Versus Battle Tou Vs Earl Shi Ei

[Elder Lee Hung]

The main point is, saying Earl Shi is superior in combat because he killed three Wei GGs and Tou didn't kill any great general during his time is the fallacy since we know the 7 Wei Dragons vary in power drastically from the pure strategical Great General Rei Ou who was killed with one hit from Shin to Gaimou who could easily keep up with him. how can we determine whether the 3 generals killed by Earl Shi were pure strategical like Great General Gouhoumei and Rei Ou or physically powerful, and if it's the latter, are we just going to scale them to Tou's combat strength without seeing them in combat ?

I feel you, but with that said Shi is *purely* a martial general. He might have basic tactical insight (he pincered the Gyoku Hou) But his abilities as a General are pretty much only based on his abilities as a fighter.

Tou on the other hand has extreme tactical skill, to the point that he has no weaknesses that even top tier strategists like Rei Ou can exploit.

That is to say that Shi slaying 3 GGs, by default can hype nothing else but his martial prowess, on top of everything else we know about his legendary strength.

This might be an unpopular opinion but I pretty much think Tou showed everything he will ever show martially against Rinbukun. And Rinbukun is strong like I said by Shi’s Martial history/hype is even greater than Ouki’s and Renpa’s, since so far as we know, neither of them ever actually slayed any GGs in battle while Shi slayed three.

I would also like to point out that if the Wei Fire Dragons thus far, 2 of them were purely martial generals, one of them was a top tier strategist who still was a strong warrior, and the last one had no martial ability at all.

Meaning by probability, at least one of the GGs Shi slayed should’ve had top tier martial skill. Hell I would argue that given the ratio of non-martial GGs to martial GGs from the other states, I’d be shocked if at least 2 of the Dragons Shi slayed were not top tier fighters.

And like I said, Tou has likely shown his greatest martial feat already against Rinbukun. The only way Tou can show more than he has against Rinbukun is if he literally slays a Great General at some point in the future, which highly likely won’t happen given that Tou considers himself more of a backup General anyway.

 

[Desolate Smaug]

Earl Shi also has an X factor of some sort in the form of Rage. Which means at full power he is easily above the 96 given in his stat.

You guys should also look up Tai Ro Ji, one of the seven FD that Earl Shi slew. The man is massive. He is no doubt a martial type like Gaimou. Maybe weaker but his appearance is that of martial type character.

 

[Xione]

Earl Shi also has an X factor of some sort in the form of Rage. Which means at full power he is easily above the 96 given in his stat.

Where do you see this? The stats don't show any alpha boost for him like they do for Shin/etc, unless you mean the rage mode, that's pretty much for all generals, even Tou has his rage mode where he goes wild. IE, near Ouki's death he was about to go wild.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

You guys should also look up Tai Ro Ji, one of the seven FD that Earl Shi slew. The man is massive. He is no doubt a martial type like Gaimou. Maybe weaker but his appearance is that of martial type character.

He’s already Rinbukun sized with no armor on lol.

Post automatically merged: Sep 13, 2019

Earl:
- Inferior to Gaimou, who was inferior to Ouki

That in and of itself is highly, highly debatable. Gaimou probably has higher brute power than the Earl but people forget that Glaive Shin thrashed Gaimou around quite a bit.

Plus Gaimou’s hype is nothing compared to Shi’s lol. This deserves its own thread tho.

 

[Xione]

That in and of itself is highly, highly debatable. Gaimou probably has higher brute power than the Earl but people forget that Glaive Shin thrashed Gaimou around quite a bit.

Plus Gaimou’s hype is nothing compared to Shi’s lol. This deserves its own thread tho.

Gaimou:
- Renowned as the Great Warrior of the Fire Dragons
- Famed for taking the heads of 100 generals


Gaimou was compared to the likes of Ouki and Renpa, his introduction to the main story had to do with getting excited about fighting the person who could take out Ouki and Kyou. Shin himself then atests to his power.

Gaimou is the only Wei Dragon so far known that is a GG simply because of their combat strength, so much so he has a strategist who does the planning for his armies.

Shin would've done the same to Earl Shi that he did to Gaimou.



And to bring up stats again: 97 (gaimou) vs 96 (earl)

Gaimou is also the one Oda is gonna use for Shin when the begin the invasion of Wei. But yea, Gaimou was the main warrior of the Fire Dragons.

