Controversial The epithome of agenda driven debate

style

style

‎
#1
#1
Context: chapter 1010 -> Zoro leaves a scar on Kaido's body

Anti Zoro Gang: he didn't use Conqueror Haki, indeed it isn't even confirmed he has Conqueror Haki

Pro Zoro Gang: Zoro used Conqueror Haki, Kaido confirmed so

-> in this moment Zoro having Conqueror Haki or not defines his ceiling in terms of power. If he has CoC he can be placed at a higher level, otherwise not. This is the agenda that drives the 2 factions.

---

Then chapter 1033-1035 happened and the two agendas swtiched

Anti Zoro Gang: Zoro used CoC to scar Kaido

Pro Zoro Gang: No, Zoro scarred Kaido without using CoC, only CoA

---

Why this switch of agenda happened? Because the ceiling of Zoro changed once we learnt about KoH mode.
If Zoro used CoC already in chapter 1010 that means his ceiling can be lowered and that's why Anti Zoro Gang now promotes the idea of Zoro having CoC already in chapter 1010.
The same applies for Pro Zoro Gang...if Zoro was able to scar Kaido already without even using CoC then he can do even better now that he has KoH, thus his ceiling can be placed at an higher place.
 
Salah WG

Salah WG

‎
#3
#3
95% of OP Fandom already decided what They are gonna say or argue against or support
What Oda draws or says doesn't matter, They will simply interpret it in a way that suits them
And when everything fails, just say "It got Retconned" instead of admitting you were wrong

Regarding Zoro, i personally only care about one thing from his Fights
His Goal is to become "Greatest Swordsman" & each Fight reveals to us what it means to be a Swordsman (Stats/Feats included in it)
And Mihawk represents the Character who already Mastered those Lessons, and i think these are only things that Oda want you to care about

But there are Pro Zoro Fans & Anti-Zoro Group who will Hype/De-Hype anything that is put in the same Sentence with Zoro
Just look at King or Shiryu, you either find those who Hype them to Unrealistic Levels & those who Shit on them just for existing

Or look at Current Lucci, We are supposed to enjoy the return of such cool Villain & hope to see others like Enel or Doffy, but instead People treat him like Trash just because He is included in Zoro vs Luffy Debate, this makes me realize that if Enel or Doffy or Crocodile are shown fighting again, People will continue to ruin such Moments
 
Herrera95

Herrera95

‎
#4
#4
style said:
Context: chapter 1010 -> Zoro leaves a scar on Kaido's body

Anti Zoro Gang: he didn't use Conqueror Haki, indeed it isn't even confirmed he has Conqueror Haki

Pro Zoro Gang: Zoro used Conqueror Haki, Kaido confirmed so

-> in this moment Zoro having Conqueror Haki or not defines his ceiling in terms of power. If he has CoC he can be placed at a higher level, otherwise not. This is the agenda that drives the 2 factions.

---

Then chapter 1033-1035 happened and the two agendas swtiched

Anti Zoro Gang: Zoro used CoC to scar Kaido

Pro Zoro Gang: No, Zoro scarred Kaido without using CoC, only CoA

---

Why this switch of agenda happened? Because the ceiling of Zoro changed once we learnt about KoH mode.
If Zoro used CoC already in chapter 1010 that means his ceiling can be lowered and that's why Anti Zoro Gang now promotes the idea of Zoro having CoC already in chapter 1010.
The same applies for Pro Zoro Gang...if Zoro was able to scar Kaido already without even using CoC then he can do even better now that he has KoH, thus his ceiling can be placed at an higher place.
Click to expand...
This is so fucking true.

I only realized Zoro used CoC coating against Kaido when Oda said Oden used it to scar Kaido too. So Kaido can't only be scarred by using CoC coating attacks. And I didn't changed my mind on that since then.

There is still argue that KoH mode could be even stronger than that Asura. So a combination of KoH and Asura (2 modes combined) could have made a bigger scar on Kaido perhaps even slicing him in half like Sukuna did to Gojo.

But it is always like this. Everything to downplay your favorite hated character while also everything to hype your fav. I try to avoid that and keep into my beliefs. I never downplay Sanji (of course Sanjitards will deny because they try to make Sanji to be something he is not) or Luffy. Although I hate Luffy I'm the one who defends he was stronger than Doffy and Kaido when he defeated them.

