Powers & Abilities Will weaker characters like Sanji unlocking ACoC devalue ACoC?

[HeroesNZ]

He interjected about Rayleigh.

And again, the Marines knew Oden was a Roger Pirate. Your claim is that oda is purposefully lying for zero reason which is a straight up silly take.

It’s clear what that speech was saying:
Roger Rayleigh and Gaban > Any Roger Pirate and yes that includes oden.

Usopp knows Rayleigh personally and has seen how strong Rayleigh is, he's never met, seen or even heard of Oden outside of Wano. I can't even recall the word Oden ever coming out of Usopp's mouth. Super flimsy argument.

You have no idea what Oimo knows. Assuming that because Sengoku, the former Fleet Admiral knows that Oden was a Roger pirate, that must mean it was common knowledge amongst all marines - even ones who were tricked and based in a single location in Paradise for decades is a horrible assumption to base your argument off. Furthermore, Oden was not well-known outside of Wano at all, so why would anyone care to mention him? The only people who knew Oden was strong outside of Wano were the people he fought against. Why tf would he be mentioned in the context of legends - he's not a legend outside of Wano, he's a random commander.

I've literally not said anything about Gaban vs Oden, all I've said is that you can't act as if Gaban > Oden is manga fact because it really isn't. You say it's clear that's what the speech was saying - clear in your interpretation perhaps. Which is fine, just don't act as if it's fact.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Usopp knows Rayleigh personally and has seen how strong Rayleigh is, he's never met, seen or even heard of Oden outside of Wano. I can't even recall the word Oden ever coming out of Usopp's mouth. Super flimsy argument.

You have no idea what Oimo knows. Assuming that because Sengoku, the former Fleet Admiral knows that Oden was a Roger pirate, that must mean it was common knowledge amongst all marines - even ones who were tricked and based in a single location in Paradise for decades is a horrible assumption to base your argument off. Furthermore, Oden was not well-known outside of Wano at all, so why would anyone care to mention him? The only people who knew Oden was strong outside of Wano were the people he fought against. Why tf would he be mentioned in the context of legends - he's not a legend outside of Wano, he's a random commander.

I've literally not said anything about Gaban vs Oden, all I've said is that you can't actually as if Gaban > Oden is manga fact because it really isn't. You say it's clear that's what the speech was saying - clear in your interpretation perhaps. Which is fine, just don't act as if it's fact.

I can say the manga outwardly stated that Gaban > Oden, if you choose to believe your headcanon that the mangaka is puposefuly lying that’s on you. But according to the canon, Ray and Gaban are two exceptionally strong Roger Pirates who stood above all others.

So as I said, going by the canon, Gaban > Oden

 

[HeroesNZ]

I can say the manga outwardly stated that Gaban > Oden, if you choose to believe your headcanon that the mangaka is puposefuly lying that’s on you. But according to the canon, Ray and Gaban are two exceptionally strong Roger Pirates who stood above all others.

So as I said, going by the canon, Gaban > Oden

No, you can say that you're inferring from this quote that Gaban > Oden. But this is not fact. Because to state it as such means the burden of proof is on you to prove that:
1) Oimo canonically knows Oden was a Roger Pirate.

2) Oimo is aware that Oden canonically returned to Wano many times stronger than when he left.

3) Oimo was referring to Prime Oden in his statement, not the weaker version of Oden who didn't even have ACoC.

You cannot prove any of these things to the level of fact. You can possess debatable evidence, but none of these are proof beyond reasonable doubt to be presented as fact. And 2 & 3 completely negate your entire argument as Wano is closed off to the world. So the only person arguing with headcanon here, is you.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

No, you can say that you're inferring from this quote that Gaban > Oden. But this is not fact. Because to state it as such means the burden of proof is on you to prove that:
1) Oimo canonically knows Oden was a Roger Pirate.

2) Oimo is aware that Oden canonically returned to Wano many times stronger than when he left.

