General & Others What’s more important Fluidity or Artwork?
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Since when?
Luffy vs Lucci was never that well animated. It had a few "okay" episodes and two pretty good ones(animation wise, namely episode 304 and the finale in 309, though 304 is definitely the stronger of the two), but it also had some of the worst animated episodes in the entire series(302 and 305) .
Its been surpassed a long ass time ago animation wise.
The debut of gear 4th was more consistently animated than lucci vs luffy.
Luffy vs Lucci was never that well animated. It had a few "okay" episodes and two pretty good ones(animation wise, namely episode 304 and the finale in 309, though 304 is definitely the stronger of the two), but it also had some of the worst animated episodes in the entire series(302 and 305) .
Its been surpassed a long ass time ago animation wise.
The debut of gear 4th was more consistently animated than lucci vs luffy.
He means the animation style, just look at his examples.
From East Blue to Sky Island, Water 7 to Summit war and Fishman Island to Wholecake Island saga, the animation and fighting hasn’t changed much at all because it still felt like watching One Piece,
Even the haki clashes were still the best with the small red electro effect because it was simplicity at best. Those badass scenes still gives me goosebumps
Until Wano happaned. The garbage FX effect and lightsabers that blinds the screen ruined everything.
From East Blue to Sky Island, Water 7 to Summit war and Fishman Island to Wholecake Island saga, the animation and fighting hasn’t changed much at all because it still felt like watching One Piece,
Even the haki clashes were still the best with the small red electro effect because it was simplicity at best. Those badass scenes still gives me goosebumps
Until Wano happaned. The garbage FX effect and lightsabers that blinds the screen ruined everything.
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Luffy vs Lucci >>> G4 fights >>> Wano fights
Also, that scene is literally just stylish repeat frames. Its kind of action DBZ is most famous for.
That second scene is animated by Yoshikazu Tomita. Its actually better animated than that Luffy vs Lucci scene you linked.
Your third example is Shuu Sugita's scene from 1028 and isn't comparable to the others at all in terms of the action presented, since its supposed to be a "big finisher" type attack as opposed to the back and forth you show with the other scenes. Also, that gif you linked actually cuts out large portions of that cut.
Funnily enough, it is probably still the best animated of the three scenes you linked(as much as I love Tate, the scene you linked it literal DBZ repeat frames, honestly, Tomita's scene is very cool though).
What are you waffling about? Is this in reference to episode 1062?
Most of episode 1062 was very fluid. There were definitely moments where there were some editing issues in a few spots, but it had arguably some of the most fluid animation in the series. Especially the climax, which was incredibly fluid considering the monstrous number of frames used on it.
Most of episode 1062 was very fluid. There were definitely moments where there were some editing issues in a few spots, but it had arguably some of the most fluid animation in the series. Especially the climax, which was incredibly fluid considering the monstrous number of frames used on it.
*badum tss*
You can call it DBZ but this is One Piece since Whiskey Peak at least for what I remember. Zoro vs Luffy was the first fight like this. Very few moments of One Piece can have this kind of animation. Zoro vs Luffy. Luffy hitting the wall to hit Enel. Zoro vs Lucci.
Luffy vs Katakuri could have used that animation but they didn't. That's why Luffy vs Lucci remains superior.
And Luffy vs Kaido just don't fit that back and forth fight. Of course they won't have.
But still you are losing the point. The point is that One Piece animation doesn't have auras. Doesn't have bright colors coming out of each attack. And it has fluidity.
Luffy vs Lucci. Both characters are moving, defending and attacking.
Luffy vs Katakuri. Fight stopped few seconds so Luffy could channeling his attack and then Katakuri remained stopped just blocking it.
Luffy vs Kaido. Once again the fight stop for Luffy to connect his hit and Kaido remains stop receiving it. In other moments of the fight Luffy is the one stopping so Kaido connects his attack.
Basically original One Piece is more like real time fight while Wano One Piece looks like turn based fights. Original One Piece is League of Legends battle style while Wano One Piece is Final Fantasy battle style.
Luffy vs Katakuri could have used that animation but they didn't. That's why Luffy vs Lucci remains superior.
And Luffy vs Kaido just don't fit that back and forth fight. Of course they won't have.
