Character Discussion Who is more pathetic? Dressrosa Usopp or WCI Sanji?
- Thread starter Monkey D. Luffy
- Start date
For Sanji:
Because Oda is writing humans and not machines, characters don't evolve in the blink of a eye
Concerning Usopp, his entire characterization in One Piece revolves around the notion of courage. During Dressrosa, Usopp was pushed to his limits. Not only his courage was tested but his loyalty too. Because both of those things are linked.
By giving candy to people Sugar can erease memory of people. She is therefore the representation of what Usopp fear the most: losing his friends.
Now, in Dressora, Usopp courage was tested two times. First, by his loyalty: he was promised by the tontata to be a savior, but he denied that status by running away.. This is were the real development of Usopp appeared, Usopp turned back, his courage pushed him to face Sugar and the other guy head on.
Of course he was defeated, but that's not the point, the point is that he faced himself and just like water Seven with his pride, he made the right choice of loyalty out of courage.
This is the moment for you to understand that Usopp is a comedic character who is the representation of courage, but he is also the representation of fear. Just like Batman, Usopp defeats his ennemies with fear. So it's logical that the moment Usopp was nourrish with candy, he exulted with suffering in a way that would scare anyone. Sugar was therefore instantly frightened which permitted Usopp to win the first match despite himself.
Now come the second round. This time, Usopp courage is at his best and it's time for him to defeat his antagonist by his own means. That's the moment Oda chooses to make Usopp develop observation haki but that's also the peak moment of Usopp in term of skill in the entire story. And what did Oda choose to defeat Sugar a second time ? Fear. The same thing that was introduced a while ago. But this time Usopp is in control.
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So to say that Usopp or Sanji are "pathetic" is a GREAT missunderstanding of the narration of One Piece during those arc and during the entire story in fact.
Oda is creating amazing humans, but he also has the ability to write in subtext. That's why you need to check deeper. One Piece is not just a simple shonen. Everything is thought with a narrative purpose. And just like a good ficiton, not everything is told to the reader. That's why you need to be careful at what is being showned.
Because Oda is writing humans and not machines, characters don't evolve in the blink of a eye
Concerning Usopp, his entire characterization in One Piece revolves around the notion of courage. During Dressrosa, Usopp was pushed to his limits. Not only his courage was tested but his loyalty too. Because both of those things are linked.
By giving candy to people Sugar can erease memory of people. She is therefore the representation of what Usopp fear the most: losing his friends.
Now, in Dressora, Usopp courage was tested two times. First, by his loyalty: he was promised by the tontata to be a savior, but he denied that status by running away.. This is were the real development of Usopp appeared, Usopp turned back, his courage pushed him to face Sugar and the other guy head on.
Of course he was defeated, but that's not the point, the point is that he faced himself and just like water Seven with his pride, he made the right choice of loyalty out of courage.
This is the moment for you to understand that Usopp is a comedic character who is the representation of courage, but he is also the representation of fear. Just like Batman, Usopp defeats his ennemies with fear. So it's logical that the moment Usopp was nourrish with candy, he exulted with suffering in a way that would scare anyone. Sugar was therefore instantly frightened which permitted Usopp to win the first match despite himself.
Now come the second round. This time, Usopp courage is at his best and it's time for him to defeat his antagonist by his own means. That's the moment Oda chooses to make Usopp develop observation haki but that's also the peak moment of Usopp in term of skill in the entire story. And what did Oda choose to defeat Sugar a second time ? Fear. The same thing that was introduced a while ago. But this time Usopp is in control.
---
So to say that Usopp or Sanji are "pathetic" is a GREAT missunderstanding of the narration of One Piece during those arc and during the entire story in fact.
Oda is creating amazing humans, but he also has the ability to write in subtext. That's why you need to check deeper. One Piece is not just a simple shonen. Everything is thought with a narrative purpose. And just like a good ficiton, not everything is told to the reader. That's why you need to be careful at what is being showned.
I’m gonna quote Oda for this one
Usopp vs Sugar was the same tired stuff he’d been doing for over a decade. Usopp is a coward, Usopp mans up, rewarded by a gag victory. Nothing deep or interesting, and all it showed was a stagnated flanderisation of the character with him still not growing despite the timeskip. Ussop vs Sugar treaded the same grounds as Usopp vs Chew all the way back in East Blue, and was far more juvenile to boot.
