Powers & Abilities Timeskip training abilities

[Sir Yasheen]

Because his siblings get the abilities boosted by their RS. Again even without using boosters, the RS adds durability. More durability = Sanji being able to hit harder...hence all his attacks get stronger.

Again you are misunderstanding the point. I haven't argued that Zoro hasn't gotten stronger through his training. Him getting stronger through said training is irrelevant to the fact that he hasn't used his ultimate technique.

I’m understanding your point I’m just saying your point is wrong.

The technique doesn’t change. The damage might be different but the actual technique doesn’t change. Sanjis Diable Jambe isn’t related to his vinsmoke bloodline. So the suit isn’t going to work with that.

However, just like with Zoro, the technique won’t change but the damage will because of upgrades.

Any technique is strictly Sanji/Zoro and Sanji could use it without the suit and Zoro can use his with basic swords however, the damage the technique will do will change for both so to RS/Enma.

 

[kurwa]

Because his siblings get the abilities boosted by their RS. Again even without using boosters, the RS adds durability. More durability = Sanji being able to hit harder...hence all his attacks get stronger.

That's not now that works.
RS isn't weighing 1ton for Sanji's attack to get stronger from defense. It weighs the same as normal piece of clothing that functions as armor.
It just means he gets hurt less when attacking.

And the point about RS boosting DJ is literally out of your ass. Nowhere was it said that RS boost their abilities. Sanji's RS has nothing to do with fire.

 

[Geo]

I’m understanding your point I’m just saying your point is wrong.

The technique doesn’t change. The damage might be different but the actual technique doesn’t change. Sanjis Diable Jambe isn’t related to his vinsmoke bloodline. So the suit isn’t going to work with that.

However, just like with Zoro, the technique won’t change but the damage will because of upgrades.

Any technique is strictly Sanji/Zoro and Sanji could use it without the suit and Zoro can use his with basic swords however, the damage the technique will do will change for both so to RS/Enma.

No it's now clear there is a misunderstanding.

"Ultimate technique" as I mentioned on the previous page refers to attack strength/attack power and not "pure technique"

Obviously technique itself doesn't change but attacks will get stronger because of the suit. Hence any new top attack Sanji shows will be tied to his suit.

Comparing it to Zoro is completely wrong because it isn't the sword which makes Zoro strong. It is Zoro's training which makes him strong. Hence new attacks are tied to Zoro himself not to his swords
[automerge]1604668822[/automerge]

That's not now that works.
RS isn't weighing 1ton for Sanji's attack to get stronger from defense. It weighs the same as normal piece of clothing that functions as armor.
It just means he gets hurt less when attacking.

And the point about RS boosting DJ is literally out of your ass. Nowhere was it said that RS boost their abilities. Sanji's RS has nothing to do with fire.

His durability is increased hence he is able to attack harder because the blowback is lower..quite simple.

This is why you should read what is actually stated. Nowhere did I claim or imply that statement as fact...I stated it as a possibility... something likely but not proved

 

[Sir Yasheen]

No it's now clear there is a misunderstanding.

"Ultimate technique" as I mentioned on the previous page refers to attack strength/attack power and not "pure technique"

Obviously technique itself doesn't change but attacks will get stronger because of the suit. Hence any new top attack Sanji shows will be tied to his suit.

Comparing it to Zoro is completely wrong because it isn't the sword which makes Zoro strong. It is Zoro's training which makes him strong. Hence new attacks are tied to Zoro himself not to his swords
[automerge]1604668822[/automerge]

His durability is increased hence he is able to attack harder because the blowback is lower..quite simple.

This is why you should read what is actually stated. Nowhere did I claim or imply that statement as fact...I stated it as a possibility... something likely but not proved

Again with Zoro because of his sword, the power is different. You’re using a double standard here giving raid suit credit for Sanji but not Enma credit for Zoro.

Enmas attack power dwarfs Shusui, but saying because RS gives Sanji a durability boost ergo more power but Enma doesn’t give Zoro an attack power boost ergo more power is just wrong.

