Character Discussion What Oda emphasized on Zoro's debut, and how many of them has been changed?
- Thread starter traxex123
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H
I disagree. People goes too deep trying to justify a certain character when Oda is not that deep with them himself.
Nothing happened moment is way of Zoro to compesate his lack of strength to protect his captain from Kuma. And Sanji also showed to had that but Zoro didn't allowed Sanji to do it. Not sure the reason for that but I could think on many.
Zoro doesn't drink to excess. Nothing on manga or anime shows that. It shows he constantly drinking because he likes it and can handle. It never showed him drunk or doing stupid things or things he usually is not doing it for it. This is like saying Luffy eats meat excessively when that is pretty much the source of his power.
Zoro is not lazy and sleeps too much. He is constantly training so he has to compesate for that. He needs to be ready to fight after all he doesn't have a job inside the crew other than being a combatant(and vice-captain). Thriller Bark is one of the best examples of this. After Moriah fight ended Luffy was the first to get tired and sleep. Then everybody started to fight Kuma. After Kuma used that air explosion everybody but Zoro was out.
Zoro insults people for no reason? What? Who is he insulting? He is usually very respectfull even towards his enemies. Look at his fight with Pica. People were mocking Pica voice, even Luffy but he didn't. He may go shocked the first time he heard but that's all.
Zoro lies to others and himself? What? The only thing I can think of is his promise to Luffy about never losing again which way pushed from Oda. But that's not lying is just a promised he couldn't keep up. Not even that he didn't tried to. He can't help when he is overpowered.
He is rude, violent when he has to be. Everybody is like that sometimes. Even Nami, Chopper and Robin. A thing that Zoro never was is dishonest.
He never was. He isn't right now and will never be weaker than Luffy that already peaked.
Zoro vs Enel could easily be ended by Zoro if Oda already had a greater concept of haki. But that's irrelevant.
Nothing happened moment is way of Zoro to compesate his lack of strength to protect his captain from Kuma. And Sanji also showed to had that but Zoro didn't allowed Sanji to do it. Not sure the reason for that but I could think on many.
Zoro doesn't drink to excess. Nothing on manga or anime shows that. It shows he constantly drinking because he likes it and can handle. It never showed him drunk or doing stupid things or things he usually is not doing it for it. This is like saying Luffy eats meat excessively when that is pretty much the source of his power.
Zoro is not lazy and sleeps too much. He is constantly training so he has to compesate for that. He needs to be ready to fight after all he doesn't have a job inside the crew other than being a combatant(and vice-captain). Thriller Bark is one of the best examples of this. After Moriah fight ended Luffy was the first to get tired and sleep. Then everybody started to fight Kuma. After Kuma used that air explosion everybody but Zoro was out.
Zoro insults people for no reason? What? Who is he insulting? He is usually very respectfull even towards his enemies. Look at his fight with Pica. People were mocking Pica voice, even Luffy but he didn't. He may go shocked the first time he heard but that's all.
Zoro lies to others and himself? What? The only thing I can think of is his promise to Luffy about never losing again which way pushed from Oda. But that's not lying is just a promised he couldn't keep up. Not even that he didn't tried to. He can't help when he is overpowered.
He is rude, violent when he has to be. Everybody is like that sometimes. Even Nami, Chopper and Robin. A thing that Zoro never was is dishonest.
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He never was. He isn't right now and will never be weaker than Luffy that already peaked.
Zoro vs Enel could easily be ended by Zoro if Oda already had a greater concept of haki. But that's irrelevant.
before you read anything, i admit that zoro is a relatively good character, but in this topic i will focus more on the dark sides of him that were hidden.
5 things oda tried to tell about Zoro's appearance at the beginning
-First:
+he's weaker than luffy
+luffy easily realize the power distance of them
==>it doesn't change so far ...... checked
-The second:
+He easily gets captured when being alone and so stupid when believe in the enemy
+ get captured by fodder
+believe in gag, fodder character
===> though he is less stupid now but nobody can say is a smart guy................... checked
-Fourth
+He is a fraud, on the one hand he asked luffy for untie him, one the other hand, he said that trying to endure for one month
====> "i will never lose again" but losing countless time after that ===>still a fraud ............... checked
-The final and most important thing
Why Oda used food as a challenge for zoro at the beginning and it seemed zoro thought he could do this but he has failed to this game when asked for help and actually ate something.
