Introduction
I've gone on a frenzy over the past week in the spoiler and chapter threads wanking Zoro and his feat in Chapter 1009 to the Moon. It's been a bit unhealthy, and I should probably take a breather and calm down. However, that justifies taking a few days off, not the several weeks/months I intend.
Why I Feel a Break is Necessary
There's a certain current of resistance and downplay, that I found just mind breaking to engage with, and extrapolating this over the rest of the Rooftop fight, I just gave up. The prospect of going through this every week is disheartening.
I don't want to deal with what's currently happening.
I feel like the reactions to Zoro blocking Hakai from a large contingent of the community hasn't been:
"Oh my fucking God, Zoro stopped a finisher combination attack of two Yonkou, he must have top tier defence", but:
"These characters are stronger than Zoro, so they should be able to pull it off too".
Many people basically left Zoro wherever they had him in their headcanon, downplayed the feat as much as they could get away with and adjusted everyone else upwards.
The claim that Luffy could do it for example is insane.
Zoro ordered all the other 4 Supernova to run away:
Zoro clearly did not think the rest of the 4 Supernova combined could block Hakai.
The Yonkou were shocked out of their mind that Hakai was stopped:
The Yonkou did not think it was possible for even the 5 Supernova working together to block Hakai.
The feat Zoro pulled off where he held back the attack for a few seconds is a feat that neither Zoro nor the Rocks Duo believed the other Supernova working together could accomplish.
The implication is that even working together, Luffy + Kidd + Killer + Law get wiped out by Hakai without slowing it down enough to escape.
That is what the manga is showing, yet people want to argue that Luffy can?
Because?
Because they believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro? Because they've capped Zoro at a certain level and so whenever Zoro pulls off a feat, they don't raise his level, they downplay the hell out of the feat and assume everyone else can pull it off.
As I said elsewhere:
Earnestness
So I take powerscaling very seriously. I put a lot of effort into my engagement with the OP fandom here. Maybe not all of my participation is welcome, maybe tagging so many people is highly obnoxious, maybe my Zoro wank is stifling, maybe I'm "toxic".
Whatever other flaws I have, I'm generally earnest. The vast majority of the time, I try to be straightforward in my engagement (even though I do have my biases. I may pull a stunt once in a while, make the occasional troll post), but > 95% of my content in the One Piece section is my sincere beliefs.
Conclusions
This sheer stubbornness in the fandom regarding their preconceptions is just not something I feel like I'm willing to debate with.
If you're going to outright ignore the manga because it doesn't fit your headcanons, then I'm not participating.
Maybe I'll return to One Piece discussions after some months, perhaps when there's more context to go off of and folks have been able to better digest what happened, but for now, I'm done.
Hey, maybe I'm crazy: "You're overreacting", "this feat is inconsistent", "this is an outlier", "you're missing something very basic that others have seen". Those are all hypotheses that merit consideration. I can't say I've particularly given that the adequate consideration, but they are something that I'm aware of.
Either I'm wrong (in which case stepping back and seeing how well my position ages is advisable), or I'm right (in which case I currently cannot healthily engage with the fandom). Regardless of how things shake out, there's like a sheer gap in how things have been processed that I feel is currently insurmountable.
I also don't want to deal with the same pigheaded stubbornness every time Zoro gets a feat that shatters people's headcanons.
I don't really enjoy the Ws and Ls games either, so the trolling and countertrolling is not for me.
I think it would be best to return in several months, when the fandom has had time to process things. I might skip the Rooftop battle entirely, I'm not sure yet.
Addenda on Reconciliation
Aah, it's not people disagreeing with my takes that made me give up. I mean I've been debating One Piece on and off for 6 years, I'm used to disagreement. There's nothing fundamentally new about disagreement that makes me unwilling to continue. It wasn't that we didn't agree per se.
I don't want to rehash what I said earlier, and I didn't go over it in detail, but certain discussions I've had on here of recent, just really made me give up. It's not pettiness. I'm not trying to spite the community or anything.
I'm just overly invested in the fandom, and I take debating very seriously.
Discussing recent stuff with several people has been very, very unfulfilling. It was emotionally draining, and I guess I approached with the mindset, that: "even if we have different interpretations, personal biases and such, we are reading the same manga, so reconciliation is in theory possible". I strived for that reconciliation and to reach like a mutual understanding.
