Versus Battle Zhao vs Chu: all-out war

[Blackbeard]

Chu decided to invade Zhao's southern lands to conquer the region east of Gyou. On their way, they were intercepted by a massive Zhao army. The decisive battle takes place at Zhao's southern plains (let's say nearly identical to Dakan Plains in Wei).

- Each Supreme Commander will get 2 additional Great Generals under his command.

Chu army:
Supreme Commander: Renpa

Great General: Kanmei
Great General: Karin
General: Rinbunkun
General: Kaishibou
General: Kyouen
5000-man commander: Kouyoku
1000-man commander: Hakurei

250,000 strong Chu soldiers
Karin' special war elephant squad

VS

Zhao army:
Supreme Commander: Riboku

Great General: Houken
Great General: Gaku Jou
General: Gyou'un
General: Bananji
General: Kisui
3000-man commander: Futei
3000-man commander: Kaine

240,000 strong Zhao soldiers
20,000 Elite Quanrong separate army led by Rozo

Battlefield:

Spoiler

- Zhao army are positioned at the hills

- Chu Army are positioned to the south

- War ends when either side claims the head of the enemy's supreme commander (If Renpa or Riboku are slain).

If you think it would be a stalemate/the campaign would fail under different circumstances please elaborate.

 

[Blackbeard]

Forgot the tags:

Spoiler

@Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki @Patryipe @Dark Admiral @RayanOO @Arara @Yo Tan Wa @Guan Yu and everyone else interested

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

This is a tough freaking matchup man. I’m not sure which of them takes it. Both armies have generals at Great General level or just beneath it.

For the Chu:
Renpa-GG level all around
Kanmei-GG as a warrior (above?)
Karin-GG tactically
Rinbukun-strong warrior General but not GG
Kaishibou-GG level in terms of brute strength
Kyou En-close to GG level overall

Great General level guys for Zhao:
Riboku-GG (above?)
Houken-GG (above?)
Gyou’Un-GG(his strength was Rinshoujou’s entire offense)
GakuJou-? He knows a lot of Renpa’s tactics so I assume he was pretty formidable?
Bananji-basically GG level fighting ability
Kisui-a complete jobber. Probably high General overall.

So strictly in terms of Generals, I would say Zhao has the advantage, both tactically and martially. Riboku’s tactics are going to be slightly above Renpa’s and Karin’s, and Houken, Gyou’Un, and Bananji just barely edge out the Martial contest against Kanmei, Renpa, and Kaishibou. Imo.

In terms of commanders, Chu stomps them, no contest there really. KouYoku and Hakurei are far above Futei and Kaine atm.

In terms of special units, Zhao has the advantage again. Rozo and his Quanrong Troops are stronger more versatile than Karin’s War elephants, which really are only going to be good for causing distractions which Riboku will probably see through anyway, just like Ousen did.

So overall, I would say Zhao wins a long and bloody battle. It will be close, and people like Renpa and Kanmei won’t go down without a hard fight, but they will go down against superior tactics and martial strength.

The Zhao win a very close fight imo, really only because of Riboku and Houken.

 

[Blackbeard]

This is a tough freaking matchup man. I’m not sure which of them takes it. Both armies have generals at Great General level or just beneath it.

For the Chu:
Renpa-GG level all around
Kanmei-GG as a warrior (above?)
Karin-GG tactically
Rinbukun-strong warrior General but not GG
Kaishibou-GG level in terms of brute strength
Kyou En-close to GG level overall

Great General level guys for Zhao:
Riboku-GG (above?)
Houken-GG (above?)
Gyou’Un-GG(his strength was Rinshoujou’s entire offense)
GakuJou-? He knows a lot of Renpa’s tactics so I assume he was pretty formidable?
Bananji-basically GG level fighting ability
Kisui-a complete jobber. Probably high General overall.

So strictly in terms of Generals, I would say Zhao has the advantage, both tactically and martially. Riboku’s tactics are going to be slightly above Renpa’s and Karin’s, and Houken, Gyou’Un, and Bananji just barely edge out the Martial contest against Kanmei, Renpa, and Kaishibou. Imo.

In terms of commanders, Chu stomps them, no contest there really. KouYoku and Hakurei are far above Futei and Kaine atm.

In terms of special units, Zhao has the advantage again. Rozo and his Quanrong Troops are stronger more versatile than Karin’s War elephants, which really are only going to be good for causing distractions which Riboku will probably see through anyway, just like Ousen did.

