Character Discussion Zoro the Phoenix of Wano and Kaido the Dragon.
- Thread starter I'mTired
- Start date
Aren't the Ying Yang animals the Seiryuu (east) and the Byakko (west)?
And isn't Suzaku (south), the "phoenix", not actually a phoenix? Despite being similar to the chinese phoenix in apperance, Suzaku is not actually a phoenix. At least that's what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Right or wrong, and despite I not agreeing with it, it's a very nice written thread. Enjoyed reading it.
And isn't Suzaku (south), the "phoenix", not actually a phoenix? Despite being similar to the chinese phoenix in apperance, Suzaku is not actually a phoenix. At least that's what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Right or wrong, and despite I not agreeing with it, it's a very nice written thread. Enjoyed reading it.
I can't not vouch for Suzuka being entirely based of Phoenix but a large part of Japan's culture is influenced by Chinese's one so we can't say it's impossible either. However from what I remember when reading Detective Conan, Suzuka has a high chance of being Phoenix.
Thanks a lot, nothing wrong with disagreeing with me. I appreciate your feedback!
Yes, in the East, they are usually if not always potrayed together. There are quite the amount of quotes, phrases, names coming from the couple of dragon and phoenix. Tiger is usually more associated with eagles from my knowledge. Yes again we can make a link from Zoro, a tiger canonnically, being associated with eagle, a call to phoenix ref imo.
Yes Zoro associated himself with a curse, but a curse upon his enemies, while being the call of fortune for his allies (notably, he initialized the stopping the Bird Cage plan which united all sides of the battle bar Donquixote Family).
I agree with the Vermilion Bird being associated with female, as in Yin, but in eastern stories, nothing wrong with men using Yin energy even if it's rare. Since you agreed on the "noble" part, I'll comment on the "elegant" side. Samurais are in the upper class of society, they are required to master many arts, traditional ceremonies, and such being elegant is nothing new about Zoro. The art of Iai is a form art only extraordinary samurai can perform. Not to mention the act of seppuku is also view as a ceremony, and Zoro was shown of capable of performing it even when seeing it for the first time.
For the use of fire, I only meant it as both animal has something in similar that they are known for using fire related powers, not their elements from mythos. Zoro have fire element is just a plus, if he does not have it, it doesn't impact much on my comparison as I do not go deep into that side.
Ye I understand, it's difficult so see how ZKK happening with the chance of it shadowing Luffy being high. But I did make a comparison to the Hobbit, what do you think of it? Also this thread is to brush aside the idea of Kaido not being Zoro's main oppenent more than making a point about ZKK, it was only at the end that my wanking side got the better of me ngl. xD
Thank you again, I really appreciate your feedbacks on this topic.
I use the Chinese comparison in this thread. And in Chinese mythology, as far as I know Yin and Yang are represented by Phoenix and Dragon. And in my opinion, the direction these animal represent does not contradict with what I intend to show as they are not totally the opposite like West (Tiger) and East (Dragon) but complement a little South (Phoenix) and East (Dragon).
I can't not vouch for Suzuka being entirely based of Phoenix but a large part of Japan's culture is influenced by Chinese's one so we can't say it's impossible either. However from what I remember when reading Detective Conan, Suzuka has a high chance of being Phoenix.
Thanks a lot, nothing wrong with disagreeing with me. I appreciate your feedback!
Yes, in the East, they are usually if not always potrayed together. There are quite the amount of quotes, phrases, names coming from the couple of dragon and phoenix. Tiger is usually more associated with eagles from my knowledge. Yes again we can make a link from Zoro, a tiger canonnically, being associated with eagle, a call to phoenix ref imo.
Yes Zoro associated himself with a curse, but a curse upon his enemies, while being the call of fortune for his allies (notably, he initialized the stopping the Bird Cage plan which united all sides of the battle bar Donquixote Family).