To be honest the ones who thinks your fav are doing good most of the times should be seen and called haters. For example saying Sanji did good at WCI you have to be a hater of him. I like Sanji and wanted him to do much more. He did good at Wano but I didn't liked how he did. I hate his Germa genes and wished he should have done all that with Raid Suit and haki trainning. I wanted Zoro to do more and specially different. Always hated Enma since day 1 and always though he should have kept Shusui even if he left it behind when leaving Wano (which he shouldn't since he earned that sword). The magic pill plot was ridiculous.
 
grey matter

grey matter

‎
#5
#5
Salah WG said:
95% of OP Fandom already decided what They are gonna say or argue against or support
What Oda draws or says doesn't matter, They will simply interpret it in a way that suits them
And when everything fails, just say "It got Retconned" instead of admitting you were wrong

Regarding Zoro, i personally only care about one thing from his Fights
His Goal is to become "Greatest Swordsman" & each Fight reveals to us what it means to be a Swordsman (Stats/Feats included in it)
And Mihawk represents the Character who already Mastered those Lessons, and i think these are only things that Oda want you to care about

But there are Pro Zoro Fans & Anti-Zoro Group who will Hype/De-Hype anything that is put in the same Sentence with Zoro
Just look at King or Shiryu, you either find those who Hype them to Unrealistic Levels & those who Shit on them just for existing

Or look at Current Lucci, We are supposed to enjoy the return of such cool Villain & hope to see others like Enel or Doffy, but instead People treat him like Trash just because He is included in Zoro vs Luffy Debate, this makes me realize that if Enel or Doffy or Crocodile are shown fighting again, People will continue to ruin such Moments
Click to expand...
Overall agree, however "Oda retconned" is very valid in some cases.
Crocodile being the most classic example. Crocodile isn't really involved in any major agenda debates, yet people generally agree he was retconned.

I was mad hyped about Lucci. Dude is amongst my fav characters in the series, top 3 fav.
However, the reason he's treated like trash is because Luffy utterly humiliated him. Oda thrashed Lucci by feeding him to Luffy, not the fans. From that point onwards, most people who were looking forward to see in him action, we couldn't be bothered anymore. Yeah, you could argue stuff like "Luffy used his strongest mode", "Lucci was fine a couple of mins later", "Luffy turned into old man" etc. Doesn't change the fact that, after the initial haki clash, Lucci was clearly destroyed in combat, straight up low diff'd.
It's for the same reason that Kizaru stocks also fell, though not as badly as Lucci stocks.

I dearly hope that if/when Enel or Doflamingo appears, they won't be fed to Luffy to further wank the chosen one garbage.
 
HA001

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
‎
#8
#8
grey matter said:
Overall agree, however "Oda retconned" is very valid in some cases.
Crocodile being the most classic example. Crocodile isn't really involved in any major agenda debates, yet people generally agree he was retconned.

I was mad hyped about Lucci. Dude is amongst my fav characters in the series, top 3 fav.
However, the reason he's treated like trash is because Luffy utterly humiliated him. Oda thrashed Lucci by feeding him to Luffy, not the fans. From that point onwards, most people who were looking forward to see in him action, we couldn't be bothered anymore. Yeah, you could argue stuff like "Luffy used his strongest mode", "Lucci was fine a couple of mins later", "Luffy turned into old man" etc. Doesn't change the fact that, after the initial haki clash, Lucci was clearly destroyed in combat, straight up low diff'd.
It's for the same reason that Kizaru stocks also fell, though not as badly as Lucci stocks.

I dearly hope that if/when Enel or Doflamingo appears, they won't be fed to Luffy to further wank the chosen one garbage.
Click to expand...
I don't see it as retcon for Croc.

Will drives this story

A few of the warlords had their will crushed and settled. Which makes them weaker

And even being weaker Croc dominated luffy all alabasta easily beat him like 3 times before shenanigans

Him getting his fire back is enough reason for me.

The only retcon off the top of my head is King's power
 
suzaku

suzaku

‎
#10
#10
Herrera95 said:
This is so fucking true.

I only realized Zoro used CoC coating against Kaido when Oda said Oden used it to scar Kaido too. So Kaido can't only be scarred by using CoC coating attacks. And I didn't changed my mind on that since then.

There is still argue that KoH mode could be even stronger than that Asura. So a combination of KoH and Asura (2 modes combined) could have made a bigger scar on Kaido perhaps even slicing him in half like Sukuna did to Gojo.

But it is always like this. Everything to downplay your favorite hated character while also everything to hype your fav. I try to avoid that and keep into my beliefs. I never downplay Sanji (of course Sanjitards will deny because they try to make Sanji to be something he is not) or Luffy. Although I hate Luffy I'm the one who defends he was stronger than Doffy and Kaido when he defeated them.

To be honest the ones who thinks your fav are doing good most of the times should be seen and called haters. For example saying Sanji did good at WCI you have to be a hater of him. I like Sanji and wanted him to do much more. He did good at Wano but I didn't liked how he did. I hate his Germa genes and wished he should have done all that with Raid Suit and haki trainning. I wanted Zoro to do more and specially different. Always hated Enma since day 1 and always though he should have kept Shusui even if he left it behind when leaving Wano (which he shouldn't since he earned that sword). The magic pill plot was ridiculous.
Click to expand...
You shouldn't be talking. You use the same arguments to argue zoro being stronger than goofy
 
Salah WG

Salah WG

‎
#14
#14
grey matter said:
Overall agree, however "Oda retconned" is very valid in some cases.
Crocodile being the most classic example. Crocodile isn't really involved in any major agenda debates, yet people generally agree he was retconned.

