Character Discussion Zoro does kill on panel. Proof and Evidence.

[Finalbeta]

How many people legitimately believe that Zoro doesn't want to kill Kaido or even that his actions will betray what his conscious intentions are?

This is not quite realistically debatable honestly.

Luffy stopping Zoro from committing the act is very unlikely but at least looks less embarrassing as an argument.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

I never (!) stated thats in the nature of every straw hat, i said it is always the decision of Luffy. And Luffys decision will always count more to Zoro than his own, cause Zoro demoted himself to Luffy. Luffys goal is the most important for all of the strawhats and bring him there is their main goal too.
Luffy is the captain, if the captain brings up a decision, the crew follows that decision. And Luffys decision was always not to kill his main enemy. He never killed them and never wanted to.

And at the end of the day, Kaido, while the antagonist for all 5, Luffy counts higher in this battle then Zoro does, not only for us readers, but also for Zoro himself, cause Luffy is his captain.

Zoro is not taking a step there, which Luffy isnt willing too.

Yes but like i said you are assuming luffy would stop him, But why would he stop him? there is literally nothing that indicates that luffy ever stopped zoro from killing.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

How many people legitimately believe that Zoro doesn't want to kill Kaido or even that his actions will betray what his conscious intentions are?

This is not quite realistically debatable honestly.

Luffy stopping Zoro from committing the act is very unlikely but at least looks less embarrassing as an argument.

Like if this matters. Diamante is alive, Pound is alive, the Unluckies are alive, Spandam is alive, Yama is alive... There's literally zero reason for us to care about whether Zoro wants to kill Kaido or not. "Realistic debate" requires accepting that Zoro isn't killing Kaido only because he wants to since this manga has never worked like that.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

Like if this matters. Diamante is alive, Pound is alive, the Unluckies are alive, Spandam is alive, Yama is alive... There's literally zero reason for us to care about whether Zoro wants to kill Kaido or not. "Realistic debate" requires accepting that Zoro isn't killing Kaido only because he wants to.

Realistic debate is accepting that Zoro does kill on panel and that it happened before.

 

[mad monk]

Maybe he survived a shot to the head there is no confirmation

He would be a lucky survivor then, just like the one here who told Luffy that Zoro murdered them

 

[Pantheos]

Yes but like i said you are assuming luffy would stop him, But why would he stop him? there is literally nothing that indicates that luffy ever stopped zoro from killing.

It doesnt indicates luffy would stop him. Zoro knows Luffy and when Luffy beats the Antagonist and is going to leave, than this is Luffys decision to let the Antagonist keep his Life. Thats already the decision which Zoro never ever is going to ignore. Zoro will always respect this decision and follow his captain. Luffy dont need to say that explicit and he doesnt need to stop Zoro, otherwise Zoro would be no trustworthy part of the crew.

The only possible way for Zoro to kill the main antagonist is when Luffy is ordering so. But we know Luffy never will do that.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Realistic debate is accepting that Zoro does kill on panel and that it happened before.

Realistic debate is accepting that Kaido, a named character and main villain, isn't comparable at all to irrelevant fodder with completely different narrative purposes (I mean, even Oda spoke of how he prefers to leave villains alive because having their dreams crushed is worse than dying). And, on top of that, putting in the same ballpark off-screen kills, killing attempts (therefore irrelevant) and generic looking "kills" that can be confused with normal attacks (let's assume he did kill the magistrate) is absurd; especially considering what some readers expect, which is Zoro beheading Kaido over Flower Capital for everybody to witness the gruesome spectacle.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

It doesnt indicates luffy would stop him. Zoro knows Luffy and when Luffy beats the Antagonist and is going to leave, than this is Luffys decision to let the Antagonist keep his Life. Thats already the decision which Zoro never ever is going to ignore. Zoro will always respect this decision and follow his captain. Luffy dont need to say that explicit and he doesnt need to stop Zoro, otherwise Zoro would be no trustworthy part of the crew.

The only possible way for Zoro to kill the main antagonist is when Luffy is ordering so. But we know Luffy never will do that.

But this is not just luffy fight, Zoro is not coming to kill some villain that luffy has beat, Zoro is part of the fight, And if we folllow what has been happening in wano then he will be a big part in defeating kaido, So technically Zoro is killing his own opponent not luffys opponent, Which is different from zoro killing someone luffy beat.