I agree with the Vermilion Bird being associated with female, as in Yin, but in eastern stories, nothing wrong with men using Yin energy even if it's rare. Since you agreed on the "noble" part, I'll comment on the "elegant" side. Samurais are in the upper class of society, they are required to master many arts, traditional ceremonies, and such being elegant is nothing new about Zoro. The art of Iai is a form art only extraordinary samurai can perform. Not to mention the act of seppuku is also view as a ceremony, and Zoro was shown of capable of performing it even when seeing it for the first time.
For the use of fire, I only meant it as both animal has something in similar that they are known for using fire related powers, not their elements from mythos. Zoro have fire element is just a plus, if he does not have it, it doesn't impact much on my comparison as I do not go deep into that side.
Ye I understand, it's difficult so see how ZKK happening with the chance of it shadowing Luffy being high. But I did make a comparison to the Hobbit, what do you think of it? Also this thread is to brush aside the idea of Kaido not being Zoro's main oppenent more than making a point about ZKK, it was only at the end that my wanking side got the better of me ngl. xD
Thank you again, I really appreciate your feedbacks on this topic.
I can't not vouch for Suzuka being entirely based of Phoenix but a large part of Japan's culture is influenced by Chinese's one so we can't say it's impossible either. However from what I remember when reading Detective Conan, Suzuka has a high chance of being Phoenix.
Thanks a lot, nothing wrong with disagreeing with me. I appreciate your feedback!
Yes, in the East, they are usually if not always potrayed together. There are quite the amount of quotes, phrases, names coming from the couple of dragon and phoenix. Tiger is usually more associated with eagles from my knowledge. Yes again we can make a link from Zoro, a tiger canonnically, being associated with eagle, a call to phoenix ref imo.
Yes Zoro associated himself with a curse, but a curse upon his enemies, while being the call of fortune for his allies (notably, he initialized the stopping the Bird Cage plan which united all sides of the battle bar Donquixote Family).
I agree with the Vermilion Bird being associated with female, as in Yin, but in eastern stories, nothing wrong with men using Yin energy even if it's rare. Since you agreed on the "noble" part, I'll comment on the "elegant" side. Samurais are in the upper class of society, they are required to master many arts, traditional ceremonies, and such being elegant is nothing new about Zoro. The art of Iai is a form art only extraordinary samurai can perform. Not to mention the act of seppuku is also view as a ceremony, and Zoro was shown of capable of performing it even when seeing it for the first time.
For the use of fire, I only meant it as both animal has something in similar that they are known for using fire related powers, not their elements from mythos. Zoro have fire element is just a plus, if he does not have it, it doesn't impact much on my comparison as I do not go deep into that side.
Ye I understand, it's difficult so see how ZKK happening with the chance of it shadowing Luffy being high. But I did make a comparison to the Hobbit, what do you think of it? Also this thread is to brush aside the idea of Kaido not being Zoro's main oppenent more than making a point about ZKK, it was only at the end that my wanking side got the better of me ngl. xD
Thank you again, I really appreciate your feedbacks on this topic.
But nice thread anyways
Damn Oda and his foreshadowing 
Nah it's good have diverse opinions, the only problem is that those in disagreement do not offer their reasons.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
Thank you. And ye I agree on Zoro being the tiger as Oda show that to us on chapter 651 cover page. But that's why I said the phoenix is a better pick only for this arc, as it symbolize the theme the most.
3 votes on each of the 3 options resulting in 33.3% for each.
Ruined already.
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Ruined already.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
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I personally think Zoro is the tiger.
But nice thread anyways
But nice thread anyways
Damn Oda and his foreshadowing
Nah it's good have diverse opinions, the only problem is that those in disagreement do not offer their reasons.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
Thank you. And ye I agree on Zoro being the tiger as Oda show that to us on chapter 651 cover page. But that's why I said the phoenix is a better pick only for this arc, as it symbolize the theme the most.