I was mad hyped about Lucci. Dude is amongst my fav characters in the series, top 3 fav.
However, the reason he's treated like trash is because Luffy utterly humiliated him. Oda thrashed Lucci by feeding him to Luffy, not the fans. From that point onwards, most people who were looking forward to see in him action, we couldn't be bothered anymore. Yeah, you could argue stuff like "Luffy used his strongest mode", "Lucci was fine a couple of mins later", "Luffy turned into old man" etc. Doesn't change the fact that, after the initial haki clash, Lucci was clearly destroyed in combat, straight up low diff'd.
It's for the same reason that Kizaru stocks also fell, though not as badly as Lucci stocks.

I dearly hope that if/when Enel or Doflamingo appears, they won't be fed to Luffy to further wank the chosen one garbage.
Click to expand...
Crocodile wasn't Retconned at all
He was Introduced as a Warlord with Power of Sand (A Top Tier DF Powers)

Forget about Characters whose Powers weren't Revealed such as Shanks, Dragon, Mihawk Old Gen Characters ... etc
Just look at Characters who were Fighting

Who did Oda Introduce aside from Crocodile with Equally Powerful DFs or Superior?
If you go read entire Pre-TS Chapters, you will only find that Oda only revealed Ten Characters who are as Strong or Superior than Crocodile
They were ---> Ace - Hancock - Kuma - Jinbe - Three Admirals - Enel - Magellan & Blackbeard

When People say Crocodile was Retconned it's like They are saying there are Characters who showed Superior Powers & then when Crocodile came back, He Surpassed them, but that didn't happen at all

Three Admirals, Magellan, Enel & Blackbeard were Introduced with Superior Powers than Crocodile & They still are
He was never Portrayed Stronger than them, neither in his First Appearance nor in his Comeback nor Post-TS
As for Remaining Four, Oda never Portrayed Crocodile as their Superior nor were They Portrayed as his Superiors
And even Currently, Crocodile didn't Surpass Level of Kuma or Jinbe or Hancock, He is still their Rival

How can People say Crocodile was Retconned if among Characters whom Oda revealed their Power (Signature Attacks/Named Attacks)
He was always Top 10 in Pre-TS, and in Post-TS only Handful Characters were Introduced with Superior Powers than Sand Logia
And his Placement compared to other Characters never Changed

Fans simply Downplay any Old Character because They are Reactionary Readers, They Hype current Moment at cost of Previous Ones.
If you ask them about any Old Character who appears a Second Time, They will say "Retconned"

Crocodile was Top 10 Pre-TS & He is currently Top 20, Nothing Changed
Only reason He wasn't even in People's Top 30 is because They Rank Characters who Oda himself didn't bother to show their Power yet
Just don't be Impatient, no need to Power Scale Characters who even Oda didn't feel you need to see their Power yet

Remove Characters with No Named Attacks from your List, and see how everyone's Ranking becomes Clear as Day
 
suzaku

suzaku

‎
#15
#15
Herrera95 said:
That is not being clear...
Click to expand...
"Or look at Current Lucci, We are supposed to enjoy the return of such cool Villain & hope to see others like Enel or Doffy, but instead People treat him like Trash just because He is included in Zoro vs Luffy Debate, this makes me realize that if Enel or Doffy or Crocodile are shown fighting again, People will continue to ruin such Moments"

You use the fact that goofy turned into an old man after fighting lucci to downplay both lucci and goofy and upscale zoro
 
Herrera95

Herrera95

‎
#16
#16
suzaku said:
"Or look at Current Lucci, We are supposed to enjoy the return of such cool Villain & hope to see others like Enel or Doffy, but instead People treat him like Trash just because He is included in Zoro vs Luffy Debate, this makes me realize that if Enel or Doffy or Crocodile are shown fighting again, People will continue to ruin such Moments"

You use the fact that goofy turned into an old man after fighting lucci to downplay both lucci and goofy and upscale zoro
Click to expand...
Where you saw me saying that?

It makes no fucking reason for me to downplay Lucci since this would directly downplay Zoro too. Not that I think about that when analyzing manga.

Idk exactly when but I have Lucci as a solid YC1 given how he negged Sentomaru and stood his ground against Luffy.
 
C

CensoredbyWG

#17
#17
Lucci is great, he just looked bad against G5 because luffy is a GOD.

I would like to see enel vs g5 lol, peak comedy.
 
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