Both have received power ups that will now be used regularly. Give Enma as much credit as you’re giving Raid Suit bud.

 

[HA001]

Again with Zoro because of his sword, the power is different. You’re using a double standard here giving raid suit credit for Sanji but not Enma credit for Zoro.

Enmas attack power dwarfs Shusui, but saying because RS gives Sanji a durability boost ergo more power but Enma doesn’t give Zoro an attack power boost ergo more power is just wrong.

Both have received power ups that will now be used regularly. Give Enma as much credit as you’re giving Raid Suit bud.

Enma doesnt give zoro any attack power boost tf are you on. Enma used ZOROS RYOU.

 

[Geo]

P

Again with Zoro because of his sword, the power is different. You’re using a double standard here giving raid suit credit for Sanji but not Enma credit for Zoro.

Enmas attack power dwarfs Shusui, but saying because RS gives Sanji a durability boost ergo more power but Enma doesn’t give Zoro an attack power boost ergo more power is just wrong.

Both have received power ups that will now be used regularly. Give Enma as much credit as you’re giving Raid Suit bud.

There's no double standards if you actually understand the point. Enma and RS are not the same.

Except that is not Enma's attack power. It is Zoro's own attack power. The sword forcefully releases Zoro's haki when he doesn't want to. It is all Zoro's own power. This where the training comes in. Zoro has to train to prevent the sword from doing what he doesn't want which is making him stronger.

The power up Zoro got is his training. Sanji on the other hand didn't train to get the suit working. He put it on and automatically got the boosts. Zoro didn't get any boost from holding the sword. He got stronger from training to control the sword.

In the end, Zoro's training is similar to Luffy's Udon training with seastone. Both are getting stronger because of their own abilities not something external. their power up is from training.

Sanji's on the other hand got his power up from an external element with no training required to use. His power up is from technology. He says this himself when they first found the suit on the ship. Sanji said he wouldn't rely on technology to be strong.



To put it even more simply, take away Enma and Zoro's abilities from training will not disappear.
However, if you take away the RS from Sanji, he loses all those boosts instantly.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

P

There's no double standards if you actually understand the point. Enma and RS are not the same.

Except that is not Enma's attack power. It is Zoro's own attack power. The sword forcefully releases Zoro's haki when he doesn't want to. It is all Zoro's own power. This where the training comes in. Zoro has to train to prevent the sword from doing what he doesn't want which is making him stronger.

The power up Zoro got is his training. Sanji on the other hand didn't train to get the suit working. He put it on and automatically got the boosts. Zoro didn't get any boost from holding the sword. He got stronger from training to control the sword.

In the end, Zoro's training is similar to Luffy's Udon training with seastone. Both are getting stronger because of their own abilities not something external. their power up is from training.

Sanji's on the other hand got his power up from an external element with no training required to use. His power up is from technology. He says this himself when they first found the suit on the ship. Sanji said he wouldn't rely on technology to be strong.



To put it even more simply, take away Enma and Zoro's abilities from training will not disappear.
However, if you take away the RS from Sanji, he loses all those boosts instantly.

You take Enma away Zoros power is going to drop. You wanna know why? Zoro can’t flow the amount of haki he can with Enma as much as he does without Enma.

Zoro is training to holding back his haki not sending it out, Enma does that for him.

They are the same. Both grant boosts to their perspective holder. Enma is an external element just like Raid suit but you seem like you wanna treat it like some no name sword which it’s not.

Both got power ups that are external. Neither are as strong without their external power up as they are with them. You can’t make a double standard just because you want their to be one despite being shown that Enma and raid suit are the same.

 

[HA001]

You take Enma away Zoros power is going to drop. You wanna know why? Zoro can’t flow the amount of haki he can with Enma as much as he does without Enma.

Zoro is training to holding back his haki not sending it out, Enma does that for him.

They are the same. Both grant boosts to their perspective holder. Enma is an external element just like Raid suit but you seem like you wanna treat it like some no name sword which it’s not.