Nah it's good have diverse opinions, the only problem is that those in disagreement do not offer their reasons.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
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Thank you. And ye I agree on Zoro being the tiger as Oda show that to us on chapter 651 cover page. But that's why I said the phoenix is a better pick only for this arc, as it symbolize the theme the most.
sanjis the only one who actually fits the vermillion bird. Zoro is the tiger. Zoro can’t be both because it wouldn’t make sense
Lots of talk about Byakko, Suzaku, Seiryu.
Where's the Genbu love?
Where's the Genbu love?
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I am not debating on wether Sanji fits the animal or not, but about you using that as an argument like it is canon/confirmed against my take while not offering your defends on your take. And you said that Zoro's a tiger in canon, I said I agree to that, even in my op, but the phoenix is a better pick for this arc alone because of the reasons I listed.
And Sanji's animal in canon is a bighorn sheep, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be both. See how that sounds?
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I use the Chinese comparison in this thread. And in Chinese mythology, as far as I know Yin and Yang are represented by Phoenix and Dragon. And in my opinion, the direction these animal represent does not contradict with what I intend to show as they are not totally the opposite like West (Tiger) and East (Dragon) but complement a little South (Phoenix) and East (Dragon).
I can't not vouch for Suzuka being entirely based of Phoenix but a large part of Japan's culture is influenced by Chinese's one so we can't say it's impossible either. However from what I remember when reading Detective Conan, Suzuka has a high chance of being Phoenix.
Thanks a lot, nothing wrong with disagreeing with me. I appreciate your feedback!
Yes, in the East, they are usually if not always potrayed together. There are quite the amount of quotes, phrases, names coming from the couple of dragon and phoenix. Tiger is usually more associated with eagles from my knowledge. Yes again we can make a link from Zoro, a tiger canonnically, being associated with eagle, a call to phoenix ref imo.
Yes Zoro associated himself with a curse, but a curse upon his enemies, while being the call of fortune for his allies (notably, he initialized the stopping the Bird Cage plan which united all sides of the battle bar Donquixote Family).
I agree with the Vermilion Bird being associated with female, as in Yin, but in eastern stories, nothing wrong with men using Yin energy even if it's rare. Since you agreed on the "noble" part, I'll comment on the "elegant" side. Samurais are in the upper class of society, they are required to master many arts, traditional ceremonies, and such being elegant is nothing new about Zoro. The art of Iai is a form art only extraordinary samurai can perform. Not to mention the act of seppuku is also view as a ceremony, and Zoro was shown of capable of performing it even when seeing it for the first time.
For the use of fire, I only meant it as both animal has something in similar that they are known for using fire related powers, not their elements from mythos. Zoro have fire element is just a plus, if he does not have it, it doesn't impact much on my comparison as I do not go deep into that side.
Ye I understand, it's difficult so see how ZKK happening with the chance of it shadowing Luffy being high. But I did make a comparison to the Hobbit, what do you think of it? Also this thread is to brush aside the idea of Kaido not being Zoro's main oppenent more than making a point about ZKK, it was only at the end that my wanking side got the better of me ngl. xD
Thank you again, I really appreciate your feedbacks on this topic.
I can't not vouch for Suzuka being entirely based of Phoenix but a large part of Japan's culture is influenced by Chinese's one so we can't say it's impossible either. However from what I remember when reading Detective Conan, Suzuka has a high chance of being Phoenix.
Thanks a lot, nothing wrong with disagreeing with me. I appreciate your feedback!
Yes, in the East, they are usually if not always potrayed together. There are quite the amount of quotes, phrases, names coming from the couple of dragon and phoenix. Tiger is usually more associated with eagles from my knowledge. Yes again we can make a link from Zoro, a tiger canonnically, being associated with eagle, a call to phoenix ref imo.
Yes Zoro associated himself with a curse, but a curse upon his enemies, while being the call of fortune for his allies (notably, he initialized the stopping the Bird Cage plan which united all sides of the battle bar Donquixote Family).