Spoiler

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Gaimou:
- Renowned as the Great Warrior of the Fire Dragons
- Famed for taking the heads of 100 generals


Gaimou was compared to the likes of Ouki and Renpa, his introduction to the main story had to do with getting excited about fighting the person who could take out Ouki and Kyou. Shin himself then atests to his power.

Gaimou is the only Wei Dragon so far known that is a GG simply because of their combat strength, so much so he has a strategist who does the planning for his armies.



And to bring up stats again: 97 (gaimou) vs 96 (earl)

Gaimou is also the one Oda is gonna use for Shin when the begin the invasion of Wei. But yea, Gaimou was the main warrior of the Fire Dragons.

Spoiler

Okay, so Shi’s hype:

-Strongest spear weilder in China, and in the history of Wei. Literally unrivaled as a spear user unlike Gaimou who is nothing more than a top tier General.

-killed 500 people by the time he turned 15. Not even Shin or Ouhon can boast that.

-Gaimou is the only GG solely based on martial ability? Um...Earl Shi? Lmfao, literally 0 strategic ability hyped, only became a GG due to martial prowess.

Gaimou slaying 100 Generals isn’t impressive compared to Rinbukun let alone Earl Shi. Slaying 100 Generals is something Kaishibou also did. Rinbukun slayed not only, in the words of Yoku, “easily over 100 Xiongnu Generals” Who are easily > standard generals like Heki if Yotanwa’s men are anything to go by, and yet Rinbukun < Tou =< actual GGs. Of whom, Shi has slayed more than any other character in Kingdom history. Literally.

I don’t think Gaimou’s hype > Shi’s for 1 second. Lol

 

[Xione]

Okay, so Shi’s hype:

-Strongest spear weilder in China, and in the history of Wei. Literally unrivaled as a spear user unlike Gaimou who is nothing more than a top tier General.

-killed 500 people by the time he turned 15. Not even Shin or Ouhon can boast that.

-Gaimou is the only GG solely based on martial ability? Um...Earl Shi? Lmfao, literally 0 strategic ability hyped, only became a GG due to martial prowess.

Gaimou slaying 100 Generals isn’t impressive compared to Rinbukun let alone Earl Shi. Slaying 100 Generals is something Kaishibou also did. Rinbukun slayed not only, in the words of Yoku, “easily over 100 Xiongnu Generals” Who are easily > standard generals like Heki if Yotanwa’s men are anything to go by, and yet Rinbukun < Tou =< actual GGs. Of whom, Shi has slayed more than any other character in Kingdom history. Literally.

I don’t think Gaimou’s hype > Shi’s for 1 second. Lol

-This doesn't mean much, when 90% of the top fighters fight with either the sword or the glaive, with Earl Shi being the only top fighter who's shown fighting with the spear. (leaving 10% to unknown scrub generals that might fight with the spear).
- This again doesn't mean much, just means he's stronger than the average adult, something Shin already was as well, same for ouhon.
- Earl Shi has 89 intellect its weird you don't consider that him being good with tactics but consider Gokei a strong fighter who has 89 in strength. He is on par with the likes of Ouhon in intellect, that is why he's not shown with a strategist. Gaimou literally has to be told what to do, Earl Shi does not. Earl Shi makes his own decisions and plans.

Gaimou slaying 100 generals shouldn't be impressive, i agree. But you're the only person who seems to find a person rated 96 slaughtering generals who were more than likely rated 90 or below in strength, impressive. More so you're clinging hard on to it as if you know how strong they were, despite Hara not even bothering to mention their strength, which would atleast hype up Earl Shi's strength.




-> Reserved for Shin for Wei Campaign, with a rematch already set
-> 97 rating, above Earl Shi's
-> Labeled the "might warrior" of the fire dragons, aka the main warrior of the fire dragons
-> Introduced with trying to take on the opponent that supposedly killed Ouki and Duke Hyou
-> His weight of a general is acknowledged by Shin similar to that of Renpa's.

Spoiler

There is no bigger combat hype in Kingdom, when you get compared to the likes of Ouki & Renpa (essentially the two top fighters of their era) man. There's only Houken above that, unless Earl Shi got comparisons with Houken, he doesn't have anything on Gaimou's hype.