But still you are losing the point. The point is that One Piece animation doesn't have auras. Doesn't have bright colors coming out of each attack. And it has fluidity.
Luffy vs Lucci. Both characters are moving, defending and attacking.
Luffy vs Katakuri. Fight stopped few seconds so Luffy could channeling his attack and then Katakuri remained stopped just blocking it.
Luffy vs Kaido. Once again the fight stop for Luffy to connect his hit and Kaido remains stop receiving it. In other moments of the fight Luffy is the one stopping so Kaido connects his attack.
Basically original One Piece is more like real time fight while Wano One Piece looks like turn based fights. Original One Piece is League of Legends battle style while Wano One Piece is Final Fantasy battle style.
Wait, could you actually show footage for the scenes you are referring to?(because I have no idea whether you are referring to the original or reanimated version of these fights).
What are you even saying here?(pretty sure half of the scenes you listed here are not actually well animated scenes)
What animation?
Repeat frame animation?
Literally wtf are you talking about?
One Piece fights, very famously, especially very early on, were not fluid AT ALL.
This stuff around "fluidity" mainly developed after enies lobby.
And the creative identity of the show changes dramatically under each director.
Also, I'd like to link this video just to troll you a little.
And thats still the case in these recent fights. You are just being incredibly selective in the scenes you choose to use to demonstrate your points.
Bro, that is literally, what happened in the manga.
But also, the anime actually expanded on a scene to make it so there was even greater movement. Are you forgetting this scene? This clears all of Lucci vs Luffy.
Bro, again, this is literally how that fight plays out in the manga. People even make fun of the fact that Kaido takes a comedic number of attacks.
The anime actually tends to expand on things so that its not just hitting things with his club(I can't believe I'm saying this but in the anime he actually punches and kicks Luffy from time to time, which he didn't do in the manga).
One Piece has never had strong fights, but even the early parts of the series emphasized "big splash" attacks over nuanced choreography.
That has literally always been the case for the series.
What are you even saying here?(pretty sure half of the scenes you listed here are not actually well animated scenes)
What animation?
Repeat frame animation?
Literally wtf are you talking about?
One Piece fights, very famously, especially very early on, were not fluid AT ALL.
This stuff around "fluidity" mainly developed after enies lobby.
And the creative identity of the show changes dramatically under each director.
Also, I'd like to link this video just to troll you a little.
And thats still the case in these recent fights. You are just being incredibly selective in the scenes you choose to use to demonstrate your points.
Bro, that is literally, what happened in the manga.
But also, the anime actually expanded on a scene to make it so there was even greater movement. Are you forgetting this scene? This clears all of Lucci vs Luffy.
Bro, again, this is literally how that fight plays out in the manga. People even make fun of the fact that Kaido takes a comedic number of attacks.
The anime actually tends to expand on things so that its not just hitting things with his club(I can't believe I'm saying this but in the anime he actually punches and kicks Luffy from time to time, which he didn't do in the manga).
One Piece has never had strong fights, but even the early parts of the series emphasized "big splash" attacks over nuanced choreography.
That has literally always been the case for the series.
Remastered versions are worse than original but still very loyal to One Piece original animation style.
Just compare the AMV video of Luffy vs Lucci with this from Luffy vs Katakuri. Luffy vs Lucci has way more moviment. Only when Luffy goes Snakeman it comes close to the WHOLE fight of Luffy vs Lucci.
That's why I quotted the moments I was talking about. Luffy vs Zoro. Luffy vs Enel and Luffy vs Lucci. I know that not always it has a good fluid. Could also have quoted Luffy vs Bellamy.
And yes just compare Hakai version of Broggy and Dorry at Little Garden with Big Mom and Kaido at Wano. They had much more fluid movement back then than nowadays.
Then show me the scenes to prove otherwise. I'm doing my part and you even are showing me some scenes too but you can't find the scenes to support this argument?
As I said above this is the only part in the whole fight that comes CLOSE to Luffy vs Lucci AS A WHOLE. Small fraction of Luffy vs Katakuri comes close to Luffy vs Lucci standard during the whole fight. And still not in the same level but that's the minor issue. To say that those 2 minutes of Luffy vs Katakuri clears 1h of Luffy vs Lucci is being very dishonest. It matches 2 minutes of Luffy vs Lucci. We still have 50+ minutes of Luffy vs Luci that actually shits on Luffy vs Katakuri entire fight.
