Character Discussion What is Oda actually trying to say with Harald’s story?
- Thread starter ImmaIvanoM
- Start date
1. media narrative & propaganda is powerful and dangerous, it can make the world turn against you, and also it can also make you self destruct.
2. total submission & being weak wont give u peace, it only create oppression and more chaos. there's a famous military phrase "Si vis pacem, para bellum" is a Latin phrase meaning "If you want peace, prepare for war". It suggests that a state of peace can only be maintained through a strong defense and a readiness for conflict. A nation must remain vigilant and prepared, even during peacetime, to defend itself against potential aggressors.
2. total submission & being weak wont give u peace, it only create oppression and more chaos. there's a famous military phrase "Si vis pacem, para bellum" is a Latin phrase meaning "If you want peace, prepare for war". It suggests that a state of peace can only be maintained through a strong defense and a readiness for conflict. A nation must remain vigilant and prepared, even during peacetime, to defend itself against potential aggressors.
But his country has been fine for 800 years.
Imu himself says that HE IS THE ONE that’s lucky that Harald is such a bitch.
Like Imu himself is saying he lucked out with Harald.
Elbaf has been fine. Harald himself has never said that he is doing any of this because he feats that Elbaf is in danger if he doesn’t do it
Imu himself says that HE IS THE ONE that’s lucky that Harald is such a bitch.
Like Imu himself is saying he lucked out with Harald.
Elbaf has been fine. Harald himself has never said that he is doing any of this because he feats that Elbaf is in danger if he doesn’t do it
Xebec stood for fighting the current rulers, Harald for subordination.
Both failed, both choices are wrong. The answer is a new system where the WG doesn't exist. Neither of the two was capable of achieving this because they neither saw this possibility nor was the time ripe yet.
Nevertheless, both Harald and Xebec influenced the future through the new generations that come after them. Without their actions in the past the world government will never fall.
Moral of the story: actions create ripple effects, often without the person's knowledge.
God Valley wasn't what triggered Harald's change of heart
Both failed, both choices are wrong. The answer is a new system where the WG doesn't exist. Neither of the two was capable of achieving this because they neither saw this possibility nor was the time ripe yet.
Nevertheless, both Harald and Xebec influenced the future through the new generations that come after them. Without their actions in the past the world government will never fall.
Moral of the story: actions create ripple effects, often without the person's knowledge.
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God Valley wasn't what triggered Harald's change of heart
Afterbsetting sail Harald learned more about the world and decided he wants to form peaceful relationships with other nations.
Then he became aware of the existence of the WG and their grip on nearly every nation on earth.
He realized his plan of peaceful relations is doomed to fail as long as Elbaf is excluded from the WG.
Xebec went the opposite route and wanted to become the WG's new king.
Neither approach would have led to peace. With Xebec as the new Imu the world would still be ruled by a single absolutist government with an iron grip.
Harald himself had no good options. Ignoring the wg's influence he might have tried establishing peaceful relations as.much as he wanted, eventually the WG would've gotten rid of him and taken advantage of the peaceful mindset of Elbaf's new generation.
Directly fighting the WG would have led nowhere, as shown by xebec's defeat.
Maintaining the status quo would have meant the giants of Elbaf are still feared by the entire world and lived a life of constant violence.
Harald had forgotten where Elbaf's hostility towards the rest of the world stemming from the events of the void century, forcing them ,like many other countries, to isolated in order to protect themselves against the WG.
Then he became aware of the existence of the WG and their grip on nearly every nation on earth.
He realized his plan of peaceful relations is doomed to fail as long as Elbaf is excluded from the WG.
Xebec went the opposite route and wanted to become the WG's new king.
Neither approach would have led to peace. With Xebec as the new Imu the world would still be ruled by a single absolutist government with an iron grip.
Harald himself had no good options. Ignoring the wg's influence he might have tried establishing peaceful relations as.much as he wanted, eventually the WG would've gotten rid of him and taken advantage of the peaceful mindset of Elbaf's new generation.