It felt like that was not possible for some members. That it didn't really matter what happened, they already had very strong preconceptions that they were unwilling to let go of.
Maybe it's because I've invested so much effort, time, energy and had such a genuine belief that we can reconcile. Maybe it's because I don't really believe in agreeing to disagree (I pause discussions for more evidence, but for people I engage with at length: "agree to disagree" is a foreign concept to me (exceptions are when I know someone has a firm agenda they wouldn't let go of, in which case I generally don't engage).
Like I genuinely do not believe that reasonable people should agree to disagree. I can't stress how core this is to my philosophy, but it generally is. In principle, reconciliation is possible. Sometimes we pause debates due to insufficient evidence. Sometimes we may shelve debates due to time and other constraints, but reconciliation of our beliefs are generally possible. That is a fundamental underlying principle of my world view.
I wouldn't say I had a mental breakdown or anything, but after a while I just gave up. It felt futile. I guess my core beliefs underpinning my engagement with this community (that reconciliation is possible among people engaging in good faith) were shattered in a very brutal fashion. It was mentally harrowing.
After going through this for a few days, I really, really, really do not want this experience again. I really don't want to have to deal with this again. Like this was just a very unpleasant experience for me. I cannot stress how much this has just been a painful experience to me.
This feeling that no matter what happens, no matter what evidence is presented, no matter what arguments are raised, that so, so and so are unwilling to change their mind. That reconciliation is not just in practice impossible, it's in theory impossible.
That was a mind breaking, extremely unpleasant experience. These last few days genuinely broke me.
Discussing a manga shouldn't be unpleasant. If every week is going to be like this, then I'll rather just sit out the Rooftop fight. I don't want to go through this again. It was soul crushing.
And because of how painful this entire experience has been, it's made me feel like I need a long breather from this community.
Whenever I return, I'll probably return to discussing One Piece with only a couple dozen people. I am not ready to let go of my belief that reconciliation should be possible, so I'll probably just be more selective with who I engage with in future.
"Stop taking things so seriously" is sage advice, but I wouldn't be putting so much effort into the fandom if I didn't take things seriously. If I was just playing around, I wouldn't go to the lengths I've been to. This isn't justification for my actions, but it is an explanation of "why".
Tl;Dr
I got the perception that many people have strong preconceptions about how strong Zoro is allowed to be, and that regardless of the feats Zoro accomplished, they were unwilling to let go of their preconceptions.
This made me feel like debating for Zoro was pointless, so I decided to pause it.
I asked @Bogard and @Pantheos for an Udon ban for six months (I'll probably extend it as needed). Until the ban goes into effect, I'll probably reply as needed.
I've gone on a frenzy over the past week in the spoiler and chapter threads wanking Zoro and his feat in Chapter 1009 to the Moon. It's been a bit unhealthy, and I should probably take a breather and calm down. However, that justifies taking a few days off, not the several weeks/months I intend.
Why I Feel a Break is Necessary
There's a certain current of resistance and downplay, that I found just mind breaking to engage with, and extrapolating this over the rest of the Rooftop fight, I just gave up. The prospect of going through this every week is disheartening.
I don't want to deal with what's currently happening.
I feel like the reactions to Zoro blocking Hakai from a large contingent of the community hasn't been:
"Oh my fucking God, Zoro stopped a finisher combination attack of two Yonkou, he must have top tier defence", but:
"These characters are stronger than Zoro, so they should be able to pull it off too".
Many people basically left Zoro wherever they had him in their headcanon, downplayed the feat as much as they could get away with and adjusted everyone else upwards.
The claim that Luffy could do it for example is insane.
Zoro ordered all the other 4 Supernova to run away:
Zoro clearly did not think the rest of the 4 Supernova combined could block Hakai.
The Yonkou were shocked out of their mind that Hakai was stopped:
The Yonkou did not think it was possible for even the 5 Supernova working together to block Hakai.
The feat Zoro pulled off where he held back the attack for a few seconds is a feat that neither Zoro nor the Rocks Duo believed the other Supernova working together could accomplish.
The implication is that even working together, Luffy + Kidd + Killer + Law get wiped out by Hakai without slowing it down enough to escape.
That is what the manga is showing, yet people want to argue that Luffy can?
Because?