Both got power ups that are external. Neither are as strong without their external power up as they are with them. You can’t make a double standard just because you want their to be one despite being shown that Enma and raid suit are the same.

Thats bullshit. Zoro can flow how much he wants.
Once tamed enma doesnt taki his ryou. And he tamed it instantly.

 

[Geo]

You take Enma away Zoros power is going to drop. You wanna know why? Zoro can’t flow the amount of haki he can with Enma as much as he does without Enma.

Zoro is training to holding back his haki not sending it out, Enma does that for him.

They are the same. Both grant boosts to their perspective holder. Enma is an external element just like Raid suit but you seem like you wanna treat it like some no name sword which it’s not.

Both got power ups that are external. Neither are as strong without their external power up as they are with them. You can’t make a double standard just because you want their to be one despite being shown that Enma and raid suit are the same.

No his power doesn't drop. Dont know how many times this has to be stated. The sword is using Zoro's power. His power doesn't change and it doesn't get boosted. You are wrong. Zoro doesn't want to flow that much haki in the first place which is why he is preventing the sword from doing so.

Can't you see the contradiction in your own statement. Zoro is training to prevent the sword from doing something he doesn't want the sword to do. Yet you claim that the sword doing that very thing makes Zoro stronger....

They are not. You dumbing down their difference just to ignore what's right in your face. I've already explained it intensively to show that your point holds no weight and is actually wrong.

There is no double standards in pointing out that two mechanisms have very different applications

 

[Garps tekkai]

There's no worry about Zoro's Asura disposability in my opinion. Asura is indeed a mode as we know, not a single attack. And a mode can't be forgotten or vanish like nothing, he simply never felt like triggering it.

There's no sensible way to believe he magically lost it; and who knows, perhaps it will be shown as a manifest of CoC.

Yeah, you are probably right.
Sanji just used a new fire based ability out of the blue aswell. Oda basically can drop Asura whenever he feels like it.

It's just that I would have liked it if he at one point just teased it a little.
Sadly we got nothing up until now.

And where does that CoC connection stems from? Those abilities have nothing in common imo.
But let's have this potential debate on another day.
I was in to write a longer reply about this topic, but then I decided to make a thread about this, the following days, so I deleted it.
Perhaps we will see us there :)

 

[Ograg fromHouseIsland]

( everything is post Time-Skip )

If Luffy

A : Base form
B : Gear 2/ Gear 3
C : Gear 4

Then we saw :

> Luffy A, B, C we saw everything
> Zoro A, we didn't saw B and C level
> Sanji A, B, we didn't saw C level
> Robin A, we didn't saw B level
> Franky A, B, we didn't saw C level
> Brook A, B, we saw everything
> Usopp A we saw everything
> Nami A, we didn't saw B level
> Chopper A, we didn't saw B level

 

[pg13]

The context was a gag but that doesn't make his statement a gag. It is also supported by the fact that since then he hasn't used a superior attack to that.
Highly doubtful. It might change because of the Raid suit but not without

We also have a statement in chapter 856 of Sanji saying "he hurt Luffy to the best of his ability" Hell Memories was not used one time...............and this statement isn't a gag either infact its more serious. So which one is true bro? lmao. This is why you don't try to gauge strength based on statements bruh.

[automerge]1604678568[/automerge]

Because his siblings get the abilities boosted by their RS. Again even without using boosters, the RS adds durability. More durability = Sanji being able to hit harder...hence all his attacks get stronger.

Again you are misunderstanding the point. I haven't argued that Zoro hasn't gotten stronger through his training. Him getting stronger through said training is irrelevant to the fact that he hasn't used his ultimate technique.

Also this attack power take of yours pretty cap based on what we've seen in the manga. His attack power literally hasn't changed...... Sanji area of effect in Base is the same.

 

[Geo]

We also have a statement in chapter 856 of Sanji saying "he hurt Luffy to the best of his ability" Hell Memories was not used one time...............and this statement isn't a gag either infact its more serious. So which one is true bro? lmao. This is why you don't try to gauge strength based on statements bruh.