=> He has always he thought he is tronger than he actually is
=> Food is represented for Sanji, zoro has always believed he is stronger than Sanji but the reality is ...............
Conclusion: nothing has changed, zoro is not a perfectly good character as many zorotard believe.
5 things oda tried to tell about Zoro's appearance at the beginning
-First:
+he's weaker than luffy
+luffy easily realize the power distance of them
==>it doesn't change so far ...... checked
-The second:
+He easily gets captured when being alone and so stupid when believe in the enemy
+ get captured by fodder
+believe in gag, fodder character
===> though he is less stupid now but nobody can say is a smart guy................... checked
-Fourth
+He is a fraud, on the one hand he asked luffy for untie him, one the other hand, he said that trying to endure for one month
====> "i will never lose again" but losing countless time after that ===>still a fraud ............... checked
-The final and most important thing
Why Oda used food as a challenge for zoro at the beginning and it seemed zoro thought he could do this but he has failed to this game when asked for help and actually ate something.
=> He has always he thought he is tronger than he actually is
=> Food is represented for Sanji, zoro has always believed he is stronger than Sanji but the reality is ...............
Conclusion: nothing has changed, zoro is not a perfectly good character as many zorotard believe.
Sometimes i forget how utterly humiliated zoro was by enel lol, that panel is brutal.
Also: zoro was, is and will always be WEAKER than luffy.
Everyone should know by now that captains are ALWAYS stronger than their underlings.
Also: zoro was, is and will always be WEAKER than luffy.
Everyone should know by now that captains are ALWAYS stronger than their underlings.
They are constantly overtaking and catching up with each other. And at the expense of the captain is always stronger, say this to mihouka, who is more expensive than "his" yonko captain and 100 times stronger and for the sake of entertainment, he is looking for a new one.
C
Zoro never catch up to luffy, he ALWAYS fought against weaker enemies and could take literally only 1 of luffy fights during the respective time arc happened.
He would lose to arlong in AP.
Lose to crocodile in alabasta,
Humiliated by enel in skypeia.
Foxy was a gag fight so i dont count it.
Would have died to lucci in EL.
Didnt do anything to moria.
Lose to magellan.
Death in marineford if he was there.
He could have won against hody jones.
Lose to doflamingo in dressrosa.
Lose to katakuri in WCI.
Lose to kaido in wano... you get the idea.
Out of every main villain luffy fought, only hody would have been defeated and thats the normal formula because captains who arent gags(buggy) are ALWAYS stronger than their underlings, zoro wouldnt follow luffy if he was stronger, zoro knows his place regarding luffy, understands his inferiority and plays his role as he should.
Kaido is MILES above king, Big mom is MILES above katakuri, Whitebeard was miles above ace/oden/marco, blackbeard is MILES above whoever his first commander turns out to be, shanks is MILES above Ben beckman and luffy is MILES above zoro.
Thats how it always was, captains>>>>>>underlings, i dont even recall some captains who wasnt a running gag being weaker than any of his subordinates.
Luffy beats the guys who humiliate zoro and the rest of the crew because thats the role of the captain, he takes the STRONGEST battles while underlings deal with other underlings, similar to what law and kid did taking down a yonko while underlings were fighting among themselves.
He would lose to arlong in AP.
Lose to crocodile in alabasta,
Humiliated by enel in skypeia.
Foxy was a gag fight so i dont count it.
Would have died to lucci in EL.
Didnt do anything to moria.
Lose to magellan.
Death in marineford if he was there.
He could have won against hody jones.
Lose to doflamingo in dressrosa.
Lose to katakuri in WCI.
Lose to kaido in wano... you get the idea.
Out of every main villain luffy fought, only hody would have been defeated and thats the normal formula because captains who arent gags(buggy) are ALWAYS stronger than their underlings, zoro wouldnt follow luffy if he was stronger, zoro knows his place regarding luffy, understands his inferiority and plays his role as he should.
Kaido is MILES above king, Big mom is MILES above katakuri, Whitebeard was miles above ace/oden/marco, blackbeard is MILES above whoever his first commander turns out to be, shanks is MILES above Ben beckman and luffy is MILES above zoro.
Thats how it always was, captains>>>>>>underlings, i dont even recall some captains who wasnt a running gag being weaker than any of his subordinates.