Because they believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro? Because they've capped Zoro at a certain level and so whenever Zoro pulls off a feat, they don't raise his level, they downplay the hell out of the feat and assume everyone else can pull it off.
As I said elsewhere:
Earnestness
So I take powerscaling very seriously. I put a lot of effort into my engagement with the OP fandom here. Maybe not all of my participation is welcome, maybe tagging so many people is highly obnoxious, maybe my Zoro wank is stifling, maybe I'm "toxic".
Whatever other flaws I have, I'm generally earnest. The vast majority of the time, I try to be straightforward in my engagement (even though I do have my biases. I may pull a stunt once in a while, make the occasional troll post), but > 95% of my content in the One Piece section is my sincere beliefs.
Conclusions
This sheer stubbornness in the fandom regarding their preconceptions is just not something I feel like I'm willing to debate with.
If you're going to outright ignore the manga because it doesn't fit your headcanons, then I'm not participating.
Maybe I'll return to One Piece discussions after some months, perhaps when there's more context to go off of and folks have been able to better digest what happened, but for now, I'm done.
Hey, maybe I'm crazy: "You're overreacting", "this feat is inconsistent", "this is an outlier", "you're missing something very basic that others have seen". Those are all hypotheses that merit consideration. I can't say I've particularly given that the adequate consideration, but they are something that I'm aware of.
Either I'm wrong (in which case stepping back and seeing how well my position ages is advisable), or I'm right (in which case I currently cannot healthily engage with the fandom). Regardless of how things shake out, there's like a sheer gap in how things have been processed that I feel is currently insurmountable.
I also don't want to deal with the same pigheaded stubbornness every time Zoro gets a feat that shatters people's headcanons.
I don't really enjoy the Ws and Ls games either, so the trolling and countertrolling is not for me.
I think it would be best to return in several months, when the fandom has had time to process things. I might skip the Rooftop battle entirely, I'm not sure yet.
Addenda on Reconciliation
Aah, it's not people disagreeing with my takes that made me give up. I mean I've been debating One Piece on and off for 6 years, I'm used to disagreement. There's nothing fundamentally new about disagreement that makes me unwilling to continue. It wasn't that we didn't agree per se.
I don't want to rehash what I said earlier, and I didn't go over it in detail, but certain discussions I've had on here of recent, just really made me give up. It's not pettiness. I'm not trying to spite the community or anything.
I'm just overly invested in the fandom, and I take debating very seriously.
Discussing recent stuff with several people has been very, very unfulfilling. It was emotionally draining, and I guess I approached with the mindset, that: "even if we have different interpretations, personal biases and such, we are reading the same manga, so reconciliation is in theory possible". I strived for that reconciliation and to reach like a mutual understanding.
It felt like that was not possible for some members. That it didn't really matter what happened, they already had very strong preconceptions that they were unwilling to let go of.
Maybe it's because I've invested so much effort, time, energy and had such a genuine belief that we can reconcile. Maybe it's because I don't really believe in agreeing to disagree (I pause discussions for more evidence, but for people I engage with at length: "agree to disagree" is a foreign concept to me (exceptions are when I know someone has a firm agenda they wouldn't let go of, in which case I generally don't engage).
Like I genuinely do not believe that reasonable people should agree to disagree. I can't stress how core this is to my philosophy, but it generally is. In principle, reconciliation is possible. Sometimes we pause debates due to insufficient evidence. Sometimes we may shelve debates due to time and other constraints, but reconciliation of our beliefs are generally possible. That is a fundamental underlying principle of my world view.
I wouldn't say I had a mental breakdown or anything, but after a while I just gave up. It felt futile. I guess my core beliefs underpinning my engagement with this community (that reconciliation is possible among people engaging in good faith) were shattered in a very brutal fashion. It was mentally harrowing.
After going through this for a few days, I really, really, really do not want this experience again. I really don't want to have to deal with this again. Like this was just a very unpleasant experience for me. I cannot stress how much this has just been a painful experience to me.
This feeling that no matter what happens, no matter what evidence is presented, no matter what arguments are raised, that so, so and so are unwilling to change their mind. That reconciliation is not just in practice impossible, it's in theory impossible.
That was a mind breaking, extremely unpleasant experience. These last few days genuinely broke me.
Discussing a manga shouldn't be unpleasant. If every week is going to be like this, then I'll rather just sit out the Rooftop fight. I don't want to go through this again. It was soul crushing.
