Versus Battle Toji vs Jogo

[Welkin]

Naobito ~ Naoya in speed.

Wrong

Naobito was confirmed to be the 2nd fastest sorcerer in the modern era

That includes Naoya (though he probably isn't that far behind)

Spoiler

Maki shat on that before she even became Toji level.

Not with speed

Maki was nowhere close to Naoya in movement speed, she beat him by counting the frames and figuring out the trick to Projection Sorcery

Spoiler

Her increased perception allowed her to see the trick to Projection Sorcery and pierce through it (with a little time)

Her movement speed wasn't highlighted at all here

Where she shat on CURSE Naoya who was casually hitting Mach 3 levels of speed

Once again, nothing to do with movement speed

What was highlighted in her fight with Naoya was her newfound senses

Spoiler

"Everything around me will tell me how Naoya will move"

Her senses have improved

She was never anywhere near this Naoya in speed

She could perceive him which allowed her to handle his high speed movement

Her movement speed didn't change

The speed scaling goes Toji ~ current Maki > Curse Naoya > preCG Maki > Naobito/Naoya.

The speed scaling goes Cursed Naoya > Naobito >= Naoya >= Jogo >= Toji/Maki

Pre CG Maki (speed wise) doesn't exist

Her body is the same, all she gained was skill/technique and superior senses[/QUOTE]

 

[ConquistadoR]

Maki was nowhere close to Naoya in movement speed, she beat him by counting the frames and figuring out the trick to Projection Sorcery

Correct, this is how i interpret Naobito's title.

Only Gojo, the literal space warper who teleports Kilometres is faster.

Technically you are right, Naobito is the second fastest, faster than Yuki, Yuta, Hakari even though he'd get stomped in a 1v1 because they can certainly keep up with him in combat. Even though they cant move as fast as Naobito.

Now answer me, if Maki can keep up & stomp Naobito/Naoya levels of Speed even before attaining Toji perceptions, and then proceeds to stomp someone with Superior Speed in Cursed Naoya... why the hell is Jogo here in speed conversations?

 

[Welkin]

Correct, this is how i interpret Naobito's title.

Only Gojo, the literal space warper who teleports Kilometres is faster.

Technically you are right, Naobito is the second fastest, faster than Yuki, Yuta, Hakari even though he'd get stomped in a 1v1 because they can certainly keep up with him in combat. Even though they cant move as fast as Naobito.

Now answer me, if Maki can keep up & stomp Naobito/Naoya levels of Speed even before attaining Toji perceptions, and then proceeds to stomp someone with Superior Speed in Cursed Naoya... why the hell is Jogo here in speed conversations?

Because the downfall of Projection Sorcery is how one dimensional it is (and how dumb the users are, Naoya would've one shot Choso with his knife if he wasn't a Pseudo-Curse)

You can count the frames and predict where they'll land and if you interrupt them mid movement they get frozen

And the biggest weakness, they can only do straightforward attacks

This does not apply to Jogo who has countless combos

1. Ember Insects

Fast, they attack through sound and they explode, can attack from multiple different angles as shown, and (as far as we know) they don't die until they "activate"

A 2 part attack (could be 3 parts, Gojo didn't know what would happen if it stung him) that even Gojo considers impressive

Spoiler

He can throw them out and set up for another attack

Maki/Toji who don't have CE to protect their ears would have a hard time with these (See: Gojo shuddering)

They also explode if cut so Maki, who doesn't have ISOH, is fucked if she tries to counterattack

Spoiler

2. Volcano Plumes

Jogo can spawn mini volcanoes from any surface

This allows Jogo to attack someone from multiple angles at once and take them by surprise

Spoiler

In the last picture Jogo summoned the volcanoes before he even turned around

Proving he doesn't even have to look at the surface before he summons it

why the hell is Jogo here in speed conversations

You're the one that brought up speed lol

Plus you pretty much said it yourself

Speed isn't everything

 

[Durableguy]

Jogoat is top 5

 

[ConquistadoR]

Fast, they attack through sound and they explode, can attack from multiple different angles as shown, and (as far as we know) they don't die until they "activate"

A 2 part attack that even Gojo considers impressive

Bro this Toji downplay...

This guy is capable of reacting to MACH 3 Projectile to the point where it cannot land a SINGLE hit on him.
And you're arguing these insects will be a problem to Toji....

The insects get the same treatment Dagon's Shikigami got.

Jogo can spawn mini volcanoes from any surface

This allows Jogo to attack someone from multiple angles at once and take them by surprise

It has a charge up time, and surely Toji can move out of the way before it explodes - he's capable of insane bursts of short speed.

See Jogo is strong aight. I am not saying Jogo is weak.
However, this Toji downplay is insane lol.