Directly fighting the WG would have led nowhere, as shown by xebec's defeat.
Maintaining the status quo would have meant the giants of Elbaf are still feared by the entire world and lived a life of constant violence.
Harald had forgotten where Elbaf's hostility towards the rest of the world stemming from the events of the void century, forcing them ,like many other countries, to isolated in order to protect themselves against the WG.
WG can take it anyway, it doesn't matter what he does, it's over, WG is too OP. Imu killed Rocks, he fought all the Empereres and took no damage.
what Harald did, is that he bought time for Elbaf by surrendering himself to them, until the chosen one (a.k.a Luffy) arrived to save them with his plot armor. Look what's going on in Elbaf right now, Imu is there, and nobady can do shit to stop him, so Luffy is gonna save them. if Harald didn't surrender back then, then Imu would have attacked earlier, and there would be no Luffy with his plot armor to protect them. in the end, he made the right decision and played the LONG GAME, unlike Rocks who rushed things and paid the price for it, but his son Blackbeard playes the long game too, just like Harald, becouse he learnd from his father's mistakes.
what Harald did, is that he bought time for Elbaf by surrendering himself to them, until the chosen one (a.k.a Luffy) arrived to save them with his plot armor. Look what's going on in Elbaf right now, Imu is there, and nobady can do shit to stop him, so Luffy is gonna save them. if Harald didn't surrender back then, then Imu would have attacked earlier, and there would be no Luffy with his plot armor to protect them. in the end, he made the right decision and played the LONG GAME, unlike Rocks who rushed things and paid the price for it, but his son Blackbeard playes the long game too, just like Harald, becouse he learnd from his father's mistakes.
Can they? Imu seemed to think he lucked out with Harald being such a bitch. He wouldn’t consider himself lucky if this is a thing he could do so casually
Harald started this mission like 100 years ago in the timeline. He started it because ida slapped him and then he realized how much everyone hates giants
he didn’t start doing this because 100 years ago he suddenly came to the realization that the WG can destroy Elbaf
Harald started this mission like 100 years ago in the timeline. He started it because ida slapped him and then he realized how much everyone hates giants
he didn’t start doing this because 100 years ago he suddenly came to the realization that the WG can destroy Elbaf
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It's also makes no sense that the WG wants nothing to do with Elbaf to the point where Harald has to prostrate himself before the Marines just to get their attention, despite that all the WG has been wanting from the start is an army of giants. That, and a big plot point right now outside the flashback is that they really want Elbaf to be a part of the WG... that and since Punk Hazard, they wanted giant DNA to make giant soldiers. And yet here comes Harald, who has for decades been asking them to let his country join and yet they reject him at every single opportunity he gives them even when he grovels at their feet.
Like make up your damn mind, Oda. Does the WG want his country and DNA or not?
Like make up your damn mind, Oda. Does the WG want his country and DNA or not?
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WG can take it anyway, it doesn't matter what he does, it's over, WG is too OP. Imu killed Rocks, he fought all the Empereres and took no damage.
what Harald did, is that he bought time for Elbaf by surrendering himself to them, until the chosen one (a.k.a Luffy) arrived to save them with his plot armor. Look what's going on in Elbaf right now, Imu is there, and nobady can do shit to stop him, so Luffy is gonna save them. if Harald didn't surrender back then, then Imu would have attacked earlier, and there would be no Luffy with his plot armor to protect them. in the end, he made the right decision and played the LONG GAME, unlike Rocks who rushed things and paid the price for it, but his son Blackbeard playes the long game too, just like Harald, becouse he learnd from his father's mistakes.
what Harald did, is that he bought time for Elbaf by surrendering himself to them, until the chosen one (a.k.a Luffy) arrived to save them with his plot armor. Look what's going on in Elbaf right now, Imu is there, and nobady can do shit to stop him, so Luffy is gonna save them. if Harald didn't surrender back then, then Imu would have attacked earlier, and there would be no Luffy with his plot armor to protect them. in the end, he made the right decision and played the LONG GAME, unlike Rocks who rushed things and paid the price for it, but his son Blackbeard playes the long game too, just like Harald, becouse he learnd from his father's mistakes.