And because of how painful this entire experience has been, it's made me feel like I need a long breather from this community.
Whenever I return, I'll probably return to discussing One Piece with only a couple dozen people. I am not ready to let go of my belief that reconciliation should be possible, so I'll probably just be more selective with who I engage with in future.
"Stop taking things so seriously" is sage advice, but I wouldn't be putting so much effort into the fandom if I didn't take things seriously. If I was just playing around, I wouldn't go to the lengths I've been to. This isn't justification for my actions, but it is an explanation of "why".
Tl;Dr
I got the perception that many people have strong preconceptions about how strong Zoro is allowed to be, and that regardless of the feats Zoro accomplished, they were unwilling to let go of their preconceptions.
This made me feel like debating for Zoro was pointless, so I decided to pause it.
I asked @Bogard and @Pantheos for an Udon ban for six months (I'll probably extend it as needed). Until the ban goes into effect, I'll probably reply as needed.
Lmfao, @Cinera : Welcome to the One Piece Fandom.
For as long as I’ve been here, and undoubtedly longer, this fandom has always been the most unreasonable, toxic, illogical, small-minded, anti-intellectual, <<insert every other negative adjective you can think of>> fandom community that I have ever seen. This doesn’t describe everyone of course, I would not stick around if it were, and the core group of members I associate with and are friends with are great. To tag a few, @Owl Ki @Light D Lamperouge @Den_Den_Mushi @Jiihad @Mr. Anderson @Haoshoku @Beerbottle @Bogard @ShishioIsBack (sometimes), @HA001 , @LuthonTheDragDown , you yourself, etc etc etc...many others. Those core guys I associate with.
But the hundreds of thousands of online OP fans, and the majority of the current WorstGen population? Yeah, the above descriptors apply to them. This is the type of series where people bond so fiercely to a character or set of characters, that they would rather act like sentient gorillas to defend said characters than they would honestly concede any shortcomings of those characters. Give credit to Oda that he wrote characters that people bond to so fiercely, I guess.
Now I have two main things to say to you Cin:
1. If you want to take time off of WorstGen, I fully encourage you. This shit is irrelevant compared to the real world, and if you feel you need to take a step back for any reason, then I will never be the one to stop you. Even if you feel you just want to take a step back for your own mental health, take all the time you need. That said, and I say this to you as a friend:
2. This thread is the mother of overreaction. When I read this right here:
I’m not going to lie to you, I actually started laughing. Not because you take OP power scaling this seriously, I respect the passion and at times I do the same, even though I wish I didn’t lol.
It’s because when I read this, the first group of people I thought of, were the 70% Christian Majority in the United States who claim Christians are persecuted and Christianity is under attack when the government tells them they can’t discriminate against gay people. Or the white people who scream about white genocide when black people ask police to stop killing them.
Zoro is the most popular character in One Piece, worldwide and on WorstGen. Seriously the **** claimed the number one spot in more countries than Luffy did. On WorstGen, I think if you added up the combined members from every other fandom together, the Zoro fandom would still be larger than all of them combined. It is no exaggeration to say that the amount of people willing to show you support and positivity for your posts explaining why Zoro is as strong as he is, are overwhelming. Your personal tag list for Zoro power threads, is like 60% of WorstGen’s consistently active userbase, and all of those users consistently show you huge support.
To say that you are taking a months long break from WorstGen for the sole reason that a minority of users weren’t willing to skyrocket Zoro on their tier list just yet? I think you need to toughen up. Again, as your friend. I know we disagree on a lot but I do respect your takes, and you and Shishio have persuaded me on Zoro many times in the past. It was both of you who convinced me that Zoro > Luffy up until post WCI, and that’s not necessarily a popular opinion.
How do you think @Rosella.Fiamingo feels when 80% of the fan base calls his favorite character a meme on a chapter by chapter basis and refuses to acknowledge the few instances where Oda actually portrays her as a threat?
How do you think I feel when 70% of WorstGen users still think “the weakest dying Yonko two shot Akainu”?
How do you think @Chrono or @Inflamed Haki feel being like the only two people willing to get their shit kicked in by dozens of members regularly because they enjoy Sanji, who lets be real hasn’t done shit recently?