Luffy beats the guys who humiliate zoro and the rest of the crew because thats the role of the captain, he takes the STRONGEST battles while underlings deal with other underlings, similar to what law and kid did taking down a yonko while underlings were fighting among themselves.
And now let's take a closer look at Luffy's "victories" and compare it with Zoro.
1 Arlong. Zoro was literally at the death of with one blade at the time of the fight with arlong. A healthy Zoro had every chance to beat him
2 Luffy lost literally 3 times to crocodile and thanks to constant help and disclosure of the secret with the liquid was able to somehow defeat him. Could Zoro have won in the same conditions. of course.
3 Enel, everything is clear here. Despite 100% lightning protection and the ability to strike, Luffy was able to do it somehow in 10 chapters. incorrect comparison
4 Zoro defeated Kaku quite easily. Would Zoro have overcome the Rays ? no. luffy was defeated only thanks to a rubber body that ignored 50% of blunt blows , and it's better this way. incorrect again.
5 Moria. Shove 100 shadows into Zoro and with the huge help of the team, he would have defeated Maria. And here we see how Zoro stands on his feet having absorbed all the damage of Luffy + his own. Luffy was passed out with 50% of that damage.
6 Zoro would have defeated Doflamingo if half of the dress rose had saved him and Lo would have stabbed Doflamingo gamma with a knife.
7 Zoro defeated King who>Katakuri.
Zoro fought with the strongest revealed yc1+ he was constantly attacked by his own blade . It was a Zoro vs King+Enma fight.
8 Kaido. Lcffi was literally helped by 20+ people + resurrection + fruit of god. at the time of the 5th gear, kaido was weakened by 70% by other people. A healthy Kaido is destroying Luffy even now. We see that Zoro's opponents (whom he defeated out of boredom)They had much more serious problems on Luffy than on Zoro.
1 Hezo before drugs blocked 2 gear luffy and poisoned him at a speed unnoticeable to luffy (and he survived thanks to Magellan). Zoro destroyed hyezo x10 power with one attack. the forces under the drug.
2 Zoro destroyed Hodi underwater with one blow while Luffy was losing a battle in 2nd gear on land against hyezo in the base.
3 Monet. Monet blocked the hawk attacks of 2 gear+haki without any problems, driving luffy into a trap from which he could not get out and he ran away from her. Zoro destroyed Monet with an aura.
4 Apu. Zoro destroyed it with one blow by breaking haki tonfu. Apu, in turn, in one blow destroyed Luffy.
4 Then the fight with kaido and the roof in which Zoro is shown >> than luffy in all aspects (durability, ap) while the rubber incompetent lies unconscious 3 times, Zoro stops hakai and puts a scar on Kaido without 30 bones. at the time of the roof of Zoro > Luffy.
5 luffy, after vano, cannot scratch a child of an
lunaria without magma and haki, while Zoro destroyed a purebred adult lunaria with magma and haki.
bottom line =Luffy couldn't win not a single enemy for the entire ts post without huge help, constant losses, running away from enemies, rest. these are not victories, they are garbage. Zoro easily defeats those who cause Luffy huge problems. doflomingo, cracker, katakuri, kaido = he constantly runs away from them. help + rest+resurrections +body features against certain enemies (Enel Lucci) = the essence of Luffy's "victories". Zoro and Luffy are the same league (Although in the same situations Zoro is often shown even better than Luffy).
you can deny it, but the manga says the opposite.
And by the way, Lo and Kid didn't kill Yonko. these two clowns somehow threw her off the island. the rest = bombs and magma. Otherwise, King also defeated yonko
1 Arlong. Zoro was literally at the death of with one blade at the time of the fight with arlong. A healthy Zoro had every chance to beat him
2 Luffy lost literally 3 times to crocodile and thanks to constant help and disclosure of the secret with the liquid was able to somehow defeat him. Could Zoro have won in the same conditions. of course.
3 Enel, everything is clear here. Despite 100% lightning protection and the ability to strike, Luffy was able to do it somehow in 10 chapters. incorrect comparison
4 Zoro defeated Kaku quite easily. Would Zoro have overcome the Rays ? no. luffy was defeated only thanks to a rubber body that ignored 50% of blunt blows , and it's better this way. incorrect again.
5 Moria. Shove 100 shadows into Zoro and with the huge help of the team, he would have defeated Maria. And here we see how Zoro stands on his feet having absorbed all the damage of Luffy + his own. Luffy was passed out with 50% of that damage.