I agree with the Vermilion Bird being associated with female, as in Yin, but in eastern stories, nothing wrong with men using Yin energy even if it's rare. Since you agreed on the "noble" part, I'll comment on the "elegant" side. Samurais are in the upper class of society, they are required to master many arts, traditional ceremonies, and such being elegant is nothing new about Zoro. The art of Iai is a form art only extraordinary samurai can perform. Not to mention the act of seppuku is also view as a ceremony, and Zoro was shown of capable of performing it even when seeing it for the first time.
For the use of fire, I only meant it as both animal has something in similar that they are known for using fire related powers, not their elements from mythos. Zoro have fire element is just a plus, if he does not have it, it doesn't impact much on my comparison as I do not go deep into that side.
Ye I understand, it's difficult so see how ZKK happening with the chance of it shadowing Luffy being high. But I did make a comparison to the Hobbit, what do you think of it? Also this thread is to brush aside the idea of Kaido not being Zoro's main oppenent more than making a point about ZKK, it was only at the end that my wanking side got the better of me ngl. xD
Thank you again, I really appreciate your feedbacks on this topic.
Just the end.
I also think Kaido is Zoro's main fight. But is also Luffy's, Kidd's, Killer's, and Law's. I advocate in the sense that the 5v2 WILL remain a 5v2.
I also advocate that Zoro will have a brief 1v1 against Kaido, occasion during which he will open the scar and be acknowledged.
but I also advocate for the 4 CoC clash.
Who knows how Oda will develop this 5v2. I dont think he invested a lot of panel time on Kidd for nothing.
But as I said before, regardless of the outcome, I just hope for Sanji 1v1 a Calamity. Whatever happens on the roof, happens.
I'm severely sleep deprived right now, so I will not address everything.
Just the end.
I also think Kaido is Zoro's main fight. But is also Luffy's, Kidd's, Killer's, and Law's. I advocate in the sense that the 5v2 WILL remain a 5v2.
I also advocate that Zoro will have a brief 1v1 against Kaido, occasion during which he will open the scar and be acknowledged.
but I also advocate for the 4 CoC clash.
Who knows how Oda will develop this 5v2. I dont think he invested a lot of panel time on Kidd for nothing.
But as I said before, regardless of the outcome, I just hope for Sanji 1v1 a Calamity. Whatever happens on the roof, happens.
Just the end.
I also think Kaido is Zoro's main fight. But is also Luffy's, Kidd's, Killer's, and Law's. I advocate in the sense that the 5v2 WILL remain a 5v2.
I also advocate that Zoro will have a brief 1v1 against Kaido, occasion during which he will open the scar and be acknowledged.
but I also advocate for the 4 CoC clash.
Who knows how Oda will develop this 5v2. I dont think he invested a lot of panel time on Kidd for nothing.
But as I said before, regardless of the outcome, I just hope for Sanji 1v1 a Calamity. Whatever happens on the roof, happens.
Damn Oda and his foreshadowing
Nah it's good have diverse opinions, the only problem is that those in disagreement do not offer their reasons.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
Thank you. And ye I agree on Zoro being the tiger as Oda show that to us on chapter 651 cover page. But that's why I said the phoenix is a better pick only for this arc, as it symbolize the theme the most.
Nah it's good have diverse opinions, the only problem is that those in disagreement do not offer their reasons.
Sanji is canonnically a bighorn sheep as shown in the cover page of chapter 651. Don't take your supposed "leaks" with no confirmed backup to use as an argument.
Yes that is a good remark, I really forgot about that detail. What more, Ryuma was the only zombie in TB not defeated by salt! Oda made sure to highlight that! Another big evidence of the second coming of Ryuma. Thank you! :cheers:
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Thank you. And ye I agree on Zoro being the tiger as Oda show that to us on chapter 651 cover page. But that's why I said the phoenix is a better pick only for this arc, as it symbolize the theme the most.
Lmao.
I know we are talking about that cover page or whatever where's there's a santoryuu tiger using bamboos, but where did Oda say Zoro was a shark? SBS i presume? Did he talk about the others, and the reasoning behind all of them? Would be cool to include it here so we can analyze it further.