Also let's not forget that at time Luffy vs Lucci(Enies Lobby arc as a whole) was on air this is what caused One Piece manga sales to EXPLODE seeling 30mi+ that year(Manga was somewhere around Marineford or New World that's why even Fishmen Island has the highest sales manga per volume of the series).
I'm not complaining about the lack of movement. I'm complaining about characteres (not only Kaido but also Luffy) being stood and doing nothing until the other does their attack.
There is no problem Kaido not defending hits but he could attack while being attacked by Luffy. And Luffy is using his Future sight, dodging and blocking hits from Kaido.
That's the biggest lie of One Piece tards that doesn't understand a shit about One Piece or fights.
One Piece will never be DBZ but it has a BUNCH of great fights.
These scenes aren't very good for the most part.
Also, using a crappy AMV just doesn't look good.(especially when you consider the amv has intentionally sped up the footage in areas).
Zoro vs Luffy is actually one of Katsumi Ishizuka's earliesst ventures on the series, and while it demonstrates his characteristically sharp art style fantastically, its not particularly animated at all.
That scene from the fight vs Enel was decent, and animated by Masahiro Shimanuki. His animation on One Piece is characterized by the animatronic and stiff way he tends to animate characters, but even nowadays, his work can have some nice smears as well decent looking old school effects.
In saying that, we've had tons and tons of better animated gattling attacks even just in Wano.
This is the most obvious example that comes to mind.
Luffy vs Lucci has like 2 solid episodes(304 and 309, with 304 in particular being good), and one decent filler scene in 298(animated or at least corrected by Katsumi Ishizuka). The rest is very stiff. The storyboard has ambition with the camera movement but the characters don't move with a sense of natural weight, instead being very robotic in their movements throughout most of the fight, and relying on nice art(when there was nice art), and impactful. Case in point, this video, which I believe was animated by Kenji Yokoyama if I'm not missing my guess.
Kenji Yokoyama is not a great action animator, though his contributions to the series are invaluable. Its serviceable, but nothing sticks out positively about his animation.
Also this was mainly not good.
Luffy's 3rd Gear Pistol Axe Whip 1st Time [HD] One Piece Ep305 - YouTube
Bruh, wtf are you talking about?
Luffy vs Katakuri before Snakeman had plenty of solid and even great action that was way more impressive than Luffy vs Lucci.
Luffy vs Lucci only had a handful of episodes were the animation wasn't totally robotic, while Luffy vs Katakuri pretty consistently episodes or scenes there was a real sense of weight and attention paid to the movement even for gattling attacks. And I can list quite a number more examples if you really want me to.
The moments you listed weren't that fluid at all though. Luffy vs Lucci is nearly as robotic and stiff as it gets for most of the fight. Zoro vs Luffy had brief flashes of movement but was otherwise mostly just still.
The reanimation of Luffy vs Zoro in the extended version of Episode of Alabasta is just flat out much better animated than the original(sorry for the poor video quality).
And no, again, your just wrong. The destruction scene was by no means the most well animated scene ever, but its still better animated than that Dorry and Broggy attack. There is a greater sense of anticipation to Big Mum and Kaido's attack, with a little slow down and speed up being used to emphasize the weight of the swing, with a splash of impact frames being used to sell the force of the attack.
The Dorry and Broggy scene is stiff and robotic in comparison, with very little anticipatory animation and a weak follow through.
Here are a few scenes.
Luffy vs numbers full fight | one piece | wpisode 1003| 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 - YouTube
Kaido vs Big Mom | One Piece - YouTube
Kaido vs Luffy | Big Mom vs The Supernovas | One Piece Episode 1026 | Battle of the Haki begins! - YouTube
Oden vs Whitebeard | One Piece - YouTube
I could list more if you really want me to.
Get it through your head, Luffy vs Lucci overall was not a particularly well animated fight.
Luffy vs Katakuri is not the best animated fight ever, but it consistently had more and better action highlights than Luffy vs Lucci.