3) Oimo was referring to Prime Oden in his statement, not the weaker version of Oden who didn't even have ACoC.

You cannot prove any of these things. And 2 & 3 completely negate your entire argument as Wano is closed off to the world. So the only person arguing with headcanon here, is you.

If we can’t trust a quote from the manga, there’s literally nothing that can be used as a source.

Odas intentions were clear here among the Roger pirates Gaban and Ray stood above and apart all others. That’s what the quote is saying.

Why would oda purposefully lie?

 

[HeroesNZ]

If we can’t trust a quote from the manga, there’s literally nothing that can be used as a source.

Odas intentions were clear here among the Roger pirates Gaban and Ray stood above and apart all others. That’s what the quote is saying.

Why would oda purposefully lie?

Oda isn't lying, Oimo is telling his truth - huge difference.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Oda isn't lying, Oimo is telling his truth - huge difference.

But you have to make huge assumptions about oimo for some reason not knowing about Oden despite it being known within the marines for years about it.

Again, if we can’t trust the manga, then there’s no point discussing anything

 

[HeroesNZ]

But you have to make huge assumptions about oimo for some reason not knowing about Oden despite it being known within the marines for years about it.

Again, if we can’t trust the manga, then there’s no point discussing anything

Not a huge assumption, a fair question. A huge assumption would be assuming even if Oimo knew of Oden, that he also knows how strong Oden was.

Furthermore, that even if Oimo knew how strong Oden was as a Roger Pirate, he also knows how strong Oden became in his prime.

Furthermore, even if Oimo knew how strong prime Oden was, he was including that version of Oden in his quote, not the version of Oden who didn't even have ACoC.

Way too many ridiculous assumptions to be presented as fact. Just state it for what it is: your opinion.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Not a huge assumption, a fair question. A huge assumption would be assuming even if Oimo knew of Oden, that he also knows how strong Oden was.

Furthermore, that even if Oimo knew how strong Oden was as a Roger Pirate, he also knows how strong Oden became in his prime.

Furthermore, even if Oimo knew how strong prime Oden was, he was including that version of Oden in his quote, not the version of Oden who didn't even have ACoC.

Way too many ridiculous assumptions to be presented as fact. Just state it for what it is: your opinion.

Or it’s just like how he knows how strong Prime Rayleigh is and all the other Roger Pirates are.

The point of the quote was to establish that the Roger pirates had the identical power structure of the straw hats. You’re trying to ignore the manga in exchange for your own headcanon, when by all portrayal and a legitimate statement, Gaban > Oden

 

[HeroesNZ]

Or it’s just like how he knows how strong Prime Rayleigh is and all the other Roger Pirates are.

The point of the quote was to establish that the Roger pirates had the identical power structure of the straw hats. You’re trying to ignore the manga in exchange for your own headcanon, when by all portrayal and a legitimate statement, Gaban > Oden

What suggests Rayleigh was not in his prime as a Roger Pirate? Nothing - Oden is the only Roger Pirate who we know for a fact was much weaker than his prime as a Roger Pirate, and no one outside of Wano has any idea exactly how strong Oden became; especially not some random fodder marine based in paradise.

The Roger Pirates do have a similar power structure as the SHs, in the sense that they have their M3 who will end up significantly stronger than the rest (it's not quite there yet). Except prime Oden sits outside of that power structure, so that's a completely moot point.

I don't care how strong Roger, Rayleigh and Gaban were, no one is looking at those three, looking at prime Oden and thinking that they stand apart from him. Oden was already grouped with the strongest pirates ever twice, by Kaido and by Oda when he paralleled Roger, Oden and WB with Luffy, Sabo and Ace. The only time Oden fought against the Roger Pirates, Rayleigh and Gaban were gonna double team him lmao.

