something that Asura even pondered. I think the only reason why she would prolong the suffering of the people of wano would be if she knew that there was no other way. And that, in a similar fashion to the Avengers movies, there was only was possible future in which Kaido was defeated and Wano. However in order for this future to exist, a traitor needs to exist.

Kaido can only be defeated if a very specific set of events play out and the only way to ensure this is for Toki to have 'betrayed' Oden, telling Kaido about the attack, and then again for Hiyori to have picked up her mother's position and become the traitor in our current time.

I believe that this was the reason why Toki allowed herself to die in the fire when she could have easily used her DF to escape to the future. In order to ensure Kaido's defeat, she essentially had to ensure that Oden would die. While she knew it was necessary, she ultimately wasn't able to live with her self after doing what she did.

This makes sense as literally the only people who knew about Hiyori being in Ringo were Zoro, Toko, Kawamatsu, the fox, and I think maybe a few of the SHs. None of which could convincingly be the traitor.

As for how she knew about Raizou being on Zou? I think that this was one of the events that Toki saw when she looked into the future. I think that before she died, Toki basically made a blueprint of everything Hiyori would have to do in order for Kaido to be defeated. That or Hiyori ate the toki toki no mi but I doubt that as I highly doubt Oda would reintroduce that DF into the series given how OP it is.


anyways I don't know if this theory makes much sense but at this point, I think any traitor theory can make sense as I think whatever plot twist the traitor's subplot will entail, it will be something nobody has thought of as of yet.
 

Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower
#2
So in regards to who is the traitor, Oda has basically made it to where no character could logically be the traitor. Let me explain.

From Kaido's statement, the traitor had to be a person from Oden's circle 20 years ago. In addition, this person must have known about the raizo being on Zhou as well as Hiyori being in the northern graveyard, and the changing of the ports.

Out of all the people fans speculate to be the traitor, none of them make sense.
  • it cannot be a scabbard or Shinobu.
The scabbards all fought against Kaido with Oden. If one of the scabbards was a traitor, then would they not have revealed themselves as a traitor during the fight against kaido? Would that not have been perfect time to stab Oden in the back? By this logic I don't think Shinobu is the traitor either. She fought with oden against Kaido and was captured by the beast pirates before Oden let her go. Not to mention the fact that Shinobu was never part of Oden's inner circle. What's more is that all the scabbards were inprisoned. How could Kiku or Denjiro or Kanjuro even be the traitor if they were inprisoned? Why would they feign their loyalty to Oden even after Oden was defeated?

Who else was around and part of Oden's circle 20 years ago that could be the traitor?
it cannot be Hyogoro or Yasuei for obvious reasons

this leaves only one person who could be the 'traitor'. Toki.

"But how? why? Toki died and even if she didn't she would never betray Oden. "

That's the thing, she didn't betray Oden. What Oda has been setting up with this "traitor" subplot was in fact, that there was never a traitor to begin with. Allow me to explain.

If Toki had the time time fruit, it is very likely that she could be able to see deep into the future. After all, DFs rarely have only one ability. I believe that Toki had this ability and was able to see into the future in order to determine how to beat Kaido. This is hinted by the fact that Toki specifically sent the scabbards 20 years into the future, something that Asura even pondered. I think the only reason why she would prolong the suffering of the people of wano would be if she knew that there was no other way. And that, in a similar fashion to the Avengers movies, there was only was possible future in which Kaido was defeated and Wano. However in order for this future to exist, a traitor needs to exist.

Kaido can only be defeated if a very specific set of events play out and the only way to ensure this is for Toki to have 'betrayed' Oden, telling Kaido about the attack, and then again for Hiyori to have picked up her mother's position and become the traitor in our current time.

I believe that this was the reason why Toki allowed herself to die in the fire when she could have easily used her DF to escape to the future. In order to ensure Kaido's defeat, she essentially had to ensure that Oden would die. While she knew it was necessary, she ultimately wasn't able to live with her self after doing what she did.

This makes sense as literally the only people who knew about Hiyori being in Ringo were Zoro, Toko, Kawamatsu, the fox, and I think maybe a few of the SHs. None of which could convincingly be the traitor.

As for how she knew about Raizou being on Zou? I think that this was one of the events that Toki saw when she looked into the future. I think that before she died, Toki basically made a blueprint of everything Hiyori would have to do in order for Kaido to be defeated. That or Hiyori ate the toki toki no mi but I doubt that as I highly doubt Oda would reintroduce that DF into the series given how OP it is.


anyways I don't know if this theory makes much sense but at this point, I think any traitor theory can make sense as I think whatever plot twist the traitor's subplot will entail, it will be something nobody has thought of as of yet.
I really like this a lot! My only point of contention is that Hiyori theoretically could have eaten Toki’s fruit, being that she was the one who remained behind after her mother sent everyone else into the future. Maybe her usage of it in the storyline will skew more towards the clairvoyant properties rather than jumping forward in time like Toki did.
 