Yes he can hurt Luffy to the best of his abilities without actually using Hell Memories. This statement could be interpreted in the form that Sanji wasn't holding back the attacks he used on Luffy. I have not gauged Sanji's strength because of his statement. His statement is about an attack being his ultimate technique.

You can claim that Sanji is a liar...which to an extent is true. However, the point about HM being his ultimate technique isn't only based on his statement. It is based on him not using a stronger attack than that in subsequent arcs where he has been in losing positions in matches.

Also this attack power take of yours pretty cap based on what we've seen in the manga. His attack power literally hasn't changed...... Sanji area of effect in Base is the same

You are out of your depth on this one. The impact lines show the direction of force. How big it is not proportional to the amount of power used. If you had done a little research without cherry picking panels, you wouldn't have made such a point.

>The impact lines drawn for King vs Sanji is not only for Sanji's kick it is also for King's kick. By your logic, you are claiming King's kicks are weaker than base Sanji's kicks.

> When DJ Sanji clashes with Doffy for the first time, there are impact lines just about the same size as the ones you've posted with base Sanji. So by your logic of size, DJ Sanji kicks are equal or weaker to base Sanji kicks.

> Again when Sanji uses Poele a fire spectre on DD , those impact lines are actually far smaller than the previous point. So is named DJ attacks weaker than no name ones?

> Also there is no impact line drawn for HM, does that mean HM is weaker than base kicks?

> When Big Mom clashes with Kong Gun, there's an impact line which is even smaller than the one you posted for Sanji v Daifuku. By your logic base Sanji has Kong Gun + level of attacks

 

[pg13]

Yes he can hurt Luffy to the best of his abilities without actually using Hell Memories. This statement could be interpreted in the form that Sanji wasn't holding back the attacks he used on Luffy. I have not gauged Sanji's strength because of his statement. His statement is about an attack being his ultimate technique.

You can claim that Sanji is a liar...which to an extent is true. However, the point about HM being his ultimate technique isn't only based on his statement. It is based on him not using a stronger attack than that in subsequent arcs where he has been in losing positions in matches.



You are out of your depth on this one. The impact lines show the direction of force. How big it is not proportional to the amount of power used. If you had done a little research without cherry picking panels, you wouldn't have made such a point.

>The impact lines drawn for King vs Sanji is not only for Sanji's kick it is also for King's kick. By your logic, you are claiming King's kicks are weaker than base Sanji's kicks.

> When DJ Sanji clashes with Doffy for the first time, there are impact lines just about the same size as the ones you've posted with base Sanji. So by your logic of size, DJ Sanji kicks are equal or weaker to base Sanji kicks.

> Again when Sanji uses Poele a fire spectre on DD , those impact lines are actually far smaller than the previous point. So is named DJ attacks weaker than no name ones?

> Also there is no impact line drawn for HM, does that mean HM is weaker than base kicks?

> When Big Mom clashes with Kong Gun, there's an impact line which is even smaller than the one you posted for Sanji v Daifuku. By your logic base Sanji has Kong Gun + level of attacks

Yes he can hurt Luffy to the best of his abilities without actually using Hell Memories. This statement could be interpreted in the form that Sanji wasn't holding back the attacks he used on Luffy. I have not gauged Sanji's strength because of his statement. His statement is about an attack being his ultimate technique.

You can claim that Sanji is a liar...which to an extent is true. However, the point about HM being his ultimate technique isn't only based on his statement. It is based on him not using a stronger attack than that in subsequent arcs where he has been in losing positions in matches.



You are out of your depth on this one. The impact lines show the direction of force. How big it is not proportional to the amount of power used. If you had done a little research without cherry picking panels, you wouldn't have made such a point.

>The impact lines drawn for King vs Sanji is not only for Sanji's kick it is also for King's kick. By your logic, you are claiming King's kicks are weaker than base Sanji's kicks.