Now you're entering into uncharted territories, where you assume there are limitations on Imu's powers, and I'm sure there are, but we don't know the extent of their limitations. Right now it's useless to talk about things that haven't been revealed yet, but what we know 100%, is that Imu used an ancient weapon to destroy Lulusia, he fought all the Emperors and took no damage, he has 5 Goroseis that are all top tier level characters, the holy knights with Shamrock in it, plus the Marines with Million men–there's no way Harald could have done anything against them. But the most striking part, is that Rocks himself underestimated Imu's strength, he had no idea about Demi Reversi, and the only thing he could do is to cry and beg Roger and Garp to stop him. Harald did the right thing no matter how much you try to find flows in his actions, he was against something he couldn't comprehend, whose strength had almost no limits.
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It reminds me of a famous real life political clip.
Politician A: It's better to throw away all the most advanced weapons, the weapons of mass destruction. With no one being threatened we can instead focus on trade, peace and democratic resolutions.
Politician B: Yeah... That is what Politician C said as well. Remember what happened to him in the end without the weapons as a deterrent? He got hanged.
--
Or as Doflamingo (I think it was, or was it Kaido?) would put it: The weak can not even chose how to die.
Green Bull said it as well regarding Wano: Without (the weapon of deterrence) Kaido the WG would have invaded Wano long ago.
Politician A: It's better to throw away all the most advanced weapons, the weapons of mass destruction. With no one being threatened we can instead focus on trade, peace and democratic resolutions.
Politician B: Yeah... That is what Politician C said as well. Remember what happened to him in the end without the weapons as a deterrent? He got hanged.
--
Or as Doflamingo (I think it was, or was it Kaido?) would put it: The weak can not even chose how to die.
Green Bull said it as well regarding Wano: Without (the weapon of deterrence) Kaido the WG would have invaded Wano long ago.
My point is that “elbaf’s safety” has not been a factor in Harald’s reasoning to do anything g he has been doing
Harald himself hasnt said “I must do this so that Elbaf isnt annihilated” and even in the other side, Imu isn’t going around bragging about how easily he can just go in and stomp the giants and take over the island
Harald himself hasnt said “I must do this so that Elbaf isnt annihilated” and even in the other side, Imu isn’t going around bragging about how easily he can just go in and stomp the giants and take over the island
I think the lesson Oda is more or less going for with Harald is:
"Doing the "responsible" thing, is not always the same as doing the "right" thing."
This entire time, Harald has been trying to be a responsible king. He's been careful with who he chooses to publicly associate with. He's been trying to change the image of the Giants worldwide. He's been fostering trade. He's been trying to help his people learn to be more peaceful, in order to get along with others better. Policing any rogue Giants is even being pretty responsible.
But, as a consequence of that, he's had to sacrifice his own desires. He's had to completely change his own personality. He can't choose his own wife. He doesn't have time to spend with ANY of his children. He can't even help out a friend, when they really need it. Because he's so busy being "responsible".
As with a lot of One Piece, the lesson is sort of that "greed is good". As long as it's the right kind of greed. As long as you're "greedy" for the right things, it's not a bad thing to give in to your desires. It's healthy, even. Luffy is definitely greedy. All the Strawhats are greedy in their own ways. Suppressing your desires, for the good of the group, is the real problem.
Remember, this is a Japanese series. And so, it's going to deal with more Japanese-related social issues. And in Japan, you're taught at a young age to think more about the welfare of the group, rather than your own personal welfare. It's why there's such a big emphasis on family. Or working long hours at your job, because it's for the good of the larger corporation. Oda is basically saying that it's okay to put your own dreams and desires ahead of the group's desires.