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I actually think only Zoro will have a 1v1 moment.
Luffy and Kidd are going to take down Kaido like Goku and Frieza taking down Jiren.
The other 3 will take down BM and be knocked by Kaido right after.
What MIGHT happen is Luffy and Kidd going down, Kaido standing up, then Zoro coming with one of his random one shots teleports and finishes Kaido.
Wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldnt be surprised either.
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@I'mTired
Now I remembered something.
How can Zoro be Suzaku, the opposite of Seiryu, if Oda himself said that if Zoro would get a DF, he would get the Seiryu one?
So Oda himself sees Zoro as more like an Azure Dragon himself, then a Vermilion Bird.
What you think about this?
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Sanji is literally a GOAT.
Lmao.
I know we are talking about that cover page or whatever where's there's a santoryuu tiger using bamboos, but where did Oda say Zoro was a shark? SBS i presume? Did he talk about the others, and the reasoning behind all of them? Would be cool to include it here so we can analyze it further.
I actually think only Zoro will have a 1v1 moment.
Luffy and Kidd are going to take down Kaido like Goku and Frieza taking down Jiren.
The other 3 will take down BM and be knocked by Kaido right after.
What MIGHT happen is Luffy and Kidd going down, Kaido standing up, then Zoro coming with one of his random one shots teleports and finishes Kaido.
Wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldnt be surprised either.
@I'mTired
Now I remembered something.
How can Zoro be Suzaku, the opposite of Seiryu, if Oda himself said that if Zoro would get a DF, he would get the Seiryu one?
So Oda himself sees Zoro as more like an Azure Dragon himself, then a Vermilion Bird.
What you think about this?
Lmao.
I know we are talking about that cover page or whatever where's there's a santoryuu tiger using bamboos, but where did Oda say Zoro was a shark? SBS i presume? Did he talk about the others, and the reasoning behind all of them? Would be cool to include it here so we can analyze it further.
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I actually think only Zoro will have a 1v1 moment.
Luffy and Kidd are going to take down Kaido like Goku and Frieza taking down Jiren.
The other 3 will take down BM and be knocked by Kaido right after.
What MIGHT happen is Luffy and Kidd going down, Kaido standing up, then Zoro coming with one of his random one shots teleports and finishes Kaido.
Wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldnt be surprised either.
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@I'mTired
Now I remembered something.
How can Zoro be Suzaku, the opposite of Seiryu, if Oda himself said that if Zoro would get a DF, he would get the Seiryu one?
So Oda himself sees Zoro as more like an Azure Dragon himself, then a Vermilion Bird.
What you think about this?
Sanji is literally a GOAT.
Lmao.
I know we are talking about that cover page or whatever where's there's a santoryuu tiger using bamboos, but where did Oda say Zoro was a shark? SBS i presume? Did he talk about the others, and the reasoning behind all of them? Would be cool to include it here so we can analyze it further.
I actually think only Zoro will have a 1v1 moment.
Luffy and Kidd are going to take down Kaido like Goku and Frieza taking down Jiren.
The other 3 will take down BM and be knocked by Kaido right after.
What MIGHT happen is Luffy and Kidd going down, Kaido standing up, then Zoro coming with one of his random one shots teleports and finishes Kaido.
Wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldnt be surprised either.
@I'mTired
Now I remembered something.
How can Zoro be Suzaku, the opposite of Seiryu, if Oda himself said that if Zoro would get a DF, he would get the Seiryu one?
So Oda himself sees Zoro as more like an Azure Dragon himself, then a Vermilion Bird.
What you think about this?
Lmao.
I know we are talking about that cover page or whatever where's there's a santoryuu tiger using bamboos, but where did Oda say Zoro was a shark? SBS i presume? Did he talk about the others, and the reasoning behind all of them? Would be cool to include it here so we can analyze it further.
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I actually think only Zoro will have a 1v1 moment.