So overall, I would say Zhao wins a long and bloody battle. It will be close, and people like Renpa and Kanmei won’t go down without a hard fight, but they will go down against superior tactics and martial strength.

The Zhao win a very close fight imo, really only because of Riboku and Houken.

Thanks for the reply!

I also think the Zhao might win the war but they would suffer more casualties and Riboku or Houken would be slain. I know it's not an open warfare for Riboku's statement (that Renpa can best anyone) to hold any value but i think it would be similar to when Renpa cleaned his road all the way to Mougou nearly killing him but was forced to retreat because of the threat Kanki and Ousen posed.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I know it's not an open warfare for Riboku's statement (that Renpa can best anyone) to hold any value

I think this statement speaks more to Renpa’s OP ass Heavenly Kings than anything else at that point. No one in China had subordinates of that level at that point.

But here, where the subordinates are nearly equal, things look different lol.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Zhou has the topographical advantage here, being positioned with their forces atop the hills and with such a minuscule different in overall army size (10,000 — not a game changer in battles) it's hard to give Chu much thought. The defensive attributes of the raised landscape has been seen the world over as a coveted position. A key example would be the ambush at Sabis during the Gallic wars, where the Belgae were forced to run across a field and then up a hill in order to attack the Romans just in the infancy of constructing a camp there.

The act of having to cover such a distance (while under fire) and then fight up a hill (under fire) is arduous, and the Zhou army has no reason to move from their perches with the sole exception of flanking maneuvers to either tunnel Chu forward and trap them, or to stop any attempts to encircle the Zhou's superior position.

Elephants in warfare have always had a mixed rating. They can be real good for Chu or disastrous, turning back and doing more damage to their own ranks. It's tough to factor in but again, unless Zhou decides to take to flat ground, the elephant advantage is muffled significantly. You cannot create a breach so easily up hill, on account of foot soldiers being ill equipped to flood the gap and shatter the line. Likewise, Elephants do not possess their inherent size advantage going up hill. They, ironically, become on par with a man for a short period of time and thus vulnerable.

After the first day of fighting, it's likely the battle is over with Chu deciding to strategically retreat and reevaluate new targets.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Very interesting matchup. I’ll be back to give my opinion. I mean I already gave it to Chu though. More on it later.

 

[Shanks]

Chu takes this as two supreme level tacticians vs Riboku. While Riboku also implied that defeating Renpa is an impossible feat for himself.

Also if we talk about physical strength than Kanmei, Renpa, Kaishiboi, Rinbunkun and Kyouyaku are too much for Zhao's Houken, GyouUn and Banaji. While Chu also got two brilliant archers who're also in top 10 in china.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Let's get started;
First Of Supreme Commander
Renpa Vs Riboku= Riboku is more or less comparable to Ousen and Renpa himself has proven to be above Ousen during their only battle. The only reason Renpa lost was he took on two GG worthy Generals (Ousen and Kanki). Also, the wild card Shin who slayed Rinko.

Great Generals
Karin Vs Gako Jou = Not much to say for Gako Jou. There isn't much to go for him. But considering this factor,
“ Gaku Jou your warfare was quite good. Many a time it would give even me the chills. Well that said compared to those Qin bastards it's only enough to satisfy me 60%. ”
—Ren Pa talking to Gaku Jou about his warfare
Karin is cunning General who outsmarted even the Ouki Army (minus Ouki). It can go either way but I'll vote Karin.

Kanmei Vs Houkem = Kanmei could go toe to toe with Moubu and even pushed him to extreme diff. Houken is a martial god but Brute strength is also an equal factor to be considered. Kanmei had one-shotted a Qin's GG in the past. Not much is known of that GG but the fact he was a GG is enough.

Spoiler

For me, Kan Mei takes this one, high-extreme diff.

Generals;
Rin Bun Kun Vs Gyo'un = Gyo'un is a tough guy but so is Rin Bun Kun. It took Goat Tou to take him out. The battle might go to Gyo'un but he will be more or less useless after that. So its a stalemate for me.

Kaishibou Vs Bannaji = Kaishibou single handedly managed to chase Kanki army during their battle. I'm not saying he could take them out but it is a great feat. Bannaji is a beast but even with a help of Gyo'un he couldn't really put down Akou for quite a time. Kaishibou for the win.

Kyouen Vs Kisui = Kisui doen't really strikes as a top tier General. At best he is at General Mougu level. Kyouen of Ten Bows has a big hype and reputation with him. He could pierce through an iron shield with his arrow. Kisui will have hard time dealing with those.