Garp the Fist

Bwahahahaha
#5
The scabbards all fought against Kaido with Oden. If one of the scabbards was a traitor, then would they not have revealed themselves as a traitor during the fight against kaido? Would that not have been perfect time to stab Oden in the back?
Someone did stab Ashura in the back, and unless Oda's made a mistake in shading, it wasn't King, despite how it was framed
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#7
That sounds way too elaborate and contrived. Also, the spy informed Kaido and Orochi Oden was planning an attack on them. If Toki did plan all this out, she could've not said anything and picked a scenario that didn't necessitate the death of her husband and separation of her family and its vassals. Also avoided 20 years of suffering.
 
#8
That sounds way too elaborate and contrived. Also, the spy informed Kaido and Orochi Oden was planning an attack on them. If Toki did plan all this out, she could've not said anything and picked a scenario that didn't necessitate the death of her husband and separation of her family and its vassals. Also avoided 20 years of suffering.
What I’m theorizing was that there is no such scenario

there’s only one future in which they win and it’s a future where oden dies and luffy beats kaido.

essentially like in avengers
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Someone did stab Ashura in the back, and unless Oda's made a mistake in shading, it wasn't King, despite how it was framed
I’m pretty sure it was king
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The problem with this is that Kaido COULD have been killed by Oden. The plan could have easily worked out if Kaido didn't know.
Well that’s what we assume but we don’t know how true that is.

so far, it seems like kaido didn’t even use hybrid form much less DF awakening.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#10
What I’m theorizing was that there is no such scenario

there’s only one future in which they win and it’s a future where oden dies and luffy beats kaido.

essentially like in avengers
This isn't Avengers. Toki spoke of the prophecy of bringing the 'dawn.' Kaido's but a speck in the grand scheme of things. Kaido's defeat doesn't suddenly bring it. He's just a cog in the machine. If the prophecy mentioned how someone would bring the dawn (ie., change the world), then it's most likely predicated on that individual existing, not a string of very specific series of events unfolding in order for Kaido to lose. We know that in order for the dawn to happen, Poseidon's successor needs to be born. Let's say Oden beats Kaido, drives Orochi off, and opens Wano's borders, they'd still have to wait for Shirahoshi to reach maturity to do anything. Luffy would still come to be, eventually meet Shirahoshi, and proceed to do what Roger and co couldn't because they were too early.

I also doubt Oda goes that deep into time travel. He already has Toki's powers only allowing her to move forward in time. Mentioning multiple timeplines begins to ask questions he likely doesn't want being raised.
 
#12
Well that’s what we assume but we don’t know how true that is.

so far, it seems like kaido didn’t even use hybrid form much less DF awakening.
Come on with his hybrid form nonsense. Oda just wants to save up the reveal for the end. Nothing to do with power scaling. He did same with Jack and Inu/Neko. He was even showing King/Queen in silhouettes even though we've seen them.

As for awakening, Zooan awakening is not Paramecia Awakening. You don't see it.
 
H

Homelander

#13
People keep saying traitor is not there then how did kaido find out and mobilise his army if someone did not notify him ?
 
#14
What ? We already know traitor sold out info on hiyori and scabbards location.

The traitor is still around. They also sold out on minks and raizo too.
People keep saying traitor is not there then how did kaido find out and mobilise his army if someone did not notify him ?
read the original post
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This isn't Avengers. Toki spoke of the prophecy of bringing the 'dawn.' Kaido's but a speck in the grand scheme of things. Kaido's defeat doesn't suddenly bring it. He's just a cog in the machine. If the prophecy mentioned how someone would bring the dawn (ie., change the world), then it's most likely predicated on that individual existing, not a string of very specific series of events unfolding in order for Kaido to lose. We know that in order for the dawn to happen, Poseidon's successor needs to be born. Let's say Oden beats Kaido, drives Orochi off, and opens Wano's borders, they'd still have to wait for Shirahoshi to reach maturity to do anything. Luffy would still come to be, eventually meet Shirahoshi, and proceed to do what Roger and co couldn't because they were too early.

I also doubt Oda goes that deep into time travel. He already has Toki's powers only allowing her to move forward in time. Mentioning multiple timeplines begins to ask questions he likely doesn't want being raised.
I just think that there is a very limited amount of people who could logically be the traitor

like I said
  • the scabbards and Shinobu all rushed into battle with Oden and were subsequently captured. They literally cannot be the traitor or else they would have betrayed Oden on that battlefield
  • The only other person who would have known about Oden's plan was maybe Yasu or Toki. And we know Yasu can't be the traitor because Orochi received info from the traitor after Yasu died.
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honestly, if it isn't Toki, then the only other explanation I can see being possible is @MD Zolo 's theory that there are 2 versions of the mane mane no mi and that Higurashi went to the future disguised as Kiku
 
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H

Homelander

#15
Doesnt make sense toki is traitor.