In order to APPEAR good, Harald is having to ignore the actual bad that the World Government is committing. Harald is putting his public appearance ahead of actually doing what he knows is the right thing. He's being a responsible king for his people...but sacrificing the part of himself that knows he could be doing greater good for others. He's concerned more with APPEARANCE, rather than ACTIONS.
And I think that's the part that Oda has a problem with. If Luffy is any indication, Oda seems like a "actions speak louder than words" kind of guy. Choosing to maintain your public appearance of decency, while allowing bad things to happen because of it, may be something that Oda is criticizing with Harald.
There's also another interpretation of this that I'm kind of still mulling over.
It occurs to me that Oda might be critiquing different "eras" of Japanese history with each of the post-timeskip islands. Each one of the islands being a different time in the history of Japan. Maybe.
For example, let's take Wano. That would clearly be back when Japan isolated itself from the rest of the world, and refused any foreigners to come into the country. Sakoku.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
Punk Hazard would be the immediate end of World War 2. After the bombs were dropped. The land is a disaster area, and there's significant effects on the children who are in the area, changing how they grow.
https://www.rerf.or.jp/en/programs/roadmap_e/health_effects-en/geneefx-en/birthdef/
Egghead would be when Japan was the technological center of the world. A lot of factories and new technology was built in Japan in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. So, in a lot of ways Japan became one of the most technologically innovative countries in the world.
https://japan-dev.com/blog/the-history-and-future-of-technological-innovation-in-japan
Dressrosa would be the era of tourism. When Japan was maybe creating "artificial experiences" for tourists to give them a idealized, sanitized view of the country. Keeping tourists from seeing any problems, like homeless people or crime, and keeping them to certain "tourist friendly" areas.
https://www.travelandtourworld.com/...-a-more-authentic-experience/#google_vignette
Elbaph, then, would be the period of Occupation immediately after World War 2 where Japan basically surrendered all right to have it's own military and allowed US forces to build bases on their land. It's a time when they tried to become complete pacifists. Which is still more or less in effect to this day.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/japan-reconstruction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Constitution_of_Japan
This isn't a perfect theory. I'm not quite sure how arcs like Whole Cake or Zou would fit in. (Zou could be Japan's ancient past when things were more "wild". And Whole Cake could be commentary on the rise of the "cute-ification" of Japan with the obsession with kawaii and moe culture. But, that feels a little too loose for me to be happy with it.) But, I feel like it works well enough to mention it. I think it is possible that Oda is using each of these arcs to showcase different aspects or periods of Japanese history, and how things go wrong in each of them. And if this is the case, Oda's kind of bouncing around back and forth through history with each island. With no real pattern or reason for any island to be based on the time period it is.
So, Elbaph would just be less about the lesson he's trying to communicate with Harald, and more about showcasing the history of the "Occupation Era" of Japanese history. Harald isn't really supposed to be about a particular lesson. More a reflection of the actual thought processes and reasons why that era of history happened in that way. It's supposed to be more reflective and less moralizing.
...Or maybe not. I'll admit, I might be overthinking it. As I do. But, I think it's a interesting idea.
The first idea is probably more what Oda's going for. But, I'm still mulling over this second idea. There may or may not be merit to it.
"Doing the "responsible" thing, is not always the same as doing the "right" thing."
This entire time, Harald has been trying to be a responsible king. He's been careful with who he chooses to publicly associate with. He's been trying to change the image of the Giants worldwide. He's been fostering trade. He's been trying to help his people learn to be more peaceful, in order to get along with others better. Policing any rogue Giants is even being pretty responsible.
But, as a consequence of that, he's had to sacrifice his own desires. He's had to completely change his own personality. He can't choose his own wife. He doesn't have time to spend with ANY of his children. He can't even help out a friend, when they really need it. Because he's so busy being "responsible".