 

[DizzyBrows]

Tou. Ouki himself stated that Tou's abilities were never lower than his own, whether or not he meant literally that they were = or that they were just comparable to each other, either way he's far superior to somebody on the level of Earl Shi and since Tou has been active for years while Earl Shi was imprisoned for the longest, I think Tou would be more experienced.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

-This doesn't mean much, when 90% of the top fighters fight with either the sword or the glaive, with Earl Shi being the only top fighter who's shown fighting with the spear. (leaving 10% to unknown scrub generals that might fight with the spear).
- This again doesn't mean much, just means he's stronger than the average adult, something Shin already was as well, same for ouhon.
- Earl Shi has 89 intellect its weird you don't consider that him being good with tactics but consider Gokei a strong fighter who has 89 in strength. He is on par with the likes of Ouhon in intellect, that is why he's not shown with a strategist. Gaimou literally has to be told what to do, Earl Shi does not. Earl Shi makes his own decisions and plans.

Gaimou slaying 100 generals shouldn't be impressive, i agree. But you're the only person who seems to find a person rated 96 slaughtering generals who were more than likely rated 90 or below in strength, impressive. More so you're clinging hard on to it as if you know how strong they were, despite Hara not even bothering to mention their strength, which would atleast hype up Earl Shi's strength.

-> Reserved for Shin for Wei Campaign, with a rematch already set
-> 97 rating, above Earl Shi's
-> Labeled the "might warrior" of the fire dragons, aka the main warrior of the fire dragons
-> Introduced with trying to take on the opponent that supposedly killed Ouki and Duke Hyou
-> His weight of a general is acknowledged by Shin similar to that of Renpa's.

Spoiler

There is no bigger combat hype in Kingdom, when you get compared to the likes of Ouki & Renpa (essentially the two top fighters of their era) man. There's only Houken above that, unless Earl Shi got comparisons with Houken, he doesn't have anything on Gaimou's hype.

There is much to address here, I’ll do my best lol:

-Being the greatest spear weilder of all time is not a big deal? I think you can only make this point if you haven’t been paying attention to Ouhon. Ouhon this past arc pressed Bananji so hard that Bananji had to throw his glaive away and pull some complete BS lmfao. Hell, Ouhon essentially slayed Gyou’Un in two hits and Gyou’Un was directly compared to Gaimou by Shin. Sure there was GyouUn seriously wounding Ouhon but still, Ouhon definitely won that fight and even if you think current Ouhon = Earl Shi when Shi is probably above him, this doesn’t fare well for Gaimou.

-Saying “killing 500 adults by the time you turned 15 just makes you stronger than the average adult” is probably the single weirdest thing I’ve ever seen anyone say about Kingdom lol. I can’t think of anybody in the history of the manga that has done this, maybe Kyoukai or the other Shiyu, How is this “above average” lol

-I’ve told you before, I don’t even acknowledge the existence of Kingdom databook stats. There are too many discrepancies, they’re not worth taking seriously at all. Shi having an 89 IQ for me is equally as valid as him having potato IQ. I go by feats, and by feats, Shi has shown nothing outside of the Pincer which is one of the most basic tactics in Kingdom, if not the most.
Gokei having an 89 in strength isn’t why I think he’s strong. I think he’s strong because he’s *shown* us he is strong. By matching one of the strongest Generals in combat for a time.

-I’ve said it a few times now. I don’t think the Wei Dragons that Shi slayed were martial generals got no reason, I say it because majority of generals in this manga are martial generals to some extent. Of all the Great Generals we’ve ever seen in this manga, ever, exactly 3 of them had either no, or subpar martial ability. Exactly 3. Out of like, 13. Probability is that at least one of them was a heavily martial general.

Unless you think this design

Is supposed to hype strategic acumen. Lol

-at the end of the day, I guess it depends what you value more between Gainou’s Hype and Shi’s, but imo the fact that current Ouhon slayed Gyou’Un doesn’t make Shi vs Gaimou appear a good matchup for Gaimou lol.

-> Introduced with trying to take on the opponent that supposedly killed Ouki and Duke Hyou

Huh? Who? What happened?

Also, there is greater hype than Ouki or Renpa. Ouki states multiple times that Houken was > him, and Kanmei and Moubu were as well.