Thats the thing its pudding all over now ?

We know oden left wano for 5 years . Anything could have happened that time. Scabbard betraying is a twist that is waiting for us. I agree they seem loyal to oden i think untill full detail comes out we will never know the traitors motives.

But the traitor is hinted since zou. It will look silly if turns out there was no traitor then oda has to explain who told jack about raizo ? Who is snitching and giving infos to orochi ?

You think toki was around those times ?

I read your theory with Avenger plot buthow does toki or hiyori knows about Jack ? He was like 8 year old kid back then.
 
#16
Doesnt make sense toki is traitor.

Thats the thing its pudding all over now ?

We know oden left wano for 5 years . Anything could have happened that time. Scabbard betraying is a twist that is waiting for us. I agree they seem loyal to oden i think untill full detail comes out we will never know the traitors motives.

But the traitor is hinted since zou. It will look silly if turns out there was no traitor then oda has to explain who told jack about raizo ? Who is snitching and giving infos to orochi ?

You think toki was around those times ?
no

I think that Toki used her DF to look into the future to see all the possible scenarios where the scabbards could beat Kaido and the only possible scenario where the scabbards survive and Kaido is defeated is a future which requires the existence of a traitor.

Its nothing like pudding.

I think that before Toki died, she gave some sort of blueprint to Hiyori about what she would have to do to ensure the scabbard's victory. That or Hiyori ate the toki toki no mi. In any case, the "traitor" of the past was Toki, the "traitor" of right now is Hiyori.

but there really is no traitor because Hiyori and Toki aren't working to help Kaido, they are trying to create the single perfect future where Luffy defeats Kaido
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I read your theory with Avenger plot buthow does toki or hiyori knows about Jack ? He was like 8 year old kid back then.
I think the toki toki no mi gives some degree of clairvoyance

Like Toki could see a person's possible futures if she touched them or something. By touching all the scabbards, she could see all the possible scenarios where they fight kaido.
 
H

Homelander

#17
no

I think that Toki used her DF to look into the future to see all the possible scenarios where the scabbards could beat Kaido and the only possible scenario where the scabbards survive and Kaido is defeated is a future which requires the existence of a traitor.

Its nothing like pudding.

I think that before Toki died, she gave some sort of blueprint to Hiyori about what she would have to do to ensure the scabbard's victory. That or Hiyori ate the toki toki no mi. In any case, the "traitor" of the past was Toki, the "traitor" of right now is Hiyori.

but there really is no traitor because Hiyori and Toki aren't working to help Kaido, they are trying to create the single perfect future where Luffy defeats Kaido
Looks to hollywood to me. I am sure toki can only leap 20 years ahead dunno if she can see whats ahead . You are parelleing her to dr.strange's power however i am not sure on this ?
 
#18
We know oden left wano for 5 years . Anything could have happened that time. Scabbard betraying is a twist that is waiting for us. I agree they seem loyal to oden i think untill full detail comes out we will never know the traitors motives.
How can it be a scabbard if they all fought alongside Oden and were imprisoned and set to be executed alongside Oden?

if one of them was the traitor, they would have no reason not to reveal it, especially now that Oden is defeated
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Looks to hollywood to me. I am sure toki can only leap 20 years ahead dunno if she can see whats ahead . You are parelleing her dr.strange's power however i am not sure on this ?
Do you think that it is impossible for a person with a time DF to have the ability to see the future?

I'm basing this mainly off the fact that none of the scabbards seem like plausible traitors and hence the traitor subplot is far more complex than we can imagine.
 
M

MD Zolo

#19
Toki's smile in this chapter sure was out of character for her. Made her as ominous as when she first appeared. So, her being the traitor because she wants to create the only future where Kaido falls may not be a ridiculous theory.

However, it will portray Toki (and Hiyori) as sort of villainous people. I mean Toki will have assisted in the boiling of her husband, suffering of her subjects, death of thousands of samurai only for the one perfect future where Kaido falls.

That will irreparably damage Toki's (and Hiyori's) protagonist nature.

Specially during the climax of Wano, when all hope is lost and Kaido is winning (as it always happens in Shounen).
 
#20
Toki's smile in this chapter sure was out of character for her. Made her as ominous as when she first appeared. So, her being the traitor because she wants to create the only future where Kaido falls may not be a ridiculous theory.

However, it will portray Toki (and Hiyori) as sort of villainous people. I mean Toki will have assisted in the boiling of her husband, suffering of her subjects, death of thousands of samurai only for the one perfect future where Kaido falls.

That will irreparably damage Toki's (and Hiyori's) protagonist nature.

Specially during the climax of Wano, when all hope is lost and Kaido is winning (as it always happens in Shounen).
I just cannot see how any character we know of can plausibly be the traitor
 
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