Gege literally worships Toji, he dedicated half of his manga to hype Toji indirectly/directly.
Domains don't work on this guy, and he's so fast at combat/reactions/dodging that Cursed Naoya cannot even land a single hit on him.
And to add to it, Gege literally drew not one but TWO fights where Toji or his equivalent stomped Disaster Curse/Curse Naoya (similar level essentially, Cursed Spirits with sentience & Domains) and that's with just a single Cursed Tool each time, not even the whole arsenal.

Yuta/Hakari/Maki are the New Generation Special Grade Sorcerors and they are > Disaster Curses.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Yuta/Hakari/Maki

I am not sure about him, we never saw him fight someone with a domain

 

[ConquistadoR]

I am not sure about him, we never saw him fight someone with a domain

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1678079399017713666

Gege compensates this by making Hakari's Domain superior to regular Domains, as in it just overwhelms theirs in clashes since it's non-lethal.
He was faster than even Mahito's 0.2 second DE. And they can't use DE more than once, whereas he can spam it.

That and he hits pretty hard in Jackpot, he was overwhelming Yuji physically even without it.

I think he beats all of them.

 

[Midnight Delight]

he was overwhelming Yuji physically even without it.

Yuji wasn't really fighting back tbf

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Jogo's cooler, which is all that matters.

 

[Welkin]

Bro this Toji downplay...

This guy is capable of reacting to MACH 3 Projectile to the point where it cannot land a SINGLE hit on him.
And you're arguing these insects will be a problem to Toji....

He's reacting to 1 person moving that fast

That isn't the same as reacting to a horde of insects moving at high speed

The insects get the same treatment Dagon's Shikigami got.

Except Ember Insects explode when cut and attack through sound

Dagon's Shikigami just die, Jogo's don't

It has a charge up time

A negligible one lol

and surely Toji can move out of the way before it explodes - he's capable of insane bursts of short speed.

I'm not saying he gets caught and fried instantly or anything

I'm saying it'll be rough to deal with

If he can spawn them on any surface what's stopping him from laying a trap where Toji moves to?

Not saying it would be that easy but it's a possibility

See Jogo is strong aight. I am not saying Jogo is weak.
However, this Toji downplay is insane lol.
Gege literally worships Toji, he dedicated half of his manga to hype Toji indirectly/directly.
Domains don't work on this guy, and he's so fast at combat/reactions/dodging that Cursed Naoya cannot even land a single hit on him.

I really don't think it's downplay

He's strong but he isn't the only character that gets hype

Jogo and Mahito get way more hype than they're given credit for

Gege confirmed in a fanbook that Jogo/Mahito would give Kenjaku a hard time in a 1 on 1 fight

Here are the 2 translations

"In a 1-on-1 fight, he (Pseudo-Geto) can take on his fellow cursed spirits and use his technique on them. But he thinks Jogo and Mahito would be quite tough."

“Q: Will Jogo, Hanami, and Mahito be under the Cursed Spirit Manipulation control if he tries to do so?

A: If it’s a one-to-one fight. But Jogo and Mahito will be tough.”

Gege also confirmed in the same fanbook that Kenjaku would be able to kill Toji

"Q: Didn't he think of taking over Gojo Satoru or Toji Fushigoro?

A: Gojo is impossible for him. Putting it simply, he can't kill Gojo. It's not impossible for Toji, but the moment he transfers, Toji's Heavenly Restriction will clash with his own cursed technique, and there's a possibility that a bug may occur, so there's no point in taking over those 2 people."

Narratively he's far more important than Jogo but strength wise the gap isn't as big as you think it is

And to add to it, Gege literally drew not one but TWO fights where Toji or his equivalent stomped Disaster Curse/Curse Naoya (similar level essentially, Cursed Spirits with sentience & Domains) and that's with just a single Cursed Tool each time, not even the whole arsenal.

Toji beat Dagon (didn't blitz him nonstop and had assistance with his levitation at the end) who we've established is far below Jogo in canon. Completely undeniable

Maki also beat Cursed Naoya with help and took him by surprise at the end when he was focused on the Sumo and Sword guys

Naoya literally tells them to stop messing around while he's thinking

Spoiler

uta/Hakari/Maki are the New Generation Special Grade Sorcerors and they are > Disaster Curses

Yuta, yes

The other 2 are debatable

Gege compensates this by making Hakari's Domain superior to regular Domains, as in it just overwhelms theirs in clashes since it's non-lethal.
He was faster than even Mahito's 0.2 second DE.

This doesn't mean his domain will automatically overwhelm theirs

Dagon's domain was superior to Megumi's but he was still able to hold on for a while

There's no reason to believe Hakari's domain would automatically win, especially with what we know so far

Kenjaku, even with his open domain and superior barrier technique, said that if Yuki had opened her domain "it may not have led to such a poor conclusion"

Spoiler

The gap has to be very wide for a domain to be overwhelmed. The only 2 characters we know of that can/have overwhelmed a domain are Sukuna and Gojo

That and he hits pretty hard in Jackpot, he was overwhelming Yuji physically even without it.