> When DJ Sanji clashes with Doffy for the first time, there are impact lines just about the same size as the ones you've posted with base Sanji. So by your logic of size, DJ Sanji kicks are equal or weaker to base Sanji kicks.

> Again when Sanji uses Poele a fire spectre on DD , those impact lines are actually far smaller than the previous point. So is named DJ attacks weaker than no name ones?

> Also there is no impact line drawn for HM, does that mean HM is weaker than base kicks?

> When Big Mom clashes with Kong Gun, there's an impact line which is even smaller than the one you posted for Sanji v Daifuku. By your logic base Sanji has Kong Gun + level of attacks

Theres also an argument to be made that the Fishman Island Dialogue from Sanji can be interpreted as a Gag......the way in which the characters are drawn also implies its just a gag. Whereas the statement from Sanji in whole cake is 100% serious. Your trying to say Sanji went all out in fish island when he literally told us he went all out on luffy in whole cake............ And YES Sanji is a liar lmao. Plus the Concasse Attack in general has better portrayal than anything Sanjis used Post Timeskip. Concasse briefly Knocked out Luffy (who's leagues stronger than Watdusmi )and even the Germa soldiers commented on Sanjis power after he used the attack. (Infact people almost always say something about this attack when Sanji uses it.

And we can't forget Concasse is the attack that allowed Sanji to break tekkai,for the first time.

[automerge]1604691712[/automerge]

Yes he can hurt Luffy to the best of his abilities without actually using Hell Memories. This statement could be interpreted in the form that Sanji wasn't holding back the attacks he used on Luffy. I have not gauged Sanji's strength because of his statement. His statement is about an attack being his ultimate technique.

You can claim that Sanji is a liar...which to an extent is true. However, the point about HM being his ultimate technique isn't only based on his statement. It is based on him not using a stronger attack than that in subsequent arcs where he has been in losing positions in matches.



You are out of your depth on this one. The impact lines show the direction of force. How big it is not proportional to the amount of power used. If you had done a little research without cherry picking panels, you wouldn't have made such a point.

>The impact lines drawn for King vs Sanji is not only for Sanji's kick it is also for King's kick. By your logic, you are claiming King's kicks are weaker than base Sanji's kicks.

> When DJ Sanji clashes with Doffy for the first time, there are impact lines just about the same size as the ones you've posted with base Sanji. So by your logic of size, DJ Sanji kicks are equal or weaker to base Sanji kicks.

> Again when Sanji uses Poele a fire spectre on DD , those impact lines are actually far smaller than the previous point. So is named DJ attacks weaker than no name ones?

> Also there is no impact line drawn for HM, does that mean HM is weaker than base kicks?

> When Big Mom clashes with Kong Gun, there's an impact line which is even smaller than the one you posted for Sanji v Daifuku. By your logic base Sanji has Kong Gun + level of attacks

Until we see Sanji destroy something or do damage he couldn't do prior, there's no proof the raid suit has increased his attack power from what the manga has shown. If it did increase his attack power it couldn't have been much if he's still able to be overpowered by Veterans.(Daifuku & Page One)

 

[Geo]

Theres also an argument to be made that the Fishman Island Dialogue from Sanji can be interpreted as a Gag......the way in which the characters are drawn also implies its just a gag. Whereas the statement from Sanji in whole cake is 100% serious. Your trying to say Sanji went all out in fish island when he literally told us he went all out on luffy in whole cake............ And YES Sanji is a liar lmao. Plus the Concasse Attack in general has better portrayal than anything Sanjis used Post Timeskip. Concasse briefly Knocked out Luffy (who's leagues stronger than Watdusmi )and even the Germa soldiers commented on Sanjis power after he used the attack. (Infact people almost always say something about this attack when Sanji uses it.

As I said before, the Statement itself isn't my whole point. There is support from that statement being the fact that he hasn't used a stronger attack than HM.

