Character Discussion Zoro vs Luffy as characters — Zoro's Success
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Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Didn't even read the post didn't you DOODLE BOB?
Well I have to hand it to you @LuthonTheDragDown , you sure are able to whip up a good essay on whatever characters you damn well please whenever you feel like it. :cheers:
Luffy's goal has always been rather vague along with being unintentionally petty and stupid since even the beginning of the manga.
We are over 1000 chapters into a pirate manga where we still do not know why the protagonist even wanted to be a pirate to begin with. 
Luffy motivation can literally be summed up as such.
Zoro's noble goal shits all over this nonsense. 
On a side note, @Admiral Lee Hung you can end S&A now. TAC is (for now?) wanking Zoro when the forum needed his funk the most and with the latest chapters, Zoro fans have won the internet.
Luffy's goal has always been rather vague along with being unintentionally petty and stupid since even the beginning of the manga.
Just putting the contents of a post of mine here since the thread it was on got locked and I can no longer quote it. Besides, this thread looks like it is need of some activity.
I find one of the biggest problems with Luffy’s character in general, is that his motivation is not truly fleshed out and at times seems rather hollow.
His goal is to be Pirate King because of two supposed reasons;
I) The promise between him and Shanks.
II) Luffy perceives the Pirate King as the individual with the most freedom.
Before this, Luffy only stated that he had intentions of becoming a pirate in general, a pirate under Shanks at that.
This means that Luffy basically declared his intention to be Pirate King because Shanks refused to allow him on his crew and triggered him.
As for Shanks, he only states that Luffy should return the hat to him when he is “a great pirate”.
In short, Luffy’s motivation regarding his desire to be Pirate King is actually quite shallow. The promise between him and Shanks also fails to establish why Luffy desired to be a pirate in the first place.
Ultimately, the first thing that would need to be fixed before anything else is a proper, established character motivation and an explanation as to why Luffy desired to be a pirate from a young age and why he desires to be the Pirate King specifically.
Edit: The spoiler tags are flipping out on me and I have no idea why. Lol.
I find one of the biggest problems with Luffy’s character in general, is that his motivation is not truly fleshed out and at times seems rather hollow.
His goal is to be Pirate King because of two supposed reasons;
I) The promise between him and Shanks.
II) Luffy perceives the Pirate King as the individual with the most freedom.
The problem with reason number one is that Luffy made the declaration of becoming the Pirate King before he made the promise to Shanks.
As for Shanks, he only states that Luffy should return the hat to him when he is “a great pirate”.
The greatest problem with this supposed reason is very simple.
At no point has Luffy ever established his opinion on what exactly he perceives “freedom” to be.
If one were to generalize the concept of “freedom” then you would find two basic types.
I) Freedom from. This is the desire to leave behind that which one deems obstructive to one’s happiness/quality of life in some way.
II) Freedom to. This is the desire to do what one seeks to achieve in life which in turn will contribute to one’s happiness/quality of life.
These may seem similar but they are different.
For example, through being a pirate, Luffy is no longer bound by any law of any nation thus he has freedom to do anything he pleases.
However, in becoming a pirate, Luffy is now unwelcome in most civilized territories and is consistently hounded by the Navy and bounty hunters. As captain he is also responsible for the burden of protecting his crew and giving the final order on what course of action to take. Benn Beckman pointed this out to Luffy (albeit somewhat jokingly since Luffy was a child at the time).
In short, Luffy has denied himself freedom from both increased responsibility and the entire judicial/law enforcement system.
The problem with all this is that all Luffy sought to do is have nakama and adventure which he could have done without being a pirate.
So why did Luffy desire to become a pirate?
When he lived with the mountain bandits he was completely free from any and all typical societal responsibilities. The World Government did not even know of his existence. So what was there for him to seek freedom from?
All Luffy has ever stated to desire (beside the tenuous goal of becoming the Pirate King) is a loyal crew and adventure. The thing is, there is no law or societal responsibility preventing Luffy from doing this legally.
For example, Montblanc Noland was a famous adventurer, funded by governments to find new land with the assistance of a loyal crew. In fact, even becoming a Marine would have allowed for both adventure and a loyal crew. So what freedom to was Luffy seeking?
Again, why did he desire to become a pirate?
Also, why does he perceive the Pirate King to be the “man with the most freedom” when seeking such a title means upholding a duty to crush any challengers to the title (of which there are many) as well as being the most wanted man in the world thus being hunted down with extreme prejudice by all law enforcement organisations?
If one were to generalize the concept of “freedom” then you would find two basic types.
I) Freedom from. This is the desire to leave behind that which one deems obstructive to one’s happiness/quality of life in some way.
II) Freedom to. This is the desire to do what one seeks to achieve in life which in turn will contribute to one’s happiness/quality of life.
These may seem similar but they are different.
For example, through being a pirate, Luffy is no longer bound by any law of any nation thus he has freedom to do anything he pleases.
However, in becoming a pirate, Luffy is now unwelcome in most civilized territories and is consistently hounded by the Navy and bounty hunters. As captain he is also responsible for the burden of protecting his crew and giving the final order on what course of action to take. Benn Beckman pointed this out to Luffy (albeit somewhat jokingly since Luffy was a child at the time).