Hakari in or out of Jackpot has 0 speed or reaction feats

Not to mention he's confirmed to be slower than Naobito

I don't see how Jogo has a major problem with him

 

[Midnight Delight]

It's not impossible for Toji

It's not impossible isn't the same as "probably"

 

[ConquistadoR]

He's reacting to 1 person moving that fast

That isn't the same as reacting to a horde of insects moving at high speed

Moving at what high speeds tbh?
Which character of note had trouble with Jogo's insects?

I'd rather pick this guy who couldn't be attacked even once by a character at Mach speeds rather than gift magical feats to these insects.

Except Ember Insects explode when cut and attack through sound

Dagon's Shikigami just die, Jogo's don't

When have they exploded when cut? They attack with sound and once they close distance, they explode.
If Toji kills them before they explode there wouldn't be any problem at all.

A negligible one lol

Why exactly, again?
Because Naobito had trouble with it, he's a Snail to Toji in reactions - no need to drag Toji down.

If he can spawn them on any surface what's stopping him from laying a trap where Toji moves to?

The point is Toji would easily move away before Jogo would even initiate the attack.
His senses are far greater and faster attack speeds failed to hit him, even once.

Gege confirmed in a fanbook that Jogo/Mahito would give Kenjaku a hard time in a 1 on 1 fight

Here are the 2 translations

"In a 1-on-1 fight, he (Pseudo-Geto) can take on his fellow cursed spirits and use his technique on them. But he thinks Jogo and Mahito would be quite tough."

“Q: Will Jogo, Hanami, and Mahito be under the Cursed Spirit Manipulation control if he tries to do so?

A: If it’s a one-to-one fight. But Jogo and Mahito will be tough.”

Gege also confirmed in the same fanbook that Kenjaku would be able to kill Toji

"Q: Didn't he think of taking over Gojo Satoru or Toji Fushigoro?

A: Gojo is impossible for him. Putting it simply, he can't kill Gojo. It's not impossible for Toji, but the moment he transfers, Toji's Heavenly Restriction will clash with his own cursed technique, and there's a possibility that a bug may occur, so there's no point in taking over those 2 people."

Idk what this is proving here exactly tbh.

Gege never said Toji is easy to kill for Kenjaku while Jogo or Mahito are hard.
Gege merely said Kenjaku killing Toji is not impossible.

I never said Toji > Kenjaku so this point is moot entirely.

Narratively he's far more important than Jogo but strength wise the gap isn't as big as you think it is

Yes, it is.
I've seen two fights of him bullying Curses within their own Domain expansions.

Toji beat Dagon (didn't blitz him nonstop and had assistance with his levitation at the end)

Idk how one can read the Sakurajima colony fight & think Toji needed that "assist" to beat Dagon... whether it's an assist or not is irrelevant.
Toji never went all out there, nor did he needed to do so against Megumi. He was toying with his prey, while having fun fighting strong people.

Maki also beat Cursed Naoya with help and took him by surprise at the end when he was focused on the Sumo and Sword guys

Naoya literally tells them to stop messing around while he's thinking

Yeah nah, look at the context - he was treating them as insects inside his Domain where he didn't even need to move a finger to stomp them.

He cannot tag Maki with speed, he cannot really trap Maki in his Domain, nor does his Surehit work on Maki when she enters it.
While she can one-shot him with Soul Splitter.

Another instance of where you shouldn't look at "assistance" and look more at the bigger picture at what Gege is trying to tell you.

Yuta, yes

The other 2 are debatable

Nah, all three do.
They are grouped together far too many times in this manga, the portrayal is obvious.

Dagon's domain was superior to Megumi's but he was still able to hold on for a while

There's no reason to believe Hakari's domain would automatically win, especially with what we know so far

The reason to believe it is simple - it's surehit is Non-Lethal unlike the Disaster Curses Domains which are Lethal.
Since he sacrifices there, the potency of his Domain is boosted - that's what got mistranslated as "He can be Aggressive" by Viz.
His activation speeds exceeds even Mahito from Shibuya, and he can spam it continuously while Jogo can only use it once.

And even if he doesn't overwhelm it - I'd love to see a Jogo-struggling to hold his own Domain in place, trying to fight Jackpot Hakari and not get stomped.

Hakari in or out of Jackpot has 0 speed or reaction feats

He can keep up with Kashimo just fine, he was in fact hyped for his speed when he fought Charles the man who can see the Future.
Kashimo, the Strongest of an Era, considered Hakari a worthy fight.

That praise alone is enough. Jackpot Hakari will be playing football with Jogo.

Not to mention he's confirmed to be slower than Naobito

Slower in movement, not in reactions.
He can certainly keep up with Naobito in combat, just like how Maki/Toji did.
Dont keep mixing the two up.

