Versus Battle Tou vs Kanki

[Rumble]

Apologies for the long ass post.

Feel free to abbreviate your response. I'll shorten my next response to be more reasonable, lol.

I like the rating systems. I'll try to do my own based off my recollection:

• Tou(closer to Ouki than anyone on this
• Keisha(confirmed to be great general level, I have him above every single Zhao commander except for the old Heavens, SBS and Riboku).
• Kyou'en(fought 4 of the Qin 6 + Renpa, so survived wars against 5 top legit top tiers)/Genpou(SHK level mind)/Gyou'un(the goat).
• Bananji/Kaishibou/Akou/Chougaryuu/Rinko/Kansaro(his hype is actualy insane)/Shunsuiju(matched up against YTW twice).
• Jiaga/Rokuomi(I think he has to be at least a tier below Rinko/Kaishibou)/Ryuu Koku/Gakushou/JKR/Sou'Ou/Denrimi.

Not sure how to scale the rest.

To clarify, I don't consider everyone I put in the same rank equals. Rather than ranks, I should've called them tiers.

I consider all those I used to scale to be elite vassals. Those at #5 are elite generals that are borderline GGs in the major states but could credibly lead the military of a runt state. Tier #4 are those that lower to middle rung GGs in the major states. You get the picture.

With respect to your scaling as commanders, some notes that quickly come to mind:

• I hold Kei Sha in higher regard than most (headcanon stats STR 88 LDR 92 INT 95), but it bears keeping in mind his best feat came against a Duke Hyou that deliberately sprung his trap. He was extremely good already but I don't think he was allowed enough time or experience to reach prime and maturation, never mind apex. Eventually he would've become on par with Gyou'un, if not better, but fate cut his path short.
• In my headcanon, Kyo En replaced a 4HK he killed during his battles with Ren Pa. All in all, I consider him on par with Gyou'un overall in terms of headcanon (stats)
  • Gyou'un STR 95 LDR 93 INT 90
  • Kyo En STR 94 LDR 92 INT 92
• I don't think it's accurate to say SSJ matched up to YTW, he certainly wasn't alone when they faced, and a full accounting of context really only illuminates how supremely talented YTW is to have led her soldiers to victory on empty stomachs against close to 3:1 odds, including an 80K army at least as strong her own.
• I also think you're selling Roku O Mi's generalship short. By stats alone he's a better fighter and leader than A Kou, and the evidence bears this out. ROM has decades worth of executing at the highest level of warfare under the likes of Ou Ki and Tou, and has never failed to acquit himself well on panel, despite the odds and opposition.
• I also think Rin Ko, Kai Shi Bou and Ryuu Koku belong in the tier above

I think you're downplaying the Seika guys a bit, but I understand why you would considering some of their antifeats.

I don't consider the latest developments anti-feats because nothing happened outside the scope and estimations I had for the Seika generals (despite my generosity with headcanon stats).

I perceive the the Seika vassals to be have a lower average in leadership balanced against a very high average martial ability. As I view it, they are on par with Ri Boku's retinue and bona fide 6GG #1s and #2s, but still a half step or more below the 4HKs. From my view, that's not downplaying them, but perhaps I didn't communicate that clearly enough.

Lemme try my take on the martial list:
Man'U>=Gaimou=EarlShi>Sentou'un>Gyou'un>=Banana>Akou=Buddha=Ranbihaku>Kansaro>Shoumou>Rokuomi>Aisen=GakoshouBatei=Shiryou>Makou>Ryuu Fuu.

Buddha gave Shin one of his most difficult fights. He was extremely skilled and powerful. Surely you do not think A Kou is his equal? Or that of Ran Bi Haku?

I don't rate Aisen that highly but I could be forgetting some things. Was his feat against Gakushou a 1v1 feat. I really buy the Kansaro hype.

Ai Sen is skilled and explosive like a mini Mou Bu without the leadership. He's also quite young still and he has demonstrated he has multiple gears to his game. In terms of raw strength, he's remarkable.

I always felt like Earl Shi was more impressive than Gaimou because of how he killed 3 Great Generals,b ut I put them as equals out of respect to Hara's stat system. Sentou'un is strong but I rate Earl very highly.

Gai Mou is one of the strongest warriors in the series, period. He will likely be the strongest enemy Shin defeats after Hou Ken. I never questioned for a second that his portrayal suggested anything other than a superiority to Earl Shi. Sen To'Un is straight up monstrous in ways that we've simply not seen before, and we haven't even seen the guy exert himself. I consider him the strongest fighter Ou Hon could presently beat.