Luffy and Kidd are going to take down Kaido like Goku and Frieza taking down Jiren.
The other 3 will take down BM and be knocked by Kaido right after.
What MIGHT happen is Luffy and Kidd going down, Kaido standing up, then Zoro coming with one of his random one shots teleports and finishes Kaido.
Wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldnt be surprised either.
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@I'mTired
Now I remembered something.
How can Zoro be Suzaku, the opposite of Seiryu, if Oda himself said that if Zoro would get a DF, he would get the Seiryu one?
So Oda himself sees Zoro as more like an Azure Dragon himself, then a Vermilion Bird.
What you think about this?
Zoro is the tiger because A tiger figure representing Zoro was shown on Odas desk.
Yes, but still gonna give Zoro the Seiryu power. That would be his "opposite", if we take into consideration the arguments presented on this thread. That's why I brought it up.
Wouldn't it contradict with this line of thought?
The Azure Dragon reigns over the Tiger zodiac sign.
Coincidence? :P
Wouldn't it contradict with this line of thought?
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The Azure Dragon reigns over the Tiger zodiac sign.
Coincidence? :P
So you're not gonna address to why Oda potrayed Sanji as a goat? Can you show me something concretes to go with your take on Sanji being the phoenix?
Glad we agree on the topic of Zoro's main fight since it's the main point of the thread. As for how the roof fight is gonna unfold. I agree that what happens will happen.
First of all, like the other have said, Oda would give it to Zoro's sword. And I think that I didn't just only prove the oppositions between Seiryu and Suzaku, but their similarities also. The two animals complements each other. What the phoenix has over the dragon in favor of Zoro's portrayal is the rebirth ability. And the more non favorable point of Zoro if he was to be compared to be a dragon is the element of stagnation. The two above mentioned reasons are the biggest reasons why Zoro shouldn't be portrayed as a dragon in this arc to me personally.
Ye I remember that as well, but the wikia lists it as a bighorn sheep for whatever reason so I was just going with that because I'm not knowledgeable on animal's names. It's "bélier" in French, and it think it's cooler sounding than goat.
I'm severely sleep deprived right now, so I will not address everything.
Just the end.
I also think Kaido is Zoro's main fight. But is also Luffy's, Kidd's, Killer's, and Law's. I advocate in the sense that the 5v2 WILL remain a 5v2.
I also advocate that Zoro will have a brief 1v1 against Kaido, occasion during which he will open the scar and be acknowledged.
but I also advocate for the 4 CoC clash.
Who knows how Oda will develop this 5v2. I dont think he invested a lot of panel time on Kidd for nothing.
But as I said before, regardless of the outcome, I just hope for Sanji 1v1 a Calamity. Whatever happens on the roof, happens.
Just the end.
I also think Kaido is Zoro's main fight. But is also Luffy's, Kidd's, Killer's, and Law's. I advocate in the sense that the 5v2 WILL remain a 5v2.
I also advocate that Zoro will have a brief 1v1 against Kaido, occasion during which he will open the scar and be acknowledged.
but I also advocate for the 4 CoC clash.
Who knows how Oda will develop this 5v2. I dont think he invested a lot of panel time on Kidd for nothing.
But as I said before, regardless of the outcome, I just hope for Sanji 1v1 a Calamity. Whatever happens on the roof, happens.
First of all, like the other have said, Oda would give it to Zoro's sword. And I think that I didn't just only prove the oppositions between Seiryu and Suzaku, but their similarities also. The two animals complements each other. What the phoenix has over the dragon in favor of Zoro's portrayal is the rebirth ability. And the more non favorable point of Zoro if he was to be compared to be a dragon is the element of stagnation. The two above mentioned reasons are the biggest reasons why Zoro shouldn't be portrayed as a dragon in this arc to me personally.
Ye I remember that as well, but the wikia lists it as a bighorn sheep for whatever reason so I was just going with that because I'm not knowledgeable on animal's names. It's "bélier" in French, and it think it's cooler sounding than goat.