I don't see how Jogo has a major problem with him

Nah, New Gen Special Grades >>

 

[Ven437]

Toji still stomps with ISOH or SSK. Low diff at worst.

 

[Welkin]

Moving at what high speeds tbh?

I'd rather pick this guy who couldn't be attacked even once by a character at Mach speeds rather than gift magical feats to these insects.

The guy who can dodge a single character moving at Mach 3

Not multiple bugs moving fast

Which character of note had trouble with Jogo's insects?

He only used them on Sukuna and Gojo so....

When have they exploded when cut? They attack with sound and once they close distance, they explode.
If Toji kills them before they explode there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Posted a picture of them exploding earlier in the discussion but I don't mind posting it again

Spoiler

I can link a clip as well

1:53 - 2:00

Why exactly, again?
Because Naobito had trouble with it, he's a Snail to Toji in reactions - no need to drag Toji down.

Cause it's shown to be pretty much instant

Naobito landed and got fried immediately

The point is Toji would easily move away before Jogo would even initiate the attack.
His senses are far greater and faster attack speeds failed to hit him, even once.

You keep saying faster attacks have failed to hit him but completely neglect that these are attacks coming from multiple angles

Snakeman isn't dangerous just because it's fast, it's dangerous because multiple fists can come from any direction

Idk what this is proving here exactly tbh.

Gege never said Toji is easy to kill for Kenjaku while Jogo or Mahito are hard.
Gege merely said Kenjaku killing Toji is not impossible.

I never said Toji > Kenjaku so this point is moot entirely.

I didn't say that either

My point is that Gege said Jogo/Mahito individually would be tough for Kenjaku to handle

Gege also said Kenjaku is able to beat Toji (likely high diff)

The disparity you believe exists between the 2 groups wouldn't make sense if Toji could low diff Jogo

If Toji >>>> Jogo

Then how does he lose to Kenjaku, who according to the author would have a tough time with Jogo?

Yeah nah, look at the context - he was treating them as insects inside his Domain where he didn't even need to move a finger to stomp them.

True, but it wasn't a straight fight

Maki stabbed him in the back while he was distracted by Daido and Miyo

Idk how one can read the Sakurajima colony fight & think Toji needed that "assist" to beat Dagon... whether it's an assist or not is irrelevant.
Toji never went all out there, nor did he needed to do so against Megumi. He was toying with his prey, while having fun fighting strong people.

He didn't go all out based on what?

It's never said he was holding back

Nothing that was shown in Sakuraijima colony makes that Toji seem stronger

Dagon never hits him so his reactions are still elite, and he's noted to be fast

Nothing changed

He didn't need the assistance but I don't see how he deals with Dagon's levitation, though he could just wait the domain out

Yeah nah, look at the context - he was treating them as insects inside his Domain where he didn't even need to move a finger to stomp them.

The same insects gave Maki an opening to stab him in the back

He cannot tag Maki with speed, he cannot really trap Maki in his Domain, nor does his Surehit work on Maki when she enters it.
While she can one-shot him with Soul Splitter.

Another instance of where you shouldn't look at "assistance" and look more at the bigger picture at what Gege is trying to tell you.

I never said Maki would lose, only that it definitely would've been a tougher fight without assistance which is true

Even without his sure hit a domain boosts your CT efficiency by 120% (per Megumi's words, a complete domain might give you a bigger increase)

Who knows what Naoya could've done with 120% Projection Sorcery

Nah, all three do.
They are grouped together far too many times in this manga, the portrayal is obvious.

They're the strongest of the new generation and the "seniors"

This is the same logic people use to say Zoro and Sanji are equal when we know that isn't true

They're both "Wings" aren't they?

The reason to believe it is simple - it's surehit is Non-Lethal unlike the Disaster Curses Domains which are Lethal.
Since he sacrifices there, the potency of his Domain is boosted - that's what got mistranslated as "He can be Aggressive" by Viz.

That doesn't mean he overwhelms any other domain though

Again, only 1 character has straight up overwhelmed their opponents domain (Gojo) and only 1 other character has been confirmed to do the same thing to someone of Jogo's level (Sukuna)

His activation speeds exceeds even Mahito from Shibuya, and he can spam it continuously while Jogo can only use it once.

He can only use it again after Jackpot

If you stop him from rolling Jackpot he's fucked

And even if he doesn't overwhelm it - I'd love to see a Jogo-struggling to hold his own Domain in place, trying to fight Jackpot Hakari and not get stomped.

You make it sound like it would be hard

Jackpot Hakari has 0 speed feats and literally just punches people to death

Jogo is faster than him and has powerful ranged attacks

This is without mentioning that Jackpot Hakari still feels pain and reels from attacks

What makes you think Jogo would have a hard time?