Post automatically merged: Feb 24, 2021

Realistic debate is accepting that Kaido, a named character and main villain, isn't comparable at all to irrelevant fodder with completely different narrative purposes (I mean, even Oda spoke of how he prefers to leave villains alive because having their dreams crushed is worse than dying). And, on top of that, putting in the same ballpark off-screen kills, killing attempts (therefore irrelevant) and generic looking "kills" that can be confused with normal attacks (let's assume he did kill the magistrate) is absurd; especially considering what some readers expect, which is Zoro beheading Kaido over Flower Capital for everybody to witness the gruesome spectacle.

Debate is not ignoring what is said in the manga is proved above, These are not assumptions and not generic looking "kills" these are actual kills in the manga, And ignoring evidence is not a debate ignoring it is head canon.

 

[Pantheos]

But this is not just luffy fight, Zoro is not coming to kill some villain that luffy has beat, Zoro is part of the fight, And if we folllow what has been happening in wano then he will be a big part in defeating kaido, So technically Zoro is killing his own opponent not luffys opponent, Which is different from zoro killing someone luffy beat.

Hold up. You really think Kaido is Zoros fight and not Luffys fight in the end? Even if they fight together, Luffys decision will always have higher worth at the end, not only for us and Oda, even for Zoro. At the end of the fight, not Law will beat Kaido, not Killer, not Zoro, not even Kid, it will be, like always, Luffy.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

Hold up. You really think Kaido is Zoros fight and not Luffys fight in the end? Even if they fight together, Luffys decision will always have higher worth at the end, not only for us and Oda, even for Zoro. At the end of the fight, not Law will beat Kaido, not Killer, not Zoro, not even Kid, it will be, like always, Luffy.

Its both their fights and not luffys fight, No zoro wont step down he will fight Kaido along side luffy until then end and yes i believe that.
And yet again you are literally assuming luffy will stop him from killing kaido, Or that there is no scenario where Zoro will have to kill kaido.

Post automatically merged: Feb 24, 2021

Also like i said this is not just about this argument, This is about proving that Zoro does kill and that luffy doesnt care when he does. Its not just about kaido.

 

[Pantheos]

Its both their fights and not luffys fight, No zoro wont step down he will fight Kaido along side luffy until then end and yes i believe that.
And yet again you are literally assuming luffy will stop him from killing kaido, Or that there is no scenario where Zoro will have to kill kaido.

ok, i explained it to you now several times. I quote it one time again:

Zoro knows Luffy and when Luffy beats the Antagonist and is going to leave, than this is Luffys decision to let the Antagonist keep his Life. Thats already the decision which Zoro never ever is going to ignore. Zoro will always respect this decision and follow his captain. Luffy dont need to say that explicit and he doesnt need to stop Zoro, otherwise Zoro would be no trustworthy part of the crew.

And there it doesnt matter at all if they fight Kaido together, or if Luffy is doing it solo.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

ok, i explained it to you now several times. I quote it one time again:


And there it doesnt matter at all if they fight Kaido together, or if Luffy is doing it solo.

And like i repeated myself many times, Luffy wont beat Kaido alone. and yes it matters if they are fighting together in fact they are fighting together and infact it really matters because this is not just luffy fights this is zoros fight and he is there for his own reason.

Yes what you are saying is correct if Luffy was the one to beat kaido alone, but thats not the case all this build up for Zoro fighting kaido wasnt just so zoro fights him for 5 chapters and then step back.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Debate is not ignoring what is said in the manga is proved above, These are not assumptions and not generic looking "kills" these are actual kills in the manga, And ignoring evidence is not a debate ignoring it is head canon.

Debating is being honest enough to analyze things in context and without simplifications. Robin was stated to specialize on assassination yet Yama and Spandam are both alive and well. Kaido isn't a fodder put to generate an atmosphere and a reason for conflict (like Hatchan's people), or an off-screened kill to establish a background (like that Baroque Works agent), or to trigger a plot (assuming the magistrate was indeed killed because I can't check the raw); he's a main villain, which have never, ever been killed in spite of characters actually wanting to do so (did Robin want Spandam alive? Did Kyros want Diamante alive? Did Law wanted Vergo alive?); which have been stated to remain alive by Oda himself because he finds it harder to have your dreams crushed than dying; and who's expected by most of the ZKK supporters to be explicitly beheaded over the Flower Capital, which is significantly different (from a visual point of view) than being slashed like any other character that was only defeated (hence my "generic looking" comment; the magistrate, if indeed killed, was striked with the kind of slash that only defeats major characters).