As with a lot of One Piece, the lesson is sort of that "greed is good". As long as it's the right kind of greed. As long as you're "greedy" for the right things, it's not a bad thing to give in to your desires. It's healthy, even. Luffy is definitely greedy. All the Strawhats are greedy in their own ways. Suppressing your desires, for the good of the group, is the real problem.
Remember, this is a Japanese series. And so, it's going to deal with more Japanese-related social issues. And in Japan, you're taught at a young age to think more about the welfare of the group, rather than your own personal welfare. It's why there's such a big emphasis on family. Or working long hours at your job, because it's for the good of the larger corporation. Oda is basically saying that it's okay to put your own dreams and desires ahead of the group's desires.
In order to APPEAR good, Harald is having to ignore the actual bad that the World Government is committing. Harald is putting his public appearance ahead of actually doing what he knows is the right thing. He's being a responsible king for his people...but sacrificing the part of himself that knows he could be doing greater good for others. He's concerned more with APPEARANCE, rather than ACTIONS.
And I think that's the part that Oda has a problem with. If Luffy is any indication, Oda seems like a "actions speak louder than words" kind of guy. Choosing to maintain your public appearance of decency, while allowing bad things to happen because of it, may be something that Oda is criticizing with Harald.
There's also another interpretation of this that I'm kind of still mulling over.
It occurs to me that Oda might be critiquing different "eras" of Japanese history with each of the post-timeskip islands. Each one of the islands being a different time in the history of Japan. Maybe.
For example, let's take Wano. That would clearly be back when Japan isolated itself from the rest of the world, and refused any foreigners to come into the country. Sakoku.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
Punk Hazard would be the immediate end of World War 2. After the bombs were dropped. The land is a disaster area, and there's significant effects on the children who are in the area, changing how they grow.
https://www.rerf.or.jp/en/programs/roadmap_e/health_effects-en/geneefx-en/birthdef/
Egghead would be when Japan was the technological center of the world. A lot of factories and new technology was built in Japan in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. So, in a lot of ways Japan became one of the most technologically innovative countries in the world.
https://japan-dev.com/blog/the-history-and-future-of-technological-innovation-in-japan
Dressrosa would be the era of tourism. When Japan was maybe creating "artificial experiences" for tourists to give them a idealized, sanitized view of the country. Keeping tourists from seeing any problems, like homeless people or crime, and keeping them to certain "tourist friendly" areas.
https://www.travelandtourworld.com/...-a-more-authentic-experience/#google_vignette
Elbaph, then, would be the period of Occupation immediately after World War 2 where Japan basically surrendered all right to have it's own military and allowed US forces to build bases on their land. It's a time when they tried to become complete pacifists. Which is still more or less in effect to this day.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/japan-reconstruction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Constitution_of_Japan
This isn't a perfect theory. I'm not quite sure how arcs like Whole Cake or Zou would fit in. (Zou could be Japan's ancient past when things were more "wild". And Whole Cake could be commentary on the rise of the "cute-ification" of Japan with the obsession with kawaii and moe culture. But, that feels a little too loose for me to be happy with it.) But, I feel like it works well enough to mention it. I think it is possible that Oda is using each of these arcs to showcase different aspects or periods of Japanese history, and how things go wrong in each of them. And if this is the case, Oda's kind of bouncing around back and forth through history with each island. With no real pattern or reason for any island to be based on the time period it is.
So, Elbaph would just be less about the lesson he's trying to communicate with Harald, and more about showcasing the history of the "Occupation Era" of Japanese history. Harald isn't really supposed to be about a particular lesson. More a reflection of the actual thought processes and reasons why that era of history happened in that way. It's supposed to be more reflective and less moralizing.
...Or maybe not. I'll admit, I might be overthinking it. As I do. But, I think it's a interesting idea.
The first idea is probably more what Oda's going for. But, I'm still mulling over this second idea. There may or may not be merit to it.
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