Pretty sure it was Marineford in the manga that caused manga sales to explode. The show had to get moved during Enies Lobby and Impel Down because it almost got cancelled due to significant complaints being made to animators over animation quality.
Again, this is also a problem in the manga as well. Most of the fight in the manga is just them exchanging blows with each other. If anything, the anime has done a lot to make Luffy and Kaido both more agile in their fighting stlye.(it also doesn't help that Kaido is a big "F U" dragon half the time, so you can't do too much creatively fighting him besides landing tons of attacks).
Again, the one piece anime's action is still highly reliant on the manga, and even in the Luffy vs Lucci you linked, that was entirely based off Oda's manga choreography.
One Piece has fun fights, but the fights were never impressive for the action or choreography. Other shows have way more compelling raw action. One Piece's action tends to depend on the story and emotions riding on that fight.
Also, using a crappy AMV just doesn't look good.(especially when you consider the amv has intentionally sped up the footage in areas).
Zoro vs Luffy is actually one of Katsumi Ishizuka's earliesst ventures on the series, and while it demonstrates his characteristically sharp art style fantastically, its not particularly animated at all.
That scene from the fight vs Enel was decent, and animated by Masahiro Shimanuki. His animation on One Piece is characterized by the animatronic and stiff way he tends to animate characters, but even nowadays, his work can have some nice smears as well decent looking old school effects.
In saying that, we've had tons and tons of better animated gattling attacks even just in Wano.
This is the most obvious example that comes to mind.
Luffy vs Lucci has like 2 solid episodes(304 and 309, with 304 in particular being good), and one decent filler scene in 298(animated or at least corrected by Katsumi Ishizuka). The rest is very stiff. The storyboard has ambition with the camera movement but the characters don't move with a sense of natural weight, instead being very robotic in their movements throughout most of the fight, and relying on nice art(when there was nice art), and impactful. Case in point, this video, which I believe was animated by Kenji Yokoyama if I'm not missing my guess.
Also this was mainly not good.
Luffy's 3rd Gear Pistol Axe Whip 1st Time [HD] One Piece Ep305 - YouTube
Bruh, wtf are you talking about?
Luffy vs Katakuri before Snakeman had plenty of solid and even great action that was way more impressive than Luffy vs Lucci.
Luffy vs Lucci only had a handful of episodes were the animation wasn't totally robotic, while Luffy vs Katakuri pretty consistently episodes or scenes there was a real sense of weight and attention paid to the movement even for gattling attacks. And I can list quite a number more examples if you really want me to.
The moments you listed weren't that fluid at all though. Luffy vs Lucci is nearly as robotic and stiff as it gets for most of the fight. Zoro vs Luffy had brief flashes of movement but was otherwise mostly just still.
The reanimation of Luffy vs Zoro in the extended version of Episode of Alabasta is just flat out much better animated than the original(sorry for the poor video quality).
And no, again, your just wrong. The destruction scene was by no means the most well animated scene ever, but its still better animated than that Dorry and Broggy attack. There is a greater sense of anticipation to Big Mum and Kaido's attack, with a little slow down and speed up being used to emphasize the weight of the swing, with a splash of impact frames being used to sell the force of the attack.
The Dorry and Broggy scene is stiff and robotic in comparison, with very little anticipatory animation and a weak follow through.
Here are a few scenes.
Luffy vs numbers full fight | one piece | wpisode 1003| 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 - YouTube
Kaido vs Big Mom | One Piece - YouTube
Kaido vs Luffy | Big Mom vs The Supernovas | One Piece Episode 1026 | Battle of the Haki begins! - YouTube
Oden vs Whitebeard | One Piece - YouTube
I could list more if you really want me to.
Get it through your head, Luffy vs Lucci overall was not a particularly well animated fight.
Luffy vs Katakuri is not the best animated fight ever, but it consistently had more and better action highlights than Luffy vs Lucci.
Pretty sure it was Marineford in the manga that caused manga sales to explode. The show had to get moved during Enies Lobby and Impel Down because it almost got cancelled due to significant complaints being made to animators over animation quality.
Again, this is also a problem in the manga as well. Most of the fight in the manga is just them exchanging blows with each other. If anything, the anime has done a lot to make Luffy and Kaido both more agile in their fighting stlye.(it also doesn't help that Kaido is a big "F U" dragon half the time, so you can't do too much creatively fighting him besides landing tons of attacks).