The problem with all this is that all Luffy sought to do is have nakama and adventure which he could have done without being a pirate.
So why did Luffy desire to become a pirate?
When he lived with the mountain bandits he was completely free from any and all typical societal responsibilities. The World Government did not even know of his existence. So what was there for him to seek freedom from?
All Luffy has ever stated to desire (beside the tenuous goal of becoming the Pirate King) is a loyal crew and adventure. The thing is, there is no law or societal responsibility preventing Luffy from doing this legally.
For example, Montblanc Noland was a famous adventurer, funded by governments to find new land with the assistance of a loyal crew. In fact, even becoming a Marine would have allowed for both adventure and a loyal crew. So what freedom to was Luffy seeking?
Again, why did he desire to become a pirate?
Also, why does he perceive the Pirate King to be the “man with the most freedom” when seeking such a title means upholding a duty to crush any challengers to the title (of which there are many) as well as being the most wanted man in the world thus being hunted down with extreme prejudice by all law enforcement organisations?
Edit: The spoiler tags are flipping out on me and I have no idea why. Lol.
Luffy motivation can literally be summed up as such.
On a side note, @Admiral Lee Hung you can end S&A now. TAC is (for now?) wanking Zoro when the forum needed his funk the most and with the latest chapters, Zoro fans have won the internet.
Well I have to hand it to you @LuthonTheDragDown , you sure are able to whip up a good essay on whatever characters you damn well please whenever you feel like it. :cheers:
Luffy's goal has always been rather vague along with being unintentionally petty and stupid since even the beginning of the manga.
We are over 1000 chapters into a pirate manga where we still do not know why the protagonist even wanted to be a pirate to begin with.
Luffy motivation can literally be summed up as such.
Zoro's noble goal shits all over this nonsense.
On a side note, @Admiral Lee Hung you can end S&A now. TAC is (for now?) wanking Zoro when the forum needed his funk the most and with the latest chapters, Zoro fans have won the internet.
Luffy's goal has always been rather vague along with being unintentionally petty and stupid since even the beginning of the manga.
We are over 1000 chapters into a pirate manga where we still do not know why the protagonist even wanted to be a pirate to begin with.
Luffy motivation can literally be summed up as such.
On a side note, @Admiral Lee Hung you can end S&A now. TAC is (for now?) wanking Zoro when the forum needed his funk the most and with the latest chapters, Zoro fans have won the internet.
Luffy used to be "a kid that wants to climb to the top".
Little by little he became "the chosen one". Everyone around him is important to some extent, so he automatically becomes important too.
Grandfather? Hero of Navy.
Father? Most Wanted Man in the World.
Brother? Commander of the strongest man's crew.
The "D"? Destined to fulfill some ancient prophecy.
Laugh Tale? Actually became a place with a timed prophecy, instead of a really hard place to find with a poggers treasure.
Artificial ways to keep the character in the grand scheme of the world. I never really liked it too much because it felt "cheesy".
Mix all of this with 20+ years of the same character, with no signs of change, despite ALL that he endured (losing his crew at Sabaody, losing Ace, and so on), 0 maturing, many things that once were positives for the character, start to feel like negatives, simply because they shouldn't exist anymore.
About Zoro, I agree with your analysis, but I stray away after timeskip. Not after a single moment, but a piling of little narrative decisions that made me feel less invested on the character as a whole. Being a strong character in a adventure/battle shounen, to me, simply means this character can have more panel time to contribute to the story, wether he accomplishes it or not, in a satisfactory manner, is yet to be seen. In Zoro's case, his progression changed a little bit. He is not really "learning" anything new. Right now his progression is tied to forging permanent black blades. That's it. Enma was just an artificial "powerup" to replace Shuusui, that was ALREADY blackened. What I dont like about Enma, is a few things: 1- I hate Oden's character. Seriously. Nothing tied to this character seems good to me. It's like a contaminated apple that spreads its venom to the rest of the fruit basket. The scabbards feel like less sympathetic Shandians, Hyori and Momonosuke are retarded and annoying respectively, Oda decided to put SO MUCH importance in Wano in particular, that I simply can't bring myself to actually care about it. 2- Nidai Kitetsu was introduced at the beginning of the arc. Zoro has shown interest in it. Zoro was never "yo, I want the most broken ass swords in the world", he was always more like "yo, that's a fine sword, and I need a sword. So I'm gonna take it". It was like that for Sandai, Yubashiri and finally Shusuui. Him showing interest in Nidai, and saying "Ok, I will return Shusuui, but I want that Nidai Kitetsu that I saw earlier", he are stuck with the "ONLY ONE sword to have injured Kaido", despite Ame-no-Habakiri being in the picture, already wanking this piece of garbage blade.