Take your blinders off and see the situation for what it is - that statement can't have included Oden because no matter how biased anyone is, it's undeniable that Oden is one of the strongest pirates to have ever existed, was undeniably a top-tier and was truly a monster in his own right. So you can think Gaban > Oden, but Gaban >>> Oden is plain wrong and that's exactly what that statement would imply, were Oden to be included in it (he's obviously not).

Oden with the Roger Pirates is the equivalent of say if Yamato were to join the crew on Wano - she'd exist outside of the power structure and would obviously be considered a monster.

 

[DonWick]

Luffy has never asked for help against a weaker opponent before



Luffy wants Zoros help to beat old and far out of prime Gaban who’s weaker than EoS Sanji.

Luffy had no intention of fighting Gaban. He was going after the key. But what has Sanji done?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Luffy had no intention of fighting Gaban. He was going after the key. But what has Sanji done?

He was fully intent on fighting Gaban when he went G5.

We’re talking about Sanjis guaranteed floor here that’s what’s important when talking about EoS Sanji.

 

[DonWick]

He was fully intent on fighting Gaban when he went G5.

We’re talking about Sanjis guaranteed floor here that’s what’s important when talking about EoS Sanji.

Sanji gone use haki axes to? Also, did they fight when Luffy went G5?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Sanji gone use haki axes to? Also, did they fight when Luffy went G5?

Luffys not using swords either but we all attribute Roger to his power floor.

And Luffy was 100 percent prepared to fight in G5 but Gaban had no intention to fight

 

[DonWick]

Luffys not using swords either but we all attribute Roger to his power floor.

And Luffy was 100 percent prepared to fight in G5 but Gaban had no intention to fight

But did he fight him?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

But did he fight him?

Luffy going all out and asking for Zoros help is proof enough.

There’s a reason everyone in this thread is telling you Sanji is at minimum yonko level EOS.

 

[Kōri no kokyū]

Luffy going all out and asking for Zoros help is proof enough.

There’s a reason everyone in this thread is telling you Sanji is at minimum yonko level EOS.

Eow luffy is yonkou level , every yonkou would bully him.

 

[DonWick]

Luffy going all out and asking for Zoros help is proof enough.

There’s a reason everyone in this thread is telling you Sanji is at minimum yonko level EOS.

You’re saying the same thing you said but you aren’t answering the question.

Despite the loud Sanji fans here the poll is telling you that I’m not the only one that holds this opinion. It’s currently split 50/50.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

You’re saying the same thing you said but you aren’t answering the question.

Despite the loud Sanji fans here the poll is telling you that I’m not the only one that holds this opinion. It’s currently split 50/50.

Because the poll isn’t about Sanji. That’s just your obsession.

People are answering if weaker characters devalue CoC and people are split on that. Not if Sanjis in the weaker characters devalue CoC list lmao

 

[DonWick]

Because the poll isn’t about Sanji. That’s just your obsession.

People are answering if weaker characters devalue CoC and people are split on that. Not if Sanjis in the weaker characters devalue CoC list lmao

The poll is including Sanji. People are voting on weaker characters like Sanji.

This isn’t an obsession at all. It’s intelligence and interest. I enjoy talking to y'all on the forum so why wouldn’t I talk about a character that is more interesting to talk about. Sanji is the character that is the easiest to critique. Everyone agrees that Zoro and Luffy are strong. Everyone isn’t aligned on where Sanji is strength wise therefore posts about him get more engagement. That is common sense.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

The poll is including Sanji. People are voting on weaker characters like Sanji.

This isn’t an obsession at all. It’s intelligence and interest. I enjoy talking to y'all on the forum so why wouldn’t I talk about a character that is more interesting to talk about. Sanji is the character that is the easiest to critique. Everyone agrees that Zoro and Luffy are strong. Everyone isn’t aligned on where Sanji is strength wise therefore posts about him get more engagement. That is common sense.

Read your poll.

Nah man you have made basically one Sanji thread a day. It’s an obsession at this point