The struggling to hold his domain in place thing is a joke too

Shibuya Megumi who had already expended some of his CE was able to hold his incomplete domain up against Dagon during the entire fight

Jogo has copious amounts of CE and his domain has only ever failed/been said to fail against the 2 strongest characters in the verse

Dunno why you believe his domain would magically collapse

He can keep up with Kashimo just fine, he was in fact hyped for his speed when he fought Charles the man who can see the Future.

You mean the manga artist who had never been in a fight in his life?

That's who his speed was hyped up against?

Not to mention Charles, a civillian, was able to predict where he was attacking from (his blindspot so this didn't involve seeing the future) and prepare a counter attack

Spoiler

Jogo's running circles around him, literally

Kashimo, the Strongest of an Era, considered Hakari a worthy fight.

The strongest of a much weaker era, not the same as being the strongest during the Heian Period or the Modern day

That praise alone is enough. Jackpot Hakari will be playing football with Jogo.

Jackpot Hakari can't even touch Jogo lol

His speed was compared to Naobito's (again, confirmed to be > Hakari in speed) and he has ranged attacks

Why would he get anywhere near Hakari when he doesn't have to?

Slower in movement, not in reactions.
He can certainly keep up with Naobito in combat, just like how Maki/Toji did.
Dont keep mixing the two up.

Yes, and in this case movement speed is very important

Jackpot Hakari is slower than Jogo, so why would Jogo play to Hakari's strengths? (close combat)

He could bully him from range and there's nothing Hakari could do about it

Maki was slower than Naoya so she waited for him to get close and slept him, Hakari doesn't have the same luxury against a speedster that can play range

Nah, New Gen Special Grades >>

Yuta? Maybe, and really only cause he has RCT Output

Maki and Hakari? No shot

 

[ConquistadoR]

Not multiple bugs moving fast

He only used them on Sukuna and Gojo so....

Fast for who again?
Which powerful character has those insects overwhelmed?
Why am i supposed to gift feats for these insects when Dagon's swarm did nothing?

Toji has far better performances vs far better attack speeds, he has never been hit in this manga except by Gojo.

Posted a picture of them exploding earlier in the discussion but I don't mind posting it again

aka an Anime only sequence which isn't present in the manga.
Even if that's the case, nothing's stopping Toji from doing the same thing - cut, slash & then move away from the explosions.

Cause it's shown to be pretty much instant

Naobito landed and got fried immediately

Naobito is a SNAIL to Toji.
Weaker characters getting fucked by attacks doesn't mean Toji is having problems with it.

You keep saying faster attacks have failed to hit him but completely neglect that these are attacks coming from multiple angles

Snakeman isn't dangerous just because it's fast, it's dangerous because multiple fists can come from any direction

And pray tell, the maximum Volcanoes that Jogo has produced in the manga is what? 2 or 3?
Snakeman throws 30 punches which consistently change direction, Jogo does nothing like that.

This is Cursed Naoya crying about how he cannot land a single attack on Toji, this is a guy capable of travelling more than TWICE faster than Top-Speed Naoya (Naobito never used his Top Speed vs Dagon too btw).

Capable of literally grabbing the air & changing direction instantly... Maki/Toji can legit move in the air like Sukuna does lol.

Toji dodges them in his sleep. He was considered "fast" by a Six Eyes user's perception.
Nobody except Six Eyes users can even sense Toji when he's standing behind them, Maki even got the drop on Sukuna lmao.

Then how does he lose to Kenjaku, who according to the author would have a tough time with Jogo?

What difficulty did Yuki give to Kenjaku?

I believe Toji would perform on a similar level.
And Jogo/Mahito won't, they'd still get stomped by Toji or Yuki.

Maki stabbed him in the back while he was distracted by Daido and Miyo

The same insects gave Maki an opening to stab him in the back

Maki stabbed him in the back because he could not trap her in his Domain, she was free to enter & exit.
That is what will happen to people like Jogo too, stabbed in the back when they are looking for Toji not knowing that he exited it whenever he wanted to.

I never said Maki would lose, only that it definitely would've been a tougher fight without assistance which is true

Even without his sure hit a domain boosts your CT efficiency by 120% (per Megumi's words, a complete domain might give you a bigger increase)

Who knows what Naoya could've done with 120% Projection Sorcery

What use is that when he can't even trap Maki in his Domain?

They're the strongest of the new generation and the "seniors"

This is the same logic people use to say Zoro and Sanji are equal when we know that isn't true

They're both "Wings" aren't they?

Different mangas.

Kenjaku considers the trio as the Heavy Hitters of Jujutsu High, and has even stated how wary he is of Maki.
They are all close in strength & Special Grade level, they will all beat Disaster Curses quite easily.

That doesn't mean he overwhelms any other domain though

Again, only 1 character has straight up overwhelmed their opponents domain (Gojo) and only 1 other character has been confirmed to do the same thing to someone of Jogo's level (Sukuna)

Well, Hakari is the only character who got this info being dropped about his Domain in the entire manga, that it would overpower other Domains.
Except Gojo, Open Barrier Domains and unknown quantities like Yuta's DE... Hakari's DE usually comes out on top.