 

[Xione]

-

Post automatically merged: Sep 13, 2019

-Being the greatest spear weilder of all time is not a big deal? I think you can only make this point if you haven’t been paying attention to Ouhon. Ouhon this past arc pressed Bananji so hard that Bananji had to throw his glaive away and pull some complete BS lmfao. Hell, Ouhon essentially slayed Gyou’Un in two hits and Gyou’Un was directly compared to Gaimou by Shin. Sure there was GyouUn seriously wounding Ouhon but still, Ouhon definitely won that fight and even if you think current Ouhon = Earl Shi when Shi is probably above him, this doesn’t fare well for Gaimou.

-Saying “killing 500 adults by the time you turned 15 just makes you stronger than the average adult” is probably the single weirdest thing I’ve ever seen anyone say about Kingdom lol. I can’t think of anybody in the history of the manga that has done this, maybe Kyoukai or the other Shiyu, How is this “above average” lol

-I’ve told you before, I don’t even acknowledge the existence of Kingdom databook stats. There are too many discrepancies, they’re not worth taking seriously at all. Shi having an 89 IQ for me is equally as valid as him having potato IQ. I go by feats, and by feats, Shi has shown nothing outside of the Pincer which is one of the most basic tactics in Kingdom, if not the most.
Gokei having an 89 in strength isn’t why I think he’s strong. I think he’s strong because he’s *shown* us he is strong. By matching one of the strongest Generals in combat for a time.

-I’ve said it a few times now. I don’t think the Wei Dragons that Shi slayed were martial generals got no reason, I say it because majority of generals in this manga are martial generals to some extent. Of all the Great Generals we’ve ever seen in this manga, ever, exactly 3 of them had either no, or subpar martial ability. Exactly 3. Out of like, 13. Probability is that at least one of them was a heavily martial general.

Unless you think this design

Is supposed to hype strategic acumen. Lol

-at the end of the day, I guess it depends what you value more between Gainou’s Hype and Shi’s, but imo the fact that current Ouhon slayed Gyou’Un doesn’t make Shi vs Gaimou appear a good matchup for Gaimou lol.



Huh? Who? What happened?

Also, there is greater hype than Ouki or Renpa. Ouki states multiple times that Houken was > him, and Kanmei and Moubu were as well.

Likewise there is much to address, so here it goes:

- Yes it is not a big deal, if he was the strongest sword user you might have some sort of a point. If he was the strongest Glaive user you might have a point. When you're the only top fighter in the entire manga who weilds the spear.. yea that shit doesn't hold much. As far as mention Ouhon, as long as if it gives him some hype.. yea man you're the only guy i've seen in the entire kingdom fandom who holds Ouhon in such a high-regard. Even your "Ouhon slays Gyou'un in two hits" is out of perspective. Gaimou and Gyou'un weren't compared, what was compared was the powerful hit between the two.

- Don't know how it's hard for you to understand, that Shin/Kyoukai/Ouhon/any other top youngster at the age of 15 was capable of killing hundreds of fodder.. lol. "I can't think of anybody in history of the manga".. Because nobody's needed to kill 500 men to be hyped up. You're trying so hard to make this guy special with "nobody in the history of the manga" stuff.

- If you don't acknowledge stats given by the mangaka to describe the status of the characters, then that's your issue of denial of facts. There's no discussion to be had, if you're not able to accept the stats. You probably shouldn't be discussing Kingdom characters in their abilities if you're willing to ignore basic stuff like stats, that describe where those characters stand and how much they progressed up to that point. The issues with the stats you're talking about.. I've already asked you to list em before and i've already addressed the major misconceptions regarding the stats.. none of which make the stats invalid. Yea.. Gokei is strong because Duke fucked him up fairly easily, or did Gokei doing good when the Duke was testing him out until he got serious make you think he's strong? Lol. This is the first time i've heard anyone call Gokei a strong fighter with the standard being the likes of the Duke/Tou/Earl Shi/ etc.

- Considering Hara didn't bothering mentioning their fighting power, it's not gonna be all that impressive contrast to Gaimou and Earl Shi.