This is my Zhao top 10 of all time as reference to show how highly I rank Keisha

I have it:
Ko Chou = Gyou'un > Gen Po = Kei Sha > Chou Ga Ryuu > Kyo En

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

No issue with the length, sorry for responding to your points out of order lol

• I don't think it's accurate to say SSJ matched up to YTW, he certainly wasn't alone when they faced, and a full accounting of context really only illuminates how supremely talented YTW is to have led her soldiers to victory on empty stomachs against close to 3:1 odds, including an 80K army at least as strong her own.

True. SSJ also made taking Atsuyo(?) a difficult task for Ousen who's sieging skills have been hyped up. Granted he was following Riboku's instructions, but the manga has hyped up characters for being able to execute difficult orders/copy tactics before.

• Gyou'un STR 95 LDR 93 INT 90
• Kyo En STR 94 LDR 92 INT 92

Someone who was the head of an entire state should have higher leadership imo, but it looks fine to me.

• I also think you're selling Roku O Mi's generalship short. By stats alone he's a better fighter and leader than A Kou, and the evidence bears this out. ROM has decades worth of executing at the highest level of warfare under the likes of Ou Ki and Tou, and has never failed to acquit himself well on panel, despite the odds and opposition.

I disagree with him being a better fighter and leader. Akou's feat against Bananji and Gyou'un is insanely impressive, two characters who directly scale to Kaishibou. For being a better leader, Riboku hyped up Akou by saying he could have have led a large army. That's pretty hype isn't it? Though, Mouten did say Rokuomi could possibly become a 6GG, so I'm open to being proven wrong.

I perceive the the Seika vassals to be have a lower average in leadership balances against a very average martial ability. As I view it, they are on par with Ri Boku's retinue and bona fide 6GG #1s and #2s, but still a half step or more below the 4HKs. From my view, that's not downplaying them, but perhaps I didn't communicate that clearly enough.

fair. I think i'll change my scaling to have Kansaro as Heavenly King level and the others lower.

Buddha gave Shin one of his most difficult fights. He was extremely skilled and powerful. Surely you do not think A Kou is his equal? Or that of Ran Bi Haku?

I have nothing against Buddha being above those two. The reason I put them as equals was because of Buddha's lack of hype from outside sources if that makes sense. Tou hyped Ranbihaku by saying even Ouki and Kyou had issues, and Ranbihaku was the "sword" of a Great General, who said he believes the key to winning battles is killing the army commander. Buddha being above them is fair, he's insanely versatile compared to most glaive wielding brutes in Kingdom.

Gai Mou is one of the strongest warriors in the series, period. He will likely be the strongest enemy Shin defeats after Hou Ken. I never questioned for a second that his portrayal suggested anything other than a superiority to Earl Shi. Sen To'Un is straight up monstrous in ways that we've simply not seen before, and we haven't even see the guy exert himself. I consider him the strongest fighter Ou Hon could presently beat.

I understand why you'd think that. Gaimou's weight was literally said to be comparable to Renpa's.

But take some of Earl Shi's feats/hype into account:
Strongest Spear Wielder in Wei history. I believe he's the sole character in Kingdom's almost 800 chapters that's been said to be the strongest weapon user in a states history.

Killed 3 Great Generals in a single conflict. An absolutely insane achievement, even taking into account those three probably weren't comparable to Qin's Six.

Remember how helpless Bananji was against Ouhon's technique? Against Earl Shi, most glaive users would be checkmated.

Of course, Gaimou is still alive so future feats can prove me wrong.

Ko Chou = Gyou'un > Gen Po = Kei Sha > Chou Ga Ryuu > Kyo En

Isn't Keisha>Kochou confirmed? Keisha was said to be the closest to Zhao Heaven seat, and that should definitely include the veteran Kochou who based off appearances has been active since the era of Renpa and the others. I'd put Kyou'En>CGR but I have no issues.

 

[Rumble]

True. SSJ also made taking Atsuyo(?) a difficult task for Ousen who's sieging skills have been hyped up. Granted he was following Riboku's instructions, but the manga has hyped up characters for being able to execute difficult orders/copy tactics before.

There's also really no defense for besieging a castle held by soldiers willing and committed to dying to the last man to deal Qin as much damage as possible, even if it means throwing themselves off the battlements.

Someone who was the head of an entire state should have higher leadership imo, but it looks fine to me.

I don't recall Kyo En being the leader of his state's military. I thought he was just mentioned have been a prince or something.