Jackpot Hakari has 0 speed feats and literally just punches people to death

Incorrect, he has enough speed feats. He is hyped for his general speed, that was the whole point of the Charles fight - to hype Hakari.

He just has it against Kashimo so you can now act like his hyped speed & power is irrelevant here because he didn't do it against a character which can be scaled against Jogo.

But you'll have no where left to run with this excuse when he eventually shows off in Jackpot against Uraume, someone who can turn Jogo into paste. So it's a ticking time bomb.

His speed was compared to Naobito's (again, confirmed to be > Hakari in speed) and he has ranged attacks

Disingeneous again, Hakari just cannot move as fast as Naobito whereas he can beat his ass comfortably.

Yuta? Maybe, and really only cause he has RCT Output

Maki and Hakari? No shot

Yes, all three of them shit on Disaster Curses lol.
Maki can one shot any curse with Soul Splitter, Full Power Hakari is just Unkillable for these too.

 

[Welkin]

Fast for who again?
Which powerful character has those insects overwhelmed?
Why am i supposed to gift feats for these insects when Dagon's swarm did nothing?

Gojo considers Ember Insects impressive

That's enough for me

oji has far better performances vs far better attack speeds, he has never been hit in this manga except by Gojo.

This is disingenuous

How many people have Toji fought for that to be impressive?

Teen Geto? Megumi? Dagon?

As soon as Gojo refreshed his brain he effortlessly dodged his blitz attempt and then went untouched for the rest of the fight

Naobito is a SNAIL to Toji.
Weaker characters getting fucked by attacks doesn't mean Toji is having problems with it.

Not my point

The point is it's not a "slow" attack and the "start up" is negligible

I didn't say he'd immediately get tagged, only that he would have to work to dodge volcanoes that Jogo could plant at multiple locations

Even if that's the case, nothing's stopping Toji from doing the same thing - cut, slash & then move away from the explosions.

Toji isn't Sukuna

Aren't you gifting feats here?

What makes you think he could cut hundreds of Ember Insects and dodge the explosions?

And pray tell, the maximum Volcanoes that Jogo has produced in the manga is what? 2 or 3?
Snakeman throws 30 punches which consistently change direction, Jogo does nothing like that.

Good thing Jogo has more than Volcanoes

He can summon a swarm of Ember Insects and have them rush Toji from multiple directions which is exactly what he did to Gojo

As far as we know they have no time limit and even if he tries to destroy them they'll blow up

15F Sukuna who's >>>> Toji dodging them doesn't mean Toji can do the same

This is Cursed Naoya crying about how he cannot land a single attack on Toji, this is a guy capable of travelling more than TWICE faster than Top-Speed Naoya (Naobito never used his Top Speed vs Dagon too btw).

Cursed Naoya with straightforward attacks, yes

Maki only has to worry about him coming at her from a single direction, not the same as dodging a swarm of Ember Insects while also worrying about Volcanoes spawning on any surface

Toji dodges them in his sleep. He was considered "fast" by a Six Eyes user's perception.

You mean he was fast to tired Teen Gojo?

Wasn't his whole plan based around tiring Gojo out cause he could've sensed him otherwise?

Nobody except Six Eyes users can even sense Toji when he's standing behind them, Maki even got the drop on Sukuna lmao.

This is irrelevant unless he has prep

Maki's "invisibility" didn't help when she was actually fighting Sukuna

What difficulty did Yuki give to Kenjaku?

I believe Toji would perform on a similar level.
And Jogo/Mahito won't, they'd still get stomped by Toji or Yuki.

You're arguing against the author of the manga

In his own words Jogo and Mahito are capable of pushing Kenjaku in a 1v1 fight

I can provide a link to the fanbook if you want it

Maki stabbed him in the back because he could not trap her in his Domain, she was free to enter & exit.
That is what will happen to people like Jogo too, stabbed in the back when they are looking for Toji not knowing that he exited it whenever he wanted to.

Why would Jogo open his domain when Ember Insects and the Volcanoes are enough?

He only opened his domain against Gojo (who he was losing to) after Gojo pissed him off

He won't instantly open his domain

Different mangas.

Kenjaku considers the trio as the Heavy Hitters of Jujutsu High, and has even stated how wary he is of Maki.
They are all close in strength & Special Grade level, they will all beat Disaster Curses quite easily.

Makes no difference

A bunch of characters being in the same "group" doesn't mean they're equal

Gojo, Yuta, Yuki, and Geto are the 4 Human Special Grades

Are they equal?

Well, Hakari is the only character who got this info being dropped about his Domain in the entire manga, that it would overpower other Domains.