- That's not saying much, since Shin would've fucked up Gyou'un as well lol. The man couldn't even use his main hand, and had to rely on his off-hand. But he felt cocky that Ouhon was weak enough to be finished off with just his left arm, which Ouhon ended up proving wrong. It was essentially Injured Houken vs tired out Shin scenario again. And what Shin compared was specifically the hit of Gyou'un said last time he probably took such a powerful hit was against Gaimou. But if you think that meant the guy who shin surpassed this arc = the guy who he has a match set up with in wei arc, then to each his own.


Ok let's address this:

Ouki called Houken superior in what? Speed, physical strength, combat technique
Did Ouki ever call Houken the superior fighter? Nope. In fact he continued to lecture him about how he doesn't have the weight of a general and that's why he can't beat him (related to the experience stat). So no Ouki never said Houken > me. Renpa again is the same way. Kanmei & Moubu compared to Ouki & Renpa? Come on now man. Sure if Kanmei and Moubu gained the same amount of weight as them, but sadly Kanmei didn't. And Moubu probably will by Chu invasion or slightly before probably. Earl Shi & Gaimou both possess more weight than Kanmei and Moubu.

And I already stated unless Earl Shi was compared to Houken, he doesn't have much on Gaimou's hype.

 

[Owl Ki]

My personal opinion, the stats are bullshit. Lol.

There are numerous instances where the stats fly in the face of both logic and the manga itself. Examples include but are not limited to;

1) Gokei being Rank B in Experience while the three surviving Fire Dragons all having Rank S Experience despite the fact they were all in jail while Gokei was continuously defending Wei single handedly.

2) Current Heki being equal to Gokei in Experience. Just, no. Lmao.

3) My personal favourite which made me give up on stats, Mougou and I quote, "Strength 85 (but strong enough to push back Renpa )". Renpa has a Strength of 97...... So 85 can completely overpower 97?

On a side note, speed is completely ignored for some reason despite the fact that some individuals best their opponents with overwhelming speed. For example, Yotanwa will comfortably defeat Rinbuken in a dual due to her speed, that doesn't mean she will defeat him in an arm wrestling competition (unless you take the Yotanwa 95 and Rinbuken 93 Strength stats seriously).

 

[Xione]

My personal opinion, the stats are bullshit. Lol.

There are numerous instances where the stats fly in the face of both logic and the manga itself. Examples include but are not limited to;

1) Gokei being Rank B in Experience while the three surviving Fire Dragons all having Rank S Experience despite the fact they were all in jail while Gokei was continuously defending Wei single handedly.

2) Current Heki being equal to Gokei in Experience. Just, no. Lmao.

3) My personal favourite which made me give up on stats, Mougou and I quote, "Strength 85 (but strong enough to push back Renpa )". Renpa has a Strength of 97...... So 85 can completely overpower 97?

On a side note, speed is completely ignored for some reason despite the fact that some individuals best their opponents with overwhelming speed. For example, Yotanwa will comfortably defeat Rinbuken in a dual due to her speed, that doesn't mean she will defeat him in an arm wrestling competition (unless you take the Yotanwa 95 and Rinbuken 93 Strength stats seriously).

1. That just points to him not participating in wars that much, possibly because he was also a vassal of a lord.
2. Not just Heki. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/etc are all as experienced Gokei
3. "strength" isn't about physical strength, but about the combat strength of a person. Renpa in a non-plot fight would've annihilated Mougou. Physical strength ( a mere part of the strength stat) is what allowed Mougou to push back Renpa.

Speed, skills and etc are taken into account in the strength stat

"

• Strength - the individual fighting skill.
• Leadership - how well one leads a squad or army.
• Knowledge - knowledge of warfare and strategy.
• Politics - the ability to govern.
• Experience - characters overall experience. This stat was introduced later in the guidebook and in contrast to others is represented by letters from E (the smallest) to SS (the largest).

"
You then have things such as Alpha boosts, which allow the person to get a boost to their fighting skills under extreme circumstances. But this is only limited for 3 characters so far; Kyoukai, Shin, and Bajio.


Experience has a huge impact on strength and knowledge, such as "weight of a general".

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

3) My personal favourite which made me give up on stats, Mougou and I quote, "Strength 85 (but strong enough to push back Renpa )". Renpa has a Strength of 97...... So 85 can completely overpower 97?

According to the stats, Great General Mougou (85) would push beginning of series Shin (90) about as hard as Shou Mou (94) pushed Ouki (98) lmfao.