6 Zoro would have defeated Doflamingo if half of the dress rose had saved him and Lo would have stabbed Doflamingo gamma with a knife.
7 Zoro defeated King who>Katakuri.
Zoro fought with the strongest revealed yc1+ he was constantly attacked by his own blade . It was a Zoro vs King+Enma fight.
8 Kaido. Lcffi was literally helped by 20+ people + resurrection + fruit of god. at the time of the 5th gear, kaido was weakened by 70% by other people. A healthy Kaido is destroying Luffy even now. We see that Zoro's opponents (whom he defeated out of boredom)They had much more serious problems on Luffy than on Zoro.
1 Hezo before drugs blocked 2 gear luffy and poisoned him at a speed unnoticeable to luffy (and he survived thanks to Magellan). Zoro destroyed hyezo x10 power with one attack. the forces under the drug.
2 Zoro destroyed Hodi underwater with one blow while Luffy was losing a battle in 2nd gear on land against hyezo in the base.
3 Monet. Monet blocked the hawk attacks of 2 gear+haki without any problems, driving luffy into a trap from which he could not get out and he ran away from her. Zoro destroyed Monet with an aura.
4 Apu. Zoro destroyed it with one blow by breaking haki tonfu. Apu, in turn, in one blow destroyed Luffy.
4 Then the fight with kaido and the roof in which Zoro is shown >> than luffy in all aspects (durability, ap) while the rubber incompetent lies unconscious 3 times, Zoro stops hakai and puts a scar on Kaido without 30 bones. at the time of the roof of Zoro > Luffy.
5 luffy, after vano, cannot scratch a child of an
lunaria without magma and haki, while Zoro destroyed a purebred adult lunaria with magma and haki.
bottom line =Luffy couldn't win not a single enemy for the entire ts post without huge help, constant losses, running away from enemies, rest. these are not victories, they are garbage. Zoro easily defeats those who cause Luffy huge problems. doflomingo, cracker, katakuri, kaido = he constantly runs away from them. help + rest+resurrections +body features against certain enemies (Enel Lucci) = the essence of Luffy's "victories". Zoro and Luffy are the same league (Although in the same situations Zoro is often shown even better than Luffy).
you can deny it, but the manga says the opposite.
And by the way, Lo and Kid didn't kill Yonko. these two clowns somehow threw her off the island. the rest = bombs and magma. Otherwise, King also defeated yonko
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C
Lots of coulda, woulda, shoulda scenarios. Point is: zoro didn´t win a single fight against a top tier(luffy enemies), everytime he tried to step out his role and face luffy´s enemies, he was either utterly humiliated(enel) or destroyed to the point where he needed deus ex machina never before mentioned medicine to keep fighting(kaido and big mom).
Zoro took ONE ACoC attack and had all his bones broken while luffy took SEVERAL ACoC attacks while still fighting, are you sure you want to talk about durability lol?
As for help, luffy is fighting against ARC VILLAINS and this is a SHONEN SHOW, of course he gonna need a little help before winning the fight and that help is questionable because all that zoro did against kaido was a cut that kaido didn´t even care about 1 minute after lol, same goes for all villains, zoro aswell as sanji and the rest of underlings is supposed to win their fights because as i already said, they are fighting members who are MILES below their respective captains.
At that point at that story, if zoro needed help to win vs underlings, it would be a bad look for the crew.
''zoro easily defeats''
That´s why people pick on ZKK boys, you can´t come here with schizo statements like this while expecting not to be clowned. zoro NEVER beat a top tier opponent.
King gets DESTROYED by anyone with good CoO and reasonable damage output, he is literally a one trick pony, find out his flames gimmick and he is prey to be eaten.
That´s what happens when king fights people with knowledge about lunarians:
Oda himself realized that lunarians are jobbers hence why he introduced holy knights and so many other WG fighters, once/if we comeback to egghead and zoro explains the lunarian gimmick, expect to see lucci and kaku harming them aswell.
Also: Yamato, law, beckman, sabo, admirals and as i already said ANYONE WITH DECENT DAMAGE OUTPUT AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT LUNARIANS>>>>>>>>>KING.
Zoro took ONE ACoC attack and had all his bones broken while luffy took SEVERAL ACoC attacks while still fighting, are you sure you want to talk about durability lol?