It's "strong in clashes" that doesn't mean he'll instantly overwhelm any other domain in the series

Again, Megumi with an incomplete domain was able to keep his domain open against a curse that's tiers above him with far more CE

What makes you think Hakari's instantly overwhelming someone like Jogo's domain lol

Incorrect, he has enough speed feats. He is hyped for his general speed, that was the whole point of the Charles fight - to hype Hakari.

To hype Hakari against a civilian with 0 combat experience?

He just has it against Kashimo so you can now act like his hyped speed & power is irrelevant here because he didn't do it against a character which can be scaled against Jogo.

0 speed feats, his punches are powerful but meaningless against a speedster he can't hit

But you'll have no where left to run with this excuse when he eventually shows off in Jackpot against Uraume, someone who can turn Jogo into paste. So it's a ticking time bomb.

Uraume also isn't on Jogoat's level

Though she does aid my point

Where was Maki/Toji's magical reaction speed when Uraume froze Maki for a chapter?

Spoiler

She saw it coming but couldn't dodge it in time

Legendary reaction speed though

:cheers:

Disingeneous again, Hakari just cannot move as fast as Naobito whereas he can beat his ass comfortably.

Does Naobito have range?

Can Naobito summon volcanoes on any surface from a distance?

Does Naobito have flying shikigami that attack through sound, explode, and explode on destruction with a mysterious effect when stung?

Yes, all three of them shit on Disaster Curses lol.
Maki can one shot any curse with Soul Splitter, Full Power Hakari is just Unkillable for these too.

Maki can one shot literally anyone with Soul Splitter if it hits

Does she beat Kenjaku? Or Sukuna? Or Gojo?

Just saying "she one shots" doesn't mean anything

Full Power Hakari is far from unkillable

Mahito literally one shots him with a touch, Jogo turns him to ash, the rest probably lose though

The only one that can beat the 2 of them comfortably is Yuta and that's only cause he has RCT Output

Respect Jogoat

 

[ConquistadoR]

Gojo considers Ember Insects impressive

That's enough for me

Gojo called that Dude who had a Cloning technique in his flashback impressive as he fodderized him.
It's worth nothing.

That technique has Zero hype of its own and basically got fodderized everytime it was used.
It's upto you to convince me that someone as clean as Toji is gonna be hit by it.

How many people have Toji fought for that to be impressive?

Teen Geto? Megumi? Dagon?

Teen Gojo, Teen Geto, Dagon in his Domain & Megumi.

All 4 have multidirectional attacks, Gojo even used All Out Blue against him and still failed to tag him.
He needed to literally become Godlike to beat Toji.

He can summon a swarm of Ember Insects and have them rush Toji from multiple directions which is exactly what he did to Gojo

As far as we know they have no time limit and even if he tries to destroy them they'll blow up

15F Sukuna who's >>>> Toji dodging them doesn't mean Toji can do the same

What makes you think he could cut hundreds of Ember Insects and dodge the explosions?

What makes you think he cannot do so?

His portrayal indicates so.
The way Gege hypes him indicates so.
Maki's feats indicates so.
Toji's own feats against Dagon's shikigami indicate so.

Honestly, Dagon's swarm of endless Shikigami which only manifest after they attack you >>>>> Jogo's half a dozen fodder insects.

Maki's "invisibility" didn't help when she was actually fighting Sukuna

It sure does help against Domain Expansions, because this is basically what happened to Naoya - only difference being Maki killed him with one strike.
The exact same thing will happen to Jogo lmfao.

Why would Jogo open his domain when Ember Insects and the Volcanoes are enough?

Because bro's getting fodderized without (or with) his Domain.

Again, Megumi with an incomplete domain was able to keep his domain open against a curse that's tiers above him with far more CE

What makes you think Hakari's instantly overwhelming someone like Jogo's domain lol

Dagon can be >>> Megumi, nothing really states that Dagon's Domain is superior refinement wise that it would instantly dominate the space like Hakari's DE got (due to its non-lethality).

It takes Hakari less than 0.2 seconds to open up a DE, something even Mahito cannot do.

0 speed feats, his punches are powerful but meaningless against a speedster he can't hit

As i said before, pure troll argument - pretending he ain't got feats just because he has all of them against Kashimo.
Jackpot Hakari with 100% CE would stomp Jogo when it comes to combat speeds.

Uraume also isn't on Jogoat's level

Uraume is another character who would no-diff that Bum.

Where was Maki/Toji's magical reaction speed when Uraume froze Maki for a chapter?

When she was targeted while she was fighting fucking Sukuna? Lmfaooo nice nitpicking.

Panda & Kusakabe dodges Jogo's Maximum Technique at the last moment while even Toji cannot do the same against Uraume's Maximum Output (not Goku no Ban).

There are multiple tiers between a bum like Jogo and someone like Uraume.