With Enma out of the way, back to the character itself. Zoro came back from the timeskip extremely strong. Not a bad thing per se, but it starts to feel a little forced when you consider that other characters simply didn't have near the same growth, wether it be for the sake of gags, hyping other enemies, or simply keep doing the same powerup asspulling every arc. Zoro is THE ONLY SH, that felt like actually trained for 2 years, instead of 2 weeks. It gives the vibe of piling up feats for a single character in a similar way happens with Luffy. Besides, he is kinda back to simply wanting to be "the strongest there is". All the elements like Kuina's promise, willing to put his dream aside for making Luffy PK all feel non-existent. He is back to prior Thriller Bark, but now he is more overpower.
While I dislike Luffy's LACK of progression, with Zoro I feel there was actually a REGRESSION. That's why I can't bring myself to care about him much. Him killing 10 yonkos by himself is just...."ok, he is strong. What else is there?"
At least I still like his gags, because they contrast very well with his "serious and smug" attitude. And they are not some japanese pervert fetish.
Little by little he became "the chosen one". Everyone around him is important to some extent, so he automatically becomes important too.
Grandfather? Hero of Navy.
Father? Most Wanted Man in the World.
Brother? Commander of the strongest man's crew.
The "D"? Destined to fulfill some ancient prophecy.
Laugh Tale? Actually became a place with a timed prophecy, instead of a really hard place to find with a poggers treasure.
Artificial ways to keep the character in the grand scheme of the world. I never really liked it too much because it felt "cheesy".
Mix all of this with 20+ years of the same character, with no signs of change, despite ALL that he endured (losing his crew at Sabaody, losing Ace, and so on), 0 maturing, many things that once were positives for the character, start to feel like negatives, simply because they shouldn't exist anymore.
About Zoro, I agree with your analysis, but I stray away after timeskip. Not after a single moment, but a piling of little narrative decisions that made me feel less invested on the character as a whole. Being a strong character in a adventure/battle shounen, to me, simply means this character can have more panel time to contribute to the story, wether he accomplishes it or not, in a satisfactory manner, is yet to be seen. In Zoro's case, his progression changed a little bit. He is not really "learning" anything new. Right now his progression is tied to forging permanent black blades. That's it. Enma was just an artificial "powerup" to replace Shuusui, that was ALREADY blackened. What I dont like about Enma, is a few things: 1- I hate Oden's character. Seriously. Nothing tied to this character seems good to me. It's like a contaminated apple that spreads its venom to the rest of the fruit basket. The scabbards feel like less sympathetic Shandians, Hyori and Momonosuke are retarded and annoying respectively, Oda decided to put SO MUCH importance in Wano in particular, that I simply can't bring myself to actually care about it. 2- Nidai Kitetsu was introduced at the beginning of the arc. Zoro has shown interest in it. Zoro was never "yo, I want the most broken ass swords in the world", he was always more like "yo, that's a fine sword, and I need a sword. So I'm gonna take it". It was like that for Sandai, Yubashiri and finally Shusuui. Him showing interest in Nidai, and saying "Ok, I will return Shusuui, but I want that Nidai Kitetsu that I saw earlier", he are stuck with the "ONLY ONE sword to have injured Kaido", despite Ame-no-Habakiri being in the picture, already wanking this piece of garbage blade.
With Enma out of the way, back to the character itself. Zoro came back from the timeskip extremely strong. Not a bad thing per se, but it starts to feel a little forced when you consider that other characters simply didn't have near the same growth, wether it be for the sake of gags, hyping other enemies, or simply keep doing the same powerup asspulling every arc. Zoro is THE ONLY SH, that felt like actually trained for 2 years, instead of 2 weeks. It gives the vibe of piling up feats for a single character in a similar way happens with Luffy. Besides, he is kinda back to simply wanting to be "the strongest there is". All the elements like Kuina's promise, willing to put his dream aside for making Luffy PK all feel non-existent. He is back to prior Thriller Bark, but now he is more overpower.
While I dislike Luffy's LACK of progression, with Zoro I feel there was actually a REGRESSION. That's why I can't bring myself to care about him much. Him killing 10 yonkos by himself is just...."ok, he is strong. What else is there?"
At least I still like his gags, because they contrast very well with his "serious and smug" attitude. And they are not some japanese pervert fetish.
T
what you name as Luffys weakpoints are his strongest selling points to me.
why must there be another motivation than a desire of "being free"?
why does a character need to have a life changing experience to come to the conclusion that he wants to be free?
Luffy is supposed to be an idiot. hes supposed to no care. hes always been selfish. and hes pure.
his goals are what he believes life should be. living it freely how you wish.
I like that fact that he simply is this way without concerning himself with the good and bad things of the world.
it adds to the character, for me. its what makes him different to most others.
Luffy just values freedom. no other reason required. he does not need the outside world to show him how important freedom is.
that makes it a more powerful message.
why must there be another motivation than a desire of "being free"?
why does a character need to have a life changing experience to come to the conclusion that he wants to be free?
Luffy is supposed to be an idiot. hes supposed to no care. hes always been selfish. and hes pure.
his goals are what he believes life should be. living it freely how you wish.
I like that fact that he simply is this way without concerning himself with the good and bad things of the world.
it adds to the character, for me. its what makes him different to most others.
Luffy just values freedom. no other reason required. he does not need the outside world to show him how important freedom is.
that makes it a more powerful message.