Commanders;
Kouyoku & Hakurei Vs Futei & Kaine = Kuoyoku could even keep up with Tou for a fair amount of time. I can't imagine Futei pulling it off. Kouyoku is the Chu's answer to Shin. Kaine is just a fodder material. I wonder how she got to 3k commanders. Hakurei managed to pull of a sneaky one on one of Ouki's vassals. she is also of ten bows. She should be able to snipe Kaine while she is busy with Chu army.

Army;
250 k vs 240k + 20k =
While Rozo army is a beastly looking army but so is the men from Chu;

Spoiler

Also the Elephant squad can wreck havoc in the battlefield. The difference in number isn't much of a factor here.

Finally the battlefield itself, Zhao does have it's territorial advantage of high ground and it could benefit from it in the early phase. But, ultimately the battle will be fought in the plains and that advantage would not make much of a difference there. Riboku is a clever man and would try to focus on gaining the upper hand through the territorial advantage but so will Renpa to counter his moves.

Chu for the Win..!!:cheers:

 

[RayanOO]

It's 241 BC, Chu decided to invade Zhao's southern lands to conquer the region east of Gyou. On their way, they were intercepted by a massive Zhao army. The decisive battle takes place at Zhao's southern plains (let's say nearly identical to Dakan Plains in Wei).

- Each Supreme Commander will get 2 additional Great Generals under his command.

Chu army:
Supreme Commander: Renpa

Great General: Kanmei
Great General: Karin
General: Rinbunkun
General: Kaishibou
General: Kyouen
5000-man commander: Kouyoku
1000-man commander: Hakurei

250,000 strong Chu soldiers
Karin' special war elephant squad

VS

Zhao army:
Supreme Commander: Riboku

Great General: Houken
Great General: Gaku Jou
General: Gyou'un
General: Kisui
General: Bananji
3000-man commander: Futei
3000-man commander: Kaine

240,000 strong Zhao soldiers
20,000 Elite Quanrong separate army led by Rozo

Battlefield:

Spoiler

- Zhao army are positioned at the north hill

- Chu Army are positioned to the South

- War ends when either side claims the head of the enemy's supreme commander (If Renpa or Riboku are slain).

If you think it would be a stalemate/the campaign would fail under different circumstances please elaborate.​

For now I slightly think that Chu will win this.

Renpa is a monster extremely skilled in both attack and defense so even if Riboku is 1% smarter than him it will be a nightmare. And Renpa has for him a long long experience.

Tactic wise this will be a hard match.

And Renpa advantage is he can go fighting too while Riboku is more a commander than a fighter. Renpa is extremely skilled in combat so except Houken I don't see anyone stalling him. And it is not even sure that Houken can win this, Renpa likely pack a fair amount of weight so even if Houken is stronger Renpa can still win.

And we can't forget that there is an other monster on the field : Kan Mei. Same except Houken no one can come close to him without being flattened, even Gyou'un or Bananji will be killed.

And there are also Kaishibou , Runbukun, Kyou En and Kouyaku to deal with. I think that Gyou'un is stronger than any general here but they are all really strong. Kaishibou or Rinbukun will be a nightmare for Gyou'un or Bananji. Kyou En is also really skilled and Kouyokou with his real sword can fight Kisui just fine for me.

All in all I think in martial might Chu is better. 2 monsters : Renpa and Kanmei is too much. Houken can't slay both and it is debatable that he can slay one.

(I forgot Rozo - Kanmei or Renpa are stronger than him but he is strong)

Tactic wise : as I said Renpa and Riboku are close, Riboku can be a shade smarter but Renpa has been a warrior for decades. (Experience).

I have Ka Rin better than Gaku Jou. She is the head of Chu military and proved herself to be quite smart.

Gyou'un is a boss and instinct can be really good and Bananji is really experienced and can think too. I think against Kaishibou and Kyou En it can be relatively even brain wise. I can slightly advantage the HK here but it can be even.

The fooder can cancel each other and the quarongs vs the elephants can be fun haha.

All in all Chu for the win.

 

[FaradaySloth]

Honestly, Chu. They have a complete pack, amazing youth generation (Hakurei+Kouyoku) to top tier Deputies (HK+Rinbukun) to skilled strategists and warriors like Karin & Kanmei and to top it off have one of the most complete Great Generals in Kingdom, Renpa.

Unpopular opinion, but Riboku carries Zhao until we see what Gakujou can do (only speculation really). Houken is an emotional mess, Kaine/Futei are garbage, and folks like Gyouun/Bananji are physical beasts but couldn't defeat a wing mainly riding on morale with two young commanders starving their bodies out.