Usopp vs Sugar was the same tired stuff he’d been doing for over a decade. Usopp is a coward, Usopp mans up, rewarded by a gag victory. Nothing deep or interesting, and all it showed was a stagnated flanderisation of the character with him still not growing despite the timeskip. Ussop vs Sugar treaded the same grounds as Usopp vs Chew all the way back in East Blue, and was far more juvenile to boot.
I’m gonna quote Oda for this one
Usopp vs Sugar was the same tired stuff he’d been doing for over a decade. Usopp is a coward, Usopp mans up, rewarded by a gag victory. Nothing deep or interesting, and all it showed was a stagnated flanderisation of the character with him still not growing despite the timeskip. Ussop vs Sugar treaded the same grounds as Usopp vs Chew all the way back in East Blue, and was far more juvenile to boot.
Usopp vs Sugar was the same tired stuff he’d been doing for over a decade. Usopp is a coward, Usopp mans up, rewarded by a gag victory. Nothing deep or interesting, and all it showed was a stagnated flanderisation of the character with him still not growing despite the timeskip. Ussop vs Sugar treaded the same grounds as Usopp vs Chew all the way back in East Blue, and was far more juvenile to boot.
Not everything is about growing. In One Piece, Usopp is a character that is facing his deeper weakness. Meaning that he will faces them again and again. That's perfectly natural. But the thing you are forgetting is that each time those weakness reveal another facet of Usopp personnality.
Alabasta: Determination
Water Seven: Pride
Thriller: Fear
Dressrosa: Loyalty
In short, Usopp is evolving, just not on the same side. You have to be really ignoring the story to call that man "pathetic".
One Piece is deep, despite what Oda is saying or at least multilayered. And you really should start understanding that, because you guys are missing a lot of good stuff.
Does it matter? Oda’s openly said time and time again he’s writing for what he would enjoy at a teenage boy. He’s openly said he doesn’t think One Piece is that deep.
Fans are reading far more into it than the author himself.
Yes, it’s truly enthralling and interesting writing to see Usopp go through the same struggle for decades.
Running away and leaving his comrades was the theme of Ussop‘s fight in Arlong Park.
Usopp vs Sugar was a regression of the character. It wasn’t good writing.
I think you need to read more if you think One Piece is deep.
Fans are reading far more into it than the author himself.
Yes, it’s truly enthralling and interesting writing to see Usopp go through the same struggle for decades.
Running away and leaving his comrades was the theme of Ussop‘s fight in Arlong Park.
Usopp vs Sugar was a regression of the character. It wasn’t good writing.
I think you need to read more if you think One Piece is deep.
I gave a vote to be fair only to see what was leading. Tho I don't see them as pathetic in any of those moments, well maybe Usopp in dressrossa as ”let the guy have a break he barely breath”, and Sanji on WCI as ”guy is in constant PTSD and heart smashing let him have a break at once”. I don't see those things as pathetic, rather sad or worrisome things where you more long to them than get away from those.
Tho but ye, I have to agree with others, starting with Dressrossa, Usopp goes through a giant character regression which is really sad and I hope will be... AT LEAST tried to be saved or such cuz now he is harshly pushed on the side in the story.
He's called a God but he got smacked in the face as any other "god" in the story besides Nika.
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Tho but ye, I have to agree with others, starting with Dressrossa, Usopp goes through a giant character regression which is really sad and I hope will be... AT LEAST tried to be saved or such cuz now he is harshly pushed on the side in the story.
He's called a God but he got smacked in the face as any other "god" in the story besides Nika.
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Oda might say that One Piece is just the simple story of a young boy. The narrative fact are differents is the way that One Piece is a deep multilayered story about social and political issue. As I already said multiple time here. There are two things: What the writer says, and what the writer shows. Those two are often in contradiction.
Of course, when we are talking about foreshadowings or power system or the way Oda is writing. but not when it comes to narration.
The narration can be objectively dissected. Narration is a skill and that skill can be rated.
Like I said, it's not the same trouble. It's the same only on surface. In reality, Oda is exploring all of Usopp facets.
Yes it was. And Usopp will always run away, that's the core of his character. What matter is the way he chooses to come back. Dressrosa was great writing for Usopp. It explored one of the fears of Usopp while giving him a perfect shining moment.
Sure.
And I think you need to learn a bit more about storytelling.
Of course, when we are talking about foreshadowings or power system or the way Oda is writing. but not when it comes to narration.
The narration can be objectively dissected. Narration is a skill and that skill can be rated.