Again, a proper debate is detailed and nuanced, and capable of analyzing in context; not simplistic and reduced to common denominators.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

Debate is being honest enough to analyze things in context and without simplifications. Robin was stated to specialize on assassination yet Yama and Spandam are both alive and well. Kaido isn't a fodder put to generate an atmosphere and a reason for conflict (like Hatchan's people), or an off-screened kill to establish a background (like that Baroque Works agent), or to trigger a plot (assuming the magistrate was indeed killed because I can't check the raw); he's a main villain, which have never, ever been killed in spite of characters actually wanting to do so (did Robin want Spandam alive? Did Kyros want Diamante alive? Did Law wanted Vergo alive?); which have been stated to remain alive by Oda himself because he finds it harder to have your dreams crushed than dying; and who's expected by most of the ZKK supporters to be explicitly beheaded over the Flower Capital, which is significantly different (from a visual point of view) than being slashed like any other character that was only defeated (hence my "generic looking" comment; the magistrate, if indeed killed, was striked with the kind of slash that only defeats major characters).

Like i said you are not debating you are ignoring evidence and thats head canon, Yes robin was an assassin but how is that relevant did she ever kill on panel? No, This is zoro literally killing on panel. You are not debating you are ignoring proof

 

[Pantheos]

And like i repeated myself many times, Luffy wont beat Kaido alone. and yes it matters if they are fighting together in fact they are fighting together and infact it really matters because this is not just luffy fights this is zoros fight and he is there for his own reason.

Yes what you are saying is correct if Luffy was the one to beat kaido alone, but thats not the case all this build up for Zoro fighting kaido wasnt just so zoro fights him for 5 chapters and then step back.

So you are claiming Zoro will beat Kaido in the end and not Luffy?

Cause we can discuss 3 outcomes here:

1. (most likely): Luffy will beat Kaido at the end -> Luffys Decision
2.: Luffy and Zoro beat Kaido together at the end -> Luffys decision, cause Luffys decision > Zoros decision (MC, Captain of Crew and several more points)
3.: Zoro will beat Kaido after Luffy is beaten/gone/whatever -> Then he may go for a kill.

But option 3 is only able if Luffys leaves the fight somehow for something bigger. Then Luffy will always (!) be above Zoro.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

So you are claiming Zoro will beat Kaido in the end and not Luffy?

Cause we can discuss 3 outcomes here:

1. (most likely): Luffy will beat Kaido at the end -> Luffys Decision
2.: Luffy and Zoro beat Kaido together at the end -> Luffys decision, cause Luffys decision > Zoros decision (MC, Captain of Crew and several more points)
3.: Zoro will beat Kaido after Luffy is beaten/gone/whatever -> Then he may go for a kill.

Zoro and luffy will beat kaido together, And zoro will deal the finishing blow which will kill kaido.

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

Like i said you are not debating you are ignoring evidence and thats head canon, Yes robin was an assassin but how is that relevant did she ever kill on panel? No, This is zoro literally killing on panel. You are not debating you are ignoring proof

I'm understanding evidence. I don't care about "Zoro literally killing on panel" because any honest thinker would see that killing an irrelevant magistrate to trigger a plot in the arc is completely different than killing a main villain as closure to the events. I'm indeed debating, but because I know how to debate and, therefore, I know I can't make simplistic arguments based on common denominators.

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]

I'm understanding evidence. I don't care about "Zoro literally killing on panel" because any honest thinker would see that killing an irrelevant magistrate to trigger a plot in the arc is completely different than killing a main villain as closure to the events. I'm indeed debating, but because I know how to debate and, therefore, I know I can't make simplistic arguments based on common denominators.

Thats irrelevant because you guys are making it just about kaido when the main topic here is Whether Zoro kills on panel or not, Which he does. Just because you dont believe zoro will kill kaido doesnt mean he doesnt kill which is the MAIN topic here.

And no you dont know how to debate. You only think you know how to debate, Thats the difference.

 

[Pantheos]

 

[ZoroSlaysDragonTuna]