No concasse doesn't have better portrayal. Luffy was already exhausted from an 11 hour battle. Even then he went on to take several attacks from Sanji without defending. It is a cumulation of those attacks which led to Luffy getting briefly knocked out.
Even then the Opera brothers knocked Luffy out for an even longer period which puts their attack above concasse.

And we can't forget Concasse is the attack that allowed Sanji to break tekkai,for the first time.

Except the panel you posted clearly states that he nearly broke it. Which means he didn't break it.

 

[pg13]

As I said before, the Statement itself isn't my whole point. There is support from that statement being the fact that he hasn't used a stronger attack than HM.

No concasse doesn't have better portrayal. Luffy was already exhausted from an 11 hour battle. Even then he went on to take several attacks from Sanji without defending. It is a cumulation of those attacks which led to Luffy getting briefly knocked out.
Even then the Opera brothers knocked Luffy out for an even longer period which puts their attack above concasse.



Except the panel you posted clearly states that he nearly broke it. Which means he didn't break it.

Why do you think Hells Memories is a stronger attack? What makes you think its more powerful than Sanji going into the air spinning and coming down with a kick? Even in games they don't portray this dudes best attack as Hell memories. This whole thing doesn't make sense, why would Sanji or any straw hat use their strongest attacks at fishman island when none of them were pushed? You realize Dressrosa and Wano are the only arcs that required the crew to fight and Sanji didn't stay in dressrosa so want's literally the only fighting arc Sanjis been in since they entered the new world.

 

[Geo]

Why do you think Hells Memories is a stronger attack? What makes you think its more powerful than Sanji going into the air spinning and coming down with a kick? Even in games they don't portray this dudes best attack as Hell memories. This whole thing doesn't make sense, why would Sanji or any straw hat use their strongest attacks at fishman island when none of them were pushed? You realize Dressrosa and Wano are the only arcs that required the crew to fight and Sanji didn't stay in dressrosa so want's literally the only fighting arc Sanjis been in since they entered the new world.

It produces the most power, has the most AOE, highest DC, highest range, has the most fire. It is quite clear.
There's nothing wrong with him showing it at FI when Jinbei also showed his "supposed ultimate" there too then went on to use it again against Big Mom.

 

[pg13]

It produces the most power, has the most AOE, highest DC, highest range, has the most fire. It is quite clear.
There's nothing wrong with him showing it at FI when Jinbei also showed his "supposed ultimate" there too then went on to use it again against Big Mom.

I mean.... I guess........ but that does imply he wasn't going all out against Doffy, Vergo or Judge. Sanji would have lost regardless against doffy, but Vergo and Judge fights would turn into a whole different matter if the characters went all out.

 

[Geo]

I mean.... I guess........ but that does imply he wasn't going all out against Doffy, Vergo or Judge. Sanji would have lost regardless against doffy, but Vergo and Judge fights would turn into a whole different matter if the characters went all out.

Yes he didn't use his ultimate against those 3

 

[stairs-kun]

SH's who went all out include Luffy and Sanji. Sanji used his ultimate attack "Hell Memories" and said he himself went all-out against Luffy.

Zoro has much to show. Asura and even his eye-scar flashback. Zoro strolled the new world using 45% of his power, MAX. I mean he one-shotted a YC2 character.

Usopp bloomed his observation haki. I'll say he's gone mostly 80%. He probably have one or two moves we don't know about yet.

Nami superseded her strength when she acquired Zeus. I'll say Zeus was her max potential until we see what else Oda has in-store for her.

We learned brook trained his DF during the timeskip. I'd say he probably has a few more attacks up his sleeves. But he maxed his speed since pre-ts. Its the same speed that surprises Big Mom.

Robin, she just been chilling. She hasn't gone all-out yet. We still haven't seen the extent of her clones and how well she trained her df. Her clone arms once could harm her, but now it seems even if they are hurt it won't do her damage.

Chopper has shown the extent of his awakened form. And possible other forms?

Franky upgrades himself frequently, so I don't know about him.

Jinbei? I don't know yet.