How did @5000 ng/dl or death react when 99% of WorstGen users told him Vergo was obviously using his left leg?
If you say you are only taking a break, because you’re frustrated that not every user on this forum was willing to be engulfed in the tidal wave that is the Zoro bandwagon? Well, again, take a break from WorstGen for whatever reason you desire, I fully support that, but you will get no sympathy from me on this.
Whatever your decision of course, I respect it, but I hope you won’t take a months log hiatus over something so....there’s no adjective I can leave here that won’t sound insulting and I don’t want that, so I’ll just end it here lol.
For as long as I’ve been here, and undoubtedly longer, this fandom has always been the most unreasonable, toxic, illogical, small-minded, anti-intellectual, <<insert every other negative adjective you can think of>> fandom community that I have ever seen. This doesn’t describe everyone of course, I would not stick around if it were, and the core group of members I associate with and are friends with are great. To tag a few, @Owl Ki @Light D Lamperouge @Den_Den_Mushi @Jiihad @Mr. Anderson @Haoshoku @Beerbottle @Bogard @ShishioIsBack (sometimes), @HA001 , @LuthonTheDragDown , you yourself, etc etc etc...many others. Those core guys I associate with.
But the hundreds of thousands of online OP fans, and the majority of the current WorstGen population? Yeah, the above descriptors apply to them. This is the type of series where people bond so fiercely to a character or set of characters, that they would rather act like sentient gorillas to defend said characters than they would honestly concede any shortcomings of those characters. Give credit to Oda that he wrote characters that people bond to so fiercely, I guess.
Now I have two main things to say to you Cin:
1. If you want to take time off of WorstGen, I fully encourage you. This shit is irrelevant compared to the real world, and if you feel you need to take a step back for any reason, then I will never be the one to stop you. Even if you feel you just want to take a step back for your own mental health, take all the time you need. That said, and I say this to you as a friend:
2. This thread is the mother of overreaction. When I read this right here:
I’m not going to lie to you, I actually started laughing. Not because you take OP power scaling this seriously, I respect the passion and at times I do the same, even though I wish I didn’t lol.
It’s because when I read this, the first group of people I thought of, were the 70% Christian Majority in the United States who claim Christians are persecuted and Christianity is under attack when the government tells them they can’t discriminate against gay people. Or the white people who scream about white genocide when black people ask police to stop killing them.
Zoro is the most popular character in One Piece, worldwide and on WorstGen. Seriously the **** claimed the number one spot in more countries than Luffy did. On WorstGen, I think if you added up the combined members from every other fandom together, the Zoro fandom would still be larger than all of them combined. It is no exaggeration to say that the amount of people willing to show you support and positivity for your posts explaining why Zoro is as strong as he is, are overwhelming. Your personal tag list for Zoro power threads, is like 60% of WorstGen’s consistently active userbase, and all of those users consistently show you huge support.
To say that you are taking a months long break from WorstGen for the sole reason that a minority of users weren’t willing to skyrocket Zoro on their tier list just yet? I think you need to toughen up. Again, as your friend. I know we disagree on a lot but I do respect your takes, and you and Shishio have persuaded me on Zoro many times in the past. It was both of you who convinced me that Zoro > Luffy up until post WCI, and that’s not necessarily a popular opinion.
How do you think @Rosella.Fiamingo feels when 80% of the fan base calls his favorite character a meme on a chapter by chapter basis and refuses to acknowledge the few instances where Oda actually portrays her as a threat?
How do you think I feel when 70% of WorstGen users still think “the weakest dying Yonko two shot Akainu”?
How do you think @Chrono or @Inflamed Haki feel being like the only two people willing to get their shit kicked in by dozens of members regularly because they enjoy Sanji, who lets be real hasn’t done shit recently?
How did @5000 ng/dl or death react when 99% of WorstGen users told him Vergo was obviously using his left leg?
If you say you are only taking a break, because you’re frustrated that not every user on this forum was willing to be engulfed in the tidal wave that is the Zoro bandwagon? Well, again, take a break from WorstGen for whatever reason you desire, I fully support that, but you will get no sympathy from me on this.
Whatever your decision of course, I respect it, but I hope you won’t take a months log hiatus over something so....there’s no adjective I can leave here that won’t sound insulting and I don’t want that, so I’ll just end it here lol.
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Damn @LuthonTheDragDown we didnt make the cut.