Like I said, it's not the same trouble. It's the same only on surface. In reality, Oda is exploring all of Usopp facets.
Yes it was. And Usopp will always run away, that's the core of his character. What matter is the way he chooses to come back. Dressrosa was great writing for Usopp. It explored one of the fears of Usopp while giving him a perfect shining moment.
Sure.
And I think you need to learn a bit more about storytelling.
The fact Usopp owes his first victory against Sugar to literal luck.
No offense, but the thematics to Usopp "versus" Sugar are irrelevant. The fact Usopp emerged victorious through a stroke of luck makes that moment feel unearned no matter how much "bravery" and "loyalty" he "develops." No one is saying Usopp plays up an "uber bad-ass"; we want him to win through things that require actual skills like strategizing with his gadgets. Instead, through some miracle, Usopp's face upon consuming the spicy edible just happens to scare Sugar.
No offense, but the thematics to Usopp "versus" Sugar are irrelevant. The fact Usopp emerged victorious through a stroke of luck makes that moment feel unearned no matter how much "bravery" and "loyalty" he "develops." No one is saying Usopp plays up an "uber bad-ass"; we want him to win through things that require actual skills like strategizing with his gadgets. Instead, through some miracle, Usopp's face upon consuming the spicy edible just happens to scare Sugar.
Because like many One Piece fan here, you are missing the point. What was important was not his victory, it was the fact that he choose once again to come back. Usopp had his moment of victory later.
Well here is the proof that you don't understand how One Piece works.
One Piece is not about winning or losing. It's about good worldbuilding, well ajusted milking and subtle but amazing characterization.
Go read HxH or Death Note if you want that type of content. That's not what One Piece is where battles are just a pretext to development. You can dislike that if you will but you can't call those character pathetic. It would be completely missing the point.
In One Piece, characters are not machines like in most manga, there are humans, they make mistakes, sometimes the same one again and again until they grow, but they always deliver.
And Usopp in Dressrosa plus Sanji in WCI are marvelous example of that. Both here were great examples of courage.
Well here is the proof that you don't understand how One Piece works.
One Piece is not about winning or losing. It's about good worldbuilding, well ajusted milking and subtle but amazing characterization.
Go read HxH or Death Note if you want that type of content. That's not what One Piece is where battles are just a pretext to development. You can dislike that if you will but you can't call those character pathetic. It would be completely missing the point.
In One Piece, characters are not machines like in most manga, there are humans, they make mistakes, sometimes the same one again and again until they grow, but they always deliver.
And Usopp in Dressrosa plus Sanji in WCI are marvelous example of that. Both here were great examples of courage.
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An Asspull??
The problem here is your wording.
The point of the first victory of Usopp over Sugar was to be seen a sheer luck victory.
Like I said earlier, Usopp is a comedic character and like many character in One Piece he won DESPITE himself. Oda has a very clear sence of comedy in the sence that he loves to laugh at his own situations. So yeah, Usopp won by luck. But that doesn't make this situation a bad written one. In fact Oda is just developping the comedic side of Usopp in Dressrosa.
But did you notice that not only did he won by luck, but he was ALSO given the title of "GOD" by luck. And that the WHOLE point of Usopp situation in Dressrosa. His ONE act of bravery put him in the WORST situation for him:
Meaning that by coming back and being fed the candy, Usopp unintentionnaly started a round of event that would lead him to become the most researched man on the Island by the Bid bad guy. And that's exactly what comedy irony is. Oda through Usopp explored the irony of one character becoming an instant god because of circounstances.
And I find that amazing.
The problem here is your wording.
The point of the first victory of Usopp over Sugar was to be seen a sheer luck victory.
Like I said earlier, Usopp is a comedic character and like many character in One Piece he won DESPITE himself. Oda has a very clear sence of comedy in the sence that he loves to laugh at his own situations. So yeah, Usopp won by luck. But that doesn't make this situation a bad written one. In fact Oda is just developping the comedic side of Usopp in Dressrosa.
But did you notice that not only did he won by luck, but he was ALSO given the title of "GOD" by luck. And that the WHOLE point of Usopp situation in Dressrosa. His ONE act of bravery put him in the WORST situation for him:
Meaning that by coming back and being fed the candy, Usopp unintentionnaly started a round of event that would lead him to become the most researched man on the Island by the Bid bad guy. And that's exactly what comedy irony is. Oda through Usopp explored the irony of one character becoming an instant god because of circounstances.
And I find that amazing.