Great General Mougou (85) Who has a brutal slug match with Renpa (97) while Renpa fodderized Shin (90) instantly. Lol

I’ve seen some silly databook stats, but Kingdom ranks among the silliest.

Post automatically merged: Sep 13, 2019

1. That just points to him not participating in wars that much, possibly because he was also a vassal of a lord.
2. Not just Heki. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/etc are all as experienced Gokei
3. "strength" isn't about physical strength, but about the combat strength of a person. Renpa in a non-plot fight would've annihilated Mougou. Physical strength ( a mere part of the strength stat) is what allowed Mougou to push back Renpa.

Speed, skills and etc are taken into account in the strength stat

"

• Strength - the individual fighting skill.
• Leadership - how well one leads a squad or army.
• Knowledge - knowledge of warfare and strategy.
• Politics - the ability to govern.
• Experience - characters overall experience. This stat was introduced later in the guidebook and in contrast to others is represented by letters from E (the smallest) to SS (the largest).

"
You then have things such as Alpha boosts, which allow the person to get a boost to their fighting skills under extreme circumstances. But this is only limited for 3 characters so far; Kyoukai, Shin, and Bajio.


Experience has a huge impact on strength and knowledge, such as "weight of a general".

So you’re saying in a non plot related fight, 100 Man Commander Shin would fodderize Mougou? Lmfao

Come on bruh, don’t do this

 

[Xione]

So you’re saying in a non plot related fight, 100 Man Commander Shin would fodderize Mougou? Lmfao

Come on bruh, don’t do this

100-man commander was 80 in stats, so no.

Then after the Rinko fight he became 88. Where yes he would beat Mougou, as noted multiple times in the manga, Mougou isn't much of a fighter, but possesses top notch amount of physical strength.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

100-man commander was 80 in stats, so no.

Then after the Rinko fight he became 88. Where yes he would beat Mougou, as noted multiple times in the manga, Mougou isn't much of a fighter, but possesses top notch amount of physical strength.

 

[Xione]

Lol, I mean you're trying to argue against Hara himself.

Also, no clue what brutal slugfest you saw in Mougou vs Renpa. It was literally Renpa slashing up Mougou, and mougou pushing him away couple of times failing to land a single hit on Renpa for about half a chapter hell the man didn't even put a scratch on Renpa, and then the moment Renpa actually got serious, it took him 1 strike to deal with Mougou & his horse. lol.

And then you're comparing a fresh Mougou's performance to a Shin who had already barely defeated Rinko in an extreme-diff fight? Come on man.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Lol, I mean you're trying to argue against Hara himself.

Also, no clue what brutal slugfest you saw in Mougou vs Renpa. It was literally Renpa slashing up Mougou, and mougou pushing him away couple of times failing to land a single hit on Renpa for about half a chapter hell the man didn't even put a scratch on Renpa, and then the moment Renpa actually got serious, it took him 1 strike to deal with Mougou & his horse. lol.

And then you're comparing a fresh Mougou's performance to a Shin who had already barely defeated Rinko in an extreme-diff fight? Come on man.

I say this as nicely as I possibly can. I think you're a nice guy haha. That said,

I don't even see why you comment on these matchups when the clearly nonsensical stats have formed all of your opinions for you lol.

 

[Owl Ki]

1. That just points to him not participating in wars that much, possibly because he was also a vassal of a lord.

Do tell how Gokei could possibly have participated in less wars than Reiou, Gaimou and Earl Shi considering the latter three were all in prison for a decade and a half?

As the only Great General and last Wei Fire Dragon in service, Gokei would be doing the lion's share of the work.

2. Not just Heki. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/etc are all as experienced Gokei

So you actually believe Heki has experience equal to a legendary Great General that regularly fought against the Qin Six and Zhao Three and is compared to them whenever they are brought up in conversation?

3. "strength" isn't about physical strength, but about the combat strength of a person. Renpa in a non-plot fight would've annihilated Mougou. Physical strength ( a mere part of the strength stat) is what allowed Mougou to push back Renpa.

Speed, skills and etc are taken into account in the strength stat

"

• Strength - the individual fighting skill.
• Leadership - how well one leads a squad or army.
• Knowledge - knowledge of warfare and strategy.
• Politics - the ability to govern.
• Experience - characters overall experience. This stat was introduced later in the guidebook and in contrast to others is represented by letters from E (the smallest) to SS (the largest).

"
You then have things such as Alpha boosts, which allow the person to get a boost to their fighting skills under extreme circumstances. But this is only limited for 3 characters so far; Kyoukai, Shin, and Bajio.


Experience has a huge impact on strength and knowledge, such as "weight of a general".

First time I have ever heard someone say strength and speed are the same thing but this still doesn't help your argument.

Mougou Strength 85 (but strong enough to push back Renpa), why would it bother with the bracketed bit if it takes into account everything?

Another logical fallacy, Mougou 85 and Renpa 97 duel for several minutes despite a Strength difference of 12 while Ouki 98 one shots Shoumou 94 with a Strength difference of 4.....

This makes sense how?

 

[Xione]

I say this as nicely as I possibly can. I think you're a nice guy haha. That said,

I don't even see why you comment on these matchups when the clearly nonsensical stats have formed all of your opinions for you lol.

Lol all good man, but just letting you know ignoring the stats doesn't fly in any serious kingdom discussion community. Especially when you're showing you don't have a full understanding of what the stats represent, and rather than trying to understand the stats you're aiming to invalidate Hara's own work, because you fail to understand it. lol.

As for stats forming my opinion.

- comparisons to Ouki/Renpa were done in the manga
- him being mentioned as the mighty warrior of the Wei Dragon was mentioned in the manga
- Tou's abilities on par with Ouki's was mentioned, again in the manga


I've used pretty much every thing Hara has created for Kingdom to make my points. And even correcting you multiple times on the manga events that happened, as you don't seem to fully remember them. IE, Renpa & Mougou having some sort of a brutal slugfest lol.

And I commented here, because I assumed this was a serious kingdom discussion forum. But if it's the typical shonen style non-sense, then yea probably best for me to step out ahaha.

Post automatically merged: Sep 13, 2019

Do tell how Gokei could possibly have participated in less wars than Reiou, Gaimou and Earl Shi considering the latter three were all in prison for a decade and a half?

As the only Great General and last Wei Fire Dragon in service, Gokei would be doing the lion's share of the work.

He was a vassal to a political lord, or did you miss that?

Are you saying you know more than Hara?

So you actually believe Heki has experience equal to a legendary Great General that regularly fought against the Qin Six and Zhao Three and is compared to them whenever they are brought up in conversation?

So you actually believe you know more than hara, as to who has more experience? The same Hara who went out of his way to even make an experience pyramid to let the readers know where particular generals stand?

First time I have ever heard someone say strength and speed are the same thing but this still doesn't help your argument.

Mougou Strength 85 (but strong enough to push back Renpa), why would it bother with the bracketed bit if it takes into account everything?

Another logical fallacy, Mougou 85 and Renpa 97 duel for several minutes despite a Strength difference of 12 while Ouki 98 one shots Shoumou 94 with a Strength difference of 4.....

This makes sense how?

So you had no idea what the "strength" stat represented? Lol

Summary of Mougou's fight:

-> Slashed up by Renpa
-> pushes back Renpa who is entertaining him
-> slashed up by Renpa
-> pushed back Renpa who is entertaining him
repeat 2 more times
-> Finally pushes Renpa down along with his horse
-> Renpa actually becomes serious and takes off Mougou's arm & his horses head, putting the fear of god right back into Mougou's heart

And he continued to call Mougou weak while all this happened. Not even acknowledging his strength even at the end of the fight. Same Renpa who then acknowledged Shin's strength after he presents him Rinko's swords.


Logical fallacy? No false comparison on your end. Comparing a Ouki who was full on serious in finishing the war and not trying to entertain anything, where it was supposed to show Ouki's prowess to a situation where Renpa wanted to see what Mougou was made of and once he got serious like Ouki he proceeded to essentially 1-shot him Mougou.

I mean a normal person would just assume that Ouki used more strength for Shoumou than Renpa used for Mougou.. rather than actually trying to question the guy who created the manga.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Lol all good man, but just letting you know ignoring the stats doesn't fly in any serious kingdom discussion community. Especially when you're showing you don't have a full understanding of what the stats represent, and rather than trying to understand the stats you're aiming to invalidate Hara's own work, because you fail to understand it. lol.

What do you define as a "serious Kingdom discussion community"? Lol, Reddit? I've seen Kingdom discussions on Reddit, sometimes they're okay and sometimes they are Gorilla level.

If you just define serious Kingdom discussion as "people who agree with you" then I would suggest you use a different word than "serious." Maybe more like "self fulfilling."

What value is Mougou's 85 stat if Hara has to clarify (BUT strong enough to push Renpa back). That clearly implies someone with an 85 strength stat is, usually, not strong enough to push Renpa back. So why the hell does Mougou have an 85 in strength?

Why not specify Mougou as just, whatever arbitrary number qualifies him as strong enough to push Renpa back? why not just rank him as a 95 or whatever? (Hint hint, the stats are BS).

If Bajio and Shin are so strong that they get the Alpha sign or whatever (90 + Alpha) Why not just rank them for what they are actually worth? Alpha is a non-specific factor, why is their strength quantified in a non-specific way if the strength stat is supposed to represent what they are capable of? This is basically like saying "Bajio and Shin are This strong. But not really, they're actually much stronger whenever I feel like it. How much stronger? Eat my ass, that's how much stronger."

It's just clear bullshit and I don't know why you insist that the only serious Kingdom discussions are ones where members say "Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just plot." Which imo, you might as well replace the word "plot" in that sentence with any other word in the English language, and you'd have an equally valid Idea being expressed.

"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just flatulence."

"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just turbulence."

"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just migration."

Pick any word, and you get the idea. You might as well say "Renpa didn't one shot Mougou because reasons." A point I still heavily disagree with but I'll get to that more later.

As for stats forming my opinion.

- comparisons to Ouki/Renpa were done in the manga
- him being mentioned as the mighty warrior of the Wei Dragon was mentioned in the manga
- Tou's abilities on par with Ouki's was mentioned, again in the manga

These are all valid. They are formed directly from statements/hype/plot in the Manga, and not some arbitrary poorly defined number that Hara wrote in a book one time. Why even rely on the stats which are clear bullshit?

Tou's leadership stat is a 94. Ouki's leadership stat is a 93. Just fucking what lmfao, how does Hara write these stats and make such a glaring error like that. I don't care what you think Tou's actual leadership ability is, or what Ouki's actual leadership ability is. How the fuck does one put Tou's leadership stat above Ouki's leadership stat. How does that even happen.

Putting Tou's leadership stat > Ouki's is arguing that 2+2 =5. It's such obvious bullshit that I don't even feel the need to explain why it's bullshit. Or is Tou's leadership stat above Ouki's due to plot as well? You know, the plot where Ouki was Tou's subordinate for decades.

Owl correctly pointed out that Gokei's experience stat is grossly lower than Earl Shi's which objectively makes anti-sense. There's no way, even if you use the mighty plot argument, that you can explain this discrepancy.

Tou's grand stat total is 284. Duke Hyou's stat total is 260. And yet, both are supposed to be comparably talented, on the level of the Qin 6 Generals.

Mougou's stat total is a 266, and yet he's supposed to be a completely average Great General with no standout traits while the Duke Hyou is so talented he was invited to become one of Qin's GG's at a Grand Stat total of 260. So by stats, the completely average non-special General Mougou is actually a better General than Qin 6 GG candidate Duke Hyou.

Do I need to continue? Can I stop now?

I've used pretty much every thing Hara has created for Kingdom to make my points. And even correcting you multiple times on the manga events that happened, as you don't seem to fully remember them. IE, Renpa & Mougou having some sort of a brutal slugfest lol.

Renpa and Mougou had the most brutal slug fest in the history of this manga that we've ever seen outside of Moubu Vs Kanmei, Gyou'Un Vs Shin, Ouki Vs Houken, etc. Both of them traded mighty blows back and forth until ultimately Mougou lost.

Only someone who thinks Renpa was restraining himself by 12 whole magic stat points for no good reason other than "potatoes" oh shit I mean "plot" would think that this was not a slug fest.

And I commented here, because I assumed this was a serious kingdom discussion forum. But if it's the typical shonen style non-sense, then yea probably best for me to step out ahaha.

Oh jesus dude lmfao. Yeah you're right, numbers that Hara has invented that don't even hold up to basic scrutiny like Tou's leadership ability > his own freaking boss's leadership ability, totally makes sense.