Maki can one shot literally anyone with Soul Splitter if it hits

Does she beat Kenjaku? Or Sukuna? Or Gojo?

Good thing that Jogo isn't even on Mahito's level let alone being comparable to Kenjaku or Sukuna or Gojo.

Mahito literally one shots him with a touch

Automatic RCT for the Soul baby!
You can't do anything against him.

Makes no difference

A bunch of characters being in the same "group" doesn't mean they're equal

Gojo, Yuta, Yuki, and Geto are the 4 Human Special Grades

Are they equal?

Stupid comparision.

The author consistently shows Gojo as an Exception among Sorcerors while he has the Smartest Character in the entire manga group Yuta/Hakari/Maki as the "Heavy Hitters" of Jujutsu High.

You can cope all you want... about that portrayal not being DIRECTLY combat related but that's the truth.
All 3 of them stomp Disaster Curses 1v1, Yuta probably solos the 4 of them.

 

[MUUGEN]

The guy who can dodge a single character moving at Mach 3

Not multiple bugs moving fast



He only used them on Sukuna and Gojo so....



Posted a picture of them exploding earlier in the discussion but I don't mind posting it again

Spoiler

I can link a clip as well

1:53 - 2:00



Cause it's shown to be pretty much instant

Naobito landed and got fried immediately



You keep saying faster attacks have failed to hit him but completely neglect that these are attacks coming from multiple angles

Snakeman isn't dangerous just because it's fast, it's dangerous because multiple fists can come from any direction



I didn't say that either

My point is that Gege said Jogo/Mahito individually would be tough for Kenjaku to handle

Gege also said Kenjaku is able to beat Toji (likely high diff)

The disparity you believe exists between the 2 groups wouldn't make sense if Toji could low diff Jogo

If Toji >>>> Jogo

Then how does he lose to Kenjaku, who according to the author would have a tough time with Jogo?




True, but it wasn't a straight fight

Maki stabbed him in the back while he was distracted by Daido and Miyo



He didn't go all out based on what?

It's never said he was holding back

Nothing that was shown in Sakuraijima colony makes that Toji seem stronger

Dagon never hits him so his reactions are still elite, and he's noted to be fast

Nothing changed

He didn't need the assistance but I don't see how he deals with Dagon's levitation, though he could just wait the domain out



The same insects gave Maki an opening to stab him in the back



I never said Maki would lose, only that it definitely would've been a tougher fight without assistance which is true

Even without his sure hit a domain boosts your CT efficiency by 120% (per Megumi's words, a complete domain might give you a bigger increase)

Who knows what Naoya could've done with 120% Projection Sorcery



They're the strongest of the new generation and the "seniors"

This is the same logic people use to say Zoro and Sanji are equal when we know that isn't true

They're both "Wings" aren't they?



That doesn't mean he overwhelms any other domain though

Again, only 1 character has straight up overwhelmed their opponents domain (Gojo) and only 1 other character has been confirmed to do the same thing to someone of Jogo's level (Sukuna)



He can only use it again after Jackpot

If you stop him from rolling Jackpot he's fucked



You make it sound like it would be hard

Jackpot Hakari has 0 speed feats and literally just punches people to death

Jogo is faster than him and has powerful ranged attacks

This is without mentioning that Jackpot Hakari still feels pain and reels from attacks

What makes you think Jogo would have a hard time?

The struggling to hold his domain in place thing is a joke too

Shibuya Megumi who had already expended some of his CE was able to hold his incomplete domain up against Dagon during the entire fight

Jogo has copious amounts of CE and his domain has only ever failed/been said to fail against the 2 strongest characters in the verse

Dunno why you believe his domain would magically collapse



You mean the manga artist who had never been in a fight in his life?

That's who his speed was hyped up against?

Not to mention Charles, a civillian, was able to predict where he was attacking from (his blindspot so this didn't involve seeing the future) and prepare a counter attack

Spoiler

Jogo's running circles around him, literally



The strongest of a much weaker era, not the same as being the strongest during the Heian Period or the Modern day



Jackpot Hakari can't even touch Jogo lol

His speed was compared to Naobito's (again, confirmed to be > Hakari in speed) and he has ranged attacks

Why would he get anywhere near Hakari when he doesn't have to?



Yes, and in this case movement speed is very important

Jackpot Hakari is slower than Jogo, so why would Jogo play to Hakari's strengths? (close combat)

He could bully him from range and there's nothing Hakari could do about it

Maki was slower than Naoya so she waited for him to get close and slept him, Hakari doesn't have the same luxury against a speedster that can play range



Yuta? Maybe, and really only cause he has RCT Output

Maki and Hakari? No shot

why don’t you use manga panels scrub ?

 

[NikaInParis]

The winner is clear:

 

[NAMELESS]

Some people think Jogo can win, but I personally think Toji stomps. If it was JoGoat on the other hand...

Spoiler

I don't even remember this guy lol