As for help, luffy is fighting against ARC VILLAINS and this is a SHONEN SHOW, of course he gonna need a little help before winning the fight and that help is questionable because all that zoro did against kaido was a cut that kaido didn´t even care about 1 minute after lol, same goes for all villains, zoro aswell as sanji and the rest of underlings is supposed to win their fights because as i already said, they are fighting members who are MILES below their respective captains.
At that point at that story, if zoro needed help to win vs underlings, it would be a bad look for the crew.
''zoro easily defeats''
That´s why people pick on ZKK boys, you can´t come here with schizo statements like this while expecting not to be clowned. zoro NEVER beat a top tier opponent.
King gets DESTROYED by anyone with good CoO and reasonable damage output, he is literally a one trick pony, find out his flames gimmick and he is prey to be eaten.
That´s what happens when king fights people with knowledge about lunarians:
Oda himself realized that lunarians are jobbers hence why he introduced holy knights and so many other WG fighters, once/if we comeback to egghead and zoro explains the lunarian gimmick, expect to see lucci and kaku harming them aswell.
Also: Yamato, law, beckman, sabo, admirals and as i already said ANYONE WITH DECENT DAMAGE OUTPUT AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT LUNARIANS>>>>>>>>>KING.
Lots of coulda, woulda, shoulda scenarios. Point is: zoro didn´t win a single fight against a top tier(luffy enemies), everytime he tried to step out his role and face luffy´s enemies, he was either utterly humiliated(enel) or destroyed to the point where he needed deus ex machina never before mentioned medicine to keep fighting(kaido and big mom).
Zoro took ONE ACoC attack and had all his bones broken while luffy took SEVERAL ACoC attacks while still fighting, are you sure you want to talk about durability lol?
As for help, luffy is fighting against ARC VILLAINS and this is a SHONEN SHOW, of course he gonna need a little help before winning the fight and that help is questionable because all that zoro did against kaido was a cut that kaido didn´t even care about 1 minute after lol, same goes for all villains, zoro aswell as sanji and the rest of underlings is supposed to win their fights because as i already said, they are fighting members who are MILES below their respective captains.
At that point at that story, if zoro needed help to win vs underlings, it would be a bad look for the crew.
''zoro easily defeats''
That´s why people pick on ZKK boys, you can´t come here with schizo statements like this while expecting not to be clowned. zoro NEVER beat a top tier opponent.
King gets DESTROYED by anyone with good CoO and reasonable damage output, he is literally a one trick pony, find out his flames gimmick and he is prey to be eaten.
That´s what happens when king fights people with knowledge about lunarians:
Oda himself realized that lunarians are jobbers hence why he introduced holy knights and so many other WG fighters, once/if we comeback to egghead and zoro explains the lunarian gimmick, expect to see lucci and kaku harming them aswell.
Also: Yamato, law, beckman, sabo, admirals and as i already said ANYONE WITH DECENT DAMAGE OUTPUT AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT LUNARIANS>>>>>>>>>KING.
Zoro took ONE ACoC attack and had all his bones broken while luffy took SEVERAL ACoC attacks while still fighting, are you sure you want to talk about durability lol?
As for help, luffy is fighting against ARC VILLAINS and this is a SHONEN SHOW, of course he gonna need a little help before winning the fight and that help is questionable because all that zoro did against kaido was a cut that kaido didn´t even care about 1 minute after lol, same goes for all villains, zoro aswell as sanji and the rest of underlings is supposed to win their fights because as i already said, they are fighting members who are MILES below their respective captains.
At that point at that story, if zoro needed help to win vs underlings, it would be a bad look for the crew.
''zoro easily defeats''
That´s why people pick on ZKK boys, you can´t come here with schizo statements like this while expecting not to be clowned. zoro NEVER beat a top tier opponent.
King gets DESTROYED by anyone with good CoO and reasonable damage output, he is literally a one trick pony, find out his flames gimmick and he is prey to be eaten.
That´s what happens when king fights people with knowledge about lunarians:
Oda himself realized that lunarians are jobbers hence why he introduced holy knights and so many other WG fighters, once/if we comeback to egghead and zoro explains the lunarian gimmick, expect to see lucci and kaku harming them aswell.
Also: Yamato, law, beckman, sabo, admirals and as i already said ANYONE WITH DECENT DAMAGE OUTPUT AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT LUNARIANS>>>>>>>>>KING.