Again, the one piece anime's action is still highly reliant on the manga, and even in the Luffy vs Lucci you linked, that was entirely based off Oda's manga choreography.
One Piece has fun fights, but the fights were never impressive for the action or choreography. Other shows have way more compelling raw action. One Piece's action tends to depend on the story and emotions riding on that fight.
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In my opinion, Luffy vs Katakuri was the best fight in One Piece. Both in anime and manga, and I say to you: with there will be no better fight in anime. Zoro vs King was very good with King's new moves, but the light show and cutscenes made the choreography a lot worse. After having reviewed Zoro vs King several times, I am disappointed with the choreography and fluidity.
At no point in the anime was there a beautiful choreography showing them attacking and defending with their swords in third person, as in Zoro vs Kaku.
At no point in the anime was there a beautiful choreography showing them attacking and defending with their swords in third person, as in Zoro vs Kaku.
You are being very stubborn.
Look at that Wano video you showed. Is just like what I said. Luffy is stand still. Don't even try to dodge or block Boro Breath. Then Kaido is the one standing still doing the same againt G4 Gattling Gun. And the animation was horrible. Bunch of colored scratches on the screen.
Those are way better
And here an example of how they made the fight better
The first video didn't loaded for me but the second it is absolutely ridiculous how Katakuri is holding the spear and pacing to stab down on Luffy. This is shit animation compared to Luffy vs Lucci dude.
Dude hahahaha.
Big Mom and Kaido just had brighter aura on them compared to Broggy and Dorry(which was also bad). They swing way less for their attack than Broggy and Dorry did. And we can't see anything coming out from their weapons. We just saw a big bright and colorful point that was created out of nowhere in front of them. With Broggy and Dorry we actually see the power coming out from their weapons and travelling all the way to that Sea King/Fish. Big Mom and Kaido are the ones looking like robots.
Dude. Look at Kaido vs Luffy. You can't even see the attacks connecting. Is just bright/color explosions. This is ridiculous. And the same about the others links you put here.
I agree that those scenes from Zoro vs King looks cool. Haven't saw those. Although I can still critique one thing or another it was really well animated. But the rest was pure garbage.
So in your mind Kimetsu no Yaiba anime has nothing to do with the suddenly explosion on it's manga sales? Same thing about Jujutsu no Kaisen and now Chainsaw Man?
Chainsaw Man sold 7 million copies 3 months after anime was released
If that was true than One Piece would have hit way before Enies Lobby. The exact arc where fights became the coolest because of power ups. Speacially Luffy.
Look at that Wano video you showed. Is just like what I said. Luffy is stand still. Don't even try to dodge or block Boro Breath. Then Kaido is the one standing still doing the same againt G4 Gattling Gun. And the animation was horrible. Bunch of colored scratches on the screen.
Those are way better
And here an example of how they made the fight better
The first video didn't loaded for me but the second it is absolutely ridiculous how Katakuri is holding the spear and pacing to stab down on Luffy. This is shit animation compared to Luffy vs Lucci dude.
Dude hahahaha.
Big Mom and Kaido just had brighter aura on them compared to Broggy and Dorry(which was also bad). They swing way less for their attack than Broggy and Dorry did. And we can't see anything coming out from their weapons. We just saw a big bright and colorful point that was created out of nowhere in front of them. With Broggy and Dorry we actually see the power coming out from their weapons and travelling all the way to that Sea King/Fish. Big Mom and Kaido are the ones looking like robots.
Dude. Look at Kaido vs Luffy. You can't even see the attacks connecting. Is just bright/color explosions. This is ridiculous. And the same about the others links you put here.
I agree that those scenes from Zoro vs King looks cool. Haven't saw those. Although I can still critique one thing or another it was really well animated. But the rest was pure garbage.
So in your mind Kimetsu no Yaiba anime has nothing to do with the suddenly explosion on it's manga sales? Same thing about Jujutsu no Kaisen and now Chainsaw Man?
Chainsaw Man sold 7 million copies 3 months after anime was released
If that was true than One Piece would have hit way before Enies Lobby. The exact arc where fights became the coolest because of power ups. Speacially Luffy.