Nevertheless, I don't think Kyo En has the personality type that lends itself to being more than a decided tier or two below 6GG level in leadership.

Gyou'un is evidently a great leader of men and his Instincts are also reflected in his LDR ability by way of the tactical advantages.

fair. I think i'll change my scaling to have Kansaro as Heavenly King level and the others lower.

That's where I have him in my scale:

#4 A Kou / Kai Shi Bou / Kan Saro / Rin Ko / Roku O Mi / Ryuu Koku / Shun Sui Ju

I certainly consider Kan Saro to be 4HK level, and the same goes for quite a few others, even if I don't think their respective groups hit the same average skill level.

Ou Ki (Tou) and RSJ (Gyou'un and CGR) may have had one or two vassals on par or better, but majority their respective vassals would be decidedly below the mark.

I have nothing against Buddha being above those two. The reason I put them as equals was because of Buddha's lack of hype from outside sources if that makes sense. Tou hyped Ranbihaku by saying even Ouki and Kyou had issues, and Ranbihaku was the "sword" of a Great General, who said he believes the key to winning battles is killing the army commander. Buddha being above them is fair, he's insanely versatile compared to most glaive wielding brutes in Kingdom.

I understand the reasoning, but I personally put little to no stock in hype by reputation for a number of reasons that could justify a thread of its own.

I'll say this though, it makes sense he didn't have much of a reputation if you consider names can fade fast and Ko Chou was stuck in the capitol as its Guardian Deity for many years after his rampages in Yan. If a man of Shi Ba Shou's stature and talents can become a sleeping tiger unheard of, it could happen to anyone.

Ou Ki alluded to it before he passed. Ri Boku was the man for him, who seemingly emerged from nowhere to best him in battle.

As for Buddha - his fight with Shin took about as many chapters as the final showdown with Hou Ken. He showed speed, strength, agility and technique that gave Shin a lot of trouble. Examining their fight in the entirety of its context should lead to no other conclusion that the #1 option of the Ko Chou Army was an extremely formidable foe far beyond comparison to A Kou.

Shin is at the level where he can body just about anyone. A Kou doesn't stand a ghost of chance against him. Shin would outright overpower and end Ran Bi Haku. Sen To'Un would have no joy either and would get dealt with in a comfortable win. Man'U would put up a good fight for a time, but Shin is the overwhelmingly favourite to beat him, and I think Gai Mou exacts an extremely difficult win but loses nevertheless. I say this all to say, that Buddha gave someone as powerful as Shin so much trouble, he warrants more consideration for their martial abilities.

I understand why you'd think that. Gaimou's weight was literally said to be comparable to Renpa's.

But take some of Earl Shi's feats/hype into account:
Strongest Spear Wielder in Wei history. I believe he's the sole character in Kingdom's almost 800 chapters that's been said to be the strongest weapon user in a states history.

Killed 3 Great Generals in a single conflict. An absolutely insane achievement, even taking into account those three probably weren't comparable to Qin's Six.

Remember how helpless Bananji was against Ouhon's technique? Against Earl Shi, most glaive users would be checkmated.

Of course, Gaimou is still alive so future feats can prove me wrong.

I am of the opinion we only got to see a ghost of Earl Shi, a shell of his true self. However that also goes for Gai Mou.

It's not that I discount the fact Earl Shi killed the other 3 WFDs, it's just that I couch that in the context of the narrative motive, and, more importantly, in the fact his dude was a Great General of a major state in his early 20s. One that survived being thrown to wolves time and again and rose to become the greatest spear in China. I buy into the Earl Shi hype 1000%, I believe he was a talent level equivalent to the Q3/Kan Ki, and I have his death as one of my biggest gripes with Kingdom. Hara fucked up killing him off, and I think he's mistaken in general in his neglect to arm the other major states with competitive talent and firepower for the sake of story.

In my headcanon, the Earl Shi that died to Ou Hon was nerfed. Using stats for scale:

• Prime Earl Shi STR 97 LDR 94 INT 94
• Choyou Earl Shi STR 94 LDR 90 INT 90
• Prime Gai Mou STR 99 LDR 92 INT 86
• Choyou Gai Mou STR 97 LDR 90 INT 88

imo Hara should've had Ou Hon win the rematch without killing off Earl Shi.

Isn't Keisha>Kochou confirmed? Keisha was said to be the closest to Zhao Heaven seat, and that should definitely include the veteran Kochou who based off appearances has been active since the era of Renpa and the others. I'd put Kyou'En>CGR but I have no issues.

We have so little context to go on. Was Ko Cho even on Hara's mind when he wrote that? Do we know if Kei Sha was closest because Gyou'un was semi retired and Ko Chou was forbidden from leaving his station as the "Guardian Deity" protector of the capitol?

I entirely believe and want to believe Kei Sha would eventually mature to 3GH level, but whatever was said of his abilities, I think it's fair to say he simply never demonstrated close to the ability of what one could reasonable expect of a 3GH.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

I don't recall Kyo En being the leader of his state's military. I thought he was just mentioned have been a prince or something.

You might be confusing him with the Juuko strategist who's a former king iirc. Or Gokei who was the former prince of a very small state. Kyou'En was either the Great General or the Head of Military for his state. Like one of the Juuko boys.

About the stuff about Buddha, I more or less agree. The fact that Buddha was Shin's last major general kill should indicate Hara's struggling to think of opponents who can seriously challenge him.

, and I think he's mistaken in general in his neglect to arm the other major states with competitive talent and firepower for the sake of story.

Yes. There should be more younger talent. Futei and Kaine are jokes. Keisha is cool but mostly has portrayal and died before he could bloom. Gouhoumei was literally introduced unable to beat Duke with 10x his number. Yoku and Rei seem legit, I have no issues with how Hara's handled them, though Yoku's feat against Tou during Coaltion is absurd.

imo Hara should've had Ou Hon win the rematch without killing off Earl Shi.

Yes, have him wound him or cripple a limb to force him to retreat.

It's sad that Hara killed off the two most interesting Wei generals(Gokei and Earl) in their first appearance.

Was Ko Cho even on Hara's mind when he wrote that?

Can't really argue against your other points regarding Kochou vs Keisha, but I think Hara at least had a general idea of Kochou at the time. Kochou is a historical figure, Hu Zhe so I think Hara at least thought of him.

Another point that favors Kochou is that he possesses a very powerful subordinate in Buddha under his command, who's leagues about Gaku'Ei and Kinmou(?)

 

[Rumble]

You might be confusing him with the Juuko strategist who's a former king iirc. Or Gokei who was the former prince of a very small state. Kyou'En was either the Great General or the Head of Military for his state. Like one of the Juuko boys.

I looked it up, apparently all was said is that he fought for another state against Ren Pa. It didn't mention his station or rank.

I do have it in my headcanon he was a prince far removed from the line of succession though.

About the stuff about Buddha, I more or less agree. The fact that Buddha was Shin's last major general kill should indicate Hara's struggling to think of opponents who can seriously challenge him.

I consider Buddha an inferior Kan Mei with a theological disposition versus a philosophical one. To scale:

• Mou Bu STR 99 LDR 94 INT 88
• Kan Mei STR 99 LDR 92 INT 92
• Shin STR 97+A LDR 92 INT 82
• Buddha STR 95 LDR 87 INT 89

Yes. There should be more younger talent. Futei and Kaine are jokes. Keisha is cool but mostly has portrayal and died before he could bloom. Gouhoumei was literally introduced unable to beat Duke with 10x his number. Yoku and Rei seem legit, I have no issues with how Hara's handled them, though Yoku's feat against Tou during Coaltion is absurd.

I hold Fu Tei and Kaine in higher regard than most, and I think Zhao could actually have been fine had Hara been more generous with talent levels.

The biggest issue for me is really the lack of known generals in the other states, Wei especially. I wish Go Hou Mei was at the head of a new generation of Fire Dragons that included the still young Earl Shi and Gai Mou as the only old members and 4 new GG level generals. I wish Han and Yan had more known generals of fearsome repute. It bothers me how little we know Chu's military as well and how little Hara has used Kou Yoku and Haku Rei.

Yes, have him wound him or cripple a limb to force him to retreat.

It's sad that Hara killed off the two most interesting Wei generals(Gokei and Earl) in their first appearance.

It's a very annoying habit of Hara to kill off characters like one-and-dones. I don't know why he's so eager to do it, or why he disappears some never to be seen again, without explanation.

Can't really argue against your other points regarding Kochou vs Keisha, but I think Hara at least had a general idea of Kochou at the time. Kochou is a historical figure, Hu Zhe so I think Hara at least thought of him.

Another point that favors Kochou is that he possesses a very powerful subordinate in Buddha under his command, who's leagues about Gaku'Ei and Kinmou(?)

Very good points.

I also wish Kei